| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1016.1 | L5/S400/Byrd/350T/SV | RAINBO::WEBER | | Tue Dec 13 1988 17:09 | 90 |
| L-5: This was the first carved-top, f-hole guitar, so all modern
archtops are an L5 derivative. There have been numerous changes
in detail since the first ones were designed under Lloyd Loar in
1924. Very early ones were 16" wide, changed to the current 17"
in mid-'30's, added venetian cutaway in 1939 (L-5P). Available standard
in both cut (L-5C) and non-cut versions until '54. Available with
set-in pickups (L-5 CES) in mid-'50's, Alnico or P-90 into '57,
humbuckers since then.
Construction has been pretty much the same since '39. The body is
17" x 3.375", with solid maple rims; solid, carved maple back; solid,
carved spruce top; 25.5" scale; ebony fretboard with 8 MOP block
markers; a flowerpot (sometimes called torch) headstock inlay; maple
neck; non-hinged, gold-plated tailpiece with silver inset (ebony
on newest production); multiple bound body, neck, pickguard. The
fretboard ends in a distinctive, heart-shaped, point. Headstock
size has been consistently small, similar to a Les Paul Custom.
During WWII, fretboards were rosewood. From '61 to '67, most CES
versions had florentine cutaways and from '64 through '67 had pressed,
rather than carved backs. Volutes on most necks from '71 through
'81. Until late '59, necks were two pieces of maple with walnut
spacer, then changed to three pieces maple with two spacers. Numerous
small changes throughout the years in: hardware;pickguard material
and mounting; neck size and shape; engraving, binding and inlay
detail. These changes make it easy to estimate date.
From '59 to '61, a thin-body (2.375") , 24.75" scale, X-braced version,
the L-5CT ("George Gobel") was available. Some L-5CEST's were also
made.
Many L-5C's have factory installed floating pickups. A number of
different pickups have been used, with the Johnny Smith and BJB
most prevalent. Modifying a '61 or later L-5C with either of these
pickups will not hurt its value. Gibson made at least one L-5C
w/ florentine cutaway and factory JS pickup.
L-5's are among the most versatile carved-tops made. The size makes
for a good compromise between playability and tone. CES models have
been used in rock, soul, country and blues playing as well as being
extremely popular jazz guitars. The acoustic L-5 defines the jazz
rhythm guitar sound. Prices run from $1500 for a mid-'40's non-cut
to $6000 for a L5CEST to $10k for an original '24 Loar. Average
price is $2200 to $3k.
************************************************************************
Super 400. Introduced in '34,this was Gibson's flagship guitar until
'71. Construction similar to L-5, with following differences: 18"
wide body, split-block fretboard inlay, larger headstock with
split-diamond front inlay (later used on Les Paul Custom) and added
rear inlay, even bigger tailpiece, and more binding. Detail changes
similar to L-5, including cutaway (S400P & S400C), pickups (S400
CES), neck construction. Also available with floating pickups. Earliest
S400's were X-braced with very small f-holes, which was soon changed
to parallel bracing with standard f-holes for increased volume.
A less ornate model, the Super 300, was not very popular.
Acoustic S400's are among the best-sounding archtops made. CES models
were extremely popular for jazz in the 60's. Kenny Burrell (my
own personal favorite guitarist of all time) almost always plays
one. Prices are similar to L-5's, with the S400P running about
$5k.
************************************************************************
The Byrdland, introduced in the mid-'50's, was based on an idea
from guitarists Billy Byrd and Hank Garland, for a thin-line L-5
CES with a narrow short-scale, 22-fret neck. That's just what it
is, with a 23.5" scale, 1.625" nut, and 2.25" thick body. These
follow L-5 variations, and have been very popular despite the IMO
awful neck. Ted Nugent once owned 19 of them. New ones sell for
$1.9k, vintage ones to $3k. A few have had standard L-5 necks and
would be worth $5k.
The ES-350T is a lower cost version of the Byrdland, with rosewood
fingerboard, chrome plating, pressed top, and plainer trim. These
run around $1.5k. A '78 version had a long scale neck--while not
valuable, these are great players and highly desirable.
************************************************************************
The Super V was introduced in the late '70's, and has an L-5 body
with a S400 neck and the fingers tailpiece introduced on the Johnny
Smith. The BJB model has a floating BJB pickup, the CES model the
usual set-in humbuckers.
These currently have the highest list price of any Gibson, at $4428.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.2 | Other L's, ES's, HR | RAINBO::WEBER | | Tue Dec 13 1988 17:12 | 48 |
| The success in the '30's of the L-5 spawned a host of similar, cheaper
models. Despite having less ornamentation, these were carved-top
guitars of very high quality. All had rosewood fretboards and bound
bodies and necks, with differing levels of trim. The most significant,
in order of increasing price, were: L-4, L-7, L-10, L-12. The L-4
has a 16.25" body, 24.75" scale and florentine cutaway, the rest
were 17", 25.5" scale, with venetian cutaway. L-4's and L-7's were
made until 1970, the others disappeared in the '40's. Current price
for a really clean L-4 is around $1k, for an L-7 $1.5k.
In the '40's a number of these models appeared with pickups, and
were dubbed the ES-150, ES-250, ES-300, and ES-350. The 350, which
was pretty much an electric L-7, mutated into the ES-5, which Gibson
called "The supreme electronic version of the L-5". The only thing
L-5ish about it was the size, since it had a laminated top, rosewood
fingerboard, thumbprint headstock inlay and different tailpiece.
It sported three pickups and 4 knobs, and soon turned into the infamous
ES-5 Switchmaster, with a 4-position selector switch & 6 knobs.
This had a rather short production life, from '55 to '60. ES-350's
and ES-5's are usually bargains at $1-$2k. Switchmasters are around
$2.5k.
************************************************************************
In 1949 Gibson introduced an electric based on the L-4, which was
the ES-175. Besides the built-in pickup, the only major difference
was the 175's laminated top. This became a workhorse guitar; almost
every archtop player has owned one at some time.The two pickup ES-175D
is still in production, but with mahogany back, sides and neck.
A thin version, the ES-175T was produced for a few years in the
late '70's. There is now an L-4CES, which has a carved spruce top,
mahogany back, sides and neck, goldplating, ebony fretboard and
L-5 tailpiece, which runs about $1250.
The Howard Roberts ('73-'85) is also based on the L-4C, with an
oval hole, pressed laminated top, and floating pickup. Standard,
Custom and Artist models with increasingly ornate trim. Gold plating,
abalone inlay and ebony fretboard on the Artist model. Originally
an Epiphone model, it features the vine headstock inlay first used
on high-end Epi's. This is Gibson's only long-scale guitar with
a 16.25" body. I think these are really underrated, being quite
versatile, good-sounding instruments. The mid-range control is actually
useful and provides variety with the single pickup. A two pickup
version of the HR Artist was available. Prices run $700-$1500. The
HR Fusion is related to these guitars in name only.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.3 | JS/Citation/KA | RAINBO::WEBER | | Tue Dec 13 1988 17:13 | 56 |
| Johnny Smith: 17 x 3.125", single Venetian cutaway. 1961-present.
Looking something like a small S400, these are actually quite
different, having an X-braced top that is carved slightly thicker
than most, a unique 25" scale length, a standard neck width of 1.75"
at the nut, and a square-cut fretboard end for better pickup
positioning.. The X-bracing/thick top/thin body produces a somewhat
more balanced tone with lower acoustic volume that goes well with
the standard floating Johnny Smith pickup, a small humbucker that
was designed expressly for this model and which has become one of
the most popular floating pickups made. Unlike the L-5 and S400,
the fingerboard extension is set into the top, increasing sustain
of notes played in the highest positions.
There are two models: the single pickup JS and the dual pickup JSD.
All controls and the jack are pickguard-mounted. Until '78, the
JS had an L-5 tailpiece with an ebony insert, which then changed
to the fingers tailpiece. The width of the JS fretboard has been
immune to the changes during the 60's, but there have been some
made with 1.6875" wide necks. The JS also missed being "voluted",
so from a player's perspective almost any year is good. Trim became
somewhat simpler in the '70's, but recent ones are more ornate.
There have been a number of custom ones with L-5 trim, L-5 bodies
and other "mix 'n match" features.
Despite having a fully acoustic design, the JS is most successful
as an electric. If an acoustic and electric instrument is required,
an L-5C w/JS or BJB pickup does a much better job acoustically,
and is almost as good electrically. Johnny Smith has consistently
played a single pickup model--these are preferable, since the bridge
pickup is sort of useless, but there are more JSD's around. Until
last year, a new JS was about as expensive as an L-5, but the current
selling price is almost $800 less, making the JS a real bargain
at $2k. Used ones run $2k to $3.5k.
The Citation was introduced in 1971 with a list price about double
that of an S400. Based on the JS, its features included 25.5"
scale, 5-piece neck with wide ebony spacers, fleur-de-lis inlay
on both sides of headstock, binding on both sides of the headstock
(including the volute!), cloud fretboard inlays, bound maple pickguard,
JS pickup, and loop tailpiece. Many of these had extremely curly
or quilted maple. There were probably less than 20 of these made.
Collector Akira Tsumura is hoarding a dozen, which has driven the
price to ??? Figure at least $10k. Still, cheaper than some '57
Strats.
The late '70's Kalamazoo Award had the highest list price of any
Gibson, at $5500. Another opulent JS variation, with abalone eagle
inlay on the headstock, bound maple pickguard and ebony tailpiece
insert; abalone block fretboard inlay; 25.5" scale; 5-piece maple/ebony
neck; single BJB pickup. Although these are as elaborate as Citations,
the price is still in the $5.5k range, mostly because there actually
are some available. Both these and Citations vary a lot in quality,
with poor ones being okay, but overpriced, and good ones being
incredible.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.4 | Kessel/Lopez/Farlow | RAINBO::WEBER | | Tue Dec 13 1988 17:15 | 46 |
| Barney Kessel: 17" x 3" double florentine cutaway, maple plywood
w/set in pickups, rosewood fingerboard, 25.5" scale, fancy pickguard.
Two models--Standard and Custom. Standard has chrome plating,
parallelogram neck inlay, thumbprint headstock inlay, mahogany neck.
Custom has gold plating, bow-tie neck inlay, eighth-note headstock
inlay, maple neck. 1961-1969. Standard finish cherry sunburst, blonde
and standard sunburst models exist. Kessel had a big fight with
Gibson and mostly plays his ES-350.
Earlier models have neck/body joint at 14th fret, later models join
at 17th. I think the earlier ones are much better both in sound
and stability--too much unsupported neck on the newer ones, and
many that I've seen really need a neck reset. Some early models
(Standard and Custom)have laminated spruce tops, which became
increasingly rare in later years.
These are some of the most variable of Gibson's archtops: good ones
are *really* good, bad ones are *really * bad. Most Customs have
skinny necks, but some early ones are wide. Current prices run
$1000-$1500, maybe $2k for a mint,Custom w/spruce top, curly maple
body & PAF's.
************************************************************************
Trini Lopez Custom. Similar to Kessel, with 24.5" scale, ebony
fretboard, diamond inlays,pickguard and f-holes, chrome plating,
Firebird style headstock and shorter scale. Cherry Sunburst . Really
rare, but not very valuable. 1964-1969. The much more common Trini
Lopez Standard is an ES-335 variant.
************************************************************************
Tal Farlow: Single venetian cutaway, 17 x 3", plywood maple body
w set-in pickups, rosewood fingerboard w/ cloud inlay, double
thumbprint headstock inlay, 25.5" scale, Chrome plating. Narrow
cutaway and circle of purfling around the selector switch gives
a very distinctive look. Standard finish "Viceroy Brown". 1962-1969
These have more collector's than player's appeal, since most have
the skinny necks. Prices should be around $2k-2.5K, but Mandolin
Bros is asking $4.5 for one. Be my guest. A friend of mine has
one of the new Tal Farlow prototypes, which looks exactly like an
ES-350 w/ bow-tie inlay. No surprise, since Tal has been mostly
playing a 350 since the '40's.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.5 | Many sad faces | DECWIN::KMCDONOUGH | | Tue Dec 13 1988 17:34 | 15 |
|
re: .2
| L-4's and L-7's were made until 1970, the others disappeared in the
| '40's. Current price for a really clean L-4 is around $1k, for an L-7
| $1.5k.
Wow!, $1K for an L-4? I sold a mid-60's L-4C in very nice shape in
1986 for MUCH less than that. At the time, I scanned the want ads and
music stores for quite a while to get an idea of its worth. There
wasn't exactly a big demand for a non-electric jazz guitar.
It was a nice guitar and I truly loved it. But $1K?
Kevin
|
| 1016.6 | Former ES-5 Switchmaster owner. | IDONT::MIDDLETON | | Tue Dec 13 1988 18:12 | 7 |
|
I owned an "infamouse ES-5 Switchmaster" at one time. Since it wasn't
as much fun to play as the Stromberg G-100 I later owned, I don't really
miss it, but it is truly amazing how the prices have increased over the
years. I'm afraid such instruments are way out of my league.
John
|
| 1016.7 | All it takes is $$$ | ANT::JACQUES | | Wed Dec 14 1988 08:59 | 21 |
| Danny,
I while back I recall you were trying to sell a half dozen or so
archtop guitars. From reading the notes file, I gather you have
(or at least had) a rather impressive collection of instruments
to say the least. What bank did you rob ??
I suppose if I secured a second mortgage on my house, I could get
at least a 1/2 dozen or so nice archtops, but realistically, I
would be happy with 1 or two nice ones.
How about Epiphones. I understand that Epiphone used to be an
autonomous company, unrelated to Gibson, and was known for fine
Arch-tops as well. Also DiAngelico, DiAquisto, Stromberg, etc.
Considering the high price of the Gibsons you mentioned, I would
think a custom made John DiAquisto might be a superior Alternative
to a vintage Gibson.
Mark Jacques
|
| 1016.8 | NSTAACA | RAINBO::WEBER | | Wed Dec 14 1988 09:52 | 37 |
| Mark:
Weber's 32nd law: There are *no* cheap good archtops!
Pre-Gibson Epi's run $1k -$2.5k for Deluxes and Emperors. A really
clean Emperor, if you can find one, won't be much cheaper than a
L-5 of comparable vintage.
A D'Aquisto New Yorker is $5,500 with a 2-year wait. Used ones are
in the same range. D'Angelico's are running $3k for junk to $15k
for a mint New Yorker. Strombergs will start at $3k these days.
I didn't mention that all the prices I gave are for extremely clean,
unmodified guitars in perfect playing condition. The archtop market
is much more sensitive to cosmetics than the Strat/LP markets, so
prices will be substantially lower for guitars with lots of wear.
Considering the amount of work and wood it takes to make an archtop,
they are still cheap compared to vintage solidbodies.
A list of my bargain picks for holiday gift-giving:
1970 or newer ES-175 $500-$750
1978 ES-350T $750-$1000
Any year Guild X-500 $500-$1000 ( I don't like these myself, but
they're not all that bad)
Later Model L-4 or L-7 in less than great condition: $750-$1200
Fender D'Aquisto Elite: OK Japanese made w/single PU for $600-$750
Howard Roberts Standard $600-$1000
Ibanez GB-10 $600-$750
Gibson L-4 CES new @ $1250
Despite the high prices for Gibsons, keep in mind that in 10 years
we could have this same chat and lament the days when you could
buy an L-5 CES for only $2500. Maybe even next year :-}.
Danny W
|
| 1016.9 | Smith's Uo | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Wed Dec 14 1988 12:39 | 5 |
| Oops. I should remember to keep checking Gibson's price lists. A
new Johnny Smith Double is now the same price as a new L-5CES.
So much for bargains.
Danny W
|
| 1016.10 | more questions !! | ANT::JACQUES | | Wed Dec 14 1988 13:32 | 44 |
| Some general questions:
What does the abreviation "BJB" in the term BJB pickup indicate??
Do any of these guitars have problems with feedback at high volume
levels ?? Is there any special amplification considerations to keep
in mind when using an Arch-top Jazz guitar with a pickup. I have
heard that Polytone amps are preferred by most jazz players. Obviously,
you wouldn't want to crank one through a Variac-modified Marshall
stack, but would you require any special speaker combination, power
rating, tone control configuration, etc. to get the best sound out
of them? Do you lose any of the subtle tonality qualities when using
reverbs, delays, chorus, etc. For recording purposes, would someone
be better off using a good microphone or the built-in pickups on
an Archtop ??
What do you think of people like Ted Nugent, Steve Howe, (the dude
from Stray cats) etc. using Arch-tops. Do they look ridiculous,
or is this considered acceptable to the Arch-top purists out there.
I recall seeing a Gibson archtop, which has a gold-top similar to
a Les Paul gold-top. The model escapes me, but it is included in
the book "American Guitars". Off hand, are you familiar with this
model ?? What is your opinion ??
Just for the sake of clarification, what does the florentine
cutaway look like, sharp or curved ?? The Venetian ??
Isn't the cutaway on the Tal Farlow really more like an F-style
mandolin than a guitar cut.
re. John DiAquisto, Doesn't he now offer a solid body guitar similar
to a Les Paul ?? How about Heritage Guitars ?? They have a few archtops
advertised in magazines. Have you checked them out ??
Interesting topic !! Thanks for taking the time to share all of
this info with us.
Do you know if there is a guitar museum somewhere in the US. I am
aware of the Country Music Hall of Fame collection, the Rock and
Roll hall of fame, the hard rock cafe collections, etc. (All of
which display instruments once owned by famous people) but have
never really heard of a guitar musium that just featured the
various models/manufacturers. How about conventions, shows, etc.
Mark Jacques
|
| 1016.11 | More answers | RAINBO::WEBER | | Wed Dec 14 1988 14:07 | 28 |
| Mark:
BJB is Bruce J Bolen who used to be Gibson's head of R&D, and who
is a great guitarist in his own right.
You bet feedback is a problem, and the better acoustic response
the guitar has, the more likely it is to feed back. Careful amp
placement, tone control adjustment and good string control all help,
but if you're going to play really loud, use a semi. Miking an archtop
is terrible-the true acoustic sound doesn't really come together
until a few feet in front of the soundboard. Anyway, a good acoustic
archtop is loud enough to be played unamped in a big band :-).
I like Fender amps. I'd bet more jazz guitar has been played through
a Twin than any other amp. My own Fender is too heavy for me to
carry anywhere, so I generally use a Polytone (this is the true
reason for its popularity). I personally like a 15" speaker in my
Fenders, but Polytones are bass heavy, so the Mini Brute II(12") is probably
the best choice. One good feature about the Polytone amps is their
sealed back, which really helps reduce feedback. (At an outdoor
party last year I made a Polytone stack with a Baby Brute on top
of a Mini Brute IV. It sounded great with a 355 and DOD 20/20).
Some players like thin line guitars for high-volume playing: Byrdlands,
ES-350T's, ES-125's have all been popular in rock. ES-125's are
cheap, too.
Danny W
|
| 1016.12 | Even more answers | RAINBO::WEBER | | Wed Dec 14 1988 14:18 | 22 |
| re:.10
The gold guitar is the ES-295, which is a 175 variant. These are
generally priced like 175's.
Florentine cutaways are sharp, Venetian are round, and no, the Farlow
is a narrow venetian cut with binding to make it look like a scroll,
but it isn't anything like an F-5.
*Jimmy* D'Aquisto used to make a carved-top, Les Paul size guitar.
Borys has a similar model, the B-222, which is fabulous--outstanding
sound for a small guitar, and very playable.
Heritage guitars are well worth their price. I have one of their
Golden Eagle models, which is copied after the Kalamazoo Award.These
guys used to be Gibson's custom shop, so they know how to build
archtops, but I'm not that thrilled by their styling. I've got it
for sale--$1250 will do it (Current list $2600).
Whew! Well I'm glad someone read all that verbiage.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.13 | 3/4 size gibsons? | ROLL::BEFUMO | I chase the winds of a prism ship | Thu Dec 15 1988 07:49 | 11 |
| I once owned a little ES-140 3/4 Gibson. It had a body sort of
like a hollow les-paul, but a wide, 3/4-scale neck, and a single
black "soapbar" pickup. Was really nice to play & sounded great
at low to moderate volumes, but you couldn't really crank it up,
which was what I was into then (still am, come to think of it).
I have no idea of it's vintage, but it looked kinda like early 60s.
Anybody had any experience with these? I also came across a late-60s
ES-125 3/4, which was almost the same, except it had no cutaway.
Looked real cute, but reaching the upper frets was difficult.
joe
|
| 1016.14 | misconceptions are meant to be broken ! | ANT::JACQUES | | Thu Dec 15 1988 08:45 | 10 |
| I was looking through my copy of "The Gibson Guitar, from 1950"
last night, and found the answer to my question about the Tal
Farlow cutaway. I had the misconception that the cutaway was curled,
and always wondered how they could work the wood into that radical
of a curl, but now I realize it's just binding, nice effect though.
Please define the word "Volute", is that the truss-rod adjustment
cover ?
Mark
|
| 1016.15 | Farlow/Volute/140 | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Thu Dec 15 1988 09:28 | 31 |
| Re: .14
Yes, the Farlow is a neat visual trick--you'd be amazed how many
people have told me they saw, played or even owned one, and claim
its a real scroll. Even dealers have said this.
A volute is the ugly little protrusion behind the headstock, above
the nut, that Norlin made Gibson start putting on most of their
guitars in the early '70's in a misguided effort to reduce warranty
costs. The idea was to reinforce the weak spot in the headstock
behind the truss rod adjustment cavity. It doesn't help, and many
players (especially me ) find it aesthetically offensive. Gibson
stopped using them in the "80's (I'm intentionally vague here, since
the changes were not implemented all at once.
Many archtops had volutes during this period, but not all. I've
seen '76 L-5C's both with and without.
BTW, on a Banjo, this is often called a handstop.
Mark, enjoy the pictures in Ian Bishop's book(s), but please ignore
the text!. These are among the worst researched books ever published
on Gibson Guitars and they are full of inaccuracies.
re: .13
Es -140's and 125's were available in both full and 3/4 size. The
140T3/4 would have been a great, Les Paul size jazz guitar, if it
didn't have a 22.5" neck. These are currently around $500-$600.
Danny W
|
| 1016.16 | wow! | VIDEO::BUSENBARK | | Thu Dec 15 1988 14:11 | 11 |
| Thank's Danny,
Great information and history! and it leaves you wanting more! BTW
I've been successful in using an ES175 in a large Combo situation for
specific types of music and it can be done. The tone and cleanliness
is worth the minimal hassle. I really believe everything has it's place.
Since this is an Archtop note what I'd like to see is more info
on the lesser known builders(at least to me) like Bory's,Stromberg's,
D'Angelico's etc...Or is it a case of total custom built to spec.
It would even be nice to opinionate more and get more info on
tone differences and quality.
|
| 1016.17 | High End ES Series | FTMUDG::HENDERSON | Fun with Flesh! | Thu Dec 15 1988 14:40 | 23 |
| I have several Gibson archtops from the sixties. They include
the ES-120T, ES-125T, ES-125, and a ES-125TDC. I believe these were
considered student guitars when they came out.
ES-120T This was a thin line archtop similar to the 125 except
for a art deco pickguard that contained the electronics. Had the
thin black pickup and a tobacco sunburst.
ES-125T Thin line archtop with electronic on the sound board,
black soap bar with exposed poles, single pickup, cherry sunburst.
ES-125 Deep rail archtop with the same electronic as the 125T.
ES-125TDC This is a 125 witha cut away, two 125 pickups, and
is a thin line. Tobacco sunburst.
I love playing about with these things, they have a sound that
is all their own. My main complaint would be the tendency for the
bridge to move around. This is not the kind of guitar that lends
itself to screaming leads but for rhythm they have a real sweet
sound.
DonH
|
| 1016.18 | other makers | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Fri Dec 16 1988 12:17 | 69 |
| I had sorta hoped to keep this mostly Gibson, but whenever archtops
are discussed, it's hard not to touch on other brands.
Elmer Stromberg was a Boston luthier who basically made fancy versions
of Epiphones and John D'Angelico was a NY luthier who made fancy
versions of Gibsons. While this is oversimplified, Epi in the '30's
had a design philosophy of extreme loudness at the cost of tone,
while Gibson used a more balanced approach, and these two small
shops expanded on each of those themes.
Stromberg made 640 guitars. His top model, The Master 400 at 19"
set the all-time record for size and volume. I can barely get my
arm over one, which is just as well, since a nice one recently traded
for $15k. He also made plainer (and smaller) models--the Master
300, Deluxe, G-1, G-3 and G-100. I recently had an opportunity to
play a lovely '40's Deluxe that was one of the best playing and
sounding acoustics I've ever touched. I hated to put it down, but
at $12,500......Anyway, Elmer's guitars have a single brace, like
half an X-brace, that seems to be the secret behind their loudness.
D'Angelico's originally came in four basic models: Style B, Style
A, Excel and New Yorker. The first two were dropped in the '40's.
The New Yorker was based on the Gibson Super 400, the Excel on
the L-5. Total production from the thirties to the early '60's was
1164 guitars of all models. Most of these were X-braced. Current
prices are very high, from $3k for a Style A to $15k for some New
Yorkers. A 17" New Yorker that Johnny Smith had made in the early
'50's became the model for the Gibson Johnny Smith. Johnny just
sold it to a California collector for mucho bucks.
Jimmy D'Aquisto was John's apprentice. When John died in '64, Jimmy
continued building archtops. His first efforts were quite similar
to D'Angelico, but evolved into a quite distinctive style. I think
Jimmy knows more about building carved top guitars than any other
person alive--perhaps ever. His best are the best, period. They
are also quite expensive, with some of his early efforts around
$10k. A new New Yorker will be at least $5.5k, and plan on waiting
a few years for it. Jimmy has also lent his name to guitars made
by other companies, probably unwisely. The most recent was Fender,
who has made two models of laminated electrics, and one limited
( <25) edition full acoustic carvedtop. These are okay, but they
ain't D'Aquistos.
Burlington Vermont luthier Roger Borys is a disciple of D'Aquisto.
He and Chip Wilson build very nice archtops, with the 16" laminated
maple B-120 being a standout. Larry Coryell and Emily Remler both
play B-120's. Some of Borys' other models are the B-222 Jazz Solid,
The B-420 17" carvedtop, and the B-324 semisolid. The B-222 is similar
to the Guild Nightbird, but *much* better. Their prices range from
$1200 to $3000 depending on model and how fancy you want them, and
are mostly built to order. Early Borys guitars suffered from less
than elegant headstock design, but that has been improved over the
last few years at the urging of some of their customers. If you
have the current B-420 brochure and look very carefully at the photo
of the headstock inlay , you'll see the initials DRW. Guess who?
Bob Benedetto in Clearwater Fla. is another modern builder of
outstanding guitars. His top line has an 18" Supreme and 17" Cremona.
These are currently in the $4500 range. Bob's woodwork is among
the best I've seen and his guitars are very fancy and play extremely
well, but I find them to have a little thinner, less dynamic sound
than I like.
There are currently more builders of fine archtops than at any other
time in history. Some other US luthiers include Carl Barney, Steve
Grimes, John Monteleone, Aaron Cowles, and Santa Cruz.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.19 | | BMT::COMAROW | Subway Series in 89 | Fri Dec 16 1988 20:45 | 52 |
| > Elmer Stromberg was a Boston luthier who basically made fancy versions
> of Epiphones and John D'Angelico was a NY luthier who made fancy
> versions of Gibsons. While this is oversimplified, Epi in the '30's
> had a design philosophy of extreme loudness at the cost of tone,
> while Gibson used a more balanced approach, and these two small
> shops expanded on each of those themes.
Actually, John D'Angelico was a maker in the style of the
Guinarias(SP). While the Stratavarias tradition was one based on
numbers, as Stratavarios, a nobleman, always had great wood.
Guinarias lived a more "interesting" life, and had to work with
varieties of wood, and developed the art of carving while taping on the
wood, so no instruments are ever cut the same. This is the tradition
of D'Angelico and D'Aquisto.
D'Aquisto's mother came to D'Angelico and asked him to teach him
how to earn a living, since he didn't read so well. They developed
a great relationship. After D'Angelico died, D'Aquisto continued
to follow D'Angelico's models, making the New Yorker and the smaller
Excel. However, he developed his own ideas, and continues to explore
the art and philosophy.
In the late 70s D'Aquisto took an apprentice, Richie Gordon. It did
not work out, Richie (who recently interviewed for a Digital Marketing
position BTW) is now a marketing person for Synergy Oil, and remains
good friends with D'Aquisto. He gave Richie and Pia Gordon a 7 string
solid body as a wedding gift.
Can you belive that Richie gave up that opportunity, for a simple
matter like earning a living?
It's tragic that the greatest living line of instrument makers will not
pass on their knowledge.
Jimmy D'Aquisto is an innovator, and is planning on building a number
of innovative instruments, including a classical guitar. I had
a prototype Ovation, (it was interesting watching Jimmy look that
thing over).
He will do fret jobs on guitars he likes, if he likes you,
and will charge a reasonable price, but will not do any other work.
Jimmy is a fine man, a philosopher, suffers from headaches, that more
than a few people have taken advantage of. A down to earth craftsman,
works in his undershirt and is an excellent handball player.
I've played Strombergs, Gibsons, old Epiphones, even Richard Stanly's
guitars, but nothing compares to a D'Angelico or a D'Aquisto.
|
| 1016.20 | Thanks for this note. | THESIS::JOHNSON | | Tue Dec 20 1988 11:14 | 9 |
| Danny Weber,
Thanks much for this note.
You sure do know an awful lot about arc top guitars.
HOW do you get this information?
bob j
|
| 1016.21 | how I spent my youth | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Tue Dec 20 1988 14:10 | 46 |
| Re: .20
Bob:
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. I suspect your question was rhetorical,
but I'll answer it anyway. Just like my guitar playing, all this
stuff is self-taught. I bought my first arch-top thirty years ago,
and I have paid close attention to what's been going on ever
since--not just in archtops, but all facets of guitar except classical.
I have owned virtually every US made archtop model at one time
or another, as well as most semi's and a number of solids. I have
read every book published on the subject--unfortunately these are
more often wrong than right, but I've learned enough to know the
difference.
When vintage guitar collecting first got serious in the late '60's,
I started making contacts with a number of knowledgeable people
who've helped fill in the blanks. I currently get almost 50 price
lists and newsletters from dealers and collectors around the US.
I also have every Gibson, Fender, Rick, Gretsch, Martin, Guild,
Ibanez, Ovation, Carvin, & Yamaha catalog published since 1958.
Even some of these are wrong, since production didn't always agree
with the catalogs. I'm also a charter subscriber to GP, Frets, GW
and have every issue of these, though again, there's often more
wrong than right.
One area where I'm far more knowledgeable than most dealers is in
post-'69 instruments, because the dealers remained focused on vintage
instruments, forgetting that today's "junk" is tomorrow's old classic.
For example, there was a two-year period when Gibson made some of
its finest carvedtops ever, and most vintage dealers slept right
through it. These guitars are priced the same as most '70's guitars,
but they are far better. No, I won't tell you what years, but it
should be fairly obvious to anyone who's followed Gibson closely.
Anyway, the short answer is "start thirty years ago"
Danny W.
PS: Bob, assuming your ES-295 (?) still has its original P-90's,
you can probably get the sound you want by having humbuckers installed.
This will lower the value, but since it's already been refinished,
it's only worth $750 or so to begin with. You might want to sell
it and buy an ES-175 with humbuckers.
|
| 1016.22 | Still < some Strats | RAINBO::WEBER | | Thu Jan 05 1989 14:13 | 7 |
| A friend just ordered a New Yorker from Jimmy D'Aquisto. The price
he was quoted is $10,000, thirty-month delivery and $2k down. Fed
Ex & insurance will be extra, but the case is included.
Less than a year ago, the price for this guitar was $5.5k!
Danny W
|
| 1016.23 | Trini Lopez Special beats an ES-335 | ELWOOD::NORCOTT | Wakarimasu ka? | Fri Jan 20 1989 16:07 | 25 |
| > ************************************************************************
> Trini Lopez Custom. Similar to Kessel, with 24.5" scale, ebony
> fretboard, diamond inlays,pickguard and f-holes, chrome plating,
> Firebird style headstock and shorter scale. Cherry Sunburst . Really
> rare, but not very valuable. 1964-1969. The much more common Trini
> Lopez Standard is an ES-335 variant.
>
> ************************************************************************
I have a 1964 Trini Lopez Special guitar. "ES-335 variant", while
technically correct, does not do this guitar justice. It is a much
nicer sounding and fancier guitar than an ES-335.
Mine is bright cherry red with white binding. It has Firebird-style
head stock, PINK Brazilian rosewood fingerboard (way better than
a 335 already), with white binding, diamond-shaped abalone fret
markers, diamond-shaped, white bound f-holes, regular ES-335 scale,
and factory Bigsby tremelo which contrary to popular belief
(or maybe just my guitar) does not go out of tune.
I previously had a 1963 tobacco brown (not sunburst) ES-335, and the
Trini Lopez sounds, plays and looks better.
Bill Norcott
|
| 1016.24 | Btu it's still a semi | RAINBO::WEBER | | Fri Jan 20 1989 17:23 | 9 |
| No argument that the Trini Lopez is fancier, but I was only pointing
out that the Standard is a semi, not a hollow-body archtop.
Despite being fancier, few collectors think they are better than
335's, in fact, they usually sell for less than the same year 335.
None of the one's I've seen have had better wood, sound or feel
than comparable 335's, so yours must be especially nice.
Danny W
|
| 1016.25 | Collector value not the same as quality | ELWOOD::NORCOTT | Wakarimasu ka? | Fri Jan 20 1989 17:46 | 33 |
| > Despite being fancier, few collectors think they are better than
> 335's, in fact, they usually sell for less than the same year 335.
> None of the one's I've seen have had better wood, sound or feel
> than comparable 335's, so yours must be especially nice.
>
> Danny W
An ES-345 sells for less than the same year ES-335 too, but I feel the 345
is also a better guitar than the 335, and gets about 10 times as many
different sounds.
Popular demand for certain models has a stronger effect on price than
empirical "quality". They certainly sold a lot more 335's in their
day than either the 345 or especially the Trini Lopez. Sometimes,
rare equates with obscure so the demand is less; a lot of people have
hardly heard of or seen a Trini Lopez.
Also, Trini is such a wanker that a lot of people would not want a guitar with
his name on it no matter how good it is. It certainly doesn't have the
star endorsement of the 335 or even the 345.
It does however, have the rarer and more beautiful pink rosewood, which
I have never seen on the 335.
The 335 is a great guitar, I have owned them, as well as the 345 (I have
two 1963's) and the Trini Lopez. I would never knock them. But I think
if you compare the guitars side by side and compare the prices they are
asking for them, the Trini Lopez is the better bargain.
Bill Norcott
|
| 1016.26 | Fancy not same as quality either | RAINBO::WEBER | | Mon Jan 23 1989 09:23 | 28 |
| re: .25
You're right about collector's value not being the same as quality,
but neither is fanciness. You're also right about Trini Lopez not
being the kind of name one associates with great guitars.
One of the reasons for the relative low esteem usually placed on
these guitars is that most have the incredible shrinking neck. If
yours is wider than 1-9/16", hang on to it.
Another reason it is not sought after is the six-in-line headstock,
which many collector's consider inappropriate on this style of guitar.
I am in complete agreement over the relative worth of 335's & 345's.
My own semi's are mostly 355's, which I like because of the ebony
fingerboards and bound f-holes (post-'66), and which are very
undervalued right now
. But the prices for these guitars has been rising, and a really
nice '59 355 is well into the $2000 range, so people are finally
catching on.
I also have to disagree with your "obscure" observation. White
Penguins and Citations are pretty obscure, too. Any Gibson collector
knows all about the Trini Lopez models--he probably just doesn't
want one
Danny W
|
| 1016.27 | Two L-5C's | RAINBO::WEBER | | Tue Mar 07 1989 17:14 | 131 |
| "They don't make them like they used to". This cry is often heard
from guitar players, collectors, and especially vintage dealers.
As a longtime Gibson archtop player, I've had an opportunity to
test that theory.
The two guitars I've selected for comparison are a 1958 and a 1987
L-5C. The older guitar was described by a well-known authority on
Gibson carved-top guitars as a particularly fine example of a vintage
L-5C. The newer is marked "Custom Shop Edition", primarily because
acoustic archtops are no longer catalogued, and is perhaps the only
'87 L-5C in existence. My comparison is to see if there are any
differences in materials or workmanship that would make one a higher
quality instrument than the other.
Some of the most obvious differences are at the headstocks. The
overlay on the '59 is Holly, dyed black, while the '87 has black
plastic. Since the logo on the newer on is chemically cut and and
inserted into a die-cut space, it has a much cleaner look to it.
The older logo is saw-cut, which leaves the "b" and "o" open at
the top, a detail which charms collectors, but is of no practical
significance; it just looks different. The grain of the wood overlay
is visible, producing a more interesting texture than the plastic
one.
The abalone flowerpot inlay on the newer guitar is delicately done,
with fine detail. By comparison, the mother-of-pearl inlay on the
older one is quite coarse and crude looking when seen close up,
though striking at a distance. The newer guitar is the clear winner
here.
The necks on both guitars are the same width, and the fingerboards
appear similar although the string spacing is slightly narrower
on the '87 model because of thicker binding. Both have mother-of-pearl
block inlay starting at the first fret, with the newer one having
much fancier pearl. The shape of the back of the neck on the '59
is rounder, and noticeably thicker at the nut, while the heel on
the newer one is slightly bulkier. Both are very comfortable and
easy to play, but the newer one has square edges on the neck binding
that makes it a little less sensuous than the older one.
The construction of the two necks is different, the '59 is
three-piece, the '87 five-piece. This gives the necks a different
look from the back, but both seem equally stable. The neck of the
newer one has a very attractive curl figure, while the older one
has only a mild curl. Interestingly enough, the newer one has sunburst
curly grain visible on the rear of the peghead, rather than the
black finish traditionally applied.
Both guitars have excellent body woods. The tops are very tight,
straight-grained spruce with a nice silk pattern. The newer one
has the top grain reversed, with the tighter grain towards the edges.
The sides of both are nicely curly maple, with the older one having
a tighter and deeper pattern than the newer one. The backs are
highly-figured, book-leafed maple, quilted on the newer one,
tiger-striped on the older one. The interior work on both is of
the same high quality. The body binding is similar on both instruments.
The finish on each of these guitars is beautifully applied and
perfectly rubbed out. The older one has a slightly softer look that
may be due to twenty-nine years of TLC or may be a difference in
the original finish. To be fair, I have not seen a modern Gibson
sunburst that has the nearly perfect blend of deep brown, red and
gold that this guitar has, and the newer one looks somewhat monochrome
in comparison.
The pickguards, or fingerrests, as Gibson calls them, are both of
"tortoiseshell" plastic, but the newer one is a more translucent
and attractive material. The pickguard bindings are of similar quality,
with a slightly different pattern. The mounting method for both
is the classic threaded rod arrangement, which is an improvement
over the simple bent bracket Gibson started using in the early
seventies. The older one has a hidden pin into the side of the neck
for support, while the new one uses a screw through the pickguard
into the top. The older one wins here.
The bridges are completely different. The '59 has a plain rosewood
saddle and base while the '87 has an ebony saddle and base, the
latter inlaid with mother- of-pearl. I think the newer bridge is
of much higher quality; however, ebony bridges were also used in
the fifties.
The tuners on the newer guitar are reproductions of the massive
Kluson Sealfasts used on the '59, but they work much better. The
difference in tuning ease with the heavy-gauge strings used on these
guitars is substantial, but both hold tune equally well.
The tailpieces have the same metal base, with the standard silver
insert on the '59 and an ebony and pearl insert on the '87. While
of high quality, this new insert does not look as nice as the older
one. Another difference is the absence of the vari-tone tension
adjuster on the newer guitar. I doubt that anyone would miss it.
The strap button on the '59 model is white plastic that looks rather
cheap and out of place against the gold of the tailpiece. The round
metal button on the newer one looks much better.
Comparing the sound of these two instruments is especially interesting,
since the '59 has Gibson's standard tone bars, while the '87 has
X-bracing similar to that used in the 30's. The '59 has a typical
L-5 brash, loud sound, while the '87 is more resonant and has more
sustain. I prefer the sound of the '59, which seems closer to the
archtop spirit.
Finally we come to the cases. This is a difficult comparison to
make. The older case is clad in a very attractive, brown leather
covering, and is of heavier construction than the newer, black
tolex-covered one. Unfortunately, the hardware on the older one
is very flimsy, with only one safety latch. The remaining latches
can easily open by themselves, so the case does not give one a very
secure feeling when carrying this valuable guitar. My vote here
would be for a case with the strength and looks of the older and
the rugged hardware of the newer.
So what can be concluded from all this? Both guitars are outstanding
examples of the carved-top maker's art, both look, feel, play, and
sound terrific. Except for the slight playing wear on the '59, I
doubt that anybody not familiar with the history of Gibson's
specification changes could tell which was older. If anything, the
better inlay, bridge and tuners on the '87 model give it the edge
in workmanship and materials. Since I am only comparing one sample
from each era, I won't claim that the average modern Gibson carved-top
guitar is as good as the average '50's guitar, but in this particular
example, they do make them like they used to.
Despite this, there is something about the '59 that makes me enjoy
playing it more than the '87. I think the tone, feel of the neck,
and overall look of the guitar combine to give it a vintage appeal
that is lacking in the newer guitar.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.28 | Jonny Smith rumours | RAINBO::WEBER | | Wed Jul 26 1989 16:45 | 13 |
| A generally reliable source told me that after Gibson finishes the
current run of 10 Johnny Smiths, they will continue to build a similar
guitar with Chet Atkins name on it. He also said that Johnny 's switch
to Heritage was strictly business--Johnny wanted Gibson to build 50
JS's next year and Gibson would only promise 25. I would expect Gibson
Johnny Smith prices to take a huge jump after this transpires.
My friend, a knowledgable player and collector of vintage archtops also
told me that he just bought himself a brand new L-5 CESN because it's
the best new archtop he's seen in years from anyone.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.29 | Gibo questions | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Tue Aug 15 1989 12:00 | 7 |
|
Two questions ...
1. Does Gibson still make Super 400's ??
2. What is an ES-330??
Phil
|
| 1016.30 | answers | RAINBO::WEBER | | Tue Aug 15 1989 15:05 | 7 |
| re: -.1 Super 400 CES models are still on the pricelist at $4k. Gibson
has not shipped any recently, but is supposed to before the end of the
year. The Super 400C is custom order only.
For details on the ES-330, see 1132.xx.
Danny W
|
| 1016.31 | That damn rumbling! | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Thu Aug 17 1989 13:48 | 13 |
|
I have a maintenance question about my L-5CES. Playing certain chords
seems to cause a rumbling from inside the bridge pickup housing. It seems
like the pickup, or something near it is vibrating. I play the
guitar acoustically for practice, so this rumbling irritates me.
I don't see any screws that can be tightened outside that would
help. Anyone have this problem who could tell me what to look for
when I open the pickup housing (I really dred having to do this)??
Phil (nervously_waiting_for_my_S400C)
|
| 1016.32 | rattle and hum | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Thu Aug 17 1989 17:09 | 27 |
| Before you field strip your pickups, there are lots of things to check.
While it is possible for it to be something inside the pickup, it is
much more likely to be the pickup itself or the wiring or the
tailpiece.
To find the source, play the offending note or chord while pressing or
holding (in turn) each pickup cover, the bridge, the strings behind the
bridge, the tailpiece, the pickguard, the controls, etc. You may need
to have someone help you. Try adjusting the pickup height. Reach into
the f-holes and gently re-arrange the wiring-be sure it is not pressing
against the top. Touch the braces-sometimes they unglue themselves or
crack (this will mean a trip to the repair shop). Press the pickups
from inside the f-holes. When you find something that changes the noise
or makes it stop, try moving , tightening, or shimming it.
If you are still convinced it is inside the pickup, remove the four
screws from the corners of the pickup surrounds and carefully lift the
pickup off the top and see if the problem goes away. If the noise is
from inside the pickup, you might consider just replacing it rather
than spending the time unsoldering and resoldering the cover.
So many things can rattle on an archtop, it's amazing they can be
played at all. Guitars with floating pickups are even worse than CES
models, so expect to do it again when your S400C shows up :-) .
Danny W.
|
| 1016.33 | Hope i find it on the first try! | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Thu Aug 17 1989 17:37 | 10 |
|
Hmmm... The only thing I checked so far was the area around the
pickups. Looks like I have a lot of fiddling around to do.
I better get it done before the S400C comes, or I might be twice
as irritated! "It's amazing they can be played at all", does that
mean that I should expect a lifetime of babying my instruments!?!
Thanks Danny
Phil
|
| 1016.34 | | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Mon Aug 21 1989 12:44 | 9 |
|
Well, it seems that the pickup itself is vibrating against the plastic
border that suurounds the pickup. So, the pickup is moving around
I guess. What do you tighten to fix that??. Adjust the height???
Some guy told me to wedge a small object between the pickup and
the plastic piece (like a piece of a matchbook cover). I tried it, and
helps but that really alters the sound acoustically.
phil
|
| 1016.35 | new springs...? | VIDEO::BUSENBARK | | Mon Aug 21 1989 12:51 | 6 |
| Maybe changing the spring which holds the pickup stationary
when it is being adjusted up or down may make it less prone to
contacting the ring or vibrating?
Rick
|
| 1016.36 | Easy to fix pickup rattles | RAINBO::WEBER | | Wed Aug 23 1989 11:15 | 15 |
| Adjust the pickup height slightly will often cure this problem. A very
small piece of foam might help, and should not effect the acoustic tone.
Sometimes, just pressing the pickup away from the surround will fix it.
Another possibility is to loosen tthe surround, and reinstall in in a
slightly different position.
I usually just whack'em a few times til they shut up. Seriously, this
should be easy to fix. I usually never have to do mre than lean on them
hard to fix this type of problem
As an aside, Phil--CES models do not make good acoustic guitars, and
hardware rattles show up that would never be a problem when playing
amplified. That's why they make models without pickups.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.37 | Just pushing it around works... | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Wed Aug 23 1989 12:07 | 12 |
|
Yep. Just pushing on the pickup makes a difference, the rattle is
pretty much gone. Actually, I rarely practice with an amplifier,
even when playing my ES-335. I just don't need the amplified sound,
so I play the CES that way as well.
By the way, I got the S400C, played it for about 20 minutes and
Fed. Expressed it back to Lloyd. Definately not worth that kind
of money, (the Heritage Gold Eagle was much more in line, in terms of
quality-money).
Phil (now_nervously_awaiting_my_2.8 !!!)
|
| 1016.38 | Not as advertised | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Thu Aug 24 1989 16:50 | 32 |
| George Gruhn has a Gibson Howard Roberts Artist on his current list.
These are nice instruments and reasonably rare, so I called about it.
George wasn't in, so I spoke to someone else about it. We were doing
fine until I asked about the gold plating--he said it was chrome
plated. This set off my alarm bells, so I asked about the
fingerboard-rosewood, not ebony; the inlay-pearl, not abalone; the
tailpiece insert-plastic, not ebony. I told him he was describing an HR
Custom, he said the *label* said HR Artist, so that's what it must be.
This underlines a few points I've made before:
1. Gibson often mislabels their instruments. I've seen many 335 labels in
355's and "CES" labels in "C's".
2. Items that are easily swapped often are: truss-rod covers, labels,
tailpieces, bridges, pickguards, knobs and pickups are frequently
changed by owners, repairpersons and dishonest dealers (GG is *not* in
this category).
3. Even knowledgeable dealers tend to be more familiar with vintage
(pre-'69) instruments than modern ones. The salesman tried to tell me
that they "never made them that way", despite the fact that I've owned
two of them and have seen two more, not including the two that have
been pictured in Gibson catalogs
4. The only protection is knowledge.
This guitar is listed at $1000, which is okay for a really clean HR
Custom, so I don't think it would be a rip-off if someone bought it,
but the recipient might be surprised after opening the shipping carton.
Danny W
|
| 1016.39 | Nothing like getting what you pay for!! | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Thu Aug 24 1989 18:03 | 10 |
|
>>but the recipient might be surprised after opening the shipping carton.
Or the customer might be really angry (like myself, for instance).
Knowledge. Agreed. It became clear early on in my search for an
archtop how little many dealers know about the merchandise they
sell.
Phil
|
| 1016.40 | problem fixed | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Tue Aug 29 1989 09:28 | 8 |
| re: last couple
Gruhn's newest price list has the guitar correctly described. I don't
know if this was in response to my call or just that someone
knowledgable actually looked at the guitar. As I said, George is not
dishonest.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.41 | Tsumura Book, well worth the cost | ANT::JACQUES | | Wed Aug 30 1989 10:15 | 13 |
| I just recieved two new books last night which I ordered from
Stewart-Mac. First of all the essential "Tsumura Collection"
and the "Tube Amp Book II" by Aspen Pittman.
The Tsumura book is incredible, especially the color photo showing
a livingroom with wooden guitar racks full of arch-tops. This is
apparently the closest thing to "Guitar Nirvana" possible.
If I am lucky, I may someday own ONE of these fabulous archtop
guitars, but to see dozens in one place is mind boggling.
Mark
|
| 1016.42 | just go for it... | VIDEO::BUSENBARK | | Thu Aug 31 1989 09:30 | 6 |
| C mon... Mark,quit slobbering and just go buy an archtop for
youself. You don't know what your missing.... There are plenty
of used one's around....
Rick
|
| 1016.43 | | ANT::JACQUES | | Fri Sep 01 1989 11:54 | 17 |
| Rick,
I have made a concious decision that I have enough electronic
musical equipment to take care of all my needs. In fact, I have
so much stuff, I am considering having a sale. I want to buy some
new instruments. I definately need a bass, for capturing ideas
on my multi-tracker. Beyond that, I am seriously considering an
archtop.
If I do get one, it will most likely be a Gibson, but I am not
sure which model Gibson I would choose. I feel the more versatile
models are the ones with a cutaway, and two dual coil humbuckers.
I guess I should re-read the original text of this note for ideas.
Mark
|
| 1016.44 | There is great info in this note | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Fri Sep 01 1989 14:47 | 36 |
|
I just talked to someone at Gibson. For the hell of it, I asked
about whether Gibson was making Super400's anymore since they are
still on the price list ($4219!!). She told me that they are not
making Super 400's now, but may in the next few years. She said
they have to redesign the equipment and method of making them.
She also told me that they still have people on the waiting list
since the last ones were made (1985)!!! They are nice guitars and
I was just curious...
In about 10 days I will have a new L4CES in my hands. After playing
one at a music store, I decided that I wanted one. It's a nice
guitar, not in the same league as my L-5CES but really a quality
instrument for the money. It's inexpensive as archtops go. The list
was 1875 I'm paying $1269 for it.
I like the L4CES over the ES-175 for the Ebony fingerboard (I just
must have that on a guitar), the gold plated hardware, the L-5
tailpiece. The size and playability make this a great gigging guitar.
And again, the price is right. To me, the ES-175 was always tempting,
but it was too "low end" compared to the L-5.
Danny Weber's descriptions given in this topic aided me greatly in my
search for guitars (not done!) and have provided me with some specfic
knowledge. That knowledge has helped me decide what I REALLY want,
which sometimes can take a while. If anyone here is looking into the
archtop market and has very little knowledge in this respect, I
strongly suggest reading these descriptions. Thanks again Danny!!
(And your still not off the hook with all my questions/opinions!! ;-) ;-)
Phil
|
| 1016.45 | great pictures,terrible text. | TOOTER::WEBER | | Wed Sep 13 1989 10:08 | 18 |
| re: .41 Tsumura book
Mark, while you're enjoying looking at the beautiful pictures, I'll
repeat what I said earlier--don't pay any attention to the text. It is
a shame that so much care went into the photos and so little was spent
on the words. GG claims to have found over 150 factual errors and he's
still finding more.
Two quick examples: the blonde custom Super 400C with the narrow
cutaway is identified as a '54 ( and the serial number seems to confirm
this), but the neck and headstock date the guitar as being no earlier
than 1960. On the facing page, a "wine red" S400 is in fact cherry red.
Tom Van Hoose' collection is completely mislabeled. If you want to test
your knowledge, see if you can match the descriptions to the guitars in
the picture.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.46 | always hungry for more !! | ANT::JACQUES | | Wed Sep 20 1989 11:53 | 21 |
| I noticed a few puzzling things in the book. There appears to be
two Gibson Citation guitars in his collection with the serial number
20. Either he goofed, or Gibson mislabeled one or more instruments.
You mentioned that Tsumura is hoarding a dozen Citations, but only
nine are pictured. I assume he has purchased 3 additional Citations
since the book was published.
I asked earlier for information about a book that I have seen
at Mr. C's music store. It turns out the Book I am interested in
is called "The Guitar Collectors Book", by Mac Yasuda. This book
shows pictures of vintage instruments photographed with vintage
cars. It features private collections of people that only collect
'59 LP standards, or only collect vintage sunburst Strats, etc.
The book has english writing in the front and Japanese writing
in the back. Mr. C claims this book is out of print, and to the
best of his knowledge it is not available anywhere. Is he correct
or is there a source for this book ?
Mark
|
| 1016.47 | Citations | TOOTER::WEBER | | Thu Sep 21 1989 10:33 | 16 |
| re: .46
There are pictures of 13 different Citations in Tsumura's book,
11 in the Citation section and 2 on the rear overleaf.
It does appear that there are 2 with a reg # of 20. These MOP plates
are easily changed, so there's no way of being sure whether Gibson or a
former owner is responsible.
#15 was originally owned by a "friend" of mine in Baltimore who once
promised to sell it to me. Without telling me, he sold it to GG for
$4500, who sold it to Mac for $6500 who sold it to Tsumura for $10k.
Yasuda's book appears to be out of print.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.48 | Try these | MISFIT::KINNEYD | They say, time loves a hero | Tue Oct 03 1989 10:26 | 7 |
| I happen to have the book you mention, the one with LP's posed in
front of vintage cars. Nice pictorial but not much on facts, unless
you read Japanese (sp). I believe I picked it up at the Music Emporium
or a store in Havard Square that had an enormous amount of music and
music related books. Definatly one of the two.
Dave Kinney
|
| 1016.49 | What store? | MAMIE::OLOUGHLIN | | Tue Oct 03 1989 14:00 | 11 |
|
Uh? Music Emporium? Could you tell me where they are located?
Near Crate n'Barrel, The Coop, Mass Ave towards MIT, The Garage?
I know the square well but need land marks. I can never remember
a street name.
Rick.
|
| 1016.50 | Why dont these books have centerfolds! | MISFIT::KINNEYD | They say, time loves a hero | Wed Oct 04 1989 13:31 | 27 |
| I haven't lived in Boston for a few years so my directions would be
useless.
I may have mis-spoken, the book I have is called "The Vintage Guitar"
by Mac Yasuda, copywrite 1982 by Shinko Music Pub. Co., LTD,
ISBN4-401-62031-3. My copy is ink stamped inside:
DISTRIBUTED BY
The Bold Strummer LTD
1 Webb Rd.
Westport, CT 068smearsmear
The Vintage Guitar is along the same lines as described earlier. Many
LP, Strats, D'Angelico, Gibson, and Martin pics posed with classic cars
and beautiful girls, guits lounging by pools and on boats etc. The back
has a sort of glossery of neck and body specs for same. Lots of Japanese
text on opposite pages.
The number there is (203) 226-8230. The women answering the phone does
not know the status of these publications other than they are imported
and they are currently trying to acquire the rights for reprint. Nick,
the owner of the business knows for sure and will try to get back to
me. Unfortunatly, I am in and out of the office alot, so you may want
to try for yourself. I had them send me a catalog, in the meantime.
David Kinney
|
| 1016.51 | Why 2 pickups?? | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Fri Oct 27 1989 16:11 | 21 |
|
Archtop owners.....
My teacher and I were talking the other day about guitars. He is
looking for an old ES-175, particularly the models,with only one
pickup. We both agreed that the bridge pickup is pretty much a waste.
I never use it on my L-5CES, or L-4CES because it sounds so damn
twangy. Given that considerable surface area is cut into the face
of the guitar to accommodate set-in pickups, it seems to me that
the CES model Gibsons would sound a lot better with only one pickup.
Or any archtop for that matter.
Does anybody use the bridge pickup on their archtop??? Any comparisons
in sound between one-pickup verses two-pickup archtops?? Why did
create CES models with 2 pickups instead of one???
Phil
|
| 1016.52 | why two pickups | TOOTER::WEBER | | Fri Oct 27 1989 18:21 | 32 |
| I fully agree that the bridge pickup is a waste on CES guitars when
playing jazz, but when Gibson first started making them in the '50's,
these instruments were used for a wide variety of music, including R&B
and early rock. I suspect Scotty Moore would have been pretty unhappy
without two pickups on his L-5, ditto CB on his ES-350T. The bridge
pickup on the Byrdland formed the heart of Motown's rhythm sound in the
early '60's, and the riff on "My Girl" wouldn't have happened with a
two-pickup L-5CES.
Since archtops were all-around studio guitars until the mid-'60's, few
players of the time wanted single pickup models. Two-pickup 175's
completely outsold the single version, to the point that Gibson
discontinued the latter, and the JSD has been much more popular than
the JS, despite the fact that the second pickup on a Johnny Smith is
virtually unusable. All the recent Smiths have been one pickup
Wes had a couple of L-5C's with a single humbucker that he used for
gigs, and these were beautiful instruments. Gibson even advertised
them, but had very few takers.
I think times have changed enough so that single pickup CES models
would be more acceptable now and would be quite popular if Gibson
offered them. I'd love to own one myself; I've spoken to Gibson more
than once about this, but they weren't interested. I have seen some
L-5C's that have had a humbucker added--this can be a bad idea, since
Gibson usually puts the top braces closer together on an acoustic, and
spreads them a little for a CES. An original L-5CES with one pickup
from the '60's could probably fetch $7-10K right now, especially if it
were blonde.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.53 | sucker for a pretty face ! | VIKING::JACQUES | | Mon Oct 30 1989 09:33 | 27 |
|
I was in Mr. C's the other day, and he has a few Japanese Epiphone
guitars on display. One that caught my eye was a blonde Emperor,
with curly maple sides, back, maple neck, spruce top, rosewood
board, two humbuckers, and gold hardware. Price was $499 not incl.
hs case. He also has a sunburst Sheriton and a white Les Paul custom
copy, both of which are $499. According to Jimmy he has more LP copies
on order. He hopes to soon recieve shipment on a LP flametop copy
($499) and some LP standard sunburst copies ($399).
Granted these guitars will never be sought after collectors items,
but they seems to feature very good workmanship, and in my humble
opinion, they appear to be a good value. The Sheriton and Emperers
feature the vine headstock inlay, and the Les Paul has the split
diamond inlay. The Emperor appears to have smaller body dimensions
than the originals, but the smaller size makes them very comfortable.
Not being accustomed to playing archtop Jazz guitars, the short-scale
neck would take some getting used to.
It seems to me it would be hard to choose a used ES175, with relatively
plain wood and trim, over the very elegant Emperor with it's curly
maple wood and gold trim.
Comments ??
Mark
|
| 1016.54 | look's aren't everything.... | VIDEO::BUSENBARK | | Mon Oct 30 1989 12:14 | 15 |
|
I almost never use my bridge pickup and only ocassionally
both pickup's. I remember seeing a picture of Herb Ellis with an Es
175 which was a 2 pickup guitar at one time,Metheny did the same.
For $500 + $100 for a case,I imagine you could find a fairly
decent used archtop. There is some risk in buying used as there are
some real bad instruments out there. I've played a couple of the
Epiphones,both new and old they're ok. The Heritage guitar's and Guild's
aren't bad either. But I'd shop around.....I'm not real current with what
prices are used so this just a guess.
I played an early 60's Es 175 a month ago which had a price tag
of $1500. Everyone I've talked to said this was way out off line....
The strangest thing about it was it had a Gibson vibrola.... :^(
Rick
|
| 1016.55 | vintage often = riduculous pricing | MILKWY::JACQUES | | Mon Oct 30 1989 12:23 | 14 |
| Rich McDuff has an old Gibson in his shop. It is a non-cut
L? with a Charlie Christian pickup. The finish is really
beat. He says it is from the 1930's and was the first Gibson
guitar to include a pickup. He claims that most people notched
the pickups for better sound, but by so doing, they lessened
the resale value. This one is not notched (big deal). He
is demanding a firm $1200 for it. I doubt even a serious
collector would pay that price for this guitar. Other
than the age, it does not appear to be very desirable from
playability, or sound perspectives.
Mark
|
| 1016.56 | just don't sell it | RAINBO::WEBER | | Mon Oct 30 1989 13:54 | 23 |
| The current versions of the Emperor and Sheraton, which I think are
Korean made, are very attractive and appear to offer good value. The
only problem with buying them is resale. No matter how nice-looking
import archtops may be, selling them is difficult, and the percentage
lost is high.
A recent ES175 , used, in nice shape is about $800, and while it looks
plainer than the Epi, my experience is that it will play and sound
better. In a few years it will probably be worth more than you paid for
it. If you buy the imported Epi new, either plan to keep it forever or
expect to lose a few hundred dollars when you sell. If you must buy it,
look for a used one first.
I have bought a number of imported archtops over the years, mostly for
their looks. Once I got over how pretty they were, I found they weren't
very good guitars, and I took a hosing when I sold them. As an extreme
example, the JSD I bought new in 1969 for $550 is easily worth $3k now,
while an Ibanez copy, $425 new, might fetch $600 today, if you can find
a buyer. I sweated over that price difference then, but luckily made
the right choice.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.57 | Amps for archtops!! | POBOX::DAVIA | That hammer done killed John Henry | Fri Nov 03 1989 11:34 | 18 |
|
I think this is the proper note in which to ask this question...
What amplifiers have the best sound for archtop guitars??
I'd like to know what kind of amplification you cats use in a band
situation when playing an archtop. Feedback always seemed to be a
problem when I played my L-5CES with the band, which wasn't very
often.
A friend was telling me that he uses a Roland Jazz Chorus (anyone
have one of these, how are they??) and a 12-Band eq. He said the
eq eliminated the feedback when he played his Barker (floating pickup)
live.
I've played guitar in bands for awhile, but never Jazz (I'm studying
now).
Phil
|
| 1016.58 | Polytone... | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Fri Nov 03 1989 13:28 | 23 |
|
What amplifiers have the best sound for archtop guitars??
***** Whatever amp sound's the best to you :^).... Roland JC series amp's
are nice amp's,I've tried several.(55,77,120). And have friends who like
them... In big bands and small I primarily used Fender Twins,but I recommend
you stick with a solid state amp.
I played with a guy who used the Polytone 102D,and thought he got
great tone. I like the tone,portability and simplicity of my Mini-brute II
for Jazz. And chose that over a Roland (along with a lower price) :^)
Don't get me wrong there was alot of more to a Roland than the Polytone if
you wanted the effect's and another channel it's easy to justify the extra
expense.(the Mini Brute II is a single channel,reverb,100 watt,1 12 speaker
combo amp,aprox 25lbs.)
I used an archtop for some standards in my last band,feedback was a
matter of tone,and volume adjustments,plus the band knew when I picked up
the guitar that they needed lower there volume.(keep in mind this was a
smaller box than an L5)
So really any of the above work's,it's just what the easiest for you
to find,try and afford.
Rick
|
| 1016.59 | jazz amps | TOOTER::WEBER | | Thu Nov 09 1989 12:07 | 40 |
| I've founda few amps that I like for use with archtops. I've mentioned
them in other replies, but I'm not sure where.
*The* jazz amp is the Fender Twin. The number of players that use or
have used or express a preference for it is very high. The Twin has a
great sound and more than enough power for club work. The 2-12's give
adequate bass response with a good high end. For jazz use, the standard
Fender speakers are acceptable, since each handles only half the power.
This helps keep the weight down, but anyway you look at it this is a
heavy amp. If jazz is the only consideration, the older style Twins are
fine. For more versatility, the Twin II can't be beat. I do feel that
twins made during the '70's are not as good as either pre-CBS or more
recent models, both in sound and quality of construction.
Fender made a version of the Twin with 1-15" called the Vibrasonic.
This is also a great jazz amp if you replace the Fender speaker with an
EVM-15L-II. The standard Fender 15" speaker distorts too easily and is
low in sensitivity, too. After you install the EVM, you'll need to hire
a roady to move it.
My current favorite amp is a Fender Showman made in the mid '80's.
This is virtually a solid-state version of the Twin II, and after
owning them both, I decided I prefer the Showman. Mine has 1-15" EV;
they were also available in 2-10", 1-12" and 2-12" versions.
My other favorite jazz amp is the Polytone Mini Brute. I use a MB-IV
(1-15") for serious playing and a Baby Brute (1-8") for rehearsals. I
keep the Baby in my office, so I'm always ready to play ;-). All of the
MB's have the same power section--just the speakers and preamps vary.
The newer MB's ( after '85???) have a much-improved distortion section
and controls, and have somewhat better construction than older ones. If
it were not for its weight and size, I'd always use my Fender, but the
Polytones perform well for such small amps.
Some mention has been made of the Roland JC amps. Personally, I find
their clean sound too sterile and their overdrive sound intolerable. I
think the chorus works well with solidbodies for a new age "jazz"
sound, but in general, they are not my cup of tea.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.60 | | AQUA::ROST | Subliminal trip to nowhere | Thu Nov 09 1989 13:12 | 6 |
|
Danny, I'm curious as to why you and many other jazz players prefer the
sound of 15s while most rock players wouldn't be caught dead using them.
Brian
|
| 1016.61 | why 15" | TOOTER::WEBER | | Thu Nov 09 1989 17:15 | 27 |
| I like a 15" speaker in an open back amp because I play accompaniment
with a strong bassline and I find the 15" gives the right weight to the
bottom. Years ago, most 15's were designed for bass and were really
lacking in highs--at that time I preferred a Twin. The EVM-15L has a
much better high end than any other 15" I've heard, so my Showman gets
a really wide range sound with the bass kick I like. I have used it for
rock and GB stuff without any sense of something missing--even my Rick
sounds good through it! I could live with 2-12's if I'm working with a
strong bass player, but I do a lot of solo accompaniment and have
grown to like the fuller sound of a 15".
Rock guitarists don't need the bass--in most cases either the bass
player is doubling their bassline or they (the guitarists) are not
playing basslines at all--and usually need more highs than 15's will
provide. If all I played was rock, I'd probably use the blues player's
favorite--4-10's.
The MB IV also has plenty of bass, but the highs are dull. If I were
going to do it again, I'd get the MB II with 12" speaker. I haven't
heard an open back 1-12" amp that I like as much as 1-15", but the
Polytone's closed back makes the difference.
If I still played lounge music 5 nights a week, I'd go back to using my
favorite setup--a 15" and 2-10's with a Showman head.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.62 | JBL D130 15" for guitar | VIKING::JACQUES | | Mon Nov 20 1989 11:39 | 13 |
| I have heard that many Nashville players use JBL D130
15" speakers for a fat bass, which retains the highs as well.
The D130 is sort of a cross between a D120 and a D140. The D140
is designed for Bass, Keyboards, and PA, while the D130 was
designed mainly for guitar. I have seen Twins which have been
modified to use a single D130 that sounded very warm. I believe
the single speaker places a differant load on the amp, and
makes the amp perform differantly. Since all the power is going
to one speaker, the speaker is driven much harder than when 2
12's are used.
Mark
|
| 1016.63 | | POBOX::DAVIA | Drinkin' mash, talkin' trash | Wed Dec 27 1989 11:45 | 7 |
|
Will an acoustic archtop w/ floating pickup feedback more than
a model with set-in pickups?? How do you eliminate feedback with
hollowbody guitars?? Even my Fender Champ 12 - L4CES combination
will feeback at low volumes... Annoying.
Phil
|
| 1016.64 | feedback | TOOTER::WEBER | | Thu Dec 28 1989 11:03 | 52 |
| Phil, I've put all this in various other replies, but here it is again:
In general, carvedtop guitars with floating pickups will be more likely
to feed back than guitars with set-in pickups; a couple of humbuckers
cut into the top provide a lot of damping. Each guitar has different
resonant frequencies and amplitudes--some are much more likely to feed
back than others. Some of this is inherent in the design--I find that
Johnny Smiths are more prone to feedback than L-5C's with JS pickups.
Oval hole guitars seem to be better than f-holes for the same body
size--for example, the Howard Roberts, with a floating pickup, seems to
have less feedback than an ES-175 with set-in pickups, with virtually
the same body construction. Even so, no two archtops are alike: I'm
sure that one could find a JS with less feedback than an L-5C. I have
come across badly carved guitars with wolf tones. These are just
hopeless.
The amplifier plays a big role too--each amp has its own resonances.
This depends on the speaker, cabinet and the room you're in. I find
that small, open back amps like the Champ or Deluxe are particularly
bad--they seem to resonate at the same frequencies as the guitars. I've
had less problems with 15" speakers. Closed back cabinets seem to help,
too--another plus for Polytone.
There are ways to minimize the problem. First, try adjusting the amp
and guitar controls. If you have the guitar tone control turned down
you're asking for trouble. Play with the amp tone controls to get a
compromise between the tone you want and low feedback. Also try
different amp positions. My amp at home is carefully set up to
eliminate feedback at any reasonable volume when I'm at my usual
playing location. When I'm playing out, I position the amp a little to
the side and stand or sit right next to it. The worst position seems to
be with it a few feet behind me; bad for the ears, too.
Some players fill the guitar with foam or tape the f-holes--I don't
like this but it can be effective. The Van Eps string damper might
help, too, if you can find one.
Playing technique has a lot do with it too. Keep open strings under
control by damping with either hand. If you're playing chords, release
left hand pressure between beats--this is sort of generic to jazz
playing, anyway. For single-string playing, damp all the other strings
and play nothing longer than eighth notes--this is why bop guitarists
never stop those lines ;-) ;-).
I rarely play a carvedtop, floating pickup guitar at gigs or recording
sessions. I either use a CES model or a plywood guitar like a Kessel or
Borys B120. If the volume will be up, I use a 355--why fight it? Much
as I love archtops, there are some playing situations where they are
inappropriate.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.65 | | POBOX::DAVIA | Drinkin' mash, talkin' trash | Thu Dec 28 1989 18:31 | 6 |
|
Thanks much for these suggestions, Danny. Several things that I
hadn't thought about.
Phil
|
| 1016.66 | archtop pricing update | TOOTER::WEBER | | Fri Jan 26 1990 13:31 | 41 |
| Since I entered the basenote, archtop prices have continued to climb. I
think there is less price pressure from Japanese buyers (Tsumura seems
to have slacked off--maybe he's losing interest), but Gibson's higher
list prices and their inability to ship many models has rippled through
to the vintage market.
The way I see prices now, '50's L-5's and S400's are $4000-$6500, '60's
are running $3000-$4500, '70's and '80's are $2500-$3500. The range of
prices reflects overall condition and fanciness of the wood, but I'm
using excellent condition as the bottom of the scale. Instruments with
substantial wear might be somewhat cheaper.
Johnny Smiths are about the same, with the highest prices for very
early ones ('61-'63) at $4500. Byrdlands are somewhat less. An
excellent sunburst Byrdland from the '70's with plain wood can
generally be had for about $2000. L-5CT's have been very high--I know
of one that sold for $8500 recently.
On the other hand, prices of lesser carved tops, L-7's, 10's and 12's,
for example, have not changed much.
Many of the plywood models have jumped in price, too. A typical Kessel
is now around $1500, a Howard Roberts Artist is $1250, '78 ES-350T is
$1250-$1750. The current price on the only mint Tal Farlow I know that
is for sale is $5400.
D'Angelicos have had some extremely high price tags, with at least one
Excel Special priced at $25,000, and other prices in the $5,000 to
$15,000 range. Jimmy D'Aquisto has continued raising his prices--a New
Yorker is over $10k-- so prices on vintage D'Aquisto's have risen
accordingly.
Even Heritage has gotten into the act, with their new Johnny Smith
model list priced at $4200.
I keep looking for a sign that these prices have reached a plateau, but
I haven't seen it yet. I think the rate of increase has diminished, but
each time there is a major vintage guitar show, the prices seem to
notch up a bit more.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.67 | bargain alert | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Aug 30 1990 12:05 | 11 |
| I just received a call from a dealer with whom I do much business. He
has been asked to sell one of the few Citations still in the US. The
price---$30k!!!
Believe it or not, this is more than I'd want to spend for a guitar ;-)
The worst part of it is, it will probably seem like a bargain in five
years.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.68 | just curious ... | E::EVANS | | Thu Aug 30 1990 12:19 | 7 |
|
$30K! - where are these guitars going?
Is it true that many of the older vintage instuments are going out of the
country?
Jim
|
| 1016.69 | I think I'm turning Japanese | MILKWY::JMINVILLE | Love is a burning THING! | Thu Aug 30 1990 14:42 | 1 |
| They're going to Japan friends...
|
| 1016.70 | Hey..not bad | POBOX::DAVIA | Hey Monk, is that a new hat?? | Thu Aug 30 1990 17:32 | 7 |
|
$30k...hmmmm.... makes a D'Aquisto seem like a bargain at $10K, doesn't
it? Maybe I'll hold to my 89' L4CES, it should be worth about $30k
sometime in the next millenium.
Phil D.
|
| 1016.71 | | FREEBE::REAUME | coaster-holic | Wed Sep 05 1990 11:11 | 7 |
| Jeez - does that mean you could trade 60 Ibanez RG550's for one
Gibson Citation? Sounds pretty rude! Explain the coverage on that
guitar to your insurance agent!
Me? I wouldn't want the responsibility of a highly collectable
guitar, event one that cost $5K.
-BooM-
|
| 1016.72 | | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Sep 11 1990 13:31 | 9 |
| The very fact that one *could find* 60 Ibanez RG550's guitars for sale
is just one of the differences.
The amount of fine wood would be about the same, in any case ;-)
Danny W.
|
| 1016.73 | Big Red | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Oct 22 1990 17:48 | 42 |
|
Last year I asked Roger Borys to build me a B420 to match my B120. The
B120 is a 16" wide guitar with laminated wood, the B420 is 17" wide and
uses solid wood. My B120 is blonde with curly maple binding and extra
inlay, and is a fabulous guitar. I thought it would be nice to own a
more acoustic version, too.
After the guitar was underway, I had a change of heart. I guess I just
wanted something different: I asked Roger to stain it transparent
cherry red. Roger had never done this color before, but he's pragmatic,
and doesn't like to argue with good customers unless they want
something that won't sound good or play well. We decided that plastic
binding would go better with the color, but since the headstock was
already bound in wood, we just left it that way.
The end result is simply superb. The finish is a perfect, slightly
vintage-looking cherry red that is similar to a color Jimmy D'Aquisto
has sometimes used. The neck is 1.75" wide at the nut, and is slightly
deeper and rounder than I might have chosen, but it turns out to fit me
perfectly. The back and sides are extremely curly, with a very tight
pinstripe grain. The fretboard inlay is beautifully complex but not
overdone. The peghead veneer is macassar ebony on both sides, and there
is a nice inlay pattern on the rear of it. My initials are inlaid into
the ebony truss-rod cover. The pickguard is bound gaboon ebony with a
Gibson BJB pickup, tone and volume control mounted to it. We decided
not to use as much binding as on my B120, winding up with a 5-ply top
and back pattern, 3-ply sides and a 3-ply neck binding. The frets are
flatter and wider than t hose Borys usually uses.
The sound is stunning, both acoustically and through the pickup. It
certainly sounds like an L-5 size guitar, despite having a shallower
(3") body. The action is a little higher than I'd like, so I'll have
Roger shave a little off the bridge saddle. The only lapse in
workmanship I've found is a very slight mismatch between the binding
and the wood at the curve of the upper bout. Most of my Gibsons have
worse examples of this minor difficiency.
"Big Red", as Roger has named it, is supposed to appear in Guitar
Player magazine early next year, to illustrate the Borys Guitar
Giveaway. Watch for it.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.74 | I'm jealous | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vote Yes on 3 | Wed Oct 24 1990 16:51 | 27 |
| Congratulations on the new guitar. It sounds like a one of a kind
instrument that you will treasure for years to come. Maybe I'll
win the one in the GP giveaway :^)
By the way, in an earlier reply, I asked about the Book "The Vintage
Guitar" by Mac Yasuda. Everyone I asked told me the book was out of
print and not available. I tried calling the Bold Strummer again this
week, and they told me Mac had issued a second printing of the book,
but they did not have it. They gave me a number for Mac Yasuda in L.A.
and I called. It turns out they still have copies of the first printing
as well as copies of the second printing. The second printing has all
of the information and pictures of the first book, plus additional
photos of some of the new instruments Mac has aquired. Either book
can be purchased directly from Mac for $40.00
If anyone is interested in getting a copy of this book, the
phone number for Mac Yasuda is 714-833-7882.
His mailing address is:
Mac Yasuda
1550 Bristol St. North
Newport Beach, Ca. 92660
Cheers
Mark Jacques
|
| 1016.75 | Borys | POBOX::DAVIA | Hey Monk, is that a new hat?? | Mon Dec 03 1990 16:46 | 29 |
|
Re. .73
Big Red sounds like quite the axe, I don't think I've ever seen an
archtop in Cherry Red before. Since I also have a B-420 on order with
Roger, I'm anxious to see what that baby looks like.
Well, I always thought that my 1976 Gibson L-5CES had a 1.75" fretboard
width at the nut. After receiving my Borys B-120 which is 1.75, I
quickly realized that the L-5 has a 1 11/16 neck, because the difference
is incredibly noticeable. I can't explain the feeling of the B120,
except to say that it is RIGHT. The color is a darker than normal
natural finish, actually a gold/amber tint which highlights the wood
nicely. The only drawback: the wider neck (I've got pretty small hands)
makes it quite a challenge to play some chord voicings high on the neck
(position 9 and up). But I guess that's o.k.,as it's forced me to search
for and find some new voicings!!
The B-420 I've ordered, is 3 3/8 inches thick (same as an L-5)
instead of the Borys standard 3". The reason for this is that
guitar is designed to be fully acoustic. Right now, I have no plans
of putting a pickup on it, but that may change :-).
The scale length, 25.1, is a compromise between 24.75 and 25.5.
Having input into the conceptual design of the guitar is really a
great experience, and gets you exactly what you want in an instrument.
It's also causing me to liquidate a few of my guitars!!
Phil
|
| 1016.76 | GP 1/91 | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Dec 10 1990 09:27 | 5 |
| Big Red is on page 92 of the Jan '91 Guitar Player.
I've had red archtops before: a 1968 Byrdland and an '82 L-5 CES.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.77 | Lucky | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Wed Dec 12 1990 13:01 | 9 |
| I just recieved the Jan. issue of GP in the mail last night. Sure
enough, there's Big Red. Beauty !!
My entry blank is in the mail as we speak. I'll let you know when they
inform me that I've won the contest !! :^{)>
Mark
PS: If I win, I'll have to name the guitar "Lucky".
|
| 1016.78 | | POBOX::DAVIA | Hey Monk, is that a new hat?? | Thu Dec 13 1990 13:28 | 6 |
|
I'm going to enter the contest too. If I win, I'm not going to accept
the guitar, just have Roger send me the one I've ordered AND my money
back!!!
Phil
|
| 1016.79 | | POBOX::DAVIA | Bud Powell,Bud Powell,Bud Powell.. | Fri Feb 15 1991 17:11 | 9 |
|
What has happened to the archtop guitar market recently. Has the
recession (war too, may have an effect) made instruments more
difficult to sell? This could cause prices to drop in the
near future. Of course, I'm not in the market to buy now so the
prices will probably plummet!
Phil (who is currently selling two archtops)
|
| 1016.80 | re: -.1 | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Feb 19 1991 10:57 | 16 |
| Don't hold your breath waiting for vintage archtop prices to take a
dive. I think that most of the people who keep the prices high are not
much affected by the recession. So far, there doesn't appear to be a
glut of fine instruments on the market, though it is possible that
dealers are saving them for the upcoming TX show. There are more
instruments available than I've seen in some years, but the prices
don't seem to be bargains. I think some of the owners are trolling for
a high price.
Last year, I offered a 1952 L-5CN to noters for $4500. No DEC takers,
so I sold it to a dealer who already had a buyer lined up. Mandolin
Bros currently has one listed that is not quite as nice for $10k. Buy
'em while they're hot :-)
Danny W.
|
| 1016.81 | Well not all of them are the price of a used car.. | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Tue Feb 19 1991 13:40 | 16 |
| I think the whole market is kind of dipping,I had a real hard
time selling a bunch of stuff which I finally just decided to dump on a
trade-in. I had it in a consignment shop for 3 months. These weren't
large ticket items either.
I also have found the archtop market is seems out of control,and for
the price of a used production guitar,you can have one built. Or have I
been mis-informed? For 2 to 2.5k? I did notice a non-cut Gibson L7(sunburst)
was going for $1050 with case. The same guitar blonde top with cutaway went
for $1350 a few months ago. I would think these were bargins. I did see a 50's
ES150 non-cut go for $400 which needed extensive work on the back,and frets.
These are bargins in my eyes..... Anyone know what a "new" L5c from Gibson
runs?
Rick
|
| 1016.82 | prices | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Feb 20 1991 08:44 | 14 |
| Custom archtops start at about $3k from Heritage, $4K from Borys, $5k
from Benedetto and $10k from D'Aquisto. Stock models are a little
cheaper, with a Heritage Golden Eagle at around $2k.
Gibson production has been so spotty that their prices are probably
irrelevant, but new L-5 CES's at run $2750-$3500. I've been told that
Gibson's new price list has the Super 400 CES at $10k, which seems to
indicate that they don't want to build any. I know two people who
bought recent L-5's--one said it was the best guitar he's ever owned,
the other said it was the worst. I haven't seen one myself, so I can't
comment.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.83 | In Guitar Player mag? | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Fri Feb 22 1991 08:38 | 7 |
| I seem to remember a bottom price of $1895 for a Bory's however
I suppose that the "Custom" part is when you get up to $4k. Whats
the value added of an L5 compared to a Bory's?
Rick
|
| 1016.84 | RIP Lonesome George | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Feb 25 1991 17:28 | 22 |
| "Lonesome George" Gobel was a low-key comedian who had a popular TV
show in the '50's. Part of his act was to strum a few chords and tell
some jokes. For a number of years, he used a cherry red Super 400C.
George was on the small side, and was pretty well hidden by the huge
guitar, so in 1959 Gibson built him a thin-body guitar called the
L-5CT. It was an L-5C finished in cherry red, with a narrow rim,
similar to the Byrdland in size, and a 24-3/4" scale. X-bracing and the
shallow depth combined to give it a thin, nasal sound. Gibson probably
only built one factory order of these (the yield of 40 kits) and they
were shipped from '59-'62. Many had pickups installed at the factory,
or were quickly modified by their owners. Original acoustic models now
sell for $7k-10k
Gibson mentioned George in their catalogs, and the L-5CT was always
unofficially called the George Gobel model. George thus joined the
rarified company of Les, Tal, Johnny and Barney (not to mention Trini
and Phil & Don) in having a Gibson named after him.
George Gobel died over the weekend.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.85 | | LEDS::BURATI | | Tue Feb 26 1991 13:26 | 8 |
| Thanks Danny. I always liked George Gobel. When I saw the news over
the weekend I realized that George Gobel provided me at about the age
of 3 my first exposure to a guitar. I think that it was the first
guitar I'd ever seen and for many years in the late fifties I kinda thought
of Lonesome George as a very cool guy. I was sad to learn he had died. But
this isn't a Geaorge Gobel note, is it.
--rjb
|
| 1016.86 | re: .83 | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Feb 26 1991 17:04 | 11 |
| The prices I mentioned were for carved top guitars. Roger offers
laminated top electrics starting at under $2k.
The added value of an L5 compared to a Borys or Benedetto or most other
makers except D'Aquisto is as an investment. I am pretty certain that
in 10 years an L5 will be worth a lot more than it is today. As
guitars, I like my Borys's, but I also like my L5's and Super 400's.
They are comparable in quality, but differ in sound and feel and each
serves a purpose.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.87 | Depends on the model.... | POBOX::DAVIA | Bud Powell,Bud Powell,Bud Powell.. | Wed Mar 06 1991 13:36 | 15 |
| Rick,
If you are interested in a Borys, call him and get some specifics.
He's a very nice guy, and was very considerate in regards to specs.
for the guitar he built for me.
My B-420 is on the way :-) ....At a very good price.
The initial reason I bought a Borys instrument was because I could
not justify paying $3000 - $5000 for a Gibson L5C. My Gibson L5CES
(which I still like very much) is currently up for sale at a vintage
shop on consignment. I'm moving it to make way for my B-420, which has
L-5 body dimensions with a floating pickup.
Phil
|
| 1016.88 | ES-120T date/valuation ?? | GSRC::COOPER | Major MIDI Rack Puke (tm) | Thu Mar 28 1991 03:18 | 22 |
| I recently acquired my first arch top in a grab bag with a couple of
vintage Fender Vibra-Champs (noted elsewhere).
The guitar is an older (est. 1964ish??) Gibson ES-120T (s/n 282343).
This particular instrument is in pretty decent shape; it's got some
mild 'checking' (alligator skin), but is pretty shiny and the woodgrain
is beautiful. The neck is straight and everything works. It sounds
GREAT thru my Marshall...
Anyway, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I don't really
understand how to date the guitar. Can someone help me ?
An estimated value would be great too !
Would it be worth a re-fret job ? Would it be worth having the finish
fixed up ?? How can one fix up the finish (I used some lemon oil and
Tres Amigo polish and it looks good, but not perfect).
Help a novice vintage collector...please ??
jc
|
| 1016.89 | some answers | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Mar 28 1991 11:07 | 10 |
| I generally see 120's in the $300-$400 range. Yours is from 1965, BTW.
DON'T OIL LACQUER FINISHES! Especially if they have weather-checking.
Use Gibson or Martin guitar polish. Oil softens the finish, can cause
or accelerate checking and serves no useful purpose.
A refinish probably won't affect the value,
since it doesn't have much anyway. Ditto a refret.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.90 | | GSRC::COOPER | Major MIDI Rack Puke (tm) | Thu Mar 28 1991 11:22 | 3 |
| Thanks Danny...
jc (going to rub off the oil... But still excited ;)
|
| 1016.91 | Old Gibson acoustic... | WMOIS::MELENDEZ_M | | Fri Apr 05 1991 12:09 | 11 |
|
I have a question about Gibson acoustic guitars. A friend has a
very old (It looks it anyway) Gibson guitar.
The condition of the guitar is not very good. I can not find a
serial number anywhere. I did find a number written in pencil
in side the box at the base for the neck (750). The gibson name
is painted
Can any one tell me anything else?
|
| 1016.92 | re: -.1 | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Apr 17 1991 10:00 | 10 |
| It would really help to have a better description of the guitar. Gibson
used to use factory order numbers that would be *stamped* inside the
body, not penciled in. A number as low as 750 would indicate a guitar
from around 1910 if what you saw was really an FO.
Since you entered your reply under the archtop note, I assume the
guitar is an archtop. Are there any other details you can add? Binding,
inlay, type of wood, size, any other identifying marks would help.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.93 | ES175D questions | RT95::STILLWAGGON | Pete. NEGD Open Systems Support 274-6404 | Thu Apr 18 1991 03:00 | 12 |
| I am looking for info regarding the current pricing for an ES175D
from 1983. The guitar is quite clean, well cared for and plays
well.
The color is a brown sunburst, no finish damage, and sounds fine.
Also, is there anything to watch out for on a 175D? Anything
strange about early-mid 1980's instruments?
Thank You
Pete
|
| 1016.94 | ES175D | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Apr 18 1991 09:15 | 6 |
| '80's 175's typically go for $700-$1000. If the last three digits of
the serial number are under 500, the guitar was made in Kalamazoo and
might go for a premium--many of the last guitars built there are of
higher quality.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.95 | concur | LEDS::BURATI | Now, with FEELING | Thu Apr 18 1991 10:59 | 8 |
|
Danny W. speaks the truth.
A recent listing from a vintage instrument dealer lists 2 ES175
guitars. Both priced at $795. One is a 1978 in very good condition.
The other is a 1986 model in excellent cond.
rjb
|
| 1016.96 | Thank You | RT95::STILLWAGGON | Pete. NEGD Open Systems Support 274-6404 | Thu Apr 18 1991 18:50 | 1 |
|
|
| 1016.97 | Gibson Chet? | RICKS::CALCAGNI | The rhythm is implied | Mon Jun 17 1991 13:56 | 10 |
| We need some activity in this note.
A recent guitar mag shows Mark Knopfler and Chet Atkins both holding
a gorgeous red-orange hollow or semi (not sure), thinline, single rounded
(Venetian?) cutaway with two goldplated humbuckers and a gold Bigsby.
The truss rod cover had Chet's name inscribed. Is this a standard
model or a custom? Does Gibson make a Chet Atkins? Any info on this
guitar would be most appreciated.
/rick
|
| 1016.98 | GP is the only place I've ever seen one | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Mon Jun 17 1991 16:01 | 12 |
| I'm sure Danny will provide the correct answer. If I remember correctly,
Gibson introduced a Chet Atkin's model archtop a few years ago. Not to
be confused with the Gibson Chet Atkins classical-electric. Check old
GP mags. At one time (About 2-3 years back) Gibson had a monthly ad on
the rear cover of GP which showcased their new line. I seem to recall
they also had a Waylon Jennings model as well.
I think Danny mentioned the Gibson Chet Atkins models recently, about
10-20 replies back. Then again, it may have been in reply to another
note (possibly a Gretch note).
Mark
|
| 1016.99 | Country Gent, Gibson style | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Jun 17 1991 17:20 | 16 |
| The Gibson Chet Atkins Country Gentlemen is a current catalog item.
It's a single-cut semi,17" x 2-something", with a Bigsby, unbound neck
and headstock, and offset red inlays. It's pretty easy to find a new
one, and some vintage dealers, like Gruhn, seem to have an endless
supply of used ones.
Until recently, it sold for around $1300, but the new price list raises
that $500. I've played a few of them and thought they were pretty nice,
but the neck cosmetics don't do anything for me. I'd love to see one
with an L-5 neck.
The ones on Chet's TV appearance were "Sunrise Orange". They also come
in black, wine red, and, of course," Country Gent Brown". There is
also a Nashville model, which is plainer and half the price.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.100 | Got the fever, Somebody call me a Dr. | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Tue Jun 18 1991 13:31 | 55 |
| Rick,
I found the ad I mentioned in my last reply. It ran on the
back cover of "Frets" magazine (not G.P.) around the Nov. '86
timeframe. The ad lists four models including the following:
Chet Atkins Nylon String Classic/Electric. You're probably
familiar with these. A solid body classic with built-in piezo-
electric pickup. The body on these was laminated from Mahogany
and Sitka spruce.
Chet Atkins steel-string classic. This is a steel-string
version of the above classic-electric with a body contructed
of South American "Chromyte (TM)" and featured Gibsons patented
"SORS" pickup system.
Chet Atkins CGP. This is a solid body with a quasi-Strat
shape, which features a mahogany body with a 1-piece maple neck,
one single coil pickup in the middle position and one dual-coil
hummer in the bridge position. In my opinion this guitar was
fugly, with a body shape reminicient of the early Peavey's and
a pickgaurd that looks like it belongs on an SG. The headstock
has a hockey stick shape to it.
Chet Atkin's "Country Gentleman". Select Maple top and back,
solid center block like an ES335 (A Semi). Bound F-holes, two
humbuckers, Unbound neck and headstock with "Torch" inlay.
Gold plated Bigsby tailpiece. This guitar is very reminicient
of Gretch CG's with essentially the same body shape as a CG, and
the same style fret markers as a Gretch. While it's a pretty nice
axe, it's really not my cup of tea.
Pictured in the Ad was Chet with the CG, and Waylon Jennings
with the CGP. The two classic-electrics were propped up behind
them. These ads ran on Frets back cover for about a year but the
only model I've ever actually seen is the nylon-string classic-
electric. My cousin bought one of these when his band was covering
tunes by Boston, Yes, etc. He used to mount it on a stand and use
it for intro's and fills, then switch back to his electic for the
rest of the tunes.
I agree that this note needs to be revitalized. I predict a
surge in the popularity of Archtops. Last month there were 3 ES175's
pictured in Guitar World. I believe the ES175 will become extremely
popular with Blues players and may eventually draw peoples attention
away from Strat's and Tele's. The 175 offers players the important
features like a cutaway, and two humbuckers, while being somewhat
affordable. I'd love one !! Right now, I've got archtop fevor so bad,
I'd settle for an ES125, or even an import. I've even considered
selling my ES345 to get one, but I don't think I'm going to do that.
I'll probably just wait a while and keep saving my penny's. Anyone
need their car washed ?? Lawn Cut ?? I even do windows !!
Mark
|
| 1016.101 | | RGB::ROST | I believe she's a dope fiend | Tue Jun 18 1991 15:22 | 8 |
| C'mon Mark, your Strat mania can't be gone already!!! 8^)
What happened to yer 345?
Yamaha, of all people, just showed a new thin semi (kinda like a
Byrdland) called an AE1500 or some such. Supposedly uses a radical new
bracing schme to get rid of feedback resonances ('wolf tones").
Brian
|
| 1016.102 | all it takes is cash | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Jun 18 1991 18:08 | 45 |
| My experience with numerous thin archtops is that they are a bad
compromise, with neither the sound of a deeper body nor the sustain and
playability of a semi. I've not been happy with the sound of any
instrument I've played with a body less than 2.5" deep, and find that
3" is the start of really good sound. My best-sounding guitars are the
big ones--nothing beats a Super 400 CES for getting a perfect jazz
tone. Too bad I can only play one for about an hour before my right
hand goes totally numb from being wrapped over the lower bout. I need
to be a foot taller :-)
Mark's complaint is valid--even a cheap archtop will set you back $800.
I haven't done a pricing update here for awhile, but the top end on
vintage instruments is OTT and utility instruments are generally in the
$1k-$2k range. The list on an ES-175 is now $2150, and is $10k(!!!) for a
blonde S400 CES. I wouldn't worry about the latter, since I doubt that
Gibson is actually making any, but it pulls up prices on older
instruments. The market is very hot, too--I recently sold four guitars
through a dealer within a week, at full asking price.
I keep giving the same advice, but here it comes again... an American
made archtop is a better investment than an imported one, even if you
feel the quality is the same. Even fairly desirable guitars, like
Ibanez GB-10's or L-5 copies are hard to sell--and they aren't so cheap
anymore, either. Bensons have been in the $800-$1k range and at this
price I'd take a good 175 any day.
My favorite cheap archtops have been Howard Roberts models--I prefer
the longer scale on this size body. They were bargains a few years ago,
but even the Standards are now hard to find for less than a grand.
The imported Epi's probably offer the most guitar for the money and seem
decently made. They are hard to sell and will not appreciate with time
and the couple I've played were lacking in tone, but there isn't much
else to choose from under $500.
Real Epi's have climbed quite a bit recently, with many of them in the
high teens and early '50's Emperors at $3k-$4k. Even Guilds fetch more
than $1k if they are in good shape and I've seen asking prices on AA
models over $3k (much too high,IMO).
This all boils down to: archtops are expensive; they probably won't
become cheaper; the longer you wait, the more it will cost; so what
else is new?
Danny W.
|
| 1016.103 | I'll never get that 175!!! | LEDS::BURATI | Spanish Castle Magic | Tue Jun 18 1991 18:32 | 5 |
| I just received a flyer from Lark Street Music. Believe it or not, their
prices just keep climbing -- fast. Vintage Gibson archtops (and Fender
Strats) are up (thousands?) from several years ago. Apparently all that
press about the bottom falling out of the vintage instrument market in
'88 is false. I'll fetch the flyer and type in some prices.
|
| 1016.104 | re. 101 | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Wed Jun 19 1991 00:48 | 24 |
| regarding .101 Brian, I got over the Strat mania as soon as I bought
my Strat. Then a got a replaspe one day in Kurlan's music when I
checked out a Fender custom shop Strat in Shorline gold, with v-shaped
maple neck, gold hardware and a gold-anodized pickgaurd. The custom
shop built 500 of these and each had a special inscription on the
back of the headstock with the series number and custom shop emblem.
The one Kurlan's had was number 375 of 500. They were asking $1000
for it, but I found out they later sold it for $800. Sunbursts are
my favorite, but Shorline gold is definately second on my list of
Strat finishes.
I still own my ES345, and have for the past 12 years. I'm not planning
on selling it, ever, although I've been tempted a few times. It has
that fat creamy Gibson sound similar to a Les Paul, but it cannot
be made to sound like a fully hollow archtop no matter how much
knob twisting you do, and no matter what amp you play it through.
There is something about the sound of an Archtop that cannot be
produced by any other style of guitar. It's that sweet singin' tone
that get's me. Ideally, I'd like one that would sound great both
acoustically and amplified, but I definately want an electric model.
I've got those "Can't afford an Archtop this year blues"
Mark
|
| 1016.105 | OK, You're a Dr. | COOKIE::WITHERS | Bob Withers | Wed Jun 19 1991 02:26 | 5 |
| >MILKWY::JACQUES "Vintage taste, reissue budget" 55 lines 18-JUN-1991 12:31
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -< Got the fever, Somebody call me a Dr. >-
Sorry, couldn't resist...
|
| 1016.106 | more ramblings | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Jun 19 1991 09:59 | 16 |
| re: .103
Just for the record, Buzz Levine (Lark St Music) is one of the more
reasonably priced vintage dealers. I do a lot of business with him and
can recommend him highly (usual disclaimer--I have no financial
interest in this). Buzz is a good guy and seems unusually honest.
As for the bottom falling out of the vintage market, remember--you
didn't hear that from me. Consider that many vintage archtops are
cheaper than a new replacement, and you'll see the market is hardly
overpriced. A '62 S400 w/ PAF's at $9000 is not much more than the
current selling price of a new Gibson, if you could find one, and a '59
175 at $1750 is just a few hundred dollars more than a new one, and
likely to be of better quality.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.107 | used archtop prices | LEDS::BURATI | Spanish Castle Magic | Wed Jun 19 1991 12:02 | 36 |
| Re .104
If Kurlan's Music is in Worcester MA then I think I know the guy that
took it away for $800. He doesn't even play guitar! He says that he
thought if he bought a really nice guitar that he would want to learn to
play even more. After he bought it though, he told me that he is afraid
to take it out to play it for fear that he'll damage it. Gawd, I didn't
know it had a V-neck too. Funny world we live in, ain't it?
Here'e some of the archtop prices from a flyer I just got in the mail.
Electrics
L5-Premier, 1940, Blonde cutaway, two humbuckers installed, new frets,
pickguard, and tuners, all else orig. very good+ $2950
L5-CES, 1976, Blonde, exc $2900
ES-295, 1958, very rare model, orig PAFs, all orig, one owner, near mint $7500
Byrdland, 1963, florentine cutaway, exc $3500
ES-335, 1960, dot neck, Cherry, very good+ $3500
ES-225T, 1956, sunburst, 1 P90, very good+ $ 650
Acoustics
L5-Premier, 1940, sunburst, cutaway, orig case. $8500
Super 400C, 1966, tobacco sunburst, near mint $4500
Epiphone Emperor, 1945, sunburst, refinished by Gibson in early '60s $2900
L7-C, 1953, Blonde, cutaway, new ebony fretbrd w/ L5 inlays, gold hw, exc $2000
|
| 1016.108 | Oh, what I could do with an extra $25K! | LEDS::BURATI | Spanish Castle Magic | Wed Jun 19 1991 12:14 | 12 |
| > Just for the record, Buzz Levine (Lark St Music) is one of the more
> reasonably priced vintage dealers. I do a lot of business with him and
> can recommend him highly (usual disclaimer--I have no financial
> interest in this). Buzz is a good guy and seems unusually honest.
I agree completely about Buzz. I've bought a couple of instruments from
him. He's been very good to deal with. A few years ago I bought a '54
not-completeley-original Telecaster from him that he says was his
personal guitar. It needed a bit of work, but it's a dream now. I hope
that I can do business with him again.
--ron
|
| 1016.109 | | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Jun 19 1991 15:49 | 9 |
| Gibson has introduced some ES-175 variants recently, including the
ES-165, a single pickup version with gold hardware and the old-style
tailpiece, and the ES-177 (or 377--they've had it both ways on price
lists), which is all black w/ gold hardware.
Oh, yeah--there's also the ES-295 reissue and the L-4 CES, so there are
lots of variations on this theme.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.110 | More ?? than you probably want to answer | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Thu Jun 20 1991 00:39 | 22 |
| The 165 sounds like it may be a good choice. Perhaps this would
provide a better acoustic sound than the 175D, while still providing
the essential electric sound. Tom Wheeler's book has a picture of
an old Blonde 175 with one black P90 pickup. This seems like a
nice model, but I'd rather have a humbucker than a soapbar pickup.
How much would this list/sell for ? The frustrating this is that
none of the Gibson dealers in the area even bother to stock ANY
archtops, only a few semi's and that's it. Most of them don't
even have catalogs to give out that include archtops. The 295 is
also interesting, but the floral pickgaurd is rather ugly IMHO. I
suppose it would be easy enough to swap for a standard 175 gaurd.
Does the L4CES have a smaller body than an L5 ? What style cutaway
do these have ?
If I called Gibson, would they send me a full catalog ? Do they
still charge for catalogs ? I guess a better question is how do
I get my hands on a current catalog with price list ?
Thanks for the info, Danny.
Mark
|
| 1016.111 | | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Jun 20 1991 09:34 | 16 |
| A 165 is around the same price as a 175. I really wouldn't expect a big
difference in tone between a single and dual humbucker set into a
plywood top.
The L-4 CES is the same size as a 175, but has a carved spruce top.
Gibson hasn't published a proper catalog since '88. The current one is
really a brochure and has little information. I get my price lists from
a dealer, but you might give Gibson a call at 615-871-4500 and ask.
Finding a decent used ES-175 is easy, and if you look for something
non-vintage, should be somewhat cheaper than a new one.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.112 | ES-165 price | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Jun 21 1991 10:07 | 7 |
| Checking around, I've found that the ES-165 is quite a bit cheaper than
the 175. For some reason, it is not on the "historic collection" price
list that Gibson uses to jack up prices even more than usual.
My dealer has one for $920 shipped, and gets about $1300 for a 175.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.113 | there are a few deals... | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Fri Jun 21 1991 10:08 | 44 |
| All I can say is you guys are absolutely right prices have gone up
in the archtop market and fewer affordable guitars are available. The time
to buy was a couple of years ago. But that price on an L7c for $2k is
pretty good as just a year ago I saw one go by for $1300. Geo Gruhn's
list just totally blows me away. An L5s for $2k?
I really think a good point that Danny has made is the size,not
only the 3 inch thickness but the 17 inch body size makes a difference
with the kind of sound you get. I am also big on solid spruce tops...
The one thing I've heard is that the plywood tops are less likely to
feedback,and especially the ones with pickups in them.
Here's some deals I've passed on...
50's L7c Blonde $1300.
50's? ES150 P90 $450,had a cracked back,but had a 17 inch body
and needed fret and finish work.I believe
this had a solid spruce top,as I read some
where that the earlier ones did.Sunburst top
brown sides....
The number under the lower f hole was 5509-15
Is it a 50's?
50's ES125 P90 $425,had some cracks on the side and grover
replacement tuners.
70's Es175 $800,sunburst nice instrument
Es175 $850,natural nice instrument,but in need of some
electronic's work.
So you can find a few deals here and there,as these were seen in
the last 9 months. But they don't last long....as I was told that vintage
dealers are pretty regularly shopping other smaller music stores and
picking up pieces here and there.....for the vintage market.
I remember reading a review of a Barrington archtop that GG had his
hands into design wise. Anybody try or seen one?
Also didn't Gibson make a Herb Ellis model Es175 with a single
pickup to replace Herb's old standby? Or is this the ES165?
Rick
|
| 1016.114 | Tone monsters | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Mon Jun 24 1991 13:31 | 24 |
| I've seen Barringtons in two stores. Mr. C's had one, and EU Wurlitzers
had one in their Worcester store. Both were in the $1000.00 range.
The two that I saw were both about the size of an ES335, but I think
they were fully hollow. Both guitars had very fancy trim, like abalone
fret markers, multi-binding, bound F-holes, gold-plated hardware, and
highly figured maple with natural finishes. They seemed nice, but I
wouldn't want to invest this much money in a guitar unless I'm sure
the value will hold up.
As far as archtop tone is concerned, there is a classis singing jazz
tone that I would expect to get from a good archtop. It's kind of hard
to describe with words, but players like Howard Roberts have this tone
nailed. The guitarist that playes in Johnny Carson's "Mighty Carson
players with Doc Severenson" regularly uses this type of tone. I
suppose it helps that they have monster jazz-chord vocabularies. It
seems like chords with lots of octaves present in them seem to sing
out the most on an archtop.
Danny, if you know the kind of tone I'm reffering to, perhaps you can
tell me if this tone is possible with ES175's, and if not, which models
of Gibsons produce this tone the best.
Mark
|
| 1016.115 | testimonial | LEDS::BURATI | You've Got Me Floatin' | Mon Jun 24 1991 14:10 | 6 |
| I played in bands with other guys that had ES175s. One guy always had a
sorta honky-tonk tone. The other guy got a monstrous jazz sound -- no
matter what he plugged into. Sonetimes it almost didn't sound like a
guitar. Like George Benson meets...Pat Martino or something. Anyway, no
question in my mind, ES175 can get you a long way towards a big jazzy
sound.
|
| 1016.116 | two tones..... | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Mon Jun 24 1991 14:22 | 16 |
|
I'm not sure about Howard Roberts,or the Carson show,but if you
want hear Es175 tone I'd suggest you look for some Herb Ellis,like his
recent reunion with Oscar Peterson,or Pat Metheny's Questions and Answers
if you can decode the effects he uses and lastly maybe some early Jim
Hall with Bill Evans or Ron Carter. I think the Es 175's or plywood tops
sound "deader"....
The other Classic jazz tone which I hear alot is evident on
Lee Ritenour's latest non-fusion release,Tuck Andress's solo effort,Perhaps
certain Wes Mongomery records.... Some early Pat Martino?
A real different acoustic quality to the sound of the instument
which for the most part is a Gibson L5(solid spruce top,17" body).
Doesn't Jack Wilkins use a ES175? or a L7c?
Rick
|
| 1016.117 | it's in the fingers | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Jun 24 1991 18:31 | 39 |
| Rick is exactly right. The ES-175 has been a staple of jazz guitarists
for many years and guys like Ellis and Hall relied quite heavily on its
smooth, flat, resonant sound to get that seamless, all-purpose jazz
tone. Guitars with carved spruce tops, like the L-5, are rounder and
brighter, have more attack and a decidedly different touch. Wes defines
the L-5 sound--even though he uses his thumb instead of a pick, there
is a bite to his playing that would be absent on a plywood guitar.
Jack Wilkins plays an L-7C with a humbucker, so that's in the L-5 camp.
Howard Roberts plays a Howard Roberts, which has a 175-size plywood
body with a floating pickup and oval soundhole. I find it to be a
little brighter than a 175, and the long scale gives it more bass
response, too. A pair of these are the only maple-top Gibson archtops I
own. They're fun to play and have a different sound from f-hole
guitars, but I can still get a nice jazz sound out of them. Roberts has
a round, smooth, singing sound--I have heard him play a 175 and get
the same sound, so I think its him.
There have been three guitarists on the Tonight Show recently. Bobby
Bain, who held the chair for many years (and still subs) uses a 175 or
a Telecaster (!!). His replacement, whose name escapes me, uses an
Ibanez 2630 (or AS-200). The third guy, whose name I never knew, plays
some pointy-headed thing or sometimes an ES-335. All of them get a
really good jazz sound. The type of sound I hear on the Tonight Show
most often is more of a singing, fusion kind of sound that is more
typical of a semi than an archtop.
If the question is can one get a good jazz sound from a 175, I'd say
sure-Hall, Ellis, Pass and Metheny prove it. If the question is how
can one get a sound like player X, I'd have to say being player X is a
good start. My own point of view is that a great jazz sound starts at a
great jazz player's fingertips, and that the type of guitar is of
secondary importance. Yes, I think certain guitars sound better than
others, but good guitarists have a way of transcending this.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.118 | Herrrrre's what's-his-name !! | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Tue Jun 25 1991 13:27 | 17 |
| Thanks for the replies.
As far as the Tonight Show goes, I think there is a younger, more
modern player that appears when Jay Leno is on. When Johnny does
the show the guitarists seems to be more of a traditionalist.
I would have to agree that the real key is in the fingers. Oddly
enough, I've heard a few players get a really good singin' jazz
tone with a Strat. Just listen to Stevie Ray Vaughan on his last
album "Family Style". The first song "Hard to be" features a real
swinging guitar solo that almost sounds like it was performed on
an archtop guitar, but it was his old Strat. I think the tone control
on solid-body guitars is perhaps the more under-utilized feature
that provides a lot more variety of sounds than most players realize.
My Telecaster would be almost useless without one.
Mark
|
| 1016.119 | excuse my digressions | LEDS::BURATI | You've Got Me Floatin' | Tue Jun 25 1991 15:12 | 7 |
| I have become very fond of using the neck PU on my old Tele for a
jazzier type sound. It's really smooth, much more so than the neck PU on
my Strat. I used to have a '68 Tele and the neck PU squeeled real bad
(horrible microphonics) so I never used it. Heck, this was 20 years ago
and I didn't know what I was doing anyway. But this isn't a Tele note,
is it.
bye.
|
| 1016.120 | acoustic archtop w/add-on PU | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Thu Jun 27 1991 00:16 | 13 |
| In 1016.3 Danny mentioned that an L5C with a JS of BJB pickup would
be the best choice for an instrument that would perform well in
both the acoustic and electric modes. This got me thinking. If
someone was to buy a non-electric archtop, would it be practical
to add a pickup, and a couple of controls, perhaps at a later
time? Perhaps the whole shooting match could be mounted to a
special pickgaurd which could be removed. This would preserve
the original instrument.
Did Gibson actually make L5C's with JS or BJB pickups, or was
this a custom order only ?
Mark
|
| 1016.121 | Floating pickups | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Jun 27 1991 09:59 | 18 |
| re: -.1
Mark, mounting a pickup and controls on the pickguard to eliminate the
need to modify an acoustic archtop is not only a good idea, but it is
done all the time. I have seen many archtops with two or three
pickguards-plain, one and two pickups.
Often, the neck pickup is mounted to the neck extension, as on a JS.
This requires a few very small holes in the neck that are easily filled
if the pickup is removed. A BJB pickup mounts to the pickguard and
requires no holes in the guitar.
Gibson has generally added pickup assemblies to acoustic archtops by
custom order only. Some have been available as standard items, like the
Super V BJB and the Kalamazoo Award. Both of these have a BJB, tone and
volume controls and output jack mounted to the pickguard.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.122 | Case in point | KLAATU::KELLYJ | Master of rhythm, Phd in swing | Fri Jun 28 1991 17:20 | 3 |
| I have '58 L7-C that has a JS mounted just as Danny described. The
electronics are carried on the floating pickguard. I upgraded the jack
to a conventional 280 size...it was a 'mini' and very tired.
|
| 1016.123 | the next best thing???? | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Tue Aug 20 1991 14:28 | 10 |
| In this months GP there is a full page ad for Tom Van Hoose's
book,The Gibson Super 400,Art of the Fine Guitar. It looks to be
something worth getting if your into slobering over fine Gibson
archtops.... ? :^) It's published by Guitar Player Magazine....
advertised price is $49.95 plus $5 shipping
Hey Mark J you order a copy yet? :^)
Rick
|
| 1016.124 | I'm a glutten for punishment | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Thu Aug 22 1991 00:23 | 11 |
| I skimmed the issue, but missed the ad. Good thing Christmas
is only 4 months away.
I'm debating if I really want to buy this book. Why torture
myself ? I just bought a (much needed) vehicle so it looks
like my archtop plans will have to wait a while. Actually
I paid less for this vehicle (Ford Ranger) than many Gibson
Archtops sell for.
Mark
|
| 1016.125 | theres hope.... | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Thu Aug 22 1991 09:51 | 23 |
| > I skimmed the issue, but missed the ad. Good thing Christmas
> is only 4 months away.
** Try page 136,in the Sept 91 issue
> I'm debating if I really want to buy this book. Why torture
> myself ? I just bought a (much needed) vehicle so it looks
> like my archtop plans will have to wait a while. Actually
> I paid less for this vehicle (Ford Ranger) than many Gibson
> Archtops sell for.
** Torture? I don't think so,but at least you can afford to look
at pictures. Plus there are so few decent accurate book's on
Gibson Archtops there's hope that this one may fill in some
gaps....and provide some info.... Most of these kind of books
whether about guitars or tube amp's seem to fall short of need.
You may have paid less for your Ford Ranger,but it certainly
won't go up in price like archtops have been. Plus if it
doesn't start in the morning you can't put it back in the case. :^)
Rick
|
| 1016.126 | Van Hoose' "Super 400" book | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Oct 16 1991 09:40 | 28 |
| Tom Van Hoose finally sent me a copy of his book. I've had a chance to
give it just a quick going over. It seems very nice, with much
information about the detail changes over the years. There are a number
of color plates, but most of the pictures are b&w. The color photos are
rather small.
Although there are sections on the L-5 and guitars by other makers, the
book is primarily about Super 400's. This book does not have the
wide-ranging appeal of "American Guitars", nor the Gibson overview of
"Gibson Electrics", but is worth owning if you are a collector or
player (or would be) of archtops.
There is a picture of one of my Super 400's in plate 6. I also rather
unwittingly put him in possession of the guitar shown on the cover. I
asked him not to mention this and, thankfully, he did not, since I was
in the middle of a rather sordid maneuver by a local dealer. It is a
stunning instrument and I'm sorry I didn't buy it myself. I was
disappointed to see that the 50th Anniversary model was one of the
regular ones instead of the one-of-a kind prototype. This is an
extraordinary guitar that I believe is now owned by one of the dealers
that Tom credits in the acknowledgement section.
The Heritage Super Eagle CES is for sale by its original owner--if any
of you are interested, send me mail(please don't call)
and I'll put you in touch with him.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.127 | Van Hoose again | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Jan 09 1992 15:23 | 22 |
| I'm having second thoughts about Tom Van Hoose' "Super 400" book. I
know Tom has put a lot of work into it, and it is of very high quality,
but a good editor could have made it about half the length without
sacrificing any content.
Super 400C and CES guitars were of pretty much the same construction
except for the florentine period. Rather than reference the 400C
sections, Tom repeats all of the details in the CES chapter, making it
very repetitious. The chapters on other 18" guitars is fairly
superficial and doesn't add much value.
The good points are that it appears to be very accurate, has nice
pictures, is a good reference and has my name in it. If it were a $25
book, I'd recommend it highly, but at twice that it's only for Gibson
freaks.
The Barnes & Noble in Nashua, NH had one in stock last weekend. Buying
it there saves $5, plus shipping charges. Tom charged me full price for
my autographed copy.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.128 | pickups.... | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Thu Feb 27 1992 08:56 | 5 |
| Does anyone or has anyone seen a Gibson dealer in the NE area
who has Johhny Smith floating pickups? And how much?
Rick
|
| 1016.129 | hey! sit on that visa! | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Wed Apr 08 1992 08:08 | 21 |
| Well when I got home last night I was suprised to see a new
Stewart McD catalog,which I always like to thumb through even though
I rarely find anything to buy.
On page 3 is a book "Guitars The Tsumura Collection" Limited
edition reissue. Now when I bought T Van Hoose's book on Super 400's
I kind of felt that a book for $50 was a bit excessive,and even though
I enjoyed reading about the details of the instrument and some Gibson
history I'd have to agree with some of Danny Weber's comments on the
book overall. Having heard of this offshore collector and borrowing
a copy of his second book which had a fairly limited selection of
archtop pictures... The reissue seemed to promise to have more and
perhaps nicer examples of archtops. Perhaps a "must have" for any admirer
of fine Jazz archtops? "I don't think so" is what echo's in my brain....
At a mere price of $99.95 plus postage.... unless you buy 5 or
more which would cost $88.95 plus shipping charges it would seem a bit
much for my pocketbook.... Any takers? For $100 I can buy an awful lot
of jazz cd's.....
Rick
|
| 1016.130 | Instruments are for musicians... | GANTRY::ALLBERY | Jim | Wed Apr 08 1992 08:45 | 5 |
| Does this Tsumura person play these instruments? The thought of
Gibson 400s, D'Angelicos, Strombergs, etc. (or Martins or old
Fenders, for that matter) as "museum" pieces makes my stomach churn.
Jim
|
| 1016.131 | | GOES11::G_HOUSE | Now I'm down in it | Wed Apr 08 1992 11:15 | 8 |
| I saw that too, pretty steep for a book of photos, if you ask me.
Gotta finance buying all those expensive old instruments somehow,
right?
Personally, I think it's kind of disgusting to think that someone
hoards wonderful things like that.
Greg
|
| 1016.132 | What a waste | STAR::SALKEWICZ | It missed... therefore, I am | Wed Apr 08 1992 14:49 | 12 |
| ... and they'll probably never be played again...
If I was Leo Fender, or Les Paul,. I'd be flattered at how people
colectthis stuff,.. but I *think* at the same time I'd be scratching
my head saying "why?"
They built these things for musicians to play,. not for collectors
to horde and take pictures of for the real musicians to drool over
ande pay top dollar for books about them,...
/Bill
|
| 1016.133 | | E::EVANS | | Wed Apr 08 1992 15:04 | 8 |
|
I have some mixed feelings about this. On one hand I hate to see these guitars
being taken out of use. On the other hand, some of these instruments are an
important part of music history and I would like to see some of the better
examples be saved.
Jim
|
| 1016.134 | Tsumura again | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Apr 08 1992 16:20 | 19 |
|
re: Tsumura's book. I thought it was expensive the first time around at
$50. There was some discussion around .4-something. Once again, I'll
state that it's got pretty pictures, but little educational value.
Rick, I'll be glad to let you look at my copy the next time you're over
:-)
Tsumura is a banjo player. After he collected every nice banjo he could
find, he set his sights on guitars. As a player/collector, I too
dislike the idea of nice guitars sitting unplayed, but face it, the
only reason there are still mint condition 1952 Blonde Super 400's
around is that someone kept them locked up. Sooner or later, collectors
pieces get back on the open market, usually after their values has
increased sufficiently. If Tsumura ever gets bored with his collection,
it should really disrupt the collector's market. I can't wait.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.135 | Cheaper archtops | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Apr 08 1992 16:21 | 19 |
|
Acton Music has an Epiphone "Joe Pass" model hanging on the rack. It's
a small body archtop (it looks slightly smaller than an ES-175) with a
single venetian cutaway, two pickups, ES-350T style tailpiece, rosewood
fingerboard with Emperor style inlays, gold plated parts, rosewood
bridge, L-5 style binding. The body is reasonably curly maple. The neck
shape and fretwork are typical Korean Epi: not bad, not great. I didn't
play it, so no comment on the sound, but it was stickered at under $400
(I didn't ask, but I suspect that's sans case), so if you're looking
for a cheap jazz guitar, this may be it.
In the more serious category, my dealer tells me that the Gibson "Herb
Ellis" model (ES-165) has been very hot at about $970. It's a
curly-maple 175 with a single pickup. The list on this has actually
dropped somewhat since it was released.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.136 | | PHAROS::SAKELARIS | | Fri Apr 10 1992 11:39 | 10 |
| re .135
>>In the more serious category...
There's that word "serious" again. Ever since someone pointed the use
of this word a couple of years ago, I can't help but notice it
everytime I see it and chuckle. Lets call a spade a spade here guys. I
suggest defining the logical for serious to "expensive".
"sakman"
|
| 1016.137 | that's what I said | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Apr 10 1992 16:19 | 4 |
| My use of the phrase " more serious" meant "more serious dollars", so
we seem to be in complete agreement on this point.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.138 | list price ? | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Mon Apr 13 1992 11:08 | 7 |
| Is $960 list or average selling price ?
I noticed a new product in the Stewart MacDonald catalog...an archtop
bridge with a built-in transducer pickup. Is is available in rosewood
and ebony. Any thoughts ??
Mark
|
| 1016.139 | Stewie MC d's | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Mon Apr 13 1992 11:36 | 16 |
| re Is $960 list or average selling price ?
I'd say average selling price,even though locally I was quoted a little
over 1k.
I think your talking about the Fishman transducer for an archtop,I've
heard that you can buy just the piezo chips that can be installed into
your current bridge. The other option was to use the pickup that
Heritage install's in there SAE model. Where you have individual bridge
saddle pickups. For some reason I remember this being called the
Michael Christian pickup....
Oh yeah the person who was talking to me about the "fishman" was not
impressed....
Rick
|
| 1016.140 | '66 LGO for sale | ROULET::AUSTIN | It's a killer machine | Tue Apr 14 1992 06:52 | 7 |
| I was driving home last night and passed a store that had
an acoustic guitar in the front window for sale. I stopped and
checked it out and saw that it was an old Gibson- a '66 LGO. It
looked to be in real nice condition. They're asking $450 for it.
Is that a fair price for this guitar?
Alan
|
| 1016.141 | "vintage student model?" | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Tue Apr 14 1992 07:41 | 4 |
| Fair? Well in 1967-8 this all mahogany guitar listed for $179 with
chipboard case as I remember a kid down the block got one. They were
essentially a bottom of the line instrument for students. I think for
that kind of money you could find a better acoustic.
|
| 1016.142 | ramblings | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Apr 15 1992 07:48 | 14 |
| An LG-0 typically sells for $300-$350 in nice condition, but why would
you ask in the Gibson Archtop note?
re: Fishman bridge pickup. The Fishman in my Martin MC-68 sounds great,
but I don't think it's a good idea for an archtop. An archtop bridge
doesn't work like one in a flattop, and the acoustic sound of an
archtop develops in front of the guitar, so the sound at the bridge is
not a good representation of the guitar's tone. If you want a good,
amplified acoustic sound, a flattop seems to be the way to go. If you
want a good, amplified archtop sound, a magnetic pickup does a better
job. If you want a loud, acoustic, archtop sound, set the action high
and play hard :-)
Danny W.
|
| 1016.143 | oops... | ROULET::AUSTIN | It's a killer machine | Wed Apr 15 1992 12:22 | 5 |
| re. last
Sorry for the intrusion :). Guess I should've asked in topic 1000.
Alan
|
| 1016.144 | many ;^{)> | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Mon Apr 27 1992 11:00 | 41 |
|
Ever since Danny entered 1016.0 in Dec of '88 I've been
lusting after an Archtop guitar. Well I finally took the plunge
this weekend. Friday night I picked up the Want Advertizer,
mainly to make sure my ads went in. There was a listing for
a Gibson ES175, 1988 model in exc. condition. The seller was
located in Oakham, which is only about 20 minutes west of my
house in Worcester. Last night I drove over to look at it. It
is blonde in immaculate condition, with a brown Gibson case
with pink lining. The case has a flap which covers the top of
the guitar, and a Gibson USA decal on the outside. Both the
guitar and case are flawless. Not a scratch on either.
The guy was asking $800.00 for it, and admitted that he
was selling it to pay bills. After playing the guitar for
about 2 minutes, I managed to talk him down to $750.00...SOLD.
The guitar plays exceptionally well, but needs heavier
gauge strings to really sound good. It currently has .009's
on it which are way too light for an archtop. The only thing
that confused me about it was that is only has one strap button
at the tailpiece. I guess they expect you to tie the strap to
the headstock, but I would prefer a second button. Danny, would
it hurt to add a button at the neck heel ?
This was a very good weekend for me. I got a call from
a guy interested in buying my Guild acoustic. He drove right
over from Marlboro, and after about 5 minutes bought the Guild
for my asking price. I am now in the market for a new acoustic,
and have my mind pretty well set on a Takamine. Actually, if
a couple more of my sales go through, I'll be shopping for
2 Takamine's....A 6-string and a 12-string.
I'd like to thank Danny, Rick Busenbark, and everyone else
that gave advice and put up with my ranting. I'm glad I bought
the Gibson and not an import.
Mark
|
| 1016.145 | your welcome.... | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Mon Apr 27 1992 13:43 | 34 |
|
> The guy was asking $800.00 for it, and admitted that he
> was selling it to pay bills. After playing the guitar for
> about 2 minutes, I managed to talk him down to $750.00...SOLD.
Congrats Mark,Even though I have not paid attention to the market lately
I remember seeing and playing a beat up blonde ES175 for $850 a few years
ago. It really sounds like you got a good deal and have many years of playing
it to look forward too. I got quoted $1100 for a blonde ES165 at one point,
last year. My Es175 has been collecting dust due to another guitar I'm
playing,which my wife has threatened to have surgically removed from my
body! :^)
> Would it hurt to add a button at the neck heel ?
I had this done to my ES175 years ago and I have regreted it ever since,
not that it hurt the guitar in value but I have rarely through the years
used a strap with it as I sit down to play it most of the time. When I
had it done the guy suggested putting it in at an angle so as not to cause
a split in the grain. However I'm not sure this was the right thing to do?
I currently use D A'ddario Chromes for strings,light gauge starts with an
.011. It is a flatwound string(remember those?)and I get a very good jazz
sound with them. I change them every few months when I'm gonna record or do
a session,roundwounds sounded too bright for my tastes.
With your Twin this must be a nice combo....
Enjoy! :^)
Rick
|
| 1016.146 | Congrats!! | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon May 04 1992 10:21 | 12 |
| Finding a nice 175 for that price is a very good deal these days.
I have installed strap buttons on some of my archtops, but not all. As
Rick said, they're better played sitting down. If you want to do it,
you can put it right into the heel cap, or into the neck block on the
back of the body, like on a 335. Drill a suitable pilot hole and
lubricate the screw threads. If you are going to use a strap, it is
much better to add the button than to use the headstock.
I use D'Addario Jazz Lights (XLS 590) on most of my archtops.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.147 | Gibson L-10 prices? | GANTRY::ALLBERY | Jim | Tue Jun 16 1992 17:36 | 15 |
|
I played a an 1930-something L-10 today -- a wonderful guitar.
Characteristics were:
o Accoustic
o No cutaway
o Appeared to be refinished (all in black)
o A couple of nicks, but overall, good shape for a 50+ year old
guitar.
The store was asking $1500, but said they'd sell it for $1200 cash.
I have no idea what the current market value of this instrument is.
Is $1200 a decent price?
Jim
|
| 1016.148 | Cheap at twice the price | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Jun 17 1992 16:16 | 4 |
| Virtually any Gibson carved-top guitar is worth more than $2k these
days. Even refinished, an L-10 sounds like a bargain at $1200.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.149 | Gibson acoustic archtop ? | FLYWAY::CHAOT::WIEDLER | they could never be blue | Thu Jul 23 1992 10:35 | 42 |
| I am new to archtops, although I always liked the look and sound of these
beautiful instruments. Now, since 2 days I have such an instrument at home -
a friend left it "on loan" for the next 2 years while he is in Africa, but he
also would sell it if I am interested. As I said, I have no ideas about
archtops, but I quite like the woody, jazzy sound of this one... now I would
like to know more about this instrument. A short description:
It is a quite old looking acoustic archtop guitar, two "F" holes, no cutaway,
no pickup, maple (?) sides and back, solid spruce top, sunburst finish, 14
fret neck with mother of pearl block inlays. The MOP inlay on the headstock
says
The
Gibson
and a sort of vase with flowers, "Grover" tuners. The "i" in "Gibson" is very
close to the "T" in "The".
There is an old printed label visible through the F hole saying:
Gibson ______ Style _______
Number ______ is hereby
guaranteed against faulty workmanship...etc etc.
... Gibson Inc. Kalamazoo Michigan USA
The lines (_____) of the label have some not printed (stamped?) writing which
is not very well visible anymore: 1st: "GUITAR", 2nd: "L 5" (the "5" is well
visible, but the "L" looks a bit blurred) , 3rd " 705" (but it looks like one
or more numbers could be faded at the beginning).
My friend reckons it is a Gibson F-5 from around 1930. Could that be? Are
there some more details how to find out? I am also not sure which parts are
still original - the guitar looks old and used, but in okay condition,
onlya bridge and tailpiece look newer.
Any idea what such a thing is worth? And: what kind of strings would you use
on it (it came with nickel roundwound steel strings)?
Any hints from the experts are appreciated.....
Thanks,
FeliX.
|
| 1016.150 | L-5? | SAHQ::ROSENKRANZ | Less is More | Thu Jul 23 1992 11:46 | 19 |
| It sounds like an L-5. These were introduced in 1922 and produced
through 1958 (the non cutaway version). This was a Loyd Loar design
and may have had his signature on the label if it was pre 1924.
The first ones had a dot inlay from the 5th fret , slanted logo,
silver plated metal parts.
Goldplated parts introduced in 1925. Maple back and sides introduced
by 1925.
block inlay beginning at 3rd fret, individual tuners 1929
Square end fingerboard mid 29.
bound f-holes by 1936
Gold-plated tailpiece with silver center insert, 3 engraved diamonds
on tailpiece, Grover enclused tuners 1937
|
| 1016.151 | L-5 | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Jul 24 1992 07:33 | 15 |
| If it has a 16" wide body with blocks starting at the third fret, it is
from between 1929 and 1934. If it has a 17' wide body with a block at
the first fret, it is an "Advanced" model made after late '34.
Since hardware is so easily changed, it is not a reliable indicator of
vintage. It would help if the serial # were complete (5 digits).
The current value of the earlier instrument is around $3000 , the
Advanced model as high as $4000, assuming good condition for either.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.152 | More infos... and thanks! | FLYWAY::CHAOT::WIEDLER | they could never be blue | Fri Jul 24 1992 08:21 | 24 |
| Re: last few
I had a closer look at the guitar again and it seems to be a 16" body. There
are 6 block inlays, starting at 3rd fret. No bound F holes. The individual
Grover tuners are open. No gold plating (left). The frets are not very worn,
probably been refretted (?).
So my friend seems to be right that it is a Gibson L-5 from around 1930. I
try to find out the complete serial number - does anybody know if there is a
common way to read faded labels in instruments? Maybe I ask an antique
instrument specialist/restaurator (I can imagine that they have got similiar
problems with old violins etc.) I saw once that they use special UV(?) light
to read faded ink in antique books/manuscripts.
Any suggestions about ideal strings for this old beauty....? And should I use
guitar polish on the old finish?
Thanks for your hints...
FeliX.
P.S. Does anybody know anything about Gibson's use of the name "The Gibson"
vs. "Gibson" on the headstock ? I have seen both versions on Gibson Mandolins
as well.
|
| 1016.153 | The Gibson | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Jul 24 1992 16:43 | 11 |
| The history of Gibson Logos could make a good basenote topic by itself.
In fact, I think there is one.
All instruments had "The Gibson" slanted from around 1908 to end of
'20's. A changeover period to straight across completed in 1933.
Another changeover to just "Gibson" right after that. Many variations
after that. "The Gibson" was re-introduced on Citation in 1969 and has
been on some re-issue mandolins and banjos since then
Danny W.
|
| 1016.154 | Thanks! | FLYWAY::CHAOT::WIEDLER | they could never be blue | Tue Jul 28 1992 10:58 | 3 |
| Thank you all very much for your infos!
FeliX.
|
| 1016.155 | L-45? | RICKS::CALCAGNI | Ripablikans fore Kwael | Thu Sep 10 1992 12:58 | 8 |
| Anyone familiar with a Gibson model L-45? It's acoustic only, no
cutaways, dot inlays, sunburst finish. This particular one has been
dated 1952. I haven't actually seen the instrument myself, it was
described to me over the phone. I checked all my written sources and
could not find a reference to this model anywhere. Any info would be
most appreciated.
/rick
|
| 1016.156 | L-45 (+3) | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Sep 14 1992 16:46 | 5 |
| Sounds maybe like it could be an L-48 ?????
Danny W.
|
| 1016.157 | L-50? | TBJVOA::TAKAYAMA_R | Ro Takayama | Mon Oct 05 1992 03:47 | 15 |
|
I got "L-50(?)" 2 years ago. Although I'm not sure it is "L-50".
The axe sounds very well, has Gibson logo in headstock, but there's
no label inside body. As described below, it has L-50's chracteristics.
Is there anyone who can tell the model? Would you please help me?
I'd like to know further.
Body : 16" width, non-cutaway, sunburst finish
Top : Solid spruce
Back and rims : Maple ( not sure solid or not )
Neck : Mahogany
Fingerboard : Rosewood with plastic DISH inlay and white binding
/Ro
|
| 1016.158 | L-5 again | FLYWAY::CHAOT::WIEDLER | they could never be blue | Mon Oct 05 1992 06:38 | 17 |
| I could find out more about the (faded) serial number of the old L-5
mentioned in .149: I am almost sure it says 91705. According to Gruhn's Guide
to Vintage Guitars (which I got in the meantime) this would indicate a
manufacturing date of early 1934 - just before Gibson introduced the larger
17" "advanced" model. The serial number would match other specific details
like the label type ("Gibson, Inc.") which Gruhn says to be 1933 and later.
There was a talk about adding "floating" PUs to an acoustic archtop earlier
in this topic - the "Jonny Smith" and the "BJB" PUs. Now I wonder if such a
PU would make sense on this 16" non-cutaway L-5 (for my non-professional
purposes...). Do these PUs require modifiction of the pickguard ? And has
anybody got infos about where these PUs can be ordered from and what's their
price ?
Thanks for your help.
FeliX.
|
| 1016.159 | | KDX200::COOPER | I even use TONE soap !! | Mon Oct 05 1992 07:17 | 3 |
| I may be halucinating, but I beleive Johnny Smith lives here in
Colorado Springs - Am I imagining things, or ?? Greg?
jc
|
| 1016.160 | clearance? | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Mon Oct 05 1992 07:19 | 10 |
| Johnny Smith pickups attach to the neck with a flat bar on either side
of the neck. The Bruce J Bolen pickup had a flat piece coming off of
the pickup to the right which attaches to the pickguard. With any
acoustic archtop I would be concerned about the distance between the
strings and top of guitar. There may not be enough space to fit certain
pickups as these instruments were designed to be acoustic.
Rick
|
| 1016.161 | JS | GOES11::G_HOUSE | Arms raised in a V | Mon Oct 05 1992 10:34 | 11 |
| > I may be halucinating, but I beleive Johnny Smith lives here in
> Colorado Springs - Am I imagining things, or ?? Greg?
Yes, Johnny Smith lives somewhere around here. As I remember, it's
somewhere outside of the Springs, but not very far.
He used to own Rice Music before Larry Rice bought it. It was Johnny
Smith Music back then. Last I heard, he still dropped in there
occasionally.
Greg
|
| 1016.162 | | KDX200::COOPER | I even use TONE soap !! | Mon Oct 05 1992 11:05 | 6 |
| Thats what I thought - I was down there one day, and this old guy came in
with a FLAWLESS and awesome archtop (you guys would've FLIPPED!) - I kinda
chuckled after he left and asked who he was... Thought that name rang a bell.
:)
jc
|
| 1016.163 | | GOES11::G_HOUSE | Arms raised in a V | Mon Oct 05 1992 14:43 | 5 |
| Yeah I've seen him there a couple of times (at least at the old store),
looks like an old cowboy. I didn't get to hear him play though...
(bummer)
Greg
|
| 1016.164 | Met 'Im Personally! | COMET::MESSAGE | You can't dust for vomit | Mon Oct 05 1992 15:43 | 17 |
| Yeah, I was in Johnny Smith Music one afternoon, talking with the man
hisself! I was admiring the collection of archtops in the case, and he
told me some history on each, like, "This one was made for me by John
D'Angelico himself", etc. All the while he was talking, he kept
"noodling" on the fretboard. Then, he asked me if I wanted to play one
of them! Yeah, right! I felt like Helen Keller, asked if I wanted to
fly a 747 full of people! Johnny's "noodling" was incredible beyond
words, and I'm a dedicated I-IV-V type. So, I politely said, "No, I've
got buttond on my shirt that might scratch the back, and I'd feel just
awful, but thank you so much for the offer!
BTW, the reason J.S. moved to Colorado Springs was that he didn't feel
that NYC was a proper place for his daughter to grow up! So, this
absolute MASTER of the fretboard moved to the great west, an' the rest
is history.
Bill
|
| 1016.165 | Pickups | FLYWAY::CHAOT::WIEDLER | they could never be blue | Tue Oct 06 1992 06:28 | 18 |
| Re: .160
> With any
> acoustic archtop I would be concerned about the distance between the
> strings and top of guitar. There may not be enough space to fit certain
> pickups as these instruments were designed to be acoustic.
But I think there are some special pickups which are especially designed to
fit on acoustic archtops (see note .121 by Danny W.).
I looked through the "Ultimate Guitar" book yesterday and noticed a photgraph
of a D'Angelico Excel with a pickup mounted (attached to the neck by a little
bar at the left side) with controls on a separate unit (not on the
pickguard). There is also a photo of a Guild archtop with a very similar
pickup but with controls on (through) the pickguard. Any more infos about if
such devices are still available / recommended ?
FeliX.
|
| 1016.166 | | KDX200::COOPER | I even use TONE soap !! | Tue Oct 06 1992 07:03 | 7 |
| Bill - the archtop he had there that day was one piece of work!
Thing had enough pearl and abalone to make a momma oyster swoon!
I think it was a D'Angelico, but not sure - it was big. He didn't
think much of my pink Ibanez. :) :)
jc
|
| 1016.167 | Gibson L-7 has this feature | LUNER::KELLYJ | Don't that sunrise look so pretty | Tue Oct 06 1992 07:03 | 9 |
| My L-7 Gibson has just such a bar as Felix mentioned: it carries a
small pickup which is about the width of the fretboard and attaches to
the bass side of the neck.
Controls (volume, tone) are mounted on the rear of the floating
pickguard. Connection to amplification is is through a mini-plug; I
made a short mini-to-female guitar adapter cable which is tie-wrapped
to the trapeze tailstop...sounds ugly, but actually isn't and prevents
any mods to the guitar itself.
|
| 1016.168 | well... my experiance is.... | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Tue Oct 06 1992 07:13 | 16 |
| The pickup which you are describing is a De Armond(Roadmaster?) I
have one on my Guild CA100. Unless someone is making a "reissue" of
this pickup I believe they are very hard to find and somewhat
expensive. I was lucky enough to find one used from a luthier who
wasn't interested in archtops and traded me something for it. It was
missing the mounting bar but I had one made. There was also a volume
tone assembly which I chose not to use. BTW it's a single coil pickup.
I originally had a floating Bill Lawerence pickup on the guitar,but
did not care for the tone. I looked into the Bartolini replacement and
after measuring the distance from the top to the strings I decided there
wasn't enough space for their pickup. I'd just recommend measuring
everything before shopping around. Maybe someone can supply the
dimensions of the JS/BJB floating pickup?
Rick
|
| 1016.169 | pickups | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Oct 06 1992 09:52 | 24 |
| A BJB pickup is 1" X 2.5" x 3/8" deep. Rick is right that some acoustic
archtops have too shallow a neck angle to fit a neck-mounted pickup (or
a pickguard-mounted pickup close to the neck). Thirties L-5's and Super
400's have the neck extension flat on the top, similar to a Les Paul.
On guitars like these, it might be necessary to have the pickup mounted
somewhat farther along towards the bridge, although it is always
possible to keep the action very high to allow the strings clearance..
DeArmond pickups are hard to find these days, though there is still
some NOS and some repro's available. Benedetto seems to have a supply,
but I don't think he'll sell them without a guitar attached.
re: Johnny Smith--GP recently had a picture of Johnny's D'Angelico. I
know of a copy that is identical except that it doesn't have the
engraving on the inlays and doesn't have a pickup. It is incredibly
beautiful, has stunning wood, sounds gorgeous, and despite having a
neck "like a plow handle' (Johnny's description), plays like a dream. I
don't think I've ever seen or played a finer guitar. While it doesn't
have the historic appeal of Johnny's guitar, instruments of this
caliber are rarities in their own right.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.170 | pickup and early L-5 | FLYWAY::CHAOT::WIEDLER | they could never be blue | Wed Oct 07 1992 04:23 | 11 |
| The distance between the arched top and the top level of the
fingerboard end is approx. 12 mm (0.47") on this L-5 - so
would a 3/8" (9.5 mm) BJB PU fit ? Are they mounted
top-level to the fingerboard? should there be some space
between arched top and pickup? If somebody has got a
supplier's/manufacturer's address... Thanks for your help.
FeliX.
|
| 1016.171 | L-7 | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Oct 20 1992 15:31 | 23 |
| This is a response to 2345.21, but I thought it would be easier to locate
here.
The L-7 is an L-5 without the fancy stuff. Although it is lacking the
L-5's multiple binding, ebony fretboard, fancy tailpiece and ornate
headstock inlay , it does share the body size and is made of the same
type and quality woods. It is 17" wide x 3&3/8" deep, with a 25.5"
scale length. Early ones (pre-'35) were 16" wide.
In the last few years there has been much more interest in these
guitars: besides being fine instruments, they are much cheaper than an
L-5 of similar vintage. That doesn't make them cheap. A non-cut L-7
from the '40's will run from $1250 to $1500 and an L-7CN from the '50's
could go as high as $3k. With a '50's L-5CN in the $6k range, that's
actually a bargain!
From a playing and sound standpoint, these give up nothing to their
fancier sisters, so if you're looking for a top-quality carved-top, and
don't care about the dress-up, an L-7 could be a good choice.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.172 | Van Hoose news | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Jan 25 1993 12:12 | 16 |
|
I spoke to my friend Tom Van Hoose recently. He told me that he sold
his collection of Super 400's to Scott Chinery, a collector who is
building a guitar museum in NJ. While I was stunned by the news, I can
understand why Tom did it--the average price per instrument was $12.5K!
I think is more than top dollar for even such a fine collection as this
one, Mr. Chinery apparently paying a premium for the guitars as a set.
Tom still has some fine guitars and has been helping Gibson get its
"Historic Collection" going. One of the exciting things he mentioned is
that the new Wes Montgomery L-5CES will be priced around $4500; much
lower than I had expected. On the other hand, the Citation will be
around $16k. Ouch!
Danny W.
|
| 1016.173 | money talks | RICKS::CALCAGNI | L'Angelo Minestronio | Mon Jan 25 1993 12:41 | 2 |
| Amazing! From what I've seen Chinery already had an obscene collection
of vintage guitars before this deal.
|
| 1016.174 | What a hobby... | GANTRY::ALLBERY | Jim | Tue Jan 26 1993 08:05 | 3 |
| Where did Chinery get all of his money?
Jim (who'd like just ONE D'Angelico, Super 400 or Stromberg)
|
| 1016.175 | we're in the wrong business | RICKS::CALCAGNI | L'Angelo Minestronio | Tue Jan 26 1993 08:19 | 10 |
| Scott Chinery made a ton of money on some sort of bodybuilding or
health food product; don't know his age, but from photos he looks
younger than most of the people I know from this conference. He's
been running full page ads in vintage mags soliciting fine American
vintage guitars for his collection. The ad shows Scott's living room
with the walls literally dripping with high-end vintage arch-tops and
such. He seems to be into collecting other stuff too; one of his
prized possessions (also in the ad) is the Batmobile!
/rick
|
| 1016.176 | Am I disgusted or jealous? | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Feb 04 1993 13:38 | 7 |
| Chinery owns Cybergenics--Joe Piscopo is doing ads for them.
An unreliable source told me Chinery has spent over $5M!!!!! on
guitars, so far, and has a full-time caretaker for his collection.
Sounds like a good job.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.177 | Unless it's that granite model | GOES11::G_HOUSE | Big cheese, MAKE me! | Thu Feb 04 1993 16:08 | 3 |
| I donno, you can't really get a good pump from playing guitar.
Greg
|
| 1016.178 | archtop prices | ZUOPCS::CHAOT::WIEDLER | Swiss Euronaut | Fri Feb 05 1993 07:21 | 10 |
| Yesterday in a Zurich/Switzerland guitar store window:
Gibson L-5CES, sunburst, rounded cutaway, 2 humbuckers, (don't know vintage)
Price tag: sFr. 10.5K ($7K)
Is this the market ?
FeliX.
|
| 1016.179 | 'fraid it is the market | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Feb 05 1993 13:54 | 4 |
| A nice, non-vintage L-5CES runs about $4500, and vintage ones could be
twice that, so $7k in Zurich doesn't seem out of the question.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.180 | Examine inside of archtops ? | ZUOPCS::CHAOT::WIEDLER | Swiss Euronaut | Tue Feb 09 1993 04:12 | 16 |
| Over the weekend I re-read some of the very informative notes especially by
Danny Weber. After reading notes like .27 in this topic (comparison of two
L-5Cs) I have a question which I ask here because an answer might be of
interest to other noters as well. In that note Danny Weber writes:
"The interior work on both (Gibson L-5Cs) is of the same high quality."
Now my stupid question: how exactly do you examine the inside of a guitar -
especially an archtop ? Technically, it doesn't seem very easy to examine
parts like top bracing etc. in an archtop guitar... do vintage collectors
have periscope eyes ;-) or some special equipment like doctors use to
examine the inside of ears etc. ?
Just curious...
FeliX.
|
| 1016.181 | no magic involved | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Feb 09 1993 06:25 | 5 |
| I use an inspection mirror and a light source which is just a small
lamp on the end of a pair of wires. Items like these are available from
supply houses like Stewart-MacDonald or electronic parts stores.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.182 | | GOES11::G_HOUSE | It's NOT a tumor!! | Tue Feb 09 1993 09:45 | 7 |
| I got a little inspection mirror on a telescoping handle with a swivel
ball at an auto parts place that I use to examine the inside of
acoustics. I think the mirror itself's a little big for getting into
an F-hole guitar, but it works fine for other types. It was a lot
cheaper then what I'd seen from S-M and electronics places...
Greg
|
| 1016.183 | The checks in the mail | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Tue Feb 09 1993 10:38 | 5 |
| So Danny, Have you placed an order for a new Citation yet ?
Inquiring minds want to know !!
Mark
|
| 1016.184 | re: .183 Citation | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Feb 09 1993 15:42 | 14 |
| Dear Mark:
When pigs fly
Sincerely,
DRW
Seriously, at $16k, they're cheap compared to an original, and I
wouldn't be surprised if they are better guitars, since the originals
were made at what is generally conceded to be a time of low quality in
Kalamazoo. Even so, that's well above what I'd like to pay for one.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.185 | ES-175 - still bargains ? | ZUOPCS::CHAOT::WIEDLER | Swiss Euronaut | Thu Feb 11 1993 02:41 | 13 |
| I have started to hear and also play more jazz recently... and so I might
soon look for an electric archtop guitar which is useful for jazz - just a
good quality, "not too expensive", nice utility instrument.
I think a Gibson ES-175 (or variant) could be a good choice, and also
used/vintage ones can be found here in Switzerland. The Gibson Howard
Roberts models sound like interesting guitars as well - but I have never
seen one for offer in this country (small market).
Are the prices for a nice ES-175 (and variants) still in the same range (as
discussed around notes .140ff) ?
FeliX.
|
| 1016.186 | Jazz Boxes | SAHQ::ROSENKRANZ | Rock with Gene & Eddy | Thu Feb 11 1993 07:04 | 5 |
| I have been nosing around for a 175 as well, and have seen prices
recently ranging from $650-$1200 US for used ones in good condition.
Major variations I have seen have been in finish and neck
material/construction.
|
| 1016.187 | A new record (price) | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu May 13 1993 08:20 | 9 |
| Scott Chinery has allegedly paid $150k for the "Teardrop" D'Angelico.
This is probably as rare and desirable an archtop as can be found;
although I don't personally like the body style, it is undeniably a
fine example of the archtop as art.
On the other hand, the price is a little high for a guitar that's never
been played by either Elvis or Jimi.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.188 | | SAHQ::ROSENKRANZ | Rock with Gene & Eddy | Thu May 13 1993 09:02 | 13 |
| Is this the D'Angelico with a horn (for lack of a better word) sticking
out of the lower bout? I may have seen this guitar at the Dallas
Vintage Guitar show. Chinery had his Batmobile there along with a
pristine Gretsch White Penguin (Batman and the Penguin, get it?).
This brings up an interesting topic of what makes a guitar valuable?
In the case of the Teardrop, it is of course rare. And of course,
D'angelico without a doubt made superb guitars with superb workmanship.
However, the teardrop appendage doesn't likely improve the playablility
of this guitar. It is quite simply rare. On the other hand, according
to George Gruhn, rarity in itself does not necessarily result in a
high price. For my tastes the teardrop, was not very attractive.
|
| 1016.189 | Guitar Musuem open ? | VOYAGR::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Thu May 13 1993 11:39 | 5 |
| Does anyone know if Scott Chinery has opened his Guitar Museum
to the public yet ? If so, where is it located, and what hours
are they open ?
Mark
|
| 1016.190 | re: .188 | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri May 14 1993 07:44 | 13 |
| Yes, this is the D'Angelico with the horn and Chinery did have it on
display at the Dallas Guitar Show.
Gruhn's comment about rarity is true enough, but rare versions of
highly collectible guitars are not what he was talking about. If this
guitar had been a Benedetto or Lacey, it is doubtful that it would be
worth as much as even a standard model from one of these makers, but
the fact that it is such an unusual instrument from D'Angelico puts it
in a class by itself. However, I'm not convinced that anyone but Chinery
would have paid quite so much for it.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.191 | The rest of the story? | WHOS01::DECOLA | | Sun May 16 1993 18:53 | 13 |
|
I was down at the local SAM ASH music store in White Plains N.Y.
for their monthly "Over 30 Guitar Club" gettogether. There was an older
gent playing some of the acustics and we started talking about guitar
prices and I mentioned how Martin was coming out with this new limited
edition going for around 18k. He said that was nothin', his brother had
just dies recently and left a one of a kind D'Anjelico(sp) to his kids.
They in turn brought it down to Mandolin Brothers on Statin Island to sell
it for them on consgnment. Said someone bought it for 150k. The kids got
100k. Sounds like this may be the same guitar, no?
-John-
|
| 1016.192 | Gibson ES165 Herb Ellis Model | POWDML::DAGG | | Thu Jun 24 1993 12:29 | 49 |
|
My search for a jazz axe has ended (at least for awhile!)
After reading the information in here, and shopping around
for the last couple months, I ended up getting a new ES165
from Mandolin Brothers. It cost a little more than I'd planned to
spend originally, but it may be a reasonable
compromise considering what people are asking for good
condition ES175s.
It came set up pretty well from Mandolin, with low action and
D'Adario J21s. Richard Stanley inspected it for me, and
gave it a qualified endorsement, since he felt the neck
rod had too much tension in it, due to a natural bend in the
neck that it had to compensate for. For this reason he
was not able to completely straighten the neck. He says
that as many as half the guitars he sees have rods that don't
really work. The rest of the inspection was fine. Richard
did a very thorough job, and he really knows his stuff.
After much agonizing and discussion (for which I was
billed of course), I decided it was keeper, based on what
I've seen available for the same price, and my reaction to
playing it.
Moral of that story might be- I won't be paying for
any more pre-sale inspections! Since I'll go on my
own gut anyways. . . ;-) But at least I know what
I'm getting into.
One thing about this whole neck issue is that after he
straightened out some of the bend with the rod, this caused
some fret interference with notes played in the lower
positions. Apparently, the problem frets had been within
the previously concave portion of the neck. So the easiest
fix was to raise the action at the bridge just a little. Some
fret work might also help, but by that time I was really broke.
It could be the best settup for this beast might depend on
where its easiest for me to ignore a problem on the neck,
such as where I do the least playing.
Out of curiosity, are there any different theories about the best
fret shape? Like different shapes for sliding (gliss) as opposed
to bending? Do people who mostly slide like lower frets than
those that mostly bend? What are "jumbo" frets and what
advantage do they give? Does anyone prefer a flatter fret?
Dave
|
| 1016.193 | New Gibsons | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Oct 01 1993 15:34 | 18 |
| replies .51-.54 discuss single-pickup archtops. After years of
being prodded by jazz players, Gibson finally has a Wes Montgomery
model, which is an L-5 CES with one humbucker. They have already
shipped some, and reports from several players I know is that they are
outstanding, and they are quite a bit less expensive than the regular
L-5 CES (list somewhere in the high 4k's.) I have one on order, so I'll
be sure to write it up, probably around New Year's.
There's a reissue Tal Farlow out. Doesn't excite me, but a '60's one
will set you back $8k or so, and will have a skinny neck, too, so the
new one may be a real deal for someone who craves a guitar with a
scroll.
Gibson has been making some Johnny Smiths under another name (Le
something-or-other? It'll come to me). Don't have any info on them yet.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.194 | | ROYALT::BUSENBARK | | Tue Oct 05 1993 08:54 | 23 |
|
> replies .51-.54 discuss single-pickup archtops. After years of
> being prodded by jazz players, Gibson finally has a Wes Montgomery
> model, which is an L-5 CES with one humbucker. They have already
> shipped some, and reports from several players I know is that they are
> outstanding, and they are quite a bit less expensive than the regular
> L-5 CES (list somewhere in the high 4k's.) I have one on order, so I'll
> be sure to write it up, probably around New Year's.
Danny,
I seem to remember reading in Tom Van hoose's book that the
originals Wes M. single pickup L5's were actually L5c acoustic's with a
humbucker installed after the fact. :^(
Does this mean they were x braced guitars? and is Gibson going to
replicate the previous mentioned modified guitar? Or are the L5's of
that period parallel braced?
I wonder why they are quite a bit less expensive?
Rick
|
| 1016.195 | L-5C w/ humbucker | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Oct 05 1993 13:31 | 35 |
| Rick:
Early L-5's were cross-braced, but the '39 Premiere model went to
parallel bracing and they've been that way since, except for some custom
instruments and L-5 CT's.
Even with parallel bracing, the bars on an L-5C were too close together
to allow a humbucker to be mounted in the neck position, There were
several standard solutions:
1) Build the guitar with the braces spaced farther apart
2) Cut the bars and add reinforcement outside the pickup
3) Cut the bars and leave them that way.
4) Install the pickup closer to the bridge.
Gibson did both 1 & 2. If the guitar was ordered with a humbucker
originally, they'd built it like a CES, with wider spacing between the
braces. If the pickup was an add-on, they'd cut and reinforce. I thinks
Wes's guitars were done by method #1.
I've seen a number of #3's done by hacks. It leaves the top weak and
messes up the tone. #4 is structurally okay, but doesn't put the pickup
in the best position for good tone.
I have no idea why the Wes model is so much cheaper than an L-5 CES,
but I'm taking advantage of it before they change their minds. My
dealer actually has one in, but he said it's not as curly as the first
one he'd had, so I'm waiting for the rest of his order (he's expecting
three more.)
Danny W.
|
| 1016.196 | | E::EVANS | | Mon Nov 29 1993 10:44 | 18 |
| Some nice archtops in Mandolin Brother's Vintage News that came last weekend:
1967 ES-125 w single P-90 $675
1934 Epiphone Deluxe $1,875
1929 L-5 non-cutaway 16" $2,995
1988 L-5CES $4,995
1938 D'Angelico Style B $9,500
1939 D'Angelico New Yorker blonde, non-cutaway $16,000
1984 D'Aquisto new Yorker $27,500
1954 D'Angelico New Yorker cutaway $40,000
It also looks like Brazilian rosewood guitars are going through the roof.
They have a NEW D-45 reissue of a 1939 (#70 of 91) for the "old" price of
$8,900. Gulp!
Jim
|
| 1016.197 | The one that got away! | SANDZ::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Mon Feb 14 1994 10:33 | 5 |
| There was a 1978 Gibson ES175 in the Want Ads last week. The guy
was asking $450 for it. I called, but it was already gone. Deals
like this don't come around every day.
Mark
|
| 1016.198 | New Gibson Archtop - Any Good? | POWDML::DAGG | | Wed Feb 16 1994 13:50 | 10 |
|
Anyone had a chance to try one of the newly made Gibson "Wes
Montgomery" Model (L5CES?)? This is apparantly
part of the "Historical Collection", and Mandolin
Bros has had a couple in their catalog recently.
Any comments on workmanship, playability, investment
value, sound?
Dave
|
| 1016.199 | re: Wes Model | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Feb 16 1994 14:47 | 25 |
| see 1016.193
My dealer has received three of them so far which I have rejected
because the wood was too plain. The guitars were nicely made and played
well and sounded good, but I've gotten to the point where I won't buy a
new archtop unless the wood is spectacular.
Tom Van Hoose, who was the motivator for Gibson's release of this
model, told me that he has had a couple that had outstanding wood, but
Tom wanted more for them than I wanted to pay. My dealer thinks that
Gibson may be saving the fancier wood for the more expensive L-5 CES,
although the Mando Bros. appear to have had some nice ones.
As far as investment value goes, over the years, Gibsons, and most other
fine archtops have appreciated in value rather substantially, but, as
a stock prospectus would warn, "past performance is not an indicator of
the future." Gibson artist model archtops have had mixed
results--Johnny Smiths have done as well as L-5's, Tal Farlows have
done somewhat better, but Kessels and Lopez's have done much worse. The
Gobel has become extremely expensive, but not because George's name is
on it. L-5's with single set-in humbuckers are also quite expensive, so
the Wes model looks like a good way to go if you're in the market for
such an instrument, but the future prospects are anybody's guess.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.200 | Gibson dellux?? | ESKIMO::KLO | don't get me wrong | Thu Feb 17 1994 09:20 | 5 |
| I saw a Gibson Dellux I didn't ask for the price but it has fine tuning
on too. Is it a vintage guitar or not? If it is I gonna head ti ask fir
the price.
KL
|
| 1016.201 | just dreaming I guess | POWDML::DAGG | | Thu Feb 17 1994 11:18 | 10 |
|
RE: .199
Thanks for the scoop. I wish I were in the market for
something like that! The most I'm probably considering
is a trip to NYC just to go to Mandolin Bros and do
some drooling.
Dave
|
| 1016.202 | Wes Montgomery Model | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Mar 10 1994 07:20 | 59 |
| It's taken me longer to get a Gibson Wes Montgomery model than I had
expected. My dealer has had a number of them come in, but they all had
plain wood. He finally shipped me one that had reasonably figured sides
and back, although the neck is just slightly figured. The top is
extremely close-grained spruce.
The guitar is a straightforward L-5C with a single set-in humbucker at
the neck, two gold top-hat knobs for tone and volume controls and a
rim-mounted jack. The tailpiece is the traditional style L-5 type--not
the newer style with the ebony block-- with the silver insert engraved
"Wes Montgomery." The bridge is a gold ABR1 on an ebony base with pearl
inlays.
This is pretty much the setup a Wes had on his custom L-5Cs, though I
think one of his TOMs had plastic saddles.
The color is Gibson's "Vintage Sunburst," which is a rather boring
black into yellow that I find less attractive than a real vintage
sunburst. When I first looked at the guitar, it appeared a little
strange; it finally occurred to me that there was no pickguard on it,
nor were there holes drilled for one! I found it in the case, along
with its hardware. When I told my dealer about it, he said "Uh oh." He
has another customer who had custom-ordered one in Wine Red with the
pickguard unattached, so it sounds like Gibson screwed up his order.
The case is the deluxe brown one with red plush interior.
The neck is a little rounded, like a late '50's model. It's
comfortable, but it's not my favorite neck shape. The frets are nicely
done, without the square edges that have been on most late-model
Gibsons, and the binding edges are rounded instead of sharp, which I
hope is now the norm. It's a nice, fast, neck that makes the guitar a
good player. The neck angle is quite high, which I like, but it does
put the TOM pretty far up the screws, even with a low action.
Overall workmanship is very good. I haven't found any serious flaws,
but there are some dimples in the binding and the heel cap seems
slightly tilted.
The guitar comes strung with a medium gauge Gibson round wound set ( I
haven't measured it yet, but I'd guess .012" -054".) Acoustically, the
guitar is adequate, but nothing special. Plugged in, it has a smooth,
dark sound that should be fine for mainstream jazz guitar, but a little
dull for newer styles. With my MK IV mini-stack (1 open and 1 closed
12" cabinet) it feeds back strongly at A below middle C on any string,
even at fairly low volumes. I didn't try to adjust the amp to reduce
it, but I did compare it to a JS single; despite the latter's floating
pickup, it had much less feedback. Attaching the pickguard may moderate
this a little. To be fair, I'll need to try some different amp
settings, too, but I thought the Smith sounded fine without changing a
thing.
My take on this guitar is that it represents a good value in today's
market. With even a garden-variety, mid-'70's L-5 CES selling for
$4500, the Wes offers better quality at a lower price. I'd probably
keep it if it had a more interesting color, but I think I'll send it
back. While it's nice, it's lacking that feeling of something special
that I look for in archtops these days.
Danny W
|
| 1016.203 | Getting to like it | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Mar 14 1994 09:54 | 17 |
| So a week later I still have the Wes Montgomery. I keep telling my
dealer I'm going to send it back, but I've been enjoying playing it, so
I keep putting it off. Interestingly, the feedback on the A below
middle C has moderated substantially all by itself. New archtops tend
to be a little tight and it's possible that playing it has changed the
resonance, but I've never heard this dramatic a change in such a short
time. The smooth sound is really nice and the simplicity of the guitar
and lack of extra hardware is a bonus on this type of instrument.
I haven't mounted the pickguard yet--if I decide to return the guitar,
I'd just as soon not bother, although my dealer told me he didn't mind
if I install it. Sooner or later I have to decide about it, but I'm
starting to lean towards keeping it. This is one that is turning out to
be better than I thought.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.204 | Gibson ES135 low rent archtop. | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Mon Mar 21 1994 10:51 | 7 |
| I noticed in a catalog this weekend that Gibson has added a new
Archtop model known as the ES135. It is similar to the old ES125,
but has a set of P100 pickups. The pickups have black covers w/ears.
Fairly ugly IMVHO. Still, might be a good cheap arhtop, especially
if your a George Thouroughgood wannabe.
Mark
|
| 1016.205 | L-4CES | SAHQ::ROSENKRANZ | Go ask Alice.... | Tue Mar 22 1994 13:43 | 10 |
| Is anyone familiar with Gibson's L-4CES? I noticed it in their
historic collection. It appears to be a ES-175 with a carved spruce
top. Has anyone compared it to an ES-175. Can one expect a significant
difference. I'm familiar with the 175, and was wondering if the L-4
might serve as good value for those of us that can't afford a
Super 400.
(Danny- Might you have any comments on this animal?)
jim
|
| 1016.206 | L-4 CES | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Mar 23 1994 09:48 | 24 |
| The L-4C, a cutaway version of the venerable L-4, was introduced at the
same time as its electric cousin, the ES-175, in 1949, and discontinued
in the early '70's. It had a carved top and solid maple sides and back,
while the 175 had a laminated maple body.
The L-4 CES is carved-top version of the current ES-175, with mahogany
back and sides. It has a tailpiece similar to the L-5 and has gold
hardware, so you could look at it as an upscale 175. I've heard of some
recent ones having maple bodies, which would make them more desirable
to me.
This is very subjective. I find I prefer the sound of smaller electric
instruments made of laminated wood to those with solid woods. I also
prefer the sound of maple-bodied 175's to those with mahogany, so I've
been unexcited by the L-4CES. The maple-bodied version may be better,
though.
The L-4 CES is much less expensive than a Super 400, so if you want a
carved top Gibson, it represents good value. It would be a good idea to
compare it with a 175, if you could, and to see if you can get it with
a maple body.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.207 | Wes gets a pickguard | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Mar 24 1994 10:36 | 48 |
| Over the weekend I installed the pickguard on the Wes Montgomery. It
turned out to be more of a PITA than I had hoped--the little block on
the underside that screws onto the threaded rod was installed in the
wrong place--looks like it was intended for a Super 400. I had to break
it off and re-glue it, which took several tries until I was happy with
the location. If you look at a number of Gibsons, you'll notice that
the exact mounting location of the bracket varies from guitar to
guitar. Some are right in the waist, others more towards the lower
bout. I put it a little below the waist, aimed towards the end of the
bridge saddle.
The pickguard itself is a long model, which is notched for the single
pickup, and looks really nice on the guitar. I always think that
archtops sans pickguards look wrong, so adding it helped make up my
mind to keep the guitar.
Weber's Pickguard trick:
Regardless of what you think about resting your right hand on the
guitar, I like to do it: Gibson calls it a "fingerrest," right? The
pickguard on the Johnny Smith Double model needs to be high to hold the
bridge pickup near the strings; this also provides good right-hand
support. I've gotten to like this so much that many years ago I
developed a simple method to simulate this on my other guitars without
modifying or damaging them in any way. I simple loosen the bracket and
the top mounting screw and insert a piece of open-cell foam under the
pickguard near the bridge to provide some lift, and then partially
re-tighten the screws until the pickguard is at the right height. On
archtops, I sometimes use a longer screw and spacer for the top to keep
more parallel to the strings.
Two cautions:
Some types of foam can damage the finish. I don't have any idea how to
identify them. The stuff I use I have had for years and it has not done
any damage--if I'm lucky, I have a lifetime supply and won't have to
evaluate.
Gibson pickguards tend to warp over time, whether you raise them or
not. To keep from accelerating this I put the foam in line with the end
of the support bracket and use a small amount of foam and tighten the
screws lightly.
I do this on all my guitars with floating fingerrests, even the Les
Pauls. It just takes a minute and makes my guitars work better for me.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.208 | Gibson Historics | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Apr 06 1994 11:18 | 37 |
| Gibson has finally published a catalog of their Historic Collection
instruments. The last catalog showing archtops was in 1988 and the
examples used as illustrations were not inspiring. The new catalog
includes a Premiere and a non-cut "1939" Super 400, Super 400 CES,
"1934" L-5, L-5 CES, Wes Montgomery, L-4 CES, ES-295, Tal Farlow and
Citation. All the guitars look really nice, and some are actually
available, though delivery is still very slow: the waiting list for a
Citation is a year, for a Farlow 6 months.
I took a look at a Super 400 CESN and it was as good as any I've seen.
The wood was choice, the workmanship first rate and it played well and
sounded good, too. Except for the $12k list price, it was everything
you could want from a carved-top electric.
The L-4 CES is now catalogued with maple sides and back, so it should
prove to be a good choice for someone looking for a lower cost
carved-top.
Although Gibson has insisted that Historic dealers sell at list price,
some have either been discounting outright or offering inflated
"trades." The word I heard is that Gibson has quietly been "allowing"
dealers to discount of they don't advertise it. This would put the
actual selling price of the aforementioned Super 400 CES at $7200,
which is in the price range for a good condition late '60's model, so
it's not as unreasonable as it might sound. The Farlow would be under
$2k, which is a third the price of a '60's model, so it could be a real
bargain if you want a 17" laminated-top guitar.
Gibson also has several non-Historic archtops: the LeGrande (a Johnny
Smith renamed for a pianist :-)) , the ES-175, ES-165 and ES-135
After a period in which the very existence of Gibson's archtop line was
in question, the fact that they are delivering good quality guitars
again is great news for Gibson fans.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.209 | Pricing revisited | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Jun 07 1994 08:37 | 46 |
| Rather than rathole the discussion under the Guitar Center note, I
thought I'd continue the thread about archtop prices here. There's no
doubt that $6500 is a lot of money. When I wrote the basenote, prices
on carved-top Gibsons had just climbed from the $1250 or so they had
been for quite awhile to around $2500 for a garden variety L-5 CES. See
1016.8, for example. After only six years, a $2500 L-5 CES would be
sold in a femto-second. (This makes the current pricing on the Wes
Montgomery model seem especially attractive--buy one before Gibson
wises up.)
The high prices of archtops is based less on collectors appeal than on
intrinsic expense. The materials and labor that go into a high-quality
carved-top guitar are going to ensure that the prices stay high
regardless of other market forces.
You can buy a Sonic Blue Strat reissue for $1k (I'm guessing here) or
an original for $25K (this is not a guess.) The biggest difference
between the two is that collectors have bid the price up on the
originals and if they lose interest in them, the prices would come
crashing down (this has already happened once in the Strat market.)
Although a similar situation exists on certain archtops (D'Aquistos,
D'Angelicos, Strombergs, some '50's and early '60's Gibsons and Gibson
Citations, the fact is that much of the climb in archtop prices is due
to the expense of making them.
Several times during the history of this note I suggested that prices
had stabilized. Each time I was quickly proved wrong. Some of the
changes have been amazing. Examples:
Benedetto Cremona: 1990--$6k, 1994--$12.5k (even higher for a new
order)
Gibson '60 L-5CT: 1990--$7.5K, 1994--$17.5k
Gibson '59 L-5C: 1990--$6k, 1994--$20k
D'Angelico New Yorker: 1990--$25k, 1994--$60k
If Gibson continues to deliver high-quality guitars at the current
prices (L-5 CES= $%k, S400 CES=$7k), I think it will keep the market
for non-collectable archtops under control. Let's hope we can check
back here in a few years and discuss it again.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.210 | | E::EVANS | | Tue Jun 07 1994 09:08 | 8 |
|
$60K for a D'Angelico New Yorker sounds way too high. The Guitar Center
has one for $10K and I was offered another one for $15K a week earlier.
Both looked clean. I guess a lot depends on who has the guitar and who
is buying it.
Jim
|
| 1016.211 | re: .210 | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Jun 07 1994 09:56 | 18 |
| I doubt that the Guitar Center has a D'Angelico New Yorker for $10k,
but they might have a copy of one--these are being marketed as
D'Angelico New Yorker II's and help illustrate the high prices of
archtops.
The next time someone offers you a clean New Yorker for $15k, please
let me know. While the $60k I mentioned was for a cutaway, blonde model
in immaculate condition, even a non-cut average condtion one will
easily sell for over $20k.
All guitars with the same name are not the same. Just as the range of
Super 400 prices runs from about $5k to $25k, there is a wide range of
D'Angelico prices. The difference isn't just who is buying and who is
selling, but how rare and desirable the instrument is.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.212 | | USPMLO::DESROCHERS | Mine's made outta unobtainium! | Tue Jun 07 1994 10:10 | 9 |
|
Always wondered how D'Angelico was pronounced.
Dee-ann-jel'lico
Dan-juh-lee'-co
Dan-jel'-lico
Number 3?
|
| 1016.213 | | LEDS::BURATI | human crumple zone | Tue Jun 07 1994 10:41 | 3 |
| > Dee-ann-jel'lico
This one, me thinks.
|
| 1016.214 | more on prices | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Jun 07 1994 16:00 | 35 |
| A call to Guitar Center confirms that the "D'Angelico New Yorker" is a
modern copy, most likely made by Heritage.
I'm sure it's a fine guitar, but comparing it to a real New Yorker is
like claiming that one can buy an L-5 CES for $1000 because there's an
Ibanez copy of one at We Buy Guitars for that price. Note that even
though it is a copy, it is a very expensive guitar, which again helps
prove my point about archtops. If you must have something that looks
like a New Yorker, it might be a bargain at that price, although I
doubt that it has the investment potential of a real D'Angelico.
When discussing prices, it helps to compare the same items. The price
examples I gave were for the *same guitar* , not similar ones nor
copies. When I suggested that Guitar Center's $8500 price for a new L-5
CES is high, it was based on the fact that it is above the current list
price for a new one, and, even assuming that it is an above average
specimen, it would be hard to figure out why anyone would pay that
much. As for whether Guitar Center would consider haggling over the
price, that's why I mentioned that the price was out of line. BTW, my
dealer sells this model for $4575 but I added a little for the
possibility that this is an unusually spectacular instrument and would
be worth a premium.
One of the things I've tried to accomplish throughout this note is to
provide information to help noters identify top quality archtops and
I've continued to stress that knowledge is the most import tool you can
have when considering the purchase of one. Being unaware of the
difference in value between a guitar made by John D'Angelico and a
modern reproduction points out just how important this knowledge is.
Danny W.
BTW, everyone I've ever spoken with pronounces it Dee-an-jel' ico, but
that doesn't means it's right. :-)
|
| 1016.215 | Reasonable archtop? | TRLIAN::HICKERNELL | Good rhythms to bad rubbish. | Wed Jun 08 1994 09:21 | 7 |
| Danny,
In note 1016.8 you indicated that at that time, a 70's ES-175 was the
most reasonable (cheap, that is) way to get into a Gibson archtop. Is
that still generally true now, some 5-1/2 years later?
Dave
|
| 1016.216 | Entry Gibson archtops | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Jun 08 1994 16:16 | 16 |
| Another possible choice is the ES-165 Herb Ellis, a single pickup version
of the 175 with gold plating and the zig-zag tailpiece.
This lists for about $1800, so it should sell for $1100.
Although I have sometimes seen a Want Ad listing for a 175 lower than
this, they're hard to find this cheap in good condition. I think a new
165 or 175 will be a better instrument than most from the '70's.
A fancier version is the ES 775, with two pickups, gold plating and
Howard Roberts style inlays and tailpiece. I haven't figured out what
this is supposed to cost.
Gruhn's prices for recent, used 175s have been around $1200.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.217 | Happy ES-165 Owner | POWDML::DAGG | | Thu Jun 09 1994 08:50 | 15 |
|
RE: ES-165, I have one and really like it for
my purposes (playing in my basement).
I saw my first of these at last year's
guitar show. I made an offer, which they
turned down, and I ended up getting a new
one cheaper from Mandolin Bros.
Before I bought a Gibson for 4 or 5k, I'd also check
out guitars by Roger Borys, a maker in Vermont.
I'm a huge Gibson fan, but alot of pros have
used the Borys guitars, like Emily Remler.
Dave
|
| 1016.218 | Hmm... ES-165, eh? | TRLIAN::HICKERNELL | Good rhythms to bad rubbish. | Thu Jun 09 1994 09:58 | 8 |
| Thanks, Danny. Maybe someday I'll be able to afford something like a
165.
re: Borys
If I'm not mistaken someone who notes here owns a Borys or two. %^)
Dave
|
| 1016.219 | re: -.1, .2 | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Jun 09 1994 11:24 | 5 |
| This Borys guy sounds vaguely familiar.
See .12, .18, .73, .75, .87 and probably a couple other places.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.220 | more on Historics | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Jun 17 1994 14:37 | 68 |
| In an earlier reply, I had compared a '59 L-5C with an 1987 model and
found that the '87 was well made but didn't feel or sound as good as
the '59. In fact, I sold the '87 soon after.
Gibson's archtop output during that period was so low and erratic that
the quality of that particular guitar seemed moot. The output decreased
even further towards the end of the decade and I stopped looking at new
Gibson archtops on the assumption that they'd be about the same as the
'87.
After getting my Wes Montgomery, I've been more interested in checking
out some of Gibson's recent production. Although my first reaction to
the Wes was lukewarm, the more I play it the more I like it. The Wes
has a much better feel to the neck than the '87 L-5C did--the binding
is properly shaped and not square as so much of Gibson's '80's
production was; the body tuning is better, and the finish, while
two-tone, is very attractive and not as plastic looking. The body wood
is very attractive, too.
I've been able to examine and play several "Historic" instruments. A
1992 Super 400 CESN was beautiful. It had a vintage-looking tint to it
that I really like, superb woods, an outstanding neck and excellent
sound. For some reason, Gibson has chosen to fit this model with a bent
bracket rather than threaded rod for the fingerrest, but that's about
all I could find to complain about. The top has unusually tight,
straight grain in the center, changing a to wider and somewhat wild
grain near the edges. This looks great and is similar to the tops on
many of the finer guitars from the '40's and '50's that I have played.
Equally outstanding were a matched pair of Cherry Sunbursts, an L-5 CES
and a Super 400 CES from 1991--among the last built by Jim Triggs while
he was with Gibson. The body woods are stunning, the finishes superb
and very vintage-looking, they are great players and have very good
sound (both were in desperate need of strings, so I think they would
have actually sounded excellent if given a chance.) The L-5 has the
ebony insert on the tailpiece instead of the normal (and IMO better
looking ) silver insert, but this could be easily changed. It was hard
to decide which one I liked better--whichever one I was playing at the
time seemed perfect, until I forced myself to try the other. Then I
couldn't put that one down.
Virtually everything I have seen in the Historic series has exceeded my
expectations. To get a sanity check I spoke to Tom Van Hoose, who has
had a number of recent Gibson archtops pass through his hands. He
agreed with my assessment. He recently had a Citation that he said was
outstanding, and was a far better instrument than any of the original
Citations he has played (which is most of them.) Considering that most
original Citations were built at a time when Gibson quality was at its
nadir, this is no surprise. Tom said the quality of the carving, body
tuning, finish, wood and workmanship were the best he's ever seen from
Gibson. A sad note--he shipped this guitar to someone and when it
arrived the top was smashed.
Tom currently has a Historic Super 400PN. Just to refresh your memory
he had been the owner of the stunning Super 400PN that has been
featured on the cover or centerfold of several recent publications,
including Tom's Super 400 book, and which I had played and evaluated
before he bought it (I know the syntax is fractured, but you get the
gist). The reason I didn't buy it first is that the neck is set at a
very shallow angle on these early Premieres, which I find
uncomfortable, and which makes it hard to achieve a low action. Anyway,
Tom told me that while the new ones are appropriately vintage-looking,
the neck angle is more modern, with the result being a guitar that both
looks and plays right. This is exciting news, though it would be more
exciting if Gibson didn't have a year or longer backlog on these
instruments.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.221 | questions questions | RICKS::CALCAGNI | really useful engine | Fri Jun 17 1994 15:07 | 12 |
| Danny, how can you tell that the Super 400 was built by Jim Triggs?
Is there some marking on the guitar that tells you this, is there
something about his work that's easily recognizable, or is it just
that you have a pipeline to the behind-the-scenes at Gibson?
Also (although this isn't the right topic), have you had a chance to
check out any of the Historic semi's? I think they're doing a 335
and a 355. I would *real* interested if they were producing versions
of these instruments that compared favorably with the vintage ones.
/rick
|
| 1016.222 | answers, answers | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Jun 17 1994 16:07 | 17 |
| The labels in the guitars were signed by Triggs and there was a picture
of Triggs with them as well as a certificate stating that Triggs had
personally built them.
I haven't heard of Historic semi's, but there are suppossed to be
Centennial 335s and 355s. These are outrageously priced (one dealer
quoted me $7500). My regular dealer doesn't plan to order any because
of this.
They seem to be behind on delivery, as usual. The 355 was due in June
and I was going to take a look at it, but I'm not interested at that
price.
My Van Hoose 355 Custom is as historic as possible and it was much
cheaper, too.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.223 | | RICKS::CALCAGNI | really useful engine | Fri Jun 17 1994 16:57 | 3 |
| Oops, yes I guess I'm confusing the Historic with the Centennial.
And I'm not interested at that price either.
|
| 1016.224 | Historic '39 Super 400 | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Aug 15 1994 11:40 | 45 |
| I recently spent a weekend with an Historic Collection Super 400.
The guitar is supposed to be a reproduction of a 1939 non-cutaway. It
had a number of nice features, like a heavily-engraved tailpiece,
engraved heel cap Brazilian rosewood bridge with MOP inlays on both
base and saddle, pre-war logo and headstock shape, long, marbled
pickguard, highly-figured curly-maple back and a nicely done "Cremona
brown" sunburst finish. The neck was very nicely shaped and extremely
comfortable and the sound was excellent--very loud and full. The
woodworking was well done--the biggest flaw I found was that one of the
truss-rod cover screws was over the truss rod cavity, so it was screwed
into air.
Surprisingly, it fell short in several areas. The top binding was 3 ply
instead of the usual 7 ply that would be expected on a Super 400. This
is no small point: with a $13,000 list price, the guitar should have
the expected amount of fancy stuff. Speaking of which, the spectacular
back was not matched by the sides, which had an okay pinstripe curl,
nor the neck, which was plain on one half and moderately curly on the
other. While it was nice of Gibson to recreate the old peghead shape,
they did not follow through and taper the headstock and use a wood
overlay to make it look authentic. The extra engraving on the tailpiece
is lovely, but still not up to the level of the originals.
Gibson made this guitar with a very shallow neck angle, making it
impossible to achieve a low action with the supplied bridge. Early
Super 400's were made for rhythm players who played hard and loud, so
the guitar is probably too authentic in this regard, but I think that
it should be possible to lower the bridge 'til the strings lay flat on
the frets, and that's not possible with this guitar. My normal solution
to this is to take 0.10" off the bottom of the saddle, but the saddle
inlay precludes this. In addition, the guitar was shipped poorly set
up, with far too much neck relief and inadequate slots in the nut for
the supplied heavy-gauge strings. Playability out of the case was close
to zero for me. Adjusting the truss rod improved the relief, but fret
rattles appeared around the 12th fret before the neck was straight, and
the action was still high, though it probably met Gibson's factory
spec. This is the first new Gibson I've seen in a long time that wasn't
well set up. It's too bad--as I said, the neck had an excellent feel.
This wasn't even a near miss for me--in this price range, I expect a
much better job. It certainly was no dog, but no gem, either. I sent it
back.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.225 | 3 new Gibsons | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Sep 22 1994 07:56 | 90 |
| I got to play with three recent Gibson archtops that represent an
interesting spectrum of choices. Two are reproductions of highly
collectable models and the other is a new take on an old product. The
results were two hits and a near miss:
'94 Super 400C Western Sky:
In the past, Gibson had built a few Super 400 guitars with an oval
soundhole. There's one pictured in Tsumura's book on page 74, and Lloyd
at Voltage Guitars once showed me a blonde one that was very nice. The
Western Sky is a limited (I don't know what this means) run of these.
It has a standard Super 400 neck and body with a large oval soundhole,
nicely bound and purfled, instead of the usual f-holes. Other unique
features include: a pearl white, marbled, multibound fingerrest, which
is cut to fit around the soundhole; star inlays in the bridge base; a
truss-rod cover engraved "Western Sky", a Fishman bridge pickup; and a
honey sunburst or white finish.
This one was sunburst, with a spectacularly curly back and neck,
modestly figured sides and a very tightly-grained top. It needed some
truss-rod work to make it playable and the nut needs to be cut deeper
for the heavy-gauge (.013"-056") bronze strings, but the neck has
excellent feel and it plays well at a low acoustic action (5/64" b&t).
The sound is bright and loud and somewhat different from an f-hole
guitar, with a little more sustain, not as much cut. It responded very
well to being played hard, without getting congested.
There was some discussion of the Fishman somewhere else. My prediction
was that it wouldn't sound like an archtop. Plugged into my Mk IV, it
had a very bright string sound and there was more body sound than I had
expected. It didn't sound like an archtop, but I liked the sound it
made. There are no controls on the guitar, just an endpin jack output.
It's possible that it would sound better with an amp designed for
acoustic guitar pickups and it would be interesting to mix the sound
from a BJB pickup or a mic to provide more body .
All-in-all, this is a really nice instrument that should be perfect for
country rhythm guitar. It's $3,300 cheaper than the '39 Super 400C I
previously reviewed, and is even fancier, so go figure. This is a
flattop substitute for people who hate flattops, like me.
'93 George Gobel L-5 CT:
The original L5-CT, an cherry-red L-5 with 2.5" body depth at the rims
and a 24.75" scale, has become a very expensive indulgence, with nice
examples going for $13-16k. This one is a '93 Custom Shop model that's
a lot cheaper. Compared to the 1960 model I used to own, it has nicer
wood, a better neck and similar workmanship. Where my old one was fully
acoustic, this has a BJB pickup, which is a good idea, since the guitar
has a thin acoustic sound, as did the original. The label says "George
Gobel", something the originals did not. It came equipped with several
interesting problems: the pickguard is designed for the longer scale
length of the standard L-5, so the bridge can't be positioned for
proper intonation, and the BJB is shifted off to the bass side so that
it doesn't pick up the high E string. Both problems are easily fixed by
replacing the pickguard and installing the pickup on it in the correct
location. I'm surprised Gibson didn't catch this, but, since the guitar
isn't new, it's possible that the BJB and pickguard assembly isn't
original. In any case, the guitar itself is beautiful, and is a
stunning example of what Gibson can turn out these days.
'94 Tal Farlow
Original Farlows have also become very expensive, running $6-10k. The
new Historic Collection version looks quite authentic, with the double
crown headstock inlay, upside-down cloud inlays on the rosewood
fretboard, scroll binding, fancy pickguard and pearl and rosewood
tailpiece inlay. Even the knobs look right. Only the modern tuners give
it away. This particular one had a nicely-figured top and neck, mild
curl on the sides and little on the back. With a Viceroy Brown
sunburst, it's a very pretty instrument (though the color looks more
faded than the original ones were originally.) It also sounds great and
at around $1850, would seem to be an excellent buy for someone looking
for a large, fancy, plywood jazz guitar. There was one problem I had
with this sample that should be considered before you have your dealer
order one, and that's the neck. Besides being very wide (1.75" at the
nut), it is deep and very "cheeky" on the treble side. so much so that
after ten minutes of playing it, I had severe hand cramps from the
pressure of the neck against the side of my hand. I compared it to a
Johnny Smith with the same neck width, and the Smith felt fine.
I had mentioned in an earlier reply that a friend had the prototype of
the Farlow reissue, which was more like an ES-350 than a Farlow, and
that he had been unhappy with the neck. I spoke to him after playing
the new one and he had the same complaint as I, as did Dr. Van Hoose,
who had tried several of the production models. Not everyone may find
this objectionable, but be sure to play it for awhile before buying it.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.226 | pictures | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Oct 06 1994 11:54 | 26 |
| Saw Gruhn and Carter's new picture book on electric guitars at B&N over
the weekend. Opened it up an was shocked to see a picture of my Barney
Kessel Custom. The reason I was shocked is that it's not my picture and
it's credited to Dave Hussong (Fretware). Dave did have it in his
possession at one time, but it's my guitar and it's actually nicer
looking than in the picture.
I also saw two guitars that I don't own, but would really like to. One
is the florentine Super 400 CESN that's owned by Lloyd "Voltage"
Chiate. It may be the nicest guitar I've ever seen and I've been trying
for years to get Lloyd to sell it to me, but he won't (I've stopped
trying).
Seeing the other makes me want to scream. It's the florentine L-5CEST
that used to belong to Timm Kummer of Guitar Trader. He offered it to
me many years ago at what I thought was much too high a price--$1750,
at a time when a regular L-5CES sold for a grand. It is a beautiful,
one-of-a-kind instrument, which is like a Byrdland with a full-scale
neck. Timm sold it to a collector in England, just before I decided I'd
buy it anyway. It could easily fetch $20k today, and every time I see a
picture of it I kick myself. Remember this the next time you pass up a
rare guitar because you think it's overpriced
Danny W.
|
| 1016.227 | | E::EVANS | | Thu Oct 06 1994 12:39 | 5 |
| Say more about the Gruhn and Carter book. I assume that this is the followup
to Acoustic Intruments book. Sounds like a good Christmas present.
Jim
|
| 1016.228 | Gruhn's Electric Guitars & Basses | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Oct 07 1994 15:09 | 9 |
| Grun & Carter's book is a nicer than average picture book, with better
pictures, more accurate text and a higher quality of instruments than
most books of this type would have. It's strangely organized and,
despite being subtitled "a pictorial history", doesn't seem to go in
chronological order. It's a step up from "The Ultimate Guitar Book" and
worth owning just for the pictures of the three guitars previously
mentioned :-).
Danny W.
|
| 1016.229 | | SOLVIT::SNORAT::OLOUGHLIN | The fun begins at 80! | Fri Oct 07 1994 15:32 | 6 |
|
Danny,
Have you ever considered doing a show? Boston Guitar Show maybe?
Rick.
|
| 1016.230 | another Farlow | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Oct 25 1994 10:18 | 16 |
| re: -.1 I have no interest in guitar shows.
I got a chance to try yet another Historic Collection Tal Farlow. This
one was a rich, wine red, with modest curl visible in the top and
sides. It looked quite striking, sounded terrific, and seemed to have a
slightly smaller neck than the sunburst one I tried previously. Even
so, I found the neck causing hand cramps after a few minutes of
playing, and, rather reluctantly, I returned the guitar.
In this color, the guitar was priced at $1425, which makes it a real
bargain in the archtop world. This is worth checking out if you get
along with the neck better than I did.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.231 | More Historics | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Nov 10 1994 15:15 | 53 |
| Having become thoroughly obsessed with Gibson's Historic Collection
instruments, I checked out a few more recently:
A Wes Montgomery. Labeled Wine Red, it is really a nice, dark cherry
(the Farlow I previously reviewed was truly Wine Red, with a definite
burgundy color). The back was outstandingly curly, with
perfectly-matched chevrons, and the sides were also nicely flamed.
Outstanding top, too. The neck was plain, but the cherry color makes
this acceptable. The workmanship was excellent, as was the sound. The
neck is a little rounded, but still quite comfortable, and the setup
was perfect. An outstanding instrument, it was priced about the regular
discount price for a Wes, and appeared well worth the premium
Another Wes Montgomery, this one marked with a Custom Shop stamp, which
is now more garish-looking than it used to be. All the features
appeared stock--the custom part was the wood, which was of astonishing
quality. The back was as nice as the previous one, and the neck had the
most stunningly curly wood one could imagine--stripes about an inch
wide, and so intense that they look black despite the natural finish.
The sides have a thin curls that fade towards the edges, giving an
unusual, but attractive look. Another outstanding top. The neck was a
little flatter than the WR and met my definition of a perfect feel.
This guitar also sounded great and has excellent overall workmanship.
It carried an even higher premium than the WR one, and was also worth
the difference.
Just a general note about the Wes models. All the ones I have played
have a great sound. The single, set-in pickup still allows a nice
acoustic warmth without sounding quite as bright as one with a floating
pickup. The pickup also has a reverse slant compared to a two-pickup
model, which may affect the sound, too.
One more guitar I tried was an blonde L-5 CES signed by Jim Triggs.
Each of the Triggs-built Gibsons I've played has been outstanding, and
this one was no exception. I couldn't find the slightest flaw in
it--even the usual slight ledge where the binding meets the sides was
absent. Again, the back and top woods were exemplary. The only
disappointment was the sides have only a very faint curl, though they
do have some nice medullary grain. Even so, by any standards this was a
gorgeous guitar, with another outstanding neck and great sound.
When I started the basenote, I wasn't optimistic about the future of
Gibson's archtop production. From '84 to '89. I had seen just a couple
of decent instruments and had become more interested in the work of
small shops, feeling that they held the future of the archtop. What
I've seen of Gibson's output since 1991 has been of extremely high
quality, and although not every one has been outstanding, they appear
to have made more top-quality guitars in the last three years than they
(or anyone else, for that matter) had made in the last decade, which
are generally cheaper than vintage counterparts and equally well made.
If I had foreseen this, I would have built a bigger house :-)
Danny W.
|
| 1016.232 | S400P Showstopper | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Dec 20 1994 15:57 | 73 |
| If you're thoroughly sick of reading about stunning Gibson archtops,
time to <next unseen>. For those stronger of heart, read on.
Trade shows have always given guitar makers a chance to do a little
"showing off". The first White Falcon was built for a trade show to
demonstrate how over-the-top Gretsch could be, but the guitar generated
enough interest to become a catalog item. Manufacturers frequently
build extremely ornate versions of standard models just to demonstrate
their capability and recently, all the Custom Shops have been making
exotic instruments for the shows.
Gibson's Custom Shop decided to build a 1939-style Super 400P in
transparent Cherry Red for a recent show to provide a place to mount a
re-issue of the Floating (McCarty) Fingerrest Pickup Assembly. For
those not familiar with this, it was Gibson's first method of
electrifying acoustic archtops without modifying them or changing their
acoustic performance. It had a single-coil pickup built into a
pickguard with the wiring and controls. Available from 1948, it could
be installed on any model, and was factory standard on the model L-7E.
There were one- & two- pickup versions. Personally, I find them ugly,
but I guess they were effective, although I think the DeArmond assembly
was more popular. Gruhn's books have pictures of some guitars with
these assemblies.
Anyway, the Custom Shop apparently didn't have the guitar completed in
time for the show. For some reason, the McCarty couldn't be used so
they installed a mundane, but more practical, BJB and told my dealer
about it, who asked me if I'd be interested. Asking me if I'd like a
giant, Cherry Red guitar is like asking Lestat if he'd be interested in
a little blood. When it arrived at my dealer's, he called me and said
it was incredible and hated to have to ship it off to me (but somehow,
he managed:-)).
Unpacking it, I was surprised to find that the case, which came in a
lovely brown "case-keeper" cover, was a reproduction of the original
Geib case, including the real leather. The last '39 S400 repro I had
received came in the standard Gibson plush case, which is actually
offers better protection, but doesn't have the nostalgic charm of this
one.
Upon opening the case, my reaction was "Wow! That's a lot of red!" A
Super 400 is really too big for such a bright color, but it is
beautiful in a gaudy sort of way. It gives new meaning to the word
"loud" applied to a guitar. The tailpiece is heavily engraved and the
pickguard is the narrow style in a mottled finish, both of which help
offset the large expanse of red top. The top is excellent spruce, the
back and neck are highly flamed, the sides just moderately so. The
headstock has the '39 style inlay and shape, while the neck
construction is two pieces of maple with a single spacer dyed black;
just what you'd expect for '39. The workmanship is fine, although not
quite as perfect as the several Triggs/Gibsons I've seen.
Some details are wrong, like the lack of engraving on the heel cap and
the TOM bridge on ebony base (Gibson is sending an inlaid rosewood
bridge, which was supposed to have been included). Obviously, the BJB
pickup is something of a modern touch, too. The 1/4" jack assembly
won't fit on the narrow pickguard without touching the top, so it is
actually recessed a little into the f-hole, which makes inserting or
removing the plug a scary operation.
No matter how much I like the looks of a guitar, it still comes down to
how well it plays and how good it sounds. This guitar excels in both
areas. It is loud (in the musical sense of the word) acoustically, and
very well-balanced electrically, with no wolf tones or unusual feedback
problems. It has a perfect neck shape for this type of instrument--fat
and comfortable--which I found difficult to stop playing. Compared to
the non-cut '39 Super 400 I reviewed previously, it is in a different
league entirely and, with Gibson's bizarre pricing policy, was $1200
cheaper (and half the price of a "standard" Super 400P!). I recently
decided to sell my red Borys B420, so this makes a perfect replacement,
albeit a little larger. Did I mention that it is gorgeous?
Danny W.
|
| 1016.233 | | RICKS::CALCAGNI | The animal trainer and the toad | Wed Dec 21 1994 07:21 | 3 |
| Nice read, thanks for the early Christmas present!
/rick
|
| 1016.234 | Epiphone Re-issue? | GANTRY::ALLBERY | Jim | Tue Jan 03 1995 15:28 | 5 |
| I noticed an Epiphone acoustic archtop re-issue in one of the plethora
of musical instrument catalogs that I recieve (can't remember which).
Does anyone have any additional info?
Jim
|
| 1016.235 | '39 Emperor | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Fri Jan 06 1995 09:13 | 46 |
|
Jim, Epiphone does in deed have a re-issue of the 1939 Emperor
acoustic carved-top guitar out. It has no cutaway. It features
the old-style syncromatic tailpiece. This is in addition to the
Emperor model that has been around for the last 5 years or so
which is a cutaway with set-in humbucking pickups and a trapeze
tailpiece. I believe both Emperor models are made in Japan. They
also offer a Joe Pass model. I believe the Emperor is one of the
few carved-top guitars on the market that can be purchased for
less than $1000.00.
I have a recent Epiphone catalog at home which lists several new
models. A few of the new models are actually made in USA, while
the rest are made in Japan. There is a Sheridan which is made in
USA and has the syncromatic tailepiece. They also offer Riviera,
Casino, and Howard Roberts models. I almost bought a (Japanese-made)
Sheridan a few months ago that was beautiful. It had a nice sunburst
finish, and included a nice hardshell case for $250 (used of course).
I kick myself for letting that one go.
My 15 year old nephew just bought a new Epiphone SG standard copy.
It has a cherry finish and is amazingly similar to my Gibson SG.
It's a great guitar! I think he made a good investment.
My guitar collection mainly consists of American-made guitars, but
there are many Japanese models that are quite attractive and are
getting more and more difficult to resist. Besides the Epi's the
following would be welcome in my collection any day:
- Japanese made "Fender 50's and 60's" series instruments.
- Japanese-made reissues of the Fender Jaguar, Jazzmaster,
Rosewood Tele, '62 Tele Custom, Tele Thinline, etc.
- Reissue "Gretch" guitars. According to Doctor Weber, these
are actually better than the originals.
- Regal Dobro's which are currently being sold through "Saga"
musical instruments.
- Ibanez George Benson models, as well as the artist series
instruments such as the Bob Weir model.
So many guitars, so little time (and money of course!)
Mark
|
| 1016.236 | | COOKIE::LAMBERT | Sam, Storage Mgmt. S/W @CXO | Fri Jan 06 1995 10:02 | 9 |
| The Epiphone "Joe Pass Signature Emperor II" is a plywood-bodied guitar,
not "carved", and is available, new, for about $490 from Thoroughbred Music.
I haven't played one yet, but would like to!
re: .-1 Ibanez is still making the George Benson model? Haven't seen one
in years. I'll have to go looking.
-- Sam
|
| 1016.237 | Addendum | COOKIE::LAMBERT | Sam, Storage Mgmt. S/W @CXO | Fri Jan 06 1995 10:09 | 6 |
| Oh, P.S: I'll probably move these last few notes to the Epiphone topic
(1808) at some point today. Don't want to clog up "Dr. Weber"'s (I like
that, and with much respect, Danny) note with such sacrilege... :-)
-- Sam
|
| 1016.238 | | RICKS::CALCAGNI | The animal trainer and the toad | Fri Jan 06 1995 12:37 | 6 |
| I did get to play one of the Epi Joe Pass models; this particular one
was Korean made. I thought it was somewhat disappointing. They also
had one of the Washburn J-6s, another inexpensive Korean archtop, that
I liked much better.
But of course, your mileage may vary
|
| 1016.239 | shop around | BIGQ::DCLARK | The Master Cylinder | Fri Jan 06 1995 13:23 | 6 |
| re .-1
I played the same 2 guitars as Rick (at Daddy's in Shrewsbury)
and felt the same way about them. Probably 6 of the 10 or so
Epi Joe Pass models I've tried were real nice; the rest were
dogs.
|
| 1016.240 | Used or new ES-175? | EEMELI::ALANNE | | Mon Mar 20 1995 03:48 | 30 |
|
I'm trying to find an archtop with a good basic
jazz sound. An ES-175 seems to be a good choice.
I have tried a brand new one (sunburst) and it's
ok. But I prefer the sound and playability of a used
(white!) ES-175! The white paint has turned into yellow
on the backside and on the neck, and the overall condition
of the guitar could be better.
Some questions:
Is white an original color of ES-175?
Are new ES-175s considered better/worse quality than those from the
70's and 80's?
How long does it take to "open up" a new ES-175's sound? (new
guitar often sound a little dull at first).
What is current price of a new ES-175? (Here in Finland it's
about 2500$!)
Any other models currently in production worth considering?
Prices?
Thanks,
anssi
|
| 1016.241 | | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Mon Mar 20 1995 06:56 | 48 |
|
>Is white an original color of ES-175?
No,I have never seen a white finish on an ES175 finish,but I suppose Gibson
would take a custom color order if you wanted to wait and if you wanted to
pay the price. I assume you do not mean blonde
>Are new ES-175s considered better/worse quality than those from the
>70's and 80's?
It's really hard to determine whether a new instrument will age nicely over
time.The few new ES175's I've played over the last couple of years seemed
to be pretty nice instruments.
A couple early 70's instruments I played seemed to have a top problem whereas
the area under the bridge was dipping into the instrument,one of which I
owned new and eventually sold. BTW I spent a couple of months calling Gibson
since I had a "lifetime warranty" on this instrument and played telephone tag
with them. I called Guild and I got to talk to a real person who was incredibly
helpful! I remember an 80's ES175 blonde I wish I had bought.....
I've played a couple of 60's Es175's and thought they were very nice and
sounded better than and of the others.
>How long does it take to "open up" a new ES-175's sound? (new
>guitar often sound a little dull at first).
I really don't believe a "production"plywood top instrument opens up,a carved
spruce top may have the tonal/volume characteristics you are looking for...
I have heard carved maple top instruments that sound quite good.
>What is current price of a new ES-175? (Here in Finland it's
>about 2500$!)
I'll let some one else take on this.....
>Any other models currently in production worth considering?
>Prices?
If you are stuck on owning a Gibson then......
You might want to check out a Herb Ellis model or a ES165 single pickup
instrument. I really liked the L4CES,but would have prefered a single pickup
arrangement and a smaller neck. The L4's seem to be a bit more responsive.
What kind of sound/tone are you looking for?
Rick
|
| 1016.242 | | GANTRY::ALLBERY | Jim | Mon Mar 20 1995 07:14 | 8 |
| If I'm not mistaken, most current 175s are mahogany. Most older ones
are maple. This might account for the differences in sound between the
two guitars.
As far as playability, what don't you like about the new guitar?
Is it anything that a good setup won't take care of?
Jim
|
| 1016.243 | Buy the one you like | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Mar 20 1995 11:58 | 13 |
| I think the quality of a new 175 is likely to be much higher than that
of a '70's or '80's model, but no two are alike, so if you prefer the
feel of the older one, that's the one to get. As previously mentioned,
be sure the new one is properly set up and has similar strings on it so
you're making a fair comparison.
I've seen almost everything Gibson makes done in white at one time or
another, so it could be an original finish.
US prices on 175's run about $1250 for a non-vintage one to $4k for a
'59 in mint condition.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.244 | White ES-175 | EEMELI::ALANNE | | Tue Mar 21 1995 00:54 | 27 |
| Yes, it's white (not blonde) ES-175 and as far as
I can tell, it hasn't been repainted.
The new sunburst ES-175 is nice, but it's frets are
little uneven (not polished enough) and the old white
one is louder and clearer when played without amplification.
Both have light gauge round wound strings (although I
prefer semiflats to prevent finger noise). I know something
about setting up a guitar (like fine tuning), but is
there something special with archtops, that I should check?
A guitar shop, that imports Gibsons, has been waiting for a
L4 CES for two years now. And when it arrives, it's price will
be so high that it is no option for me.
Is ES-165 (Herb Ellis) a full-depth model? And does it have
the same scale length as ES-175?
I'd like to pratice without amplification, so the guitar
should have quite good acoustic tone too. I'm after a
smooth (old) jazz sound (40's, 50's and 60's).
Thanks for any info,
anssi
|
| 1016.245 | I liked the 165 | GAVEL::DAGG | | Tue Mar 21 1995 07:20 | 11 |
|
I had an ES165 for a couple years. I didn't find
it satisfying without the amp (not loud enough!),
but it had a _nice_ humbucker pickup, and I really liked its
amplified jazz sound.
I traded it in because I bought a solid body, and
couldn't justify having two guitars.
Dave
|
| 1016.246 | 2c from an ES175 owner. | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Tue Mar 21 1995 09:54 | 43 |
|
>> Couldn't justify owning 2 guitars?!?!?
You're kidding, right? You can NEVER have too many guitars. 20-30
is a good starting point ;^)
I own a late model ES175 (1988). Mine has mahagony back, sides,
and neck and is blonde. I bought mine used through a local classified
ad paper (The Want Advertiser) for $750 US whsc (in pristene condition).
These guitars are made of plywood. The tops are pressed, not
carved. This type of construction makes for a good electric guitar
design, as it prevents feedback. However, these guitars are usesless
as acoustics. If you want a guitar that will play well acoustically
and electrically, you'll need something with a carved, solid spruce
top, and a floating pickup attached either to the pickgaurd or the
neck. Gibson models like this include the L4C, L5, Super400, SuperV,
and a few others. Read the basenote for more details. The most
affordable of all of these is the L4C. You should be able to find a
nice clean used one for under $2k US. The rest of the ones I listed
will all be over $3k.
Less expensive alternatives include Guild, Heritage, and imports
such as Washburn, Ibanez, Yamaha, etc. Guild and Heritage will be
a little less expensive than Gibson, but not much. Imports will be
much more affordable, but there are not many with carved spruce tops.
Ibanez may be your best bet. Check the used market.
I recently bought a Harmony Model H510 which (believe it or not)
has a solid spruce top. It has a cutaway, bound Rosewood fingerboard
with MOP blocks, Inlayed headstock, multi binding and hinged tailpiece.
This was the top of the line for Harmony (not that this says much).
It plays very well, has a nice full tone, and only set me back $150.00
(Less than the cost of a case for a Gibson Archtop). I probably shouldn't
even mention this in the Gibson Archtop note (blasphemy). At least it
was Made In USA! This is a 16" guitar and it fits perfectly into my ES175
case. Harmony also made a Monterey model archtop with similar features.
Kay also made some nice archtop guitars, some of which featured solid
spruce tops. These are a cut above the Harmonys IMHO, and are also very
affordable.
Mark
|
| 1016.247 | Silky smooth! | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Wed Mar 22 1995 11:16 | 9 |
| I restrung my ES175 with D'addario "Chromes" last night. These are
flat-wound strings. This is the first time I've used flat-wounds on
a guitar in nearly 30 years. I used the set with .011" to .050" gauge.
All I can say is, I love em. I have this old vision of flat-wound
strings sounding dull and lifeless, but these sound great. All that's
missing is the finger squeels and fret noises you get with round
wounds. The 175 really sounds like a true Jazz guitar now.
Mark
|
| 1016.248 | LeGrand | RICKS::CALCAGNI | more zip stupid juice | Wed Mar 29 1995 16:29 | 20 |
| Perusing the Gibson home page, I came across a photo and description of
the limited edition LeGrand. If I ever get the ambition (and money) to
invest in a high end arch-top, this is would very likely be it.
The LeGrand is a full scale (25.5"), Venetian (soft) cutaway, carved
spruce top. The board is ebony with pearl and abalone inlays, looks
like Super 400 style. It has a single floating pickup, attached to the
pickguard. They claim this eliminates feedback problems (is this
true?). Available finishes all seem to be of the blonde'ish variety;
"Chablis", "Sunrise Orange", "Translucent Amber". Hardware is gold.
If I imagined in my minds eye the ultimate jazz archtop, it would look
like the on-line photo of the LeGrand. I am in awe of it's beauty,
size and features wise it seems about perfect.
If anyone sees one or has more information on these, I'd be very
interested.
/rick
|
| 1016.249 | LeGrand = JS | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Mar 30 1995 12:18 | 10 |
| I do, I do :-)
Can you say Johnny Smith? It's the replacement for same since JS went
to Heritage. Differences from the traditional Smith are the longer scale
length, mottled pickguard and regular-width neck. The ones I've seen
had a BJB, rather than JS pickup.
These are nice guitars and are reasonably priced for new Gibsons
Danny W.
|
| 1016.250 | | KDX200::COOPER | Revolution calling! | Thu Mar 30 1995 12:23 | 4 |
| Ya know, Johnny lives here in Colo. Spgs. Bumped into him at Rice
Music one day...
jc
|
| 1016.251 | and see .208 | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Mar 30 1995 12:28 | 4 |
| BTW, floating pickups increase feedback. Setting a pickup into the top
deadens the acoustic response.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.252 | | RICKS::CALCAGNI | more zip stupid juice | Thu Mar 30 1995 13:25 | 13 |
| Yes, I was reminded very much of a JS from the picture. These were
always near the top of my dream list as well.
The sales propaganda makes the distinction between a floating pickup
mounted onto the end of the neck and one mounted to the pickguard.
They seem to be saying the pickguard mount "eliminates" feedback
problems, at least that's how I read it. Maybe they just mean
"better than a neck mount".
Danny, can you give me an idea what "reasonably priced" translates
into $$$ with regards to one of these?
/rick
|
| 1016.253 | Sales fluff | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Mar 30 1995 15:27 | 5 |
| Although JS and BJB pickups sound different, I don't think the mounting
arrangement has anything to do with it. I've never noticed a difference
in feedback between the two.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.254 | | MSBCS::EVANS | | Thu Mar 30 1995 17:22 | 6 |
| Danny,
What would a fair price be for a LeGrand or a JS?
Jim (who suspects the Martin 000-42EC might be cheaper)
|
| 1016.255 | Current prices | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Mar 31 1995 07:22 | 4 |
| LeGrands are around $4200, JS's vary depending on vintage, but $5-$6k is
the usual range.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.256 | Triggs Byrdland | RANGER::WEBER | | Fri Jun 09 1995 10:04 | 16 |
| Although I've always liked the Byrdland body, the short-scale, narrow
neck doesn't work for me. Over the years I've chased without success the few
custom models built with larger necks.
I just found a 1991 signed by Jim Triggs, with a short scale but wide
neck. Picture a standard L-5 neck with the space from the nut to the
first fret removed and that's about what this neck feels like.
Strung with an unwound third, it's a great blues guitar. The sound is
perfect and so is the feel, though the neck ends a little abruptly.
It's also got beautiful curly maple and a nice spruce top with a
vintage sunburst, so it's more than just a great little guitar, it's
also a pretty face. I'd like it more if it had a longer scale, but it's
the most playable Byrdland I've seen.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.257 | Perhaps a retirement gift to yourself! | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Wed Jun 14 1995 15:55 | 6 |
| Congrats on the new Byrdland. One question for you. Have you ever
considered having a Byrdland custom-built by the Gibson custom shop
with a neck that meets your' needs? I know it's a long process, but
by this time next year, you could have a beautiful 1-of-a-kind Byrd.
Mark
|
| 1016.258 | I've tried | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Jun 19 1995 10:20 | 7 |
| Mark:
I've submitted "RFQ's" to Gibson's Custom Shop many times for either a
Byrdland with full-scale neck or an L-5CEST. They've always no-bid and
I finally gave up.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.259 | Inquiring minds and all! | MILKWY::JACQUES | Vintage taste, reissue budget | Mon Jun 19 1995 10:39 | 8 |
| Danny, wouldn't an L-5CEST be the same as a George Gobel model?
Didn't you own one of these at one time?
Congrats on the new Byrdland!
Mark
|
| 1016.260 | CT<>CEST | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Jun 20 1995 15:00 | 6 |
| My Gobels have been acoustic guitars (the current one has a BJB), and
have had 24.75" scales. An L-5CEST would have one or two set-in pickups
and a 25.5" scale. I'd wanted this with a florentine cutaway, too:
that's probably why Gibson turned me down.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.261 | Standel | RICKS::CALCAGNI | salsa shark | Mon Jul 31 1995 17:53 | 36 |
| There doesn't seem to be a general archtops note, but other brands get
discussed here so I hope it's appropriate.
Got an interesting call today from a dealer out in the mid-west. He
was offering a Standel 920S archtop, just about to go into his list and
he thought I might want first shot at it. I had inquired about another
Standel a few months back with another dealer in R.I., so it appears my
name got passed around as being interested in these; maybe I'm the
*only* person interested in these :-)
These and similar model Standels are of interest to me because they were
actually made by Harptone and built by Sam Koontz, who was working for
Harptone at the time. These instruments all have the distinctive Harptone
headstock shape, a large oval cutout at the top that sort of forms two
inward horns. After he left Harptone, Sam Koontz built instruments on
his own and in particular made two that were used by Pat Martino. One
was an oval hole archtop with floating pickup and scrolled headstock
that was used by Pat for much of his early 70's work (arguably his peak
period). You can hear this guitar on "Live". The other was an early
synth guitar (we're talking mid-70's) that is pictured on the cover of
"Starbrite". Reports are that this instrument was a bit too unstable
electronically and thus didn't see much road work. Both instruments
were visually striking however; Sam was an adventuresome sort when it
came to his designs. He also seemed to have no qualms about mounting
all sorts of on-board electronics on his instruments, including archtops,
and experimented a lot with this idea. Not exactly 'purist' instruments,
but interesting nonetheless.
Anyway, the Standel 920S being offered to me was an L5 style archtop
with very fancy (if not a bit gaudy) appointments. The previous one
was going for $2000 in mint unplayed condition; not unreasonable and
I might have bitten had it not already been sold. This one was being
offered for $5800, with some wear. Not today, thanks.
/rick
|
| 1016.262 | I have their catalogs, too :-) | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Aug 01 1995 11:35 | 9 |
| Rick:
I had really lusted after the upper-end Standels, especially the 1000
model, when they were being made. I had a chance to play a few and
found that they were more fun to look at than to play (my reaction to
most of Koontz" work) and they really were a little over the top in
decoration. I sure wouldn't spend $5k for one.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.263 | LeGrand | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Oct 11 1995 13:23 | 28 |
| Following up on earlier discussions about the Gibson LeGrand (or is it
LeGrande?), I checked one out. Compared to a Johnny Smith, it has a
slightly narrower fretboard (1&11/16"), longer scale length (25.5"),
shorter peghead with a small S400 split diamond on both sides (very
nice) with an abalone center slash. The fretboard inlays also have
abalone center slashes. The bridge has an ebony base with TOM (this
seems to be Gibson's standard archtop bridge recently). The sides
measure 2 & 7/8", just a little more shallow than most Smiths. A single
BJB hangs off the five-ply pickguard, with a single ebony volume knob
and a 1/4" jack, which awkwardly points towards the "fingers"
tailpiece. A threaded rod bracket supports the pickguard. Truss rod
cover says LeGrand (or LeGrande--I really must check).
Sides, back and neck are highly flamed and set off nicely by the brown
to amber sunburst. Since it's not in the Historic Collection, it
doesn't have the pre-aging toner added to the varnish, so the binding
looks a little new. Excellent workmanship except for way too much
rubbing compound left in the bound f-holes. Neck profile is excellent,
but with a moderately low action, the guitars feels a little stiff
(could the strings or the tailpiece). Fairly loud, dark acoustic sound.
Really nice electric sound.
This makes a good alternative to a Wes Montgomery for someone looking
for a more acoustic archtop with pickup, and is priced in the same
range. It's nice to have a choice. This is a much better guitar than
most Johnny Smiths from the '70's or '80's.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.264 | Switchmaster rides again | MOSAIC::WEBER | | Wed Jan 03 1996 14:37 | 25 |
| Earlier on there was some discussion of the ES-5 Switchmaster. I've
played a number of these in the past and had never been a big fan--a
large plywood archtop with three pickups, 6 pots and the main power
switch from the Titanic didn't fit my definition of "jazz guitar", nor
did the rosewood fretboard and crown headstock inlay meet Gibson's
claim for the "supreme electric version of the L-5".
When Gibson announced a limited run re-issue I was uninterested, until
I saw and played it. With a goo-goo curly maple top and three gold
humbuckers against a blonde finish, it's really quite eye-catching. The
details are almost all right there, including the engraved loop
tailpiece, the large laminated pickguard and the 4-position switch
surround. The only thing glaringly wrong is the neck's five-piece
construction (originals had three).
The workmanship is impeccable. The neck is chunky, but very
comfortable, and the frets are fine. It doesn't sound like a great
jazz guitar, but it's perfect for rockabilly, Motown and doo wop, and
is just a lot of fun to play. Unlike most archtops with more than one
pickup, this one actually gets some useful sounds from the pickup
combinations. At 1/4 the price of an original, this is second in line
to the Tal Farlow for my Gibson bargain of the year award.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.265 | | RICKS::CALCAGNI | Fast, Cheap, Good: choose any two | Wed Jan 03 1996 15:16 | 8 |
| Ronnie Earl used to switch to a Switchmaster for part of his live show;
it made a nice change from the usual Strat sound and worked very well
in the blues band repertoire. I'd probably opt for a sunburst myself.
So what are the $$$?
/rick
|
| 1016.266 | Switchmaster | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Jan 04 1996 07:58 | 8 |
| Rick:
It's around $2600. I don't know if there are any sunburst ones yet. I
see originals sunbursts in the $5,500 range and blondes around $10k.
I was hoping they'd do a sunburst one with three p-90s
Danny W.
|
| 1016.267 | Hear acoustic archtops on "Tone Poems II" | GANTRY::ALLBERY | Jim | Mon Jan 15 1996 08:23 | 24 |
| Acoustic archtop fans out there may want to check out "Tone Poems II"
by David Grisman and Martin Taylor. With a few notable execeptions,
each track features an archtop (played by Taylor) paired with a
mandolin (played by Grisman) of similar vintage. This is a sequel
to "Tone Poems," which featured Tony Rice on guitar, but focused
primarily flat-top guitars (as one would expect with Mr. Rice on
guitar).
In addition to numerous sets of Gibsons (including one track that
features an L5 guitar, F5 mandolin, H5 mandola, and a ?5 mandocello--
all master-series instruments signed by Lloyd Loar), "Tone Poems II"
also contains pairings of D'Angelico, Monteleone (sp?), Epiphone,
Gilchrist, and Martin guitars and mandolins. Also featured are guitars
by D'Aquisto, Gretsch, Stromberg, and Selmer (not an archtop, but
definitely a jazz guitar).
The CD comes with a 46-page book with a photo and description of each
instrument. Best of all, instead of merely drooling over photos of
L5s, Super-400s and D'Angelico New Yorkers, you get to hear what they
sound like. And the playing is superb.
I highly recommend the original "Tone Poems," too.
Jim
|
| 1016.268 | Ibanez "Pat Metheny" model | GAVEL::DAGG | | Wed Apr 03 1996 10:35 | 10 |
|
I couldn't find the "non-gibson" archtop note, so-
As read in new GP NAMM article: Ibanez has a new
carved-top archtop called the Pat Metheny. I think
list was around $2500. Could be interesting, especially
if its heavily discounted. Maybe comparable with Heritage
models (?). I wonder if Pat actually uses one.
Dave - who sometimes wishes he still had his ES-165
|
| 1016.269 | | PTPM05::HARMON | Paul Harmon, ACMSxp Engineering | Mon Jun 03 1996 09:58 | 7 |
| Another generic archtop item...
My archtop has a wooden bridge. If I were to replace this with a
tune-o-matic bridge, what affect would it probably have on the
guitar's tone? Would sustain likely be affected one way or the other?
Paul
|
| 1016.270 | | ASABET::DCLARK | SBU Technology Group | Mon Jun 03 1996 10:07 | 2 |
| A tune-o-matic would probably increase sustain. A better option
would be to throw a Floyd Rose in there :-)
|
| 1016.271 | | PTPM05::HARMON | Paul Harmon, ACMSxp Engineering | Mon Jun 03 1996 10:33 | 4 |
| >A better option
>would be to throw a Floyd Rose in there :-)
Gasp! 8^)
|
| 1016.272 | ????? | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Mon Jun 03 1996 11:07 | 14 |
|
> My archtop has a wooden bridge. If I were to replace this with a
> tune-o-matic bridge, what affect would it probably have on the
> guitar's tone? Would sustain likely be affected one way or the other?
I would think that the sound would become thinner sounding and yes you would
increase sustain of the instrument. It would also give the ability to improve
intonation of the instrument,however I did this once and decided I liked the
tone of the instrument with a wooden bridge.
Why would you want to do this?
Rick
|
| 1016.273 | | PTPM05::HARMON | Paul Harmon, ACMSxp Engineering | Mon Jun 03 1996 11:14 | 10 |
| >Why would you want to do this?
I probably wouldn't, based on these answers to my question. More sustain
would be nice, but not at the cost of a thinner sound.
It's just something that I realized *could* be different, so I was
curious about the kind/extent of difference. Fortunately, it wasn't
my guitar's intonation that made me wonder.
Paul
|
| 1016.274 | Acoustic vs Electric archtops. | MILKWY::JACQUES | | Mon Jun 03 1996 11:28 | 15 |
| My take on this is:
If this is an "acoustic" archtop guitar, the bridge should be wooden.
This type of guitar will use bronze wound strings. The use of bronze
wounds and a wooden bridge is essential for getting good acoustic tone.
Acoustic archtops generally have solid-spruce tops. If there is a
pickup it's generally a floating pickup so it doesn't diminish the
guitars tone.
If this is an electric archtop guitar, the bridge could be either
wooden or metal (tune-0-matic). My ES175 has a tune-o-matic bridge.
Keep in mind that ES175's are plywood with set in pickups and use
steel strings. They are not acoustic archtop guitars.
Mark
|
| 1016.275 | vintage wood bridges... | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Mon Jun 03 1996 15:38 | 13 |
| > If this is an electric archtop guitar, the bridge could be either
> wooden or metal (tune-0-matic). My ES175 has a tune-o-matic bridge.
> Keep in mind that ES175's are plywood with set in pickups and use
> steel strings. They are not acoustic archtop guitars.
My 175 from the 70's had a wood bridge when I bought it,I saw Steve Howe
use a 175 with Yes and decided to start using a tunematic. Years later
I switched back to a wood bridge and chucked the tuna-matic. Alot of this
probably was due to the fact I didn't use the guitar that much with an amp
but played it acoustically. I also thought the Tunematic was a piece of junk
back then and ended up using elmers glue to stop rattles etc.
Rick
|
| 1016.276 | likes it both ways | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Jun 03 1996 15:51 | 15 |
| I have archtops set up with both TOMs and wooden bridges. Truthfully, I
don't prefer one to the other on guitars with set-in pickups. They
sound different, but both give a good jazz sound. Note that Wes
Montgomery and Kenny Burrell both typically use(d) TOM's on their
carved-top guitars, and Gibson's standard bridge on the Wes model is a
TOM--in fact, Gibson has been shipping far more TOM's than wooden
saddles on their archtops in the last few years.
On guitars with floating pickups, I'd generally use a wood saddle, but
even there I've got good-sounding exceptions.
This is a cheap enough experiment to try. If you don't like the
results, it's easy to reverse.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.277 | | ASABET::16.125.80.21::pelkey | professional hombre | Tue Jun 04 1996 07:25 | 7 |
| < My archtop has a wooden bridge. If I were to replace this with a
< tune-o-matic bridge, what affect would it probably have on the
< guitar's tone? Would sustain likely be affected one way or the other?
you sure you wanna modify it ????
|
| 1016.278 | Notes revival! | MILKWY::JACQUES | | Tue Jun 04 1996 07:41 | 3 |
| Danny, Welcome back. Long time!
Mark
|
| 1016.279 | re .278 | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Jun 04 1996 07:52 | 4 |
| Mark, I haven't actually been anywhere--I just haven't seen any threads
of interest to me.
Danny W.
|
| 1016.280 | | PTPM05::HARMON | Paul Harmon, ACMSxp Engineering | Tue Jun 04 1996 09:21 | 6 |
| >you sure you wanna modify it ????
Well, not entirely...but I thought (as Danny's reply suggested) that
if I did decide to give it a try, it would be an easy mod to reverse.
Paul
|
| 1016.281 | | ASABET::pelkey.ogo.dec.com::pelkey | professional hombre | Tue Jun 04 1996 09:42 | 11 |
|
yea I was surprised to see that,, I'd assumed that
something with a Drill, router, or chainsaw would
have been required ?!? :^)
I've got a 79 Ibanez Musican that in a moment of weakness,
i added a Kahler too,,, I like the mod, but in retrospect,
I should have kept it stock.... Live and learn ya know..
|
| 1016.282 | pointer | RANGER::WEBER | | Tue Jun 04 1996 10:19 | 1 |
| There was some discusion of this in note 979.*
|
| 1016.283 | design and materials differences=tone? | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Wed Nov 20 1996 09:23 | 17 |
| 1016.284 | good question, but I don't know the answer | GAVEL::DAGG | | Wed Nov 20 1996 11:03 | 19 |
| 1016.285 | sidetrack ahead | RICKS::CALCAGNI | Smokin' Walter, the Fire Engine Guy | Wed Nov 20 1996 12:16 | 22 |
| 1016.286 | 2 cents | CUSTOM::ALLBERY | Jim | Wed Nov 20 1996 12:16 | 13 |
| 1016.287 | | CUSTOM::ALLBERY | Jim | Wed Nov 20 1996 12:18 | 5 |
| 1016.288 | Top mor important | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Nov 20 1996 14:40 | 8 |
| 1016.289 | carved or no carved? | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Thu Nov 21 1996 08:56 | 48 |
| 1016.290 | it ain't science | RANGER::WEBER | | Thu Nov 21 1996 13:35 | 13 |
| 1016.291 | rocket science? | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Mon Nov 25 1996 08:02 | 24 |
| 1016.292 | re:.291 | RANGER::WEBER | | Mon Nov 25 1996 10:16 | 13 |
| 1016.293 | M.Campallone? | GAVEL::DAGG | | Mon Dec 23 1996 11:15 | 7 |
| 1016.294 | | RICKS::CALCAGNI | thick slabs of dirt in a halo of airy twang | Thu Jan 02 1997 07:27 | 22 |
| 1016.295 | 87 L4 CES | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Wed Jan 22 1997 08:41 | 41 |
| 1016.296 | Out of the ordinary sightings | GAVEL::DAGG | | Tue Feb 18 1997 15:37 | 26 |
|
Out in Seattle last weekend spotted a few archtops I
had not seen before:
(1) One of those Ibanez Pat Metheny models. This was
black. As played by Jim Greninger at a restaraunt
gig, I wasn't wicked excited by the sound.
(2) A "Kell Guitars" seven string thin body. Pretty nice
looking and sounding. Anyone heard of these?
(3) An "Anderson" archtop having solid spruce top and
Ken Armstrong pickup. Very sharp looking and great
sounding as played by a fellow with the last name of "Nova".
He was doing duos with a bass player and vocals also.
His settup was cool, using a single Boss 802 speaker
with a multi-channel tube preamp into a power amp so that
bass, vocals and guitar were all handled at once.
Very compact, and the sound was
fine (for a wedding at least). Probably his studio rack?
He told me its a Seattle guitar maker. I'd guess this is
a different Anderson from the solid body maker.
Dave
|
| 1016.297 | | NETCAD::BUSENBARK | | Wed Feb 19 1997 07:25 | 11 |
| I believe the archtop builder is Steve Anderson as opposed to Tom
Anderson who builds solidbodies.
I remember seeing pictures of Steve Anderson's Archtops in the Luthier
Merchantile catalog several years ago.
I believe Elderly instruments and Mandolin Bros. advertise his
instruments.
Rick
|
| 1016.298 | | GANTRY::ALLBERY | Jim | Fri Feb 21 1997 14:13 | 4 |
| Elderly supposedly has an exclusive agreement to sell Steve Anderson's
Emerald City model. He also advertises regularly in acoustic guitar.
Jim
|