Conference napalm::guitar

    the latest guitar player magazine features amps,  several articles
    , one on dating fender amps.
    
    cambridge music has several older fenders,  also try want advertiser,
    .....i had seen an ad in this file not too long ago as well for
    several vintage amps.
    
    steve

   Billy Lee's in Worcester has a few vintage amps.

   Last time I checked, he had a couple blackface (twin and a super?),
   three tweeds (a TEENY one, a bassman, and a deluxe), a stereo Gibson,
   a couple Magnetone's, and some other stuff.  Dunno about the prices,
   but he will bargain.

   It's on West Boylston around the corner from Kurlan's.

   Have fun,
   Dave

    
    Re: .0
    
    The terms "blackface" etc. are commonly bandied about, so for those
    who are totally in the dark as to what these mean:
    
    "Tweed" refers to a amp covering material that looks *somewhat*
    like tweed but is actually a heavy-duty linen.  It is smmoth to
    the touch, and is a golden brown color with orange/brown "striping"
    to it.  Most tweed amps date from the early 50s to about 1961-62.
    Typically, the control panel is mounted on the top rear of the amp.
    Most have brown grille cloth and a rectangular grille.  Some have
    grilles with rounded corners and these are known as "TV fronts".
    
    "Blond" amps were only built for about two years, 1961-62.  They use
    tolex (what most amps are covered with today, a heavy vinyl with a
    bumpy feel) and had control panels mounted to the front, finished in
    dark brown.  Grill cloth was either dark brown or a light tan, the tan
    ones being newer. Around this time, some amps were also made in a dark
    brown tolex covering, also with brown control panels. 
    
    "Blackfaces" are covered with black tolex and have black, front
    mounted control panels.  The amp name is written in script.  These
    were built from about 1962 to 1967-68.  Some of these are post-CBS.
    
    "Silverfaces" are covered with black tolex and have silver, front
    mounted control panels.  The amp name is written in blue block letters.
    These are all post CBS, dating from about 1968-69 to the early eighties.
    
    In the late seventies, the new amps coming from Fender reverted
    to a blackface type of look.  All of their current amp line are
    "blackface", but since the models have been changed considerably,
    there's little confusion with the mid-60s blackfaces. 

    BTW: Talking to a dealer friend of mine as well as another friend
    who has a bunch of old tweeds confirmed that thanks to that GP amp
    issue, old amp prices have shot up yet again.

    The best place to check up on the history of Fender amps is in 
    the issue of Guitar Player magazine that came out about 2-3 months
    ago. It covers the entire Fender line from their inception to the
    latest models. Look for an issue that has a Marshall combo on the
    front cover, you can't miss it. 
    
    There are several notes in this conference that cover amplifiers.
    Try doing DIR/TITLE="amp". There is a note around #390 that discusses
    the "New Fender Twin" which I originated, and which has about 75
    replies. This note covers just about all you need to know about
    tube amps, but were afraid to ask.
    
    I disagree that transistorized effects produce better tube distortion
    than modern tube amps. We have been around and around this issue
    a million times in this conference, and we have pretty much concluded
    that the best way to get a sweet, warm, tube sound is with a tube
    amp, and the effects boxes all fall short of producing that sound.
    
    The thing is that modern music has changed, and
    people are not after that sweet classic tube sound as much as they
    used to be. Amplifier manufacturers are simply catering to the majority
    of the market which is playing Heavy metal, or rock laced with metalic
    solos. More people are after the "processed" sound like you get
    from the Sholz Rockman, the Gallien Krueger ML250, the Roland GP8,
    etc. As in any market, the demand dictates the product offering. 
    
    Depending on your sound reinforcement requirements, there are many
    alternatives to buying a vintage amp. Many people swear by their
    pre-cbs Fender amps and I'll grant you they do sound great, but
    they are not the only game in town. If a small practice size amp
    is sufficient for your needs, I would suggest you look for a Fender
    Super Champ, which is a model that has been discontinued for the
    past 5 years or so. They cranked 18watts into a 10" speaker, and
    included a foot switch which allowed you to switch from a clean
    rhythm sound to an overdrive lead sound. These amps can be purchased
    in good condition for around $200 to $250. The original Champ as
    well as the latest Champs are 12w amps, and can't hold a candle
    to the Super Champ.
    
    If you need to move more air than that, you will need something
    with around 50 watts or more, and 2 10" or 12" speakers. You could
    pick up a used Marshall combo, or Mesa Boogie, for around $500 if
    you look around. Fender has a new line of tube amps coming out this
    year including a 60watt combo that should be around the $500 to
    $600 price range, and promises to be a real popular model. I have
    a late model Fender "The Twin" which is all the amp you would ever
    need, but they sell for around $900 new. I also have a 1978 Silver-
    faced Twin which includes the master volume/pull distortion knob.
    These amps were probably the least popular twin ever produced, but
    they do produce a great clean sound, and are one of the loudest
    clean sounding amps you can get due to the 130watt rating and the
    high efficiency JBL D120 speakers.
     
    A lot of people bad-mouth Peavey, but they do have their place in
    the market. For every person that hates Peavey, there are probably
    10 people using them. The same thing can be said for Fender, Marshall,
    etc.
    
    The issue of "Which amp is best" is no more cut and dry than the
    issue of "Which guitar is best". It's all individual taste, and 
    personal opinion, and in the final analysis, only you can determine
    which amp is right for you.
    
    Mark Jacques
      
    
    
    

    I have an old beige (or off white) Fender Reverb unit. My brother
    bought it new in 1957 & It's never had a change of tubes. I currently
    only use it for recording (along with a digital reverb unit & a guitar
    analog delay stomp box), but it's travelled a lot.

    I have a silver faced 1976 Twin & I agree that it sounds different than
    the earlier black faced Twins (I used to own an older Bass Man model
    at one time). Mine has Altec 12's in it & it can get loud. We rencently
    played at a Skie resort in a room that was around 100 by 200 feet, with
    at least 160 people & I never had the Main & Master volume above 6.
    It's a very heavy amplifier (about 50% of the weight is in the
    speakers), & I have to be prepared for the worst (I carry a complete
    set of spare 6L6GC's & 12AX7/12AT7's so I can do complete swap out if
    I can't figure out where the problem is - I painted a red dot on my
    original 6L6GC tube bases so I could tell which ones were which after
    a swap), but I wouldn't trade it for some other brand of Amplifier.

    I keep reading in various magazines how studios have an Old Twin
    sitting around that tends to be used on  many albums when the engineers
    can't get the other amps to sound right. Just another point in it's
    favor.

    I use mine for both 6 string (about 95%) and Bass Guitar (About 5%) -
    I play a double neck 6/bass. It sounds fine for guitar & mediocre for
    keyboards unless I connect other speakers (the Altecs seem to be
    matched for guitars & not much of anything else - My old Bass Man with
    Jensons did not have this problem).

							Jens

    In 1984  I had resigned myself to spending the cash for a Boogie
    when I had a chance to play a Fender Twin Reverb II and a (solid
    state) Showman. I bought *both* of them new for less than the
    Boogie--the Twin has (of course) 2-12's and the Showman has an EVM
    15L. Each has an extremely versatile lead channel and , footswitchable,
    adjustable level, effects loops. The Showman has a graphic eq that
    can be assigned to either channel. I used the Twin for GB and the
    Showman for jazz and recording.
    
    These amps were designed by Paul Rivera and sound great. The Showman
    is the first non-tube amp I've really liked, and I have sometimes
    set them side by side with a switch box and challenged tube-freaks
    to guess which head was connected to the 2-12's. Most of them swore
    the Showman was a tube amp. Last year I sold the Twin, mostly because
    I prefer the sound of the 15" speaker.
    
    Either of these can be found used for about $500.
    
    My all-time favorite amp was a brown '61 Concert 4-10, which I stupidly
    sold in '63, but that's another story.
    
    Danny W.
    

    I'll second the recommendation of Cambridge Music and Billy Lee's;
    I've done vintage amp business in both these places with good results.
    
    For my money, the best deal in vintage Fenders is the blackface
    Super or Twin Reverb; nice specimens of both of these can be found for
    under $500, well under if you find one that's cosmetically beat (at least,
    before the Guitar Player issue came out).  I'd favor the Super as you
    can get a good loud clean sound and still get it to scream at
    not-to-serious volume, plus I think the array of 4 10" speakers
    sounds a bit better than the Twin's 2 12's.  Fender amps from
    this era are built like tanks, too.
    
    I think cost/performance goes down when you get into blonds or
    tweeds; these amps are more desirable to collectors (thus more
    expensive), aren't necessarily built as solid, and don't usually
    have as much tonal variation.  One of the most desirable and best
    sounding of the tweeds is a 4x10 Bassman, similar in power and
    configuration to the Super; got an extra $1000+ laying around?

    If you're looking for an amp to distort at low volume, a good choice
    is the blackface Princeton Reverb.  These amps sound great past
    5 on the volume control.  Jeff Beck's had one for years and has
    mentioned it many times as being his favorite amp for cranking
    up around the house.  Careful, the non-reverb blackface Princeton
    does not distort anywhere nearly as nicely as the reverb model;
    there's an extra tube stage in the signal path of the reverbs.
    Two weeks ago at Cambridge Music, there had at least 7 blackface
    Princeton Reverbs in stock!  All were nice, some were cherry.
    Price was $325.  They had other blackfaces in stock, too.
    Have fun.
    
    /rick
    

    One thing I've found is that speakers make a big difference in the
    old Fender amps.  Tweeds were originally fitted with blue Jensens,
    later models used either Oxfords, Utahs, or grey/black Jensens.  By
    all means, get one with original speakers if you can.  Jensens are
    especially sought after and with good reason; they sound terrific.
    If there's no label, you can usually identify a Jensen by the fact
    that it uses a square magnet structure.  When checking, be aware
    that some Jensens had a round dust cover over the magnet.  Also,
    later blackfaces often used Jensens with a "Fender" label on them.

    /rick    
    

    
    
    	Ummm... I thought that old fenders had JBLs or Celestion speakers.
     Did they really have Jensens??
    
    
    Steve

    probably because someone replaced the originals.  Celestions and JBLs
    are the most common replacements I've seen in old Fenders.

    re .9

    Hmmm, just remembered.  I believe the brown Super may have come with
    orange colored JBLs as the stock speakers, but I'm not sure.  The Super
    only had 2 10's in those days, as opposed to 4 10's on blackface
    models.  This is the only case I can think of where JBLs may have
    been used.  I'm positive Fender didn't put Celestions in any pre-CBS
    amps.

    /rick

    
    Fender used to offer JBL speakers as options in many of their amps.
    Never Celestions. 
    
    

    Fender was offering optional JBL's in most of its amps in the early
    '60's. Anything other than a Jensen or JBL in a pre-CBS amp is suspect.
    
    Danny W.

    In 1978, the silver faced amps were available with either Utah 
    speakers, or orange colored JBL D120's. Mine has the JBL's.
    I've never seen a stock Fender with Celestians, but I understand
    that many people installed them to get that British sound. 
    Utahs were not very rugged, and many people replaced them with
    Celestians as they were reasonably priced.
                                   
    Mark

    I believe the Utah company eventually turned into Pyle, can
    anyone confirm?
    
    For replacement purposes, Celestions are the closest thing to
    an old Jensen sound IMO.  Both Celestions and Jensens add a lot
    of coloration and tend to smooth out rough spots in the amp's output
    signal.  JBLs may be great speakers, but I didn't care for them in
    the old Fenders that I've seen with em.  Like EV's, they're a little
    too good and don't get as nice of a vintage sound.
        
    /rick

    
    Mesa is now selling a speaker they call a "vintage" Celestion which
    is the stock speaker in the Caliber Boogies.  It is a 30 watt Celestion
    with a "vintage" cone and a "Jensen-like" voice coil.  If it's all
    of that it seems like a good choice for replacing blown drivers
    in old Fenders.
    
    

    Thought I'd test and see if this note is too old for any more replies!
    
    Do any of you amplifier historians out there know a brief summary
    of the various models offered by fender during the 1960's?  I'd
    be particularly interested in knowing the power output and speaker
    configuration.  Is the following table accurate?
    
    Amp			Power		Speakers	Piggyback
    ---			-----		--------	---------
    Concert		40 W		4 x 10		no
    Super Reverb	40 W		4 x 10		no
    Pro Reverb		40 W		2 x 12		no
    Vibrolux		35 W		2 x 10		no
    Princeton		?		1 x 10 ?	no
    Twin Reverb		80 W		2 x 12		no
    Band Master		35 W ?		?		yes
    Dual Showman	?		?		yes
    Bassman		45 W ?		?		yes
    Deluxe		?		1 x 12 ?	no
    
    I know there had to be others too, but I'm not sure what they were.
    

    The Princeton is 10w. The Bandmaster is 45w with a 2X12 cab.
    

    Amp			Power		Speakers	Piggyback
    ---			-----		--------	---------
    Princeton		15		1 x 10 		no (reverb optional)
    Showman		80		1 X 15		yes
    Dual Showman	80		2 X 15		yes (reverb optional) 
    Bassman		50		1 X 12		yes (blond only)
    					2 X 12		yes 
    					2 X 15		yes (post-CBS)
    Deluxe		20		1 x 12 	        no
    Pro (non reverb)	20		1 X 15		no
    Vibroverb		40		1 X 15		no
    
    You said "60s" so this ignores the tweeds from the 50s. On amps like
    the Tremolux or Vibrolux, I'd have to go to the reference books.  While
    I have seen one 4 X 10 Concert, I have also seen some single speaker
    ones that looked more like a Princeton (15 watts?). You left out the
    Champ, too. 

   

    I shouldn't have excluded the 1950's fenders, they're certainly welcome
    here too!   I suppose the 70s are ok too, though they probably couldn't
    be considered truely 'vintage' and by the mid 1970s CBS had progressed
    a long way toward the destruction of the 'vintage sound'.  Lord Knows
    the sound of the mid-1980s Concert that I now own, teamed up with
    a modern 4x10 cab doesn't come close to the old ones - even though
    fender promoted them as being 'updated and refined versions of their
    predecessors'.  Right!  That's marketing!
    
    As an aside, wouldn't it seem that Fender should be aware of the
    current demand and prices for these pre-CBS amps?  I could be wrong
    but it seems to me that there is a sufficient market for pre-CBS
    equipment, that Fender would be interested in winning it back.
    They certainly know what they used to build. What would stop them
    from 're-issuing' such high-demand amps as the super reverb?  For
    those of us who are trying to capture that original sound, it
    shouldn't matter if it was being produced by the 'real thing', or
    by a modern amp which was capable of getting that sound (and the
    latter doesn't exist, but that's another rat hole.)  I realize
    that 'vintage' amps were built with 'vintage' electronic components
    (including 'vintage' speakers,) but is modern technology unable to
    re-produce its own history?  We can put a man on the moon . . .
    
    Rag, rag, rag . . .
    
    Steve 

    One part of the "vintage" sound is component aging and this part
    is hard if not impossible to duplicate.  
    
    Many of the design changes were made to cut production cost, increase
    reliability (i.e. going from tube to solid-state rectifiers) and
    improve performance (lower noise). Some "vintage" features have little
    or no sales potential today, i.e. tremelo. 
    
    I think that products like the new Twins and the Super 60 address
    today's market while having *some* of the vintage character.  As I
    said in an earlier note about vintage amps, many of them are not
    usable as all-around amps.  For recording, "period" music (blues,
    rockabilly, etc.) or multi-amp setups they can be useful but amodern
    amp provides more versatility for today's player.
    
    I own a blond Bassman but it stays home and I gig with a modern
    head from AMP because it's just more sensible.

    I do see a lot of local players using things like Blackfaced Fenders
    on the gig; some of these amps have better reputations for reliability
    than the more recent models!  As for versatility, it depends on
    what else you're using.  I see a big trend lately towards doing
    all effects, including distortion, with outboard gear; I know at
    least one Boogie owner who never uses the overdrive, opting for
    signal processing instead.  The clean Fender sound is great for
    building on.
    
    Unfortunately, old Fender tweeds, browns, and blackfaces used to be
    great sounding and CHEAP; now that they've become vintage collectibles,
    that advantage no longer exists.

    Check out the latest Guitar World; there's an ad from some company
    in Seattle who's making what appears to be an exact copy of a 4x10
    tweed Bassman.
    
    /rick

    	I have a couple of questions regarding a Fender head and cabinet
    I ran across this weekend. The head is a Fender 400PS, silverface
    with black vinyl covering. The front control panel starting from
    the left has a power and a standby switch then the first channel
    is labled Bass Instrument with two inputs then a vol. bass and treble
    knobs and there is a switch for what is labled, "deep". The second
    channel is labled Normal and includes two inputs and a bright switch.
    The controls for this channel are volume, treble, mid, bass, reverb,
    speed, intensity and master volume. The outputs on the back of the
    head include a grd switch, hum balance preamp, vibrato and reverb
    pedal inputs (RCA), matched tube output, and 3 each 145 watt outputs.
    The amp is rated at 435 watts RMS. The knobs are polished aluminum
    with black centers and the Fender F in the center.
    	The cabinet is a silver face with black vinyl covering. The Fender
    logo is in the upper left hand corner and there is a JBL logo in the
    lower right hand corner. The cabinet dimensions are 3'9"X2'6"X12" and
    contains two 15" JBL's.
    	My questions pertain to the approximate dates that the Fender 400PS
    was manufactured, source of schematics and/or instruction manuals and
    has anyone had previous experience with this model amp. Any info would
    be appriciated.
    
    Thanks,
    DonH
    
    PS. It has CBS Musical Instruments on the front of the control panel
        so I do know it is post CBS.
    
    

    I was working on this anyway when I saw the last reply.  I had a Fender
    catalog from 1972 that showed the 400 PS.  It was likely discontinued
    soon after.  I never have seen a full rig, though I have seen one head
    and one speaker cab over the years.  A double 15" cab was not stock as
    far as I know.  Guitar Player had a feature on it in the vintage amp
    column a while back. 

    *********************************************************************
        
Since I have nothing better to do with my time than spew out trivia, here is a
quick guide to the wonderful world of Fender bass amp models (more or less):

BASSMAN MODELS

1. Original Bassman
Introduced in 1952 along with the P-Bass.  26 watts into a single 15" speaker. 
I have never seen one of these, I would suspect it is open-backed.

2. 4-10 Bassman
Introduced in 1955-56?  50 watts into a 2 ohm load, four 10" speakers, open
backed.  All models had bass, treble and presence controls, later versions also
had midrange.  This is the classic tweed amp so desired by harp and guitar
players though not so much by bassists!

3. Blonde Piggyback
Introduced in 1960.  Twin channel head, 50 watts into 4 ohms.  Blonde tolex,
brown control strip, white knobs.  Each channel had volume, bass, treble, plus
a master presence for both channels.  Earliest specimens had dark brown
grilles, single 12" cabinet.  Later models had tan grilles, twin 12" (side by
side) cabs.

4. Blackface
Introduced in 1962-63?? Same as the blonde model but presence control is gone,
black tolex, black control plate, silver grille.  White knobs with the numbers
printed on the panel of earliest ones.  Later models had black knobs with
numbers on the knobs, added deep switch to bass channel and bright switch to
normal channel. Around 1966, cabs went from being side by side to up and down.

5. Silverface
Introduced 1968-69?? Silver control panel with "Bassman" printed in blue block
letters. Twin 15" cabinet.

6. Bassman Solid State
Introduced 1969.  Solid state head, 50 watts.  Single channel, volume, bass,
treble and "voicing" switch (preset EQ settings).  Double 15" cabinet.  Silver
control panel and grilles using Fender's solid state cosmetic scheme.

7. Bassman Ten
Introduced about 1971.  Tube combo unit with four 10" speakers in a sealed
cabinet. 50 watts, normal channel has midrange and master volume, otherwise
like the silverface.

8.  Bassman 100
Introduced about 1971.  Tube piggyback, 100 watts into 4 ohms, normal channel
has midrange and master volume.  Speaker cabinet has four 12" speakers in a
front loaded horn configuration.

9.  Bassman 50
Introduced around 1972.  Same as silverface with addition of (surprise)
midrange and master volume on the normal channel.  

10. Bassman 70/135
Mid-seventies. Upgraded versions of the 50/100 models respectively.   New
single and double 15" cabinets introduced.

11. Bassman Compact
Introduced about 1981.  Solid state combo, 50 watts, single 15" speaker.
Compressor built-in.  Black control panel, script logo.

12.  Bassman 20
Introduced about 1983.  Tube combo, 20 watts, single 15" speaker. Black control
panel, script logo.  Volume, bass, mid, treble, presence controls.

MUSICMASTER BASS

Introduced late sixties.  Tube combo, 12 watts, single 12" speaker, open 
back, volume and tone controls.  Silverface only, I think.

PS 400

Introduced about 1970. Tube piggyback.  Head was twin channel (bass: deep,
volume, bass, treble; normal: bright, bass, mid, treble, tremelo and reverb!!,
master volume). Three output transformers each driving 145 watts into 4 ohms. 
Speaker cabinet was single 18" speaker in a folded horn configuration.

STUDIO BASS

Late seventies.  Tube combo, 200 watts, single 15" speaker.  Single channel
with volume, bass, mid, treble (all passive) plus five band active EQ, master
volume.  Black control panel, black grille.

BASS 300

Late seventies. Solid state head. 300 watts.  Single channel, volume, bass,
mid, treble, master volume, three band quasi-parametric EQ, effects loop. 

SIDEKICK

Introduced around 1983, made in Japan.  All models solid state. Volume, master
volume, bass, mid, treble, presence.

1. 30/35
Single 12" speaker, open back.  30 or 35 watts.

2. 60/65
Single 15" speaker, sealed cab. 60 or 65 watts.

3. SK-100
100 watt head only. Compressor built-in.

BASS 400 (???)

Introduced 1988. Solid state head 200/200 watt stereo/biamp or 400 watt 
full range mono.  Graphic EQ, crossover, compressor, rack-mountable. New single
15" and 4-10" cabinets introduced.  Built in Oregon at the old Sunn factory.

    re:25
    
    	Thanks for the info. The cabinet may very well have an eighteen 
    in speaker in it. I have not had an opportunity to pull the back
    yet so I was going by the info given to me by the person I picked
    up the amp from. (She addmitted that she did not know what the 
    speaker configuration was)
    	Anyone have any info on what a 400PS in good condition would go
    for now days?
    
    Thanks,
    DonH
    
    

    
    The value of one is highly variable.  First, is it functional? Second,
    what's it worth to *you*?  It's not a collectible the way some Fender
    amps are, and it's so scarce that most bassists probably don't even
    know it ever existed. 
    
    From the standpoint of being used as a gigging bass amp, I would say
    $400 or less for the head plus cab, if in very good shape. The bulk of
    the rig actually would detract from the value for many people. The guy
    in GP who discussed it bought the head plus two cabs for *$150* !!!!!! 
    Except for tweed and blond Bassmans, Fender bass amps usually go
    for low prices.
    
    Are you trying to sell the thing or buy it or what?

    	I picked it up for $275.00. I am currently using it for my
    rhythm unit and it works great. My main complaint would have to
    be that both the cabinet and the head must weight 150 lbs a piece.
    I do not plan on hauling this sucker to gigs. Not without half a
    dozen roadies that is.
    
    Thanks again for the info.
    DonH
    
    

    re .24/25  I realize this is an old note, but I am curious.
    
    The PS400 has 3 power amps, each producing 145 watts of power !!
    Are all 3 power amps strapped to one 18" speaker. How is this
    done without the amp self-destructing ?  How can a single 18"
    speaker handle 435 watts without blowing. If only one power amp is
    strapped to the 18", then what are the other two amps connected
    to ? If the answer is nothing, doesn't this present a problem
    running the amps without a load ? 
    
	Just curious !
    

    
    Just when you thought vintage amp mania had hit its peak....
    
    Peavey is *reissuing* the "Vintage" series, which were amps made in the
    early 70s that were themselves just copies of tweed Fenders.
    
    50 watts, 2-12 and 4-10 configurations. 
    
    Also, Kustom is back in business...time for a tuck and roll revival?
    
    						Brian 

    Does anyone know if there are any differences between 
    a blackface Fender Deluxe and a Deluxe Reverb (except the 
    obvious-one has reverb)? In other words are they the
    same amp, except the "Deluxe" doesn't have reverb? Any 
    information about these amps is appreciated. Thanks,
    
    -Tom

    
    As far as "any" information, I play with a guy who has two Deluxe
    Reverbs.  These amps put out about 20-25 watts using a pair of 6BQ5
    tubes and have a single 12" speaker.  They are not incredibly loud, as
    you might expect.  He often runs both of them on a gig or uses one
    Deluxe plus a Pro Reverb (40 watts, 2-12") using the Deluxe for
    overdrive (he has it turned up real high) and the Pro for clean sounds.
    I really like the tone, it is very sweet.  
    
    							Brian  

    Hmmmm, don't have my GT book handy, can't say I'm familiar with 6BQ5.
    The Deluxes I've seen use a pair of 6V6s, and I'm pretty sure that's
    what's shown on the schematics as well.
    
    As far as Deluxes being relatively low power, I guess that's true, but
    I can't crank mine past 6 or 7 without rattling dishes and attracting
    every dog in the neighborhood.  I have seen a few Boston area blues
    players using a Deluxe as their only stage amp (miked when necessary
    of course).  As Brian mentioned, they are prized for their sweet
    distorted tone.
    
    The only difference between the blackfaced Deluxe and Deluxe Reverb
    is the extra reverb circuit in the tremelo channel.  Because this puts
    an extra tube stage in the signal path (where the dry and wet signals
    get mixed) some people claim it makes that channel distort better.
    However, on my Deluxe Reverb I find the tremelo channel a little too
    raspy and actually prefer the non-trem channel, which has the same
    signal path as the non-reverb Deluxes.  Don't worry, there's still
    plenty of Fender crunch, even without the extra tube stage.
    
    Blackface Fenders are funny beasts; a lot of them sound great, but
    every once in a while you catch a dog.  I've played non-reverb Deluxes
    that sounded terrific, there's nothing inherently wrong with or
    radically different about them.  They're less desirable for collectors,
    and that means you can get them fairly cheap.  If you find one that
    sounds good, grab it.
    
    /rick
    

    Thanks for the info., guys.
    
    Re .33
    
    The one I'm looking at is just a "Deluxe", no reverb. The
    guy who owns it is an amp repairman. This is one of those
    amps that he repaired, but no one came to pick up. He 
    said that he swapped the 6V6s for 6L6s. It's supposedly 
    all original. He wants $175, which sounded like a good 
    deal to me.
    
    -Tom

    
    Re: 6V6
    
    Silly me.  I must have 6BQ5s on the brain.  I think that's what Mesa
    puts into 22 Calibers.  Of course, it also provides my bass with
    classic 20-watt Traynor tone  8^)  8^)  8^)  
    
    Re: 6L6
    
    One of the two Deluxes I allued to in my earlier reply was hot-rodded
    to take 6L6s.  I'm not sure how much more power you can get (up to 50
    watts in theory if the output transformer is up to it) but his 6L6
    Deluxe is much, much louder, and cleaner than his stock one.
    
    At $175 if it works, it's worth it.  I hear that Deluxe Reverbs are
    going for $350 or so these days.
    
    Re: gigging
    
    Gee, Rick, I didn't know anybody in this file was playing in a blues
    band  8^)  8^).  We all know blues players like to use those dinky
    little *toy* amps  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian
    						fog_on_the_brain_today

    Re .0: If you don't use reverb or have some other means of getting reverb,
           then I'd say, grab it!  I paid $210 about four years ago for a
    	   blackface Deluxe Reverb, so $175 seems about right.
           
           I would consider the resale potential: IMHO a 'reverbless' 
           Deluxe is much less desirable than one with reverb...could
           this be a reason why the amp is on sale for $175 when 
    	   Deluxe Reverbs are getting $300 - 400?
    
           Regards,
    	   John Kelly
    

    I did end up buying the amp. Some Armour-all, and it looks
    brand new. Coupled with a strat, it has such a good clean
    sound, that I don't really miss reverb. The edge that you
    get when you crank it to 7 or 8 is nice too.
    
    -Tom

    Did the Armor-all make it sound better?
    
    :-) :-) :-)

    Maybe after a couple of pints!! :)

    re .38
    
    Rick, yes it did! I used the black-label-US-made 
    Armour-All, before they redesigned it and 
    went to that inferior spray-pump.
    
    -Tom

Is this what happens when you sniff the fumes of too many blown xformers?

:)

    re .40
    
    Ahh, but did you Armour-All the SPEAKERS!  It's a little known fact
    that the early blue Jensens got their warm sound from an
    application of pre-production Armour-All.  Something to do with the
    speakers being able to breathe better.
    
    8-)  8-)  8-) 
    
    Kevin

    The absence of reverb wouldn't bother me much. You could always add
    a Boss RV2 pedal, or equivalent. You could also look for a vintage
    Fender spring reverb unit to use with it. When I bought my Jazz
    Bass from Mr. Music in Allston, he had one in stock that was mint.
    
    A pre-CBS Deluxe (non reverb) may not be worth as much as a Deluxe
    Reverb, but it is still a legitimate vintage amp, and a good investment
    in my opinion. $175 is a small price to pay for a piece of history.
    
    Mark...... "Old notes never die"
    

    A friend just picked up a Princeton Reverb II (with channel switching).
    He got it used and it didn't come with a foot pedal to switch the
    channels.  He says he's tried a couple of pedals with no success.
    
    Does anybody know what kind of pedal is needed for this.  Is it
    just a contact closure?  Or something more?  Who could sell a pedal
    to do this job?
    
    								Marc

    
    
    
    	If it's a single wire pedal for channel switching (I think they
    either go to ground or don't depending on which channel is selected), I
    have a Fender switch that will work...
    
    
    Steve

    If this Princeton Reverb II is one of Fenders newer amps, it may
    require a footswitch similar to the ones they use on the New Twin.
    It is not a "short to ground" type footswitch, like most modern
    amps use. The footswitch on the Twin has four diodes inside (2 LED's
    and two regular signal diodes). Voltage is tapped off of the transformer 
    and dropped across the diodes. Comparators inside the amp sense which
    diodes are forward/reversed biased and decide which channel to select
    and turn reverb on/off. This design works well, but I would prefer
    if Fender had used "short to ground" type footswitches. It would make
    life easier all around.
    
    Mark
    

    BTW, if your friend is in the Worcester area, Kurlan's Music 
    usually has Fender footswitches in stock. Wurlitzer is also a
    Fender dealer, but I'm not sure if they stock footswitches.
    
    Good luck
    Mark
    

    Thanks, he went to his friendly Fender dealer and exchanged about
    $50 for a genuine reverb/channel switch comlete with LEDs.  What
    a deal!
    
    								Marc

    In the midst of my personal tribute to Jimi two nights ago, my Deluxe
    stopped.  Time for a repair, but I lent out my amp schematic book
    to a drummer about ten years ago and he promptly moved to Syracuse.
    I need to replace the book or get a schematic.  Can someone help?
    
    I'd rather have the book, whose title I've forgotten.  It had
    descriptions and schematics for a ton of amps built pre '75 or
    thereabouts.  Any help with the title or a source?  Rick C., I know
    you're out there!
    
    Maybe it was the Guitar Toy From Hell that did it in...
    
    In the meanwhile, fire up the Princeton Reverb!
    
    Regards,
    John K.

Is this the SAMS book on guitar amplifiers that you are looking for??
It  lists a ton of old tube amplifiers. Look in an Electronics Supply
house & have them order one for you (They might even have it in stock).

							Jens

    Groove Tubes has a book that has schematics for many amps in it.  I bet
    the deluxe is in there.
    
    Greg

    I've got the GT Book.  I'll look and see what Fender Schems are in
    it.
    
    jc

    re Jens...
    
    	The Sam's book you are refering to has been out of print for
    years,I even called Sam's and they don't even have a copy or a micro-
    fiche of it.
    
    re..mr Kelly
    
    	I'm sure if you get the number off your tube chart someone can send
    you a schem of the design....unless Rick has already sent you
    something.
    
    						"Another Rick"
    

    "personal tribute to Jimi" - I love it
    
    Help is on the way

    
    
    
    	Personal tribute to Jimi, my congratulations on your great taste...
    Any Fender amp would be happy to go on a Hendrix tune!  The book I have
    is called The AMP BOOK II and is written by the guy who owns groove
    Tubes (as mentioned in a previous reply).. You ant a copy of the deluxe
    schematic????   Got a FAX number???   BTW, and Fender dealer can get
    you a FAX of any Fender schematic for $5..  I just got one for a
    (cough) $90 foot switch for a COncert... the parts cost me 7 bucks at
    RS.
    
    
    Regards,
    Steve
    
    

    
    	A couple months ago I read an inetresting article on the Fender
    	reissue bassman amp.  They also review a few other bassman
    	"resissue" lookalikes.  Has anyone heard/seen any of these yet?
    	Thoughts?  Opinions?  Mumbles?
    
    	-pat

    I played one of the first Bassman re-issues to hit the Boston
    area, at Wurlitzers a while back.  While a decent sounding replica,
    I wasn't particularly moved by it.  I've played original tweed Bassmen
    and know what the good ones are supposed to be like; this one was just
    okay.
    
    Then, I just recently played another one.  This one was fantastic!
    Other than being a bit louder than the originals, I wouldn't have been
    able to tell the difference.  Either they "improved" them somewhat, or
    just like the real thing, you catch some good ones and some bad ones.
    
    As an interesting aside, a friend of mine who does vintage amp repair
    compared the re-issue circuit to the original '59 tweed Bassman circuit
    and found no less than 15 differences!  So much for authenticity.
    
    /rick

    
    This is a real dumb question, but can you get an overdriven tone
    from a Bassman?  That is, how do you do it?  Does it have a volume
    and master set-up?  Also, has anybody tried any of the reissue
    copies (like the Kendrick (or is it Hendrick?)?). 

    just turn it up

    The Bassman stays clean till about "4" or so, starts to sing
    till around "6" and then gets wild and urgent.  The term "cello
    like sustain" has often been used to describe the overdriven
    character.  The sound is not unlike a 60's plexi-Marshall, perhaps
    a bit less raspy; it's basically the same circuit.

    As the (original) owner of a '67 50W plexiglass Marshall (w/ Tremelo)
    I can tell you that the amp design of the Bassman from which this
    Marshall was copied, is a great design for guitar. If I could afford
    to right now i'd grab one of these even though I've got a close copy.
    
    --Ron

    Dear Ron,
    
    I WANT TO BUY YOUR MARSHALL!!!

	I just picked up a junker tube amp cheap, and want to know how to get
started on the refurbishment job.  Its a Fender Princeton Reverb, chasis-only,
and it is missing the reverb tank.  The cabinet is no sweat.  I have a reverb
tank sitting around.  ...

	To get it sounding o.k., though, I need help.  First of all, what is
the best book to buy on the subject?  The Tube Amp Book II (available from Stew-
Mac's for ~$15)?  Other?

	When I bought it, it sounded o.k., but had a pulsing sound that seemed
to clock to the vibrato speed.  Some of the pots were scratchy, too.  The mains
cord was in bad shape today so I soldered out the old one and put a new one on.
But now when I power it up it sounds terrible.  Any clues?  

	Does anyone know what tubes go in this unit off hand?  It currently has
one socket empty (size of a 12AX7A).  It has a 5Y3, two 6V6's (the guy said 
there SHOULD be 6L6's there), the empty socket, a 12AX7A, a 12AT7, and another
small one on the end that I can't read.

	Thanks for the help...

	Dan

    
>>	(the guy said there SHOULD be 6L6's there)
    
    Off hand, I can't answer about all of the tubes, but I'm sure 
    Princetons use 6V6s, not 6L6s.  
    
    Jim

    
    
    	Dan, "The Amp Book II" shows the princeton reverb with the
    following tubes:
    
    3-7025
    1-12at7
    2-6v6
    
    	But when I look at the schematic it shows a couple of 12ax7as as
    well as those I've listed.  Want a copy of my schematic?  As an aside,
    I owned one of these amps when I was a pup, and I wish I had it back,
    they are killer amps!
    
    
    Gree Vee

    Princeton Reverb has 3,7025's(12ax7's)1 12at7,5u4 and 2 6V6's....
    
    
    Dan, If you need help send mail....

    re: 5U4
    
    Dan's original note on the Princeton said it had a 5Y3 in it. 
    I thought the Princeton used something other than a 5Y3GT for a
    rectifier tube, and this last note confirms it.  Would a 5Y3
    hack it in this circuit?  I know the 5Y3 is what goes in a six
    watt champ.
    
    

	Thanks for the leads on this...  

	Based on the discussion - do you all think the 5Y3 shouldn't be there?
Rick - is a 12AX7A the same as a 7025?

	Any thoughts on the problems?  The pulsing and the distorted sound?

	Dan

>>>	Yow!  No 5Y3?  What are 7025's?  Are they large like the 6V6 or small 
    
    A 7025 is a 12AX7A.
    
    My guess is the circuit is logically like the following:
    
    	        
    120V AC --> 5U4 --> DC voltage used to power system
    
    guitar --> 12AX7 (7025) --+-------------+--> 12AT7 --> 6V6 pair
    	             +--------/		    |		   power amp
    		     |			    |
    		     +- reverb --> 12AX7  --+
    		     |	tank		    |
    		     |			    |
    		     +-- tremolo -> 12AX7 --+
    
    
    
    		

	Nice amp.

	The 7025 and 12AX7A are functionally equivalent. From what I
	understand the 12AX7A is quieter.

	I don't know if you have a problem with the 5Y3. It sounds about
	right for a 25wt amp. There are also solid-state replacements for 
	that tube that might be a bit more reliable.

	No clue about the problem....


	Here's a question for the readership: anybody know what a Fender
	Yale Reverb amp is?

>	I don't know if you have a problem with the 5Y3. It sounds about
>	right for a 25wt amp. There are also solid-state replacements for 
>	that tube that might be a bit more reliable.

	Would the use of a solid-state functional replacement make this amp less
"tubish" soundwise?  How do I find out more about this kind of replacement?

	Anybody have recommendations on a book?  I'd like to order one today if 
possible.

	Dan

    	The 5y3 was seen in the older princeton's and the non reverb
    models,a 5U4 will work or a Gz34. I prefer the Gz34 over either
    rectifier tube. I find it gives "better compression/tone" than the 
    rest. The solid state replacement I've used is pretty simple,but I'd
    recommend staying with tubes. 7025's and 12ax7's are interchangeable,
    however the 12ax7's sound better to my ear.
    	Pulsing and distortion could be due to a bad or near gone
    capacitor..... it's hard to tell over the tube :^) you got schem's for
    it? 
    
    							Rick
    

>    	The 5y3 was seen in the older princeton's and the non reverb
>    models,a 5U4 will work or a Gz34. I prefer the Gz34 over either
>    rectifier tube. I find it gives "better compression/tone" than the 
>    rest.

	Are there any mods that need to take place to put the Gz34 in place of 
the 5Y3?

> The solid state replacement I've used is pretty simple,but I'd
>    recommend staying with tubes. 7025's and 12ax7's are interchangeable,
>    however the 12ax7's sound better to my ear.

>    	Pulsing and distortion could be due to a bad or near gone
>    capacitor..... it's hard to tell over the tube :^) you got schem's for
>    it? 

	I don't have schematics yet, but am working on it.  I don't really have 
to any need for the vibrato - if I left out the tube for it (once I determine 
which it is), would the amp still work? 

	Dan

    
>	Are there any mods that need to take place to put the Gz34 in place of 
>the 5Y3?

*** no

>	I don't have schematics yet, but am working on it.  I don't really have 
>to any need for the vibrato - if I left out the tube for it (once I determine 
>which it is), would the amp still work? 

*** It might not work,depending on the vintage of the amp sometimes half of
the 12ax7 is used in the phase inverter stage. If you think the tremelo 
circuit is your problem you should be able to shut it off via the jack on 
the back of the amp. The phase inverter/tremelo tube should be located
right next to the 6v6's. 

							Rick

    Check a recent Stewart-Macdonald catalog.  They sell a book/video
    package "How to Repair Tube Amplifiers" or something similar, written
    by a professional amp tech.  It has it's limitations, but it's still
    probably the best self-help resource around for working on tube amps,
    especially for novices.  In fact, my complaint with it is that it devotes
    too much time and space to basics like how to solder, how to test for
    shorts, etc.  It does have some nifty troubleshooting flowcharts that
    I've found very useful; these are much better than the one in the GT book.
    Note that I've also seen this available in local (Boston) music stores.
    
    This package has no schematics for specific amps; the Groove Tube book
    is a great source of vintage amp schematics if you can't locate one
    elsewhere, and the book is probably worth having around anyway.
    
    /rick

>*** It might not work,depending on the vintage of the amp sometimes half of
>the 12ax7 is used in the phase inverter stage. If you think the tremelo 
>circuit is your problem you should be able to shut it off via the jack on 
>the back of the amp. The phase inverter/tremelo tube should be located
>right next to the 6v6's. 

	Oh, that jack - the one that has been removed with nary a trace...

	I saw that ad, too.  The only thing that put me off was the $50 price
tag.  Is it cheaper anywhere else?  It sounds, from your description, like it
would be a good source for help.

	Dan

	Ok .... I don't give up that easy....so there has been a few mods to 
    the amp? :^) Maybe the next step is to make sure the tremelo is really 
    working which is what you believe tobe the problem. Somewhere to the right
     of the preamp circuitry there should be a device which is flashing a 
    light which usually has some black heat shrink looking material covering 
    it. If the trem is working this light will be flashing,notice there are 
    four leads coming out of it 2 on each side. As you turn up the speed the 
    speed of the flash should increase. By disconnecting and removing this 
    you should be disabling the trem circuit. 
	

    							Rick

	I'll chjeck this out tonight (hopefully).

	Dan

                   RE: .74
    
    
    >If you think the tremelo circuit is your problem you should be able to
    >shut it off via the jack on  the back of the amp
    
    
    	Rick, I think that Fender tremolos are normally off, so Dan would
    turn it ON using the rca receptacle at the back (taking the hot lead to
    ground) but it would be off to begin with no??
    
    
    Gree Vee (low tech, guitar dude)

    
    
    
    
    	Dan, I base this on absolutely NO technical expertise, but in reply
    to your notes a couple back:
    
    1. I believe that going to a solid state rectifier like the one sold by
    GT WOULD impact the tone, and I think it would impact it in a negative
    way.
    
    2. I'm going to go way out on a limb and guess that the jack that
    controls the tremolo is shorted to ground and that if you see
    continuity between the hot lead and the chassis, fixing the short will
    fix the problem.. I think that the oscillation is the tremolo stuck in
    the "ON" position.
    
    
    Steve

	I would suspect that a solid state rectifier would have minimal
	impact on the tone (My Twin Reverb has a solid state rectifier
	bridge in it - I find no problems). Since a rectifier is really
	nothing more than a diode, and this is used to set up the + voltage
	to the power supply, as long as it allows current to flow only one
	direction (ie the action of a diode), I can't see how a solid
	state recitfier would impact the tone negatively. Go with the
	solid state replacement here.

							Jens

    
    
    
    
    
    
    	Jens, sounds like you know a heck of a lot more about it than I do,
    lemme ask you , for my own info.. don't these rectifier deals have
    something to do with the "flow" of the voltage..?  Isn't voltage
    flowing what valve amps are all about??
    
    
    

        I don't understand how a solid state rectifier can affect the
        sound.  
        
        It sits before the capacitors, thus is isolated from the tubes.
        
        As long as it is large enough to keep the resistance low and
        allow for quick recharge time, the only effect I can see is a
        drastic reduction in the total heat produced, thus increasing the
        life of the rest of the tubes and other components.
        
        Bob

    Steve, voltage doesn't "flow", current flows. Voltage is a measure
    of potential differance between two points in a circuit. If you
    measure the potential differance between the negative and positive
    terminals of a car battery, you would find it to be 12v. Current
    is what flows through the various circuits in the car and this
    is measured in amps. Batteries are rated in terms of how much
    current they can provide, and for how long, that is why batteries
    are rated in ampere/hours.
    
    In a tube amp, current flows from the B+ supply into the amplifier
    circuit by using the gas trapped inside the tube as a medium. In
    a transistor, current flows from the supply into the amplifier
    by using "carriers" as the medium. The fact that transistors use
    solid material instead of gas as a medium makes for a far more
    stable amplifier which is less sensitive to heat and vibration.
    Unfortuneatly these are the same factors which give tube amps
    their sweet sound.
    
    Just my 2c worth of technodroool !!
    Mark 
    
    

    By the way, I'm gonna share a couple of paragraphs from Aston
    Pittman's book (The tube amp book II):
    
    A rectifier tube converts the AC wall electricity to the DC
    electricity used inside your amp to power the preamp tubes
    and the power amp tubes. Normally, the rectifier tube will
    only be found on older amps or lower power amps such as Fender
    Princetons and Deluxe/Reverbs. The guitar's signal never 
    actually passes through this tube so the rectifier has no
    direct effect on the sound of your amp. However, since it
    acts as a power supply tube for the other tubes it can "sag"
    when the demand for power is great (for instance when you 
    turn it up or pluck the stings hard). Higher power amps all
    have an improved rectifier section that's made with solid-
    state diodes that will deliver more power without any "sag".
    Marshalls, Boogies, Twin/reverbs all have solid-state rectifiers.
    If your tube rectifier fails, the amp's pilot light will stay
    on, but no sound whatsoever will be heard. We at <name deleted> 
    offer many types of tube rectifier replacements and produce a 
    plug-in solid-state rectifier replacement that usually improves 
    the overall tightness of the amps sound and will in some cases 
    increase the power output. We usually recommend this conversion 
    to the solid-state rectifier but caution the owner of the real 
    old amps to have it installed by a tech who can monitor the amp's 
    performance since it may have several capacitors or resistors 
    that are ready to fail. The increased volatage the solid-state 
    rectifier supplies may cause these older components to fail sooner. 
    Once they have been replaced, the amp will have increased performance, 
    and the rectifier need never be replaced again.
    
    recopied without permission.
    
    I'll tell ya, this book is well worth the $15 it sells for.
     
    Mark

    The higher voltage provided by a SS rectifier provides the amp with
    more headroom. This can substantially change the distortion sound of
    the amp. Although I prefer this sound, I've heard players complain that
    they can't get an overdrive sound without having the volume too high.
    
    Danny W.

        >I don't understand how a solid state rectifier can affect the
        >sound.  

	Theoretically you would think it would help but it doesn't if it
	increases clean headroom and what you want is a lower,less stable
	plate voltages,to get a certain overdriven sound at a lower volume.
	This is what I heard when I replaced my 5u4 with the GT rectifier
	diode assembly. To me it changed responsiveness of the amp and tone.
	(which is very subjective)

        >As long as it is large enough to keep the resistance low and
        >allow for quick recharge time, the only effect I can see is a
        >drastic reduction in the total heat produced, thus increasing the
        >life of the rest of the tubes and other components.
        
	Actually I would think the solid state would be less forgiving to
	a vacumn tube as power ramp up time would be quicker right? This
	may be a minor nit.
	Decreasing reliability due to more heat is really a trade off for
	a certain amount of overdrive,distortion and warmth. This is not
	a hi fi application.....

	What most people don't realize is that the overdrive sound they 
	want is not really found in the preamp,but a combo of both the 
	preamp and power amp section. 

	As to whether it's good or bad I'm not going to debate. It's really
	what you prefer sound wise. If you don't hear a difference it 
	doesn't matter. Then again you may want the extra clean headroom.
	
	So Dan E how's the Princeton working?

    
    
    
    	Mark, and other helpful dude who's name I forgit, thanks for the
    high tech lingo... essentially I hear you saying that it's not near the
    sound so it doesn't affect it.. I appreciate you taking time to explain
    to me... but I still got this gut feeling that says anything, that
    changes the way Leo and Doc designed them will change the sound.. yep,
    even putting on those cool radio shack knobs!  Heh, heh...  I'm gonna
    leave mine alone... Mark, doesn't that Pitman dude SELL these things??? 
    Wouldn't he be apt to recommend them???  ;^)
    
    Gree Vee Stick in the Mud
    

    RE: tube rectifiers
    
    The Guitar Player issue on amps (last October ??) that had the "Bassman
    Shootout" had some comments on tube rectafiers.  The Fender Bassman
    reissue has a solid state rectifier (it can be replaced with a tube
    for those who prefer).  The Kendrick bassman clone uses a tube.  THD 
    uses a solid state circuit that emulates the performance of a tube
    rectafier.  In general, the comments are similar to what has been said
    here: a solid state rectifier increases power, headroom, and tightens
    up the sound, while a tube rectafier is "spongier," has more
    compression, and will allow the amp to hit overdrive sooner.  FWIW,
    most of the four reviewers in the GP article prefered the Fender reissue 
    with the solid state rectifier.  
    
    Jim

	... so how do I get one of these high voltage rectal things, anyway?  
And how much do they cost?

	I haven't done much of anything with it yet.  I tried it out again last 
night and it sounded better than the last time.  Now, however, there are two
pulses going on - each independent of the other.  One speeds up and slows down
with the vibrato control, the other starts out slow and speeds up the longer the 
amp is on.

	Tell me something, folks.  Would it be better for me to just bring this
amp to a shop and have them look at it or is it worthwhile to pay the $50 for 
that tube amp repair video from stew-macs?

	I finally found out what "black-face" really means last night - I always
thought that was in reference to the color of the grill-cloth!  This amp is a
black-face, btw.

	Dan

>>>	... so how do I get one of these high voltage rectal things, anyway?  
>>>    And how much do they cost?
    
    I just bought a new 5Y3GT tube from Radio Shack -- $6.95.  The solid
    state replacement would have cost $11.95 (I think).  Radio Shack prices
    are generally high, but they are convenient.  No minimum order either...
    
    Jim

	Looking through the catalog, I don't see anything specific for a 5u4
replacement.  Is this something special you have to ask for (perhaps know some
secret handshake or sumpin? 8^)?

	Dan

re: -1
<	... so how do I get one of these high voltage rectal things, anyway?  
<And how much do they cost?

Dan, that was the best laugh I've had in a while !  Thanks !   8^)

Scary (who wants NO part of *any* type rectal thing, regardless of voltage !)

    
    
    
    	The GT ELectronics dudes sell something called an SSu4???  I'm not
    sure if one would order directly or have a store get it, though.  Dan,
    if it were me.. I'd opt for the adventure of fixing it myself.. except
    the first thing they say is "OK, hook up your scope..."  And I go...
    "Scope?"   Heh Heh.. the cost may be more than the 50 bucks for the
    video if you don't have (or can't borrow) all the whiz kid toys.
    
    

	Rick Calcagni - can you give a bit of an idea what tools the guy with on
the video requires to run his tests/maintenance?

	Yeah, Steve, I'd be much more inclined to work it myself for the 
educational element of it.  I don't have much for tools beyond a multi-meter...

	Dan

    One thing NOT mentioned about SS Rects, is that if it's a older amp,
    say with POSSIABLE internal trouble, the higher voltage and surge
    rush of the SS unit can cause problems.  BE CAREFULL!
    
    I found that video to be "so-so".  Watch it 1st if you can to see.
    
    Rule of thumb: If it came with a tube rect, use the tube....
    
    I'll put a schematic up tommorrow to show how to wire up ya own SS
    rect, using 4 diodes (RS, 2.5 amp, 1kv).  It's easy, and ya can change
    it back if desired.  
    
    Jay Tashjian
    

	I dropped into a Radio Shack last night and ordered the solid-state 
replacement for the tube rectifier.  It sells for $8.95.  

	When you say be careful - what do you suggest as precautionary measures?

	Dan

    >	When you say be careful - what do you suggest as precautionary measures?
    
    Flack jacket?

	I keep a fire extinguisther handy whenever I open up my amp.

re .97

>    Rule of thumb: If it came with a tube rect, use the tube....


	Doesn't this translate to "Rule of Thumb: Don't use SSU4, et al."? 
	
	Because they're only intended to be used as replacements in circuits
	design for the vacuum tube equivalent.

I never gave a lot of thought to the fact that a tube rectifier might
work less efficently, and this in turn would affect the sound as a higher
load was placed on it. Bad capacitors should enhance this effect. To be
totally honest, I'd rather the Solid State recitifiers and good capacitors.
I love the sound of my tube amp. A good power supply should let you get
the effects of everything else working together. If you really want to
adjust your sound based on over-driving or under-driving the voltage,
get a Variac (a variable transformer - set the voltage to what you want),
and adjust as desired. Unless you are blasting out at very high volumes,
or your house is wired with 22 gauge wire, I can't think of a time when
this would occur (unless your capacitors are shot) consistantly.

							Jens

    Sorry, I forgot the schematic to upload here, I will do it Sunday.
    
    Yes, I guess that is what I mean.  The tube rect is important to
    the sound, and the B+ actions on the circuit.
    
    I think the SS recitifier is better, in the long run.  More steady
    supply of B+, less draw on the transformer, and cooler running.
    
    The tube unit does allow for a time period between the heaters warming
    up to the time the B+ is applied.  This extends tube life somewhat.
    
    If ya see my ideas on Power supplies in 1994, I think you'll see I'm
    a picky sucker when it comes to Power supply design.  I've designed
    SS regulators to mimic up to 100,000uf at 500vts.  the idea is that
    the better the PS, the better the amp runs.
    
    Look also in #1994 for my Mouser replacement ##s for Fender PS caps,
    which allow up to 3 times the cap supply values, and they fit
    inside the Fender can.
    
    NEVER use a variac, unless ya can afford power supply, power
    transformers, and output transformers at will.  If ya do, let me
    fix them when they die.  I'd love the money.
    
    Jay Tashjian
    

Just received a flyer from a vintage music dealer this weekend. They
have some great stuff. Some of it very pricy (that's price-ee). One
tiem that stuck in my mind, though, is a white Twin in exc condition
for $1500. Is that a lot? About a year ago they listed one for $1000.
Last summer they listed a 1959 Bassman an just said "Best offer".

    Well, I found this topic again..couldn't get in for days.
    
    
    I loaded my tube to solid state rectifier mod under 1994, sorry if you
    have been looking for it here.
    
    Jay Tashjian
    

    Is there such a thing as a solid state Deluxe?  If so, I'd like to see
    some comments on it since I don't know a thing about Fender amps.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    
    
    	Noooooooooper, Mikey.. no solid state deluxes... him.. my guess
    would be that the closest thang (and it's one hell of a long way off)
    would be an old studio lead or something like that.  Anybody using one
    of teh new vibroverb re-issues yet???
    
    Gree Vee

        Steve -  I've  had  my  '63  reissue  Vibroverb for a couple of
        months now - magic with the Plus or the Carvin twin neck...
        
        Come play it  when you're in the Manchester NH area next (might
        even find a beer in that little cold closet in the kitchen...)
        
        Andy
        

RE:    Is there such a thing as a solid state Deluxe?
    
    I wouldn't be too certain that at some point in time Fender didn't
    try to market something like a solid state deluxe. They've done
    a lot of wierd things with their amp line over the past 30 years.
    

    
    
    
    	Yeah, like an 85 watt, Black Face Twin re-issue!!!  I gotta hear
    this one!  Hay Jay T. I thought I heard you (read you) say that Fender
    wawnt gonna do any more re-issue amps!  I heard this twin rumor last
    night!
    
    
    Gree Vee

    I think one of the new-style Fender amps is called 
    the Deluxe 85. It has the red knobs (like the Twin), and
    is solid state. I don't think it's really 85 watts, but it's
    possible. Is this what we're talking about?
    
    -Tom

    My (recently departed) bass player had that amp for when he used his
    guitar or we had someone sittin' in. It was supposedly all tube
    in the power section and I think the preamp was solid state,..
    but don't quote me. I'm not an amp efficianado,.. if it makes
    good noises,.. I'll play through it :-}
    
    							/Bill
    

    Fender's first batch of solid state amps, circa 1966, included a Deluxe
    Reverb. With 1-12" speaker and 35 watts rms, it really helped establish
    the CBS stigma. I doubt that we'll see a reissue.
    
    Danny W.

	RE: the Vibroverb reissue:

		1. Is it a 2x10 or 2x12?

		2. How faithful is the circuitry to the original?

		3. How many RMS watts?

		4. Is it the same basic amp as the super reverb
			with a different speaker configuration?

		5. Anyone try/buy one yet and have a review?

	/Steve

        Re Vibroverb reissue, quotes from the manual...
        
>        	1. Is it a 2x10 or 2x12?

                "2 x 10" Oxford Speaker Company speakers with 7DF paper
        cones and surrounds, 1-1/4" voice coils  and  kraft  paper coil
        formers  like  the  original  Vibroverb  speakers (part  number
        037076)"
        
>		2. How faithful is the circuitry to the original?
                ...
                "Fender's  '63 Vibroverb re-issue amplifier is based on
        the  original  cosmetics, sound and circuit.  Every effort  was
        made to be true to the original."
        
                Several changes  were  made  for safety and reliability
        reasons."
        
        PCB rather than phenolic 'parts panel' of the '60s.
        3 prong line cord for safety reasons.
        Minor modifications to  the  circuit since certain parts are no
        longer available.
        Solid State rectifier rather than 5AR4 tube.
        
        All internal voltage values  have been precisely matched to the
        new solid state rectifier to  insure  exact  sonic reproduction
        and no alterations to the vintage sound.
        
        "The  speakers  used  in the '63 Vibroverb are reproductions of
        the original speakers made by the Oxford Speaker Company.  When
        Fender started  work  on  this project, Fender contacted Oxford
        who still had much of the original tooling and documentation of
        this 10 inch speaker from the early sixties."

		3. How many RMS watts?

                40 watts RMS minimum into 4 ohms.
        
		4. Is it the same basic amp as the super reverb
			with a different speaker configuration?

                Dunno...I think not...
        
		5. Anyone try/buy one yet and have a review?

                Had mine for one  week short of a year - I bought it in
        May 1991, and given the choice I would do the same now - it's a
        great amp.
        
        Andy
        

    re: -1
    
    Thanks Andy!   
    
    One question I forgot to mention- are the power tubes 6L6 or 6V6?
    
    /Steve

    The vibroverb power amp has a pair of 6L6s.
    
    Jim
    

    For what it's worth; a solid state rectifier is more voltage-stable than a
    tube rectifier, and is able to deliver more current to the circuit on 
    demand (high volumes) than a tube rectifier. These two facts mean that
    there will be a subtle difference in the sound of a reissue from an
    original. Generally, the differences can be described as a later
    (higher volume) onset of clipping and more high end tone.
    Whether or not this is good or desirable is in the ears of
    the beholders.
    
    Bill

    
    It certainly is a good looking amp (imo) and the craftmanship also
    seems first rate.  Geez, one of the Vibroverbs and a tube screamer,
    yer good to go.  Oh, and don't forget the blond strat!  This amp was 
    also tested in GP's combo issue, and I *believe* they weren't wild about
    it, but their parameters were based around "all around" performance,
    and not just vintage tone.   

    Pat,
    
    I agree,  the vibroverb is very tempting...  only problem is: what
    would we do with our M1's? 
    
    /steve

    
    	Wilbur, we'd keep 'em of course.  In twenty years we'll be rich,
    	as they will appreciate plus ourDEC stock will also have risen to
    	above $60/share!!!!!!~ 

    Just a general response to Steve Goodwin (something mentioned in the KH
    note).
    
    Steve, the Vibroverbs are in fact in big demand.  They are the rarest,
    most sought after, and most expensive vintage Fender amp around; even
    more than the infamous late 50's 4x10 Bassman.
    
    Vibroverbs were only made for a short time in 1963, they are the first
    Fender combo amp to have reverb, the only brown amp to have it, and the
    only one to have it with the older style tremolo circuit (more intense
    than later blackface).  There's also some cool trick on one of the controls
    (treble I think) that taps the tone circuits, giving a unique sound.
    The re-issue supposedly has this too, btw.  I've seen clean original
    Vibroverbs going for $3000 and more.
    
    I agree, a blackface Super would be a cool re-issue.  I'm sure they'll
    get around to it eventually.
    
    /rick

    
    Jerry just told me that a '63 Vibroverb reissue can be had locally 
    (in Greenville) for about $699...

	Methinks a Super reissue would chew into sales of the current
	crop of Supers. Check out the current Super 60, 112, or 210. 
	Simple to operate and boy, do they sound sweet.

    Or buy the '65 twin re-issue and pull out 2 of the power
    tubes.
    
    Jim

    The key to the appeal of the blackface Supers is the 4x10 speakers;
    almost like a 4x10 Bassman with reverb.  In fact, the blackface Supers
    were actually marketed as sort of an updated Bassman re-issue at the
    time, although they are different beasts.
    
    A black Super is de rigeuer on the blues circuit these days, with
    prices starting to climb the way tweed Bassman did a few years ago.
    I'd bet a re-issue is on the drawing boards even as we speak.
    
    /rick

	re: .122, .126

	Rick,

	I should know to consult you first with questions about the
	vintage Fender stuff!

	I wasn't familiar with the vibroverbs..  they were just a tad
	before my time.. 8^)   Are there any classic tunes I'd recognize
	that'd have what could be called a distinct vibroverb sound?

	I still think that Fender, having only produced the originals
	for less than one full year, would have been better off re-issuing
	an amp that more people might have previously owned.

	I hope you're right about an eventual blackface super reverb
	re-issue though...  if they do it, I'll be the first customer.

	/Steve

    Just heard this from a fairly reliable source; Fender is planning to
    re-issue the blackface Super Reverb sometime next year.  Hopefully
    they'll do as nice a job on these as on the previous re-issues.  I
    also wouldn't be surprised to see a blackface Deluxe Reverb re-issue
    coming too; these and Supers are the hot numbers in vintage Fenders
    these days.  People in that company appear to be listening lately.
    
    Trivia: one subtle but interesting difference between the 4x10 tweed
    Bassman and the 4x10 black Super is the speaker baffle board; 5/16"
    on the Bassman and 1/2" on the Super.  The thinner Bassman board flexes
    more and tends to have a rounder, fuller tone; the thicker Super board
    supresses some frequencies, resulting in a hollower, throatier sound
    (e.g., the classic SRV tone is pure black Super).
    
    As I recall, Fender even made some mention of the baffle board
    difference in last year's GP Bassman shootout article.
    
    /rick

    FWIW - There is a Super 'Verb at Rice Music in The Springs - looks
    nice!
    
    j

    More re-issue news: my hunch confirmed, Fender will be doing a
    blackface Deluxe Reverb re-issue along with the Super.  Also coming,
    re-issue tube reverb units.  Cowabunga!

    If they make it a faithful repro of a pre-CBS blackface super reverb
    (that would mean vintage '63 or '64 by necessity), I'll definitely plan
    to pick one up and post the first review here.  Remember, the power
    stage in those things ran at a 2 ohm load (4x10" in parallel) which was
    also a factor in the sound.
    
    Could this be the 2nd coming of Tone?
    
    /Steve

    >Could this be the 2nd coming of Tone?
 
    More likely the second coming of players who remember their old amps
    fondly and dislike the way newer amps are voiced.     
    
    							Brian

    
    Steve, what are the advantages of the super reverb over the vibroverb in
    your opinion?  
    
    -pat (still on the hunt)

    RE.-1
    
    I'll second the motion!
    

    re: -1 
    
    I have no idea...why would you ask me that?
    
    Steve

    re: .134
    
    Pat,
    
    I don't have alot of background on the vibroverbs, so someone else
    might be able to do a more detailed comparison of the two amps. I'm
    sure they're two very different sounding beasts though.
    
    The vibroverb is a 2x10 combo, where the super reverb is a 4x10.
    I also suspect that the blackface supers (which were around 40 watts
    RMS) are somewhat more powerful than the vibroverbs, but I'm not
    certain about that.
    
    As Rick C. mentioned earlier, the blackface super reverbs are the
    vintage amps of choice on the blues circuit.  I can agree because
    I've seen quite a few blues bands whose guitarists use them. That
    may also have something to do with SRV's popularity, but the black-
    face supers are unquestionably a 'super' sounding amp.
    
    /Steve

    Super Reverbs and VibroVerbs have similar output stages. Both are
    between 40W and 45W, I believe. As someone else stated, Supers have 2
    ohm outputs, but I don't think this is much of a factor in the sound
    per se (as long as you have the proper speaker load on it), but I could
    be wrong.

    The big difference between the two is the front-end circuitry. There are
    three *basic* Fender design (with plenty of variations on each) each
    corresponding to a particular 'era' of Fender amp.  They are:

      Tweed
      White and Brown tolex
      Blackface

      o The tweed amps had preamps configured like old Marshalls (Marshall
        copied the design). They had two input preamps mixed into a single
        tone stage.

      o The White and Brown Tolex amps had tone stages built into the two
        preamps and THEN mixed before the driver stage. They also had early
        version tremelo circuits.

      o The blackface amps had redesigned preamps (again with integrated
        tone stages) and redesigned vibrato circuits.

    The '63 VibroVerb has all the good stuff from the white/brown era plus
    reverb. The difference in the sound from a blackface SuperReverb is
    going to be primarily from the different tone circuits and I suppose
    having half the speakers and smaller box. Actually, I believe the '63
    VibroVerb is very much like a brown super (a 2x10 amp) but with reverb.
    Brown supers are considered to be great amps. One of Big Al Anderson's
    favorites.

    Personally, I am intrigued by the '63 VibroVerb. I'm anxious to check
    it out and hope to own one someday. That and a reissue '59 Bassman. And
    maybe a...

        If you want to try  out  a  '63 reissue Vibroverb let me know -
        I've had one for over a  year  and you're welcome to come up to
        the  house and make some noise!   Even  have  a  resident  bass
        player and a drum machine :*)
        
        Andy
        

    Previous replies have pretty well covered it I think.  The most
    prominent sonic difference between the two will be from the 2x10
    vs the 4x10 speakers.  I have known people in live situations to
    have trouble getting enough clean volume out of a Viborverb sized
    amp; the 4x10 Super pushes more air, and seems to be the perfect
    club sized amp.
    
    Re the 2 ohm output stage: some people claim there is a sonic
    difference here but I'm not sure.  I can't say I've ever really
    heard it.  Note that a 2 ohm load will draw more current in the
    output transformer's secondary windings than a 4 or 8 for the
    same power.

    
    	Thanks for the great info (really!).  Sometimes this conference
    	boogies.  I am interested in how useable the vibro (tremolo)
    	circuit is.  That would make a decision easier, imo.  I have seen
    	this '63 reissue in a store whilst on the road and it exuded 
    	an air of fine craftsmanship.

Well my recent search for an amp has ended with the purchase of a 
Fender Vibroverb reissue. 
	Prior to the purchase I've been using a Marshall 
Lead 12 combo for practice and a silver face Twin Reverb
for when I want to rattle the windows. I've been playing a variety
of guitars including a tele (fast becoming my favorite), strat+,
LP, and several RICs.  I've not been happy with sound of my Fender
guitars through that little Marshall. The Twin has great tone, but
it has a surplus of *loud* for my needs. So I was looking for
something that I could practice with that would give good tone, but
would also have enough thrathos ( Greek for guts- from a James Bond movie, 
I was gonna say balls, but it seems to be politically incorrect these
days, but I digress).
	Anyway, I like Fender tone so I figured I'd check out some
used (excuse me, I mean *vintage*) stuff and look at a Princeton
Reverb or a Super Reverb and anything in between. I found a Princeton
reverb ($350) which sounded great but it ran outa steam when ya 
cranked it up. Not a bad little amp but not real cheap. You can
imagine the prices for a Super Reverb.
	I hopped over to the friendly local Fender dealer to check
out what they had in the way of re-issues and/or tube amps. To my
surprise they had three re-issues. The 63 vibroverb, tweed bassman
(40w 4x10) and a black face Twin Reverb.
	Well I checked out the Vibroverb and was quite impressed, so
after the time honored ritual of bickering over price, one still in
the carton was deposited in the trunk of my car for the journey home.
	Here are the raw statistics on the Vibroverb reiissue:

Dimensions:	Height: 19-3/8"
		Width:	25"
		Depth:	8-5/8"
Weight:		ONLY 46 pounds! No fork lift required.
Power:		40 watts RMS into 4 ohms
Speakers:	2x10" Oxford with paper cones and surrounds, 1-1/4"
		voice coils and kraft paper coil formers like the
		originals

	As for appearance, it is the same shape and general layout as
a twin Reverb. Although the same shape, it is slightly smaller in size 
and much lighter. It is covered with a light brown Tolex and the spearker 
grill is the traditional fender texture and weave but a sort of tan color.
The Fender logo on the Grill is a flat silver metal script medallion.
The control panel is a dark brown with white lettering and has milk
dud (anyone remember those?) knobs. It also has the traditional "ruby
red" power indicator light. My spouse looked at this amp and
said, "Are they still making them that ugly?". Actually I kinda like
the way it looks. But what do I know? I drive an ugly car.
	I've not played a *Real* used (there I go again, I mean *vintage*)
Vibroverb so I can't really voice an opinion about how well the re-issue
compares with the real thing.
	The amp has two separate channels. One is called "normal" and has 
two inputs (1&2). Input 1 has a 6db boost over input 2. This is just done 
with a different input impedance for each jack. The normal channel has volume
treble and bass control. 
	The second channel is called the bright channel. This
channel has more treble. In later years fender added a bright switch on
their other amps, so you can have the bright feature on either channel.
This channel has volume, treble, base, reverb, & vibrato controls.
Reverb and vibrato only affect the bright channel.  The bright channel 
also has two inputs with the same 6db differential between them.
	There is an interesting feature to the tone control. It is flat 
at the 5 setting. Anthing above 5 is actually a treble boost kinda like 
an active tone control.
	The reverb is different than what I have on my twin, and I didn't 
like it at first but after fiddling with the tone controls for a while I 
started to get some really great tone. A little bit of reverb goes a
long way on this amp. You can use this reverb to get a sort of B3 organ
kind of tone with some finger picked chords. 
	This amp is a perfect match for a tele. It has a good rockabilly
twang, but you can coax some really good blues notes out of it as well.
I spent air time on my strat plus as well and this amp really brings out
the best. Something I really like about this amp is that it sounds great
at low volume as well as high volume.
	Something else that I've noticed again with the tele is that it
sounds really neat when playing without a pick and/or with some finger
picking techniques.
	It also comes with a foot switch that controls both vibrato and reverb.
On the back of the chassis it has the traditional fender ground, power,
and standby switches. It has a 3 prong power cord which is nice to see
as well. For the EEs in the crowd it also comes with a schematic so ya
can figure out what's really inside.
	The bottom line is that I really love this amp and really is
beyond my expectations for what I had in mind. It is well worth the
trip to your local Fender purveyor for a test drive.

        Another happy  '63  Vibroverb reissue owner!  :^) I've had mine
        for well over a year now and am still as happy with it.
        
                Andy
        

    
    Congrats!  I'm getting greener by the minute here!  A couple FAQ's ;^)
    
    How does it sound cranked?  
    
    Is it loud enough to gig with?  
    
    How would you rate the workmanship?  (I saw one and it was _perfect_)

    Does this amp come with a line out or an effects loop?  I like
    the separate EQ for the each channel.  My be time to switch from my 
    Super 60. 
    
    The weight difference would also be welcome.  
    
    Mike

    There's been mention of 2 seperate channels, but can it be switched via
    the pedal ?  I know the pedal switches reverb and vibrato, but ...
    
    Jerry

    The vintage reissue amps do NOT have line outs, effect loops, channel
    switching, master volumes or overdrive.  Just like the originals. 
    
    						Zoot Horn Rolodex

        It  sounds   great  cranked  -  providing  you  don't  put  any
        transistors into the audio chain. I run mine as follows:
        
                          electric string
                Strat + ------------------- Vibroverb
        
        and that gives  me  that  vintage  sound that all the processor
        people are trying to simulate. ;*}
        
        Andy
        

    
    Andy, do you use a tube screamer (or comparable)?

re: last few

>    
>    How does it sound cranked?  
>    

I've only cranked it up with the tele, but it will overdrive easily. 
The tele really screams.

>    Is it loud enough to gig with?  
>    

You probably wouldn't want to do a heavy metal gig with it, but yeah I
think you could gig with it in *small* clubs. Its got as much power as 
a super reverb, but only 2 speakers. My guess is that a super reverb might
make a better all-round gig amp.

>    How would you rate the workmanship?  (I saw one and it was _perfect_)
>

This one was right out of the box, and I couldn't find a flaw. It is really
sturdy construction and no rattles. Tolex and grill fabric all perfectly
in place. 

>    Does this amp come with a line out or an effects loop?  I like
>    the separate EQ for the each channel.  My be time to switch from my 
>    Super 60. 
>    

No lineout or effects loop. I don't think anyone heard of these in '63.
Any effects or stomps you plug into the input jack on your preferred 
channel.

>    The weight difference would also be welcome.  
>    

This one is 46 pounds, about the weight of two bags of cat litter.
It has a handle on top and is easy to carry with one hand (the amp,
*not* the cat litter).

>    There's been mention of 2 seperate channels, but can it be switched via
>    the pedal ?  I know the pedal switches reverb and vibrato, but ...
>    

There is no channel switching. You basically plug in to your channel of
preference. I imagine I'll be perpetually be using the bright channel.
Kinda like always having the "brite" switch on, on a twin reverb.

Editorial Comment: 

This amp is a recreation of a 63 vibroverb. As such it lacks the support
for effects and channel switching, and other gadgets found on more modern
amps. What you *do* get with this amp, is some incredible sound, and that
is exactly why I snarfed this thing up. It is really vintage fender, and
I can now understand why some folks pay big $$$ for some of those old amps.
The sound is something *special*. Anyway get that vintage sound with a
warranty, for a reasonable price ($575), buy a vibroverb, you'll be glad
you did! (No, this is not a paid commercial message)

jim

        No tube  screamer  - just let the pickup coil interact with the
        input stage and  you can go from sweet blues to overdriven tube
        - the breakup is nice and progressive. Really is a great amp.
        
        Andy
        
        PS.  my Carvin 100 watt sounds 'glassy' by comparison - doesn't
        have the warmth of the 'verb - too clean maybe...
        

     I was curious as to how much of the original design Fender 
     stuck to, with the Fender Vibroverb Reissue. Jim Rosenkranz
     was kind enough to send me a copy of the schematic to look at.
     	Well, I don't see any differences, at all, between the old
     and new designs as far as the signal path is concerned. They even
     used tapped pots of the type that were used in the original model.
     I see that the design of the pre-amp in the Vibroverb is what makes
     it so unique, compared to most other Fender designs, and the fact
     that it was a transitional model, so not many were made. The power
     stage is almost identical to all the other 40W models made since the
     presence control was eliminated and bright switches added. The
     footswith jack is now a �" stereo phono type, a real plus IMO.
     	The power supply is a bit different. It has been updated to a
     full-wave -bridge- rectifier. The power switch is a DPST which breaks
     both sides AC to the power transformer primary, there are two internal
     fuses, an NTC thermistor, and a 3-prong power cord, all probably
     required under current UL code.
     	I wanna try one of these out.

     Neal
     	     

    Former noter, Jerry White just purchased a new Fender reissue '65
    blackfaced Twin.  Here's his initial review of the thing, for all you
    amp hounds.  He can still receive mail from us, but does not have Notes
    access.
           
    Greg
    
    
From:	AMPAKZ::RAVEN1::JERRYWHITE "Toto, we're not at DEC anymore ...  05-Nov-1992 2317"  5-NOV-1992 21:13:53.04
To:	PAT,GREG,COOP,STEVED,ALAN,JIM
CC:	JERRYWHITE
Subj:	The review ...

Unboxed the beast at roughly 15:10 ....

Workmanship is great - simple, but great.  When I fired the amp up, I had 
the volume set on '3' just for starts.  Well, once the toobs got warm I 
soon found out that '3' will probably be louder than I'll ever use it, 
unless I do an outdoor gig.  VERY� loud !  

Let's talk *tone* shall we ?  One thing I always loved about Pat's M1 combo 
was the amount of air it moved.  Clean chords would beat you to death.  This 
amp takes that to new levels.  Very natural sustain, very active tone 
controls, tolerable reverb.  My Laney has spoiled me there.  I tried the 
vibrato, it works, that'll probably be the last time I use it.  The bright 
switch supposedly has less effect at higher volumes - I hope so, because at 
'3' there was quite a difference.  I like my tone a tad bright, since my 
hearing is shot, but the normal setting proved to be all I need, with 
plenty to spare.

I ran it up to 6 and played a few chords/lead passages.  It didn't even 
begin to break up, but it did have more 'color' up high.  It was still 
clean, just a tad warmer I guess.  I still can't get over the amount of air 
this thing pushes.

Just before I powered it off, I noticed that the volume on my strat wasn't 
all the way up.  I eased it up from 6 to 10, and got yet another woody.  

I didn't try it with any pedals, but I probably will over the weekend.  
I'll also be ordering some casters.  8^)

I feel I've made a great investment ...

    Why would Fender reissue a '65 Twin??   That was post-CBS.
    
    /Steve

    As I understand it the CBS deal took place in 1965. According to the
    Tube Amp book, some employees then started to tinker with the twin
    to make it more "stable", but it resulted in being a poorer amp. These
    were the first silver faced fender amps. This period lasted about eight
    months before they reverted to the previous design. So not all sliver
    faced twins are NFG.
    
    Anyway I assume the 65 re-issue is that last blackface twin incarnation
    before CBS started to tinker.

    Besides it's really no big deal to convert a Pre Cbs Fender to a Post
    CBS vintage amp. The bigest thing they mucked with is the bias circuit
    from what I've seen in the Super's.... Even the silver face Supers are
    going for $500+. Blackface's are in the $700 to $800 range depending on
    condition and demand. I wonder what the reissues are gonna cost?
    
    
    							Rick
    

    re .-1
    
    I've seen the Reissue Twins for sale new in the 700-750 range.

    CBS basically didn't touch the amps till sometime in 1968 (they were
    too busy screwing up the guitars :-).  "Blackface" amps were made until
    1967; the ones made from 1965-1967 are pretty much identical
    cosmetically and electrically to the pre-CBS ones.  Only the most
    anal-retentive of amp snobs would turn their nose at a post-CBS
    blackface.  Silverface amps are the ones with the CBS mods, although
    even here a few of the very early ones still have the old circuits.
    
    Btw, there is one quick check.  On pre-CBS amps, you'll see the words
    "Fender Electric Instrument Co" on the black control panel; CBS changed
    this to "Fender Musical Instrument Co".  Even that's no guarantee
    however, since CBS used up current inventory of parts when they took
    over.  Thus there are plenty of '65 Blackfaces which still say "Fender
    Electric".
    
    /rick

    Who needs a blackface amp when the real holy grail is one of those
    solid-state amps they started making around 68-69.  I want that Bassman
    head with the selector switch that says "rock-country-jazz". Not only
    ugly but they could out-smoke a Marshall Major and have all the tone
    quality of a vintage Univox. Be the first on your block.
    
    						Brian

    What I meant to say in my previous note was changing a Post CBS to 
    Pre CBS is no big deal......
    
    							Rick
    
    

    For the record, CBS bought Fender in Jan '65. And like was previously
    stated, the changed didn't effect the amp line for several years. And
    like was previously stated, even then it's a cinch to put most amps that
    they mucked around with back to "blackface" condition. I believe that
    Fender cranked outy Deluxe Reverbs for years that -- except for the
    silver panel -- were identical to the original blackface Deluxe Reverbs.

    --Ron

>>    Fender cranked outy Deluxe Reverbs for years that -- except for the
>>    silver panel -- were identical to the original blackface Deluxe Reverbs.
    
    	Yep, and they are a bargain compared to the blackfaced ones.  
    
    Jim (who loves his silverface '68 Deluxe reverb)

.157 
>    I've seen the Reissue Twins for sale new in the 700-750 range.

    Just thought I'd mention that I saw a "like new" userd '65 reissue Twin
    Rev in the EUWurli Framingham store for $650.

    I recently picked up a late '60s silver face Twin Rev for $375 in very
    good condition. I think it was made in '69 (no tube chart, no date to be
    found on the chassis.) After a few hours cleaning and buffing it looks
    *really* good, better than I'd hoped (Armore All works great on Tolex.) 
    I had an early silver face back in the '70s. I didn't care much for what
    I got out of it. Anyway, when I tried this one in the store I liked it's
    sound -- much fatter sounding than what I remember my previous one as
    being. Even so, I had intended to put it back to the AB763 spec like the
    blackface ones. But after getting it home and playing though it, I like
    it so much I'll probably leave it be.

    --Ron

    I hear that the Super Reverb reissues have hit the market??
    
    Anyone know of any sightings in the metro-west area that I could
    check out.  Also, any idea on the price?
    
    I wasn't currently looking for an amp, but if they've done a decent
    job on this one, I'm afraid I'll have to buy one.
    
    /Steve

    I'm waiting to check out a Fender Deluxe Reverb reissue. Has anyone
    seen one of these yet, other than magazine ads ?
    
    Anyone have any idea Fender is gonna list these at?
    
    Mark
    

    RE: .165
    
    Mark,
       Haven't heard the Deluxe Reverb yet, BUT was disappointed to
    hear that the Super Reverb reissue *isn't* a "real" reissue
    at all. With channel switching and other gain increasing circuits...
    I was dissappointed. I guess I assumed that Fender would have
    reissued a realistic Super like they did with the sixties Twin and
    Vibrolux reissues. Fender has had a problem with reissues with their 
    guitars for years ('59 reissue Strat using that 90's wide fretboard...  
    indeed), so why should I expect Fender to be different with their amps. 
    The Vibrolux and Twin reissues had me chomping at the bit for their Super
    reissue...  not anymore. I have a friend who called me because he found
    me a semi-mint (all original) '66 Super Reverb! How much? $750.00!!!!   
    NOT! All I could think of was, what about reliability? My luck, it
    would smoke a transformer on the first gig. (Fender had problems with
    transformers back then).
    
    
    	Disgusted with Fender reissues,
    
    					Smokey LaBeef
    

re: -.1, -.2

>    ACK!  Channel switching... gain boost...???  How dare they call it 
>    a reissue....  that's gross...

You're right - it's hardly a reissue.  However, it might be an 
improvement.  Why not give it a listen?

Geoff (proud owner of a mint '64 that I've sunk a bundle into keeping
       in top shape and still front end with a preamp so I don't need
       to run it a 6+ in my basement).

Just MHO.  :')

    re: Fred and Steve
    
    Like .168 said.  Are you looking for a museum piece or a certain sound? 
    It's clear these amps are not really reissues, so Fender shouldn't call
    them that, but I thought the idea behind them was that you could get
    the original sound out of them plus some other sounds.  And do it a lot
    easier with channel switching.  If I were in the market for a "genuine
    pre-CBS blackface" amp, I'd be looking for the sound that amp gets, and
    not care if it looks like the original or is even made by Fender.  I
    admit there's some appeal to having the "genuine article", but getting
    the sound would be the most important thing for me.
    
    Dave

    well, the problem traditionally with re-issues is that it's exactly
    these little improvements that end up screwing the original sound,
    which is what you really wanted in the first place.  There's no
    shortage of similar amps with channel switching and gain boost etc.
    out there, and yet players still risk electrocution and unreliability
    to get some of what those old Supers deliver.
    
    So if they did make an amp that truly has the original sound plus
    some other sounds, okay.  Let's just say history has made us skeptical.
    
    /rick

    I didn't think that Fender's new "Super Amp" was supposed to be a Super
    Reverb reissue, just a new amp that looks like one.
    
    Danny W.

    I agree with Danny, I understood that it was like The Twin -- not a
    reissue but borrowing on the Super name. I didn't expect an actual
    reissue from them, although it would have been really cool.

    I believe the only amps they are calling reissues are the tweed
    bassman and the vibroverb. They are coming out with a set of tweed
    amps but they all have modern features and different names. They
    also have a tolex "Super" and a "Concert" but they are not re-issues
    and have more modern features as well. They seem to be hitting two
    different consumers. The folks that want real re-issues, and the
    folks that want vintage tube amp looks and sound with some modern
    features that you don't find on vintage amps

    The '65 Twin Reverb (not "The Twin") is an actual reissue. The
    upandcoming Deluxe Reverb is too, I think.

    If you look in the Fender Frontline hypefest, the amp lines are broken
    into:
    
    Custom Shop: Tone Master, Vibro King
    
    Vintage: Bassman, Vibroverb, 65 Twin, Deluxe Reverb
    
    Tweed: Bronco, Pro Jr., Blues Deluxe, Blues DeVille
    
    Pro Tube: "The" Twin, Dual Showman, Concert, Super (notice it is *not*
    Super *Reverb*)
    
    All others: various solid state garbage  8^) 8^)
    
    They are *not* claiming the Tweeds, Concert and Super are reissues. 
    The obvious market is people who want vintage like sound with some
    modern enhancements.  Other than the absent reverb and tremelo cicuits,
    I bet Fender figured that a Super Reverb reish would be too close to
    the Bassman to be able to sell well.  Lotsa former Super users
    (especially harp men) have gone over to the Bassman already.
    
    							Brian

    Interesting historical note: the original blackface Super Reverb was
    actually marketed by Fender as a re-issue of the tweed Bassman, even
    though it really wasn't a true re-issue.
    
    I kind of wonder how a true Super Reverb re-issue would have sold.  You
    may be right in saying that market is already saturated by re-issue
    Bassmen, but when the first rumors of a Super Reverb re-issue were
    floating around (and after the Bassmen and Vibroverbs were already out)
    I still heard a lot of interest on the street.  And I now hear a lot
    of moaning about the added bells and whistles.
    
    /rick

    re .175
    
    Does this mean they are making a concert?  I called Fender to try and get
    a foot switch for one and was told they didn't make them anymore.
    
    Thanks,
    
    RJ (confused)

    I'm taking delivery on a Fender Deluxe reverb re-issue tonight.
    Stay tuned to this station for review next week.
    
    jim

  I know for shure that the '59 Bassman reissue is "reissue". The only 
difference is that they are using a circuit board with the option for
fuses used for European export. The circuit is nearly identical except 
for a deliberately left-out cap on the preamp circuit.


/J

    I went to the Michigan guitar show on saturday (a twice-a-year guitar
    show held in Detroit).  One vendor had the new Deluxe Reverb re-issues
    in stock.  I did not get to play through it, but it sure **looked**
    good.  Tube configuration seems to be the same as the original, 
    including (it appeared) the tube rectifier.  
    
    At ~$900 list, the price seems a bit steep.  I'll stick with my '68
    silver-face...
    
    Jim

    Re.  .179  Jim, what's the scoop on the new Deluxe Reverb reissue?
    Enquiring minds want to know. You've been silent in here since you 
    entered the last note. How about a review?
    
    Is the list price on the Deluxe really $900? That's an incredible
    amount of money for a little 22watt 1x12 combo!
    
    Mark
    
    

    Jim's probably so blissed out in tone nirvana he can't be bothered with
    notes right now :-)

     Re - .179  Nov.5

>    I'm taking delivery on a Fender Deluxe reverb re-issue tonight.
>    Stay tuned to this station for review next week.
    
     Hey Jim,

     You gonna give us a review of the amp? And did you get a schematic
     with it?

     Inquiring-mind
     Neal

    ........Ok! Ok! I'll switch the Deluxe reverb onto standby and work
    on a review.  Boy, peer pressure is a terrible thing!  :+)
    
    Stay tuned

Ok, due to popular demand, heres the scoop on the Fender Deluxe reverb re-issue.

Overall, I'm impressed with this little 22 watt tube amp. Fender has done
a very nice job of recreating the black face Deluxe Reverb of yester-year. 
Unlike the vibroverb re-issue, this one has a tube rectifier. 
Noticable differences are limited to use of printed circuit boards, 
and three prong power plug. The amp contains a 12" Jensen speaker. 

The amp comes with a schematic which can be read without the aid of a
microscope. I haven't had a chance to compare the schematic to the original.
The amp offers two channels, a "normal" channel, and a channel offering
reverb & vibrato. Reverb and vibrato are footswitch activated. Unlike the
princeton reverb, the vibrato *requires* the pedal for activation. Each
channel has both a treble and bass eq tone control.

Well, you won't need a tube screamer with this amp. It is quite easily 
overdriven. I first test drove it with both a tele and a strat with single
coils. It starts to really sing with the volume at 5. Frequency response
of the Jensen is pretty good from highs to lows. The tone controls give
a pretty good range of tones. It gets a really rich violin-like tone in 
the midrange. It really turned my tele into a beast. Wow!

A Gibson on the otherhand almost overpowers this amp. I tried a LP classic
premium plus with a hot set of pickups. Each channel has two input jacks.
There is a 6db gain difference between the two jacks and the LP is best
plugged in jack #2. The LP will overdrive the amp even quicker. Crank it
back and you get a real nice clean tone. Fender reverb is quite good as well.

The amp is rated a 22 watts, and it is pretty loud. I can play this baby
in the basement and get my spouse to start screaming at me up on the second
floor. In general, I'd say the tone is a bit brighter than a vibro-verb, more
like a twin but
much easier to overdrive. Overall its a great little amp. It might be
too small to gig with unless you mike it. But for home use it's (as Wes,
the guy who sold it to me, would say:) killer!  It's not a cheap amp,
especially when compared to the prices on some of the new design tweed tube
amps which fender is introducing. But it screams, and in my opinion was
worth the bucks ($540 including tax, title & license). I had been shopping
around for a vintage blackface and found the prices pretty extreme ($700-900).

jim  a_happy_camper

    Mmmm, sounds nice.  Your description sounds exactly like some of the
    nicer original Deluxes I've tried.  How's the tremelo?  Is there any
    noticable difference between the Deluxe and the Vibroverb in this area?
    
    /rick
    
    btw, despite the small size and modest watts, I've seen plenty of
    people gig with these.  I knew a band where both guitarists and
    the keyboard player(!) each had one.

    re .186
    
>>The amp is rated a 22 watts, and it is pretty loud. I can play this baby
>>in the basement and get my spouse to start screaming at me up on the second
>>floor. In general, I'd say the tone is a bit brighter than a vibro-verb, more
    
    I suggest that we use this as a benchmark when rating amps :-)

    
    I gigged with mine for a few years. If it doesn't have quite enough
    power, you can always drop in a more efficient speaker. That'll always
    give your SPL a boost. Last time I used mine out was a few years ago
    when I sat in for a night with a really top notch country band. The
    other lead player had one too. It was dual Teles and dual Deluxes all
    night long. The amps were just right for the room when it got crowded.
    Lot's a fun. (oh yeah, you hafta put it up on a chair)

    --Ron

    Like .189 sez...
    
    I just got out of a band where the guy had two old Deluxes.  On many
    gigs, he brought just one, on larger gigs, he stacked up both of them.
    
    About the only time he used anything larger (he also has a Pro and a
    Twin) was outdoors.
    
    							Brian

    OOOOO yeah, I used to daydream about having two to stack up. I also
    wondered what kinda sound FOUR would make in a big room.

    As long as we're on the subject, an interesting feature of the Deluxe
    Rev was the fact that the "Vibrato" channel has a bright cap hard wired
    across the volume pot, the same way other Fenders have a bright switch
    that you use to switch the cap in/out of the circuit. Unlike the other
    Fenders, it's not as large 47pf vs. 120pf I think, so it's not quite as
    bright as the other amps with the bright switch switched in. But the
    "Normal" channel has no brightness cap.

    So, to sum up, Deluxe Reverb, brightness cap wy-ord in, vibrato channel,
    Normal channel, no cap.

    Thank you and God bless America.

    rjb

    re: 191
    
    I took a quick look at the schematic and it appears that both the
    normal and vib channel on the Deluxe reverb reissue have this 47pf
    cap.

    
    Jim, thanks for the review. This little amp sounds like it would
    be right up my alley.
    
    By the way gents (let's have one more drum roll) I just sold my
    Fender "The Twin" amp last night. That's right folks, after 5 years
    of loyal service, the Twin is gone. I'm planning to take my time
    shopping for a new amp. The Deluxe reverb is on the top of my list
    of amps I want to check out. 
    
        Mark (who just lost 100 pounds). 
    

    Well, I just had the first glitch with the Deluxe reverb. After
    playing it for about an hour, it went dead silent. Then it kinda
    came back but with almost 0 gain. I went to the trouble of replacing
    all the tubes to no avail. After scratching my head, I starting
    wiggling things and discovered the culprit was apparently the
    speaker jack. If I pressed on it, everything came back to life.
    Unfortunately it does not appear to make good enough contact to be
    reliable. I examined the male plug. Its the standard sort of plug
    with a molded right angle rubber base. It looks kinda cheesy and
    certainly not Mil-spec. Its not clear to me yet if its the plug or
    the jack that is the offender. I'll have to play with it some more
    tonight. I hope fender didn't cut corners on some of the hardware
    quality.
    
    jim

    
    I would check the female plug - usually you can reach behind the panel
    and bend the spring for a better contact...
    
    Poul
    

  - If it is definately the speaker-jack-area, then it could be that the jack
itself is faulty, or the solder connection on the circuit board is open.



/J

    None of the dealers in the Central Mass area have the new Deluxe
    Reverbs in stock yet. Wurlitzers claims they have some on order.
    They will be asking $699 when they do come in !?!? Jim, did you
    buy your's locally, or through a mail-order dealer?
    
    Mark

    I bought it here in Atlanta, from a music store related to Rhythm City.
    I'm a pretty good customer there, and I find the prices Wes usually
    gives me are tough to beat anywhere else.
    
    A trouble shooting update: I tried plugging a speaker from an old
    princeton reverb into the deluxe and it worked fine. I compared the
    two plugs and the shape of the tip was every so slightly different.
    The dealer where I bought it gave me a new plug, and it also 
    mis-behaved. So I finally broke down and pulled the chassis out and
    bent the contact a bit and now all is nirvana.
    
    While I had the chassis out, I peeked around a bit. The layout and
    wiring appeared pretty clean. Most components are mounted on one
    of several circuit boards. A minimum of solder connections are used,
    mostly to the tube sockets. Most connections use blade connectors.
    Appeared to be neat and well done.

    Well, last night I got to try out a '65 Deluxe Reverb reissue. Of
    all places, Kurlan's Music in Worcester has one. I played a Strat+
    through it. BTW, the speaker in the Deluxe reverb at Kurlan's is  
    made by "Emminence". The amp sounds great at any volume and it is 
    surprisingly loud for 22 watts. It starts to sing really nice around 
    5-6 on the volume dial. It was love at first crank! Kurlan's quoted 
    me $699 + tax ($735 total). I would have bought it right then and 
    there, but I knew I could save a substantial amount by going mail 
    order, and Kurlan's would not budge on their price. I waved a fist
    full of hundred dollar bills right under their nose and they didn't 
    even flich!
     
    I ended up ordering one from the same place that Jim bought his in 
    Atlanta, Ga. Thanks Jim!! The price is $535 including shipping. Can't 
    beat that with a stick! I sure hope the UPS man hit's my house before 
    Christmas. 
     
    Mark (soon to be in tone-Nirvana).

    BTW, Neal Orsi gave me a copy of the schematic for the reissue and it
    does have a 47pf cap on the Vibrato channel volume pot (for brightness)
    but not on the Normal. This is consistent with the original design.

    --Ron

>    Mark (soon to be in tone-Nirvana).
    
    I thought Kurt Cobain used some sort of Mesa/Boogie thing...

    
    Mark,
    
    Tell me why you think this new amp of yours is better than 'The Twin'?
    (You sold it right?)
    Maybe it was too heavy..
    
    Poul
    

    Why did I sell the Twin? that's a good question. 
    
    The main reason I sold it is because I grew tired of the distortion. 
    The Twin has a high-gain distortion channel. It creates the distortion 
    by using an additional gain stage in the preamp (ie: extra 12AX7's). 
    I have found that the sound I have really been after is the sound of a 
    tube amp cranked. That means the power tubes are really doing the work
    as appossed to the preamp. I also like a certain amount of compression 
    in my guitar tone, but rather than use some transistor-based compressor/
    limiter that can eat up all your tone, a cranked tube amp provides natural 
    compression, especially amps with tube rectifiers like the Deluxe has. 
    
    With this thinking in mind, I've been tempted to put my Mesa Boogie
    preamp on the auction block as well. This is a serious proposition as I 
    have built an entire rack system around this preamp. I doubt I'll do
    anything rash. It's nice to have the virsatility when you need it.
     
    In short a Twin has way too much power to open it up in a small space
    to the point of actually getting power tube distortion/compression
    happening. They are great for doing clubwork, or other large venues, 
    but for anything else they are overpowered. The Twin had a 25 watt
    setting, but to be honest, I never noticed much differance between
    the two settings. The amp could still kill small animals even in the
    25 watt mode. In the last 5 years, I have played out very seldom. I
    do most of my playing at home or in a studio. The Twin is just too
    much amp for my type of playing. Last summer I bought a Champ amp.
    It is 4 watts with an 8" speaker. The Twin has been collecting dust
    since I bought the Champ. The Champ sounds great but is too small
    to use with a band. I tried playing through a couple of Vibralux
    and Vibraverb amps, and I found that even 40 watts is too much, and
    I didn't like the 2x10 complement of speakers as much as 1x12. 
     
    I have a few other reasons for switching amps...I wanted a more vintage 
    style amp. "The Twin" is really a modern unit, especially the one I had
    with the snakeskin covering. I also wanted something simpler. I never
    used 1/2 the features on The Twin. I could get some cool tones with it,
    but getting them repeatably was not always simple. 
     
    I bought my first Twin Reverb in 1978. The main reason that I chose
    a Twin Reverb was because my favorite player at the time (Gerry Garcia)
    used Twins. Gerry gets a great sound with his Twin, but he generally
    plays to packed collosiums and needs the power. I'll always respect
    the classic Twin Reverb, but I doubt I'll ever own another (unless 
    of course, I stumble across one at a Flea market).
    
    Mark

    Stumbling upoon Petty's "Last Dance with Mary Jane" video I noticed a
    silver face Deluxe Reverb sitting on top of his VOX gear.

    The great thing about Deluxes is that they have a big sound, unlike
    most smaller amps. They really aren't a small amp.

    I'm gonna go on record here as saying (read: admitting) that Fender
    Twin reverbs are quite heavy, and can be a pain to move. There
    certainly not the kind of amp you want to grab to run to a jam.
    I'll also admit that it factored into the decision to sell the
    Twin and buy a smaller, lighter amp. 
    
    But, I've played with people that owned Electric Pianos, Organs, 
    Bass Cabs the size of refrigerators, PA, Lighting, heavey trap
    cases, etc, and in the grand scheme of things, a Twin Reverb or 
    two is really no big deal to haul around with a gigging band. 
     
    There was a time when I owned "The Twin" and a silver-faced
    Twin Reverb w/JBL's. I have been known to haul both and run em
    in stereo with a MidiverbII. It worked great. I played through
    "The Twin", placed the midiverbII in the efx loop, and fed the
    silverface with one of the returns from the midiverb. Sounded
    HUGE. Obviously, this required some effort to move.
    I'm way too lazy to go through this much effort today. 
    

    The deluxe reverb reissue sounds like a great little amp. I haven't
    heard any reviews yet that were negative in any way.
    
    I still can't understand why Fender choose '1965' as the year to
    reissue. I'm aware that it was the twin that CBS promptly set about
    to ruin after taking control, and the smaller amps survived longer
    in their pre-cbs form;  but not everyone knows that,  and it would
    just seem to make more sense from a marketing perspective to avoid
    any and all stigmas associated with the post-cbs era.  That could
    easily have been done by calling it a '1964' reissue.
    
    Any ideas why Fender chose '65 for both the deluxe and the twin?
    Anyone know what the real differences between the two model years
    were, if any?
    
    Inquiring minds want to know.
    
    /Steve

    An unofficial rule of thumb I've heard re blackface amps is the later
    the better; a '65-'67 is generally (but not always) supposed to be a
    better player than a '63 or '64.  (on the other hand, collectors prefer
    the earlier models because of the CBS thing).  So perhaps the choice of
    '65 is an intentional nod to this.  And/or the amp really is based on a
    particular version of the circuit that was done in '65.
    
    /rick

    My guess is that Fender picked 1965 most likely because it's the most
    popular with vintage amp buyers. The reissues are an attempt to cash in
    on the demand for these old amps. Not that there's anything wrong with
    that. They are a business after all and they're responding to a
    marketplace demand.

    But what's so great about the 1965 amps you ask? Well although the sale
    to CBS went through in January 1965, there were no ill effects from it
    until much later. Changes in management and subsequent effects on
    product quality happened over the next few years. Therefore, products
    made during '65 are generally considered to be on a par with pre-CBS.
    The only immediate change that I'm aware of is the shape of the guitar
    headstock, and that's something that Leo probably had in the works
    before the sale. For instance, there's nothing at all bad that I know of
    about 1966 goods. Also by 1965, the revisions to the amp line were
    mostly done, with the one exception being the Bassman. Generally
    speaking, the amps weren't badly mucked with until around '69/'70 when
    some nasty stuff was put in the backend of most of the amp designs. I
    think these changes were done for circuit stability. Since these changes
    involved adding components, it certainly wasn't a cost cutting move.

    After 1970 things got weirder. I think that they lost their sense of
    vision and stopped listening to their customers (musicians) for advice.
    They were making changes to their product line for the wrong reasons --
    gimmicks. And it became a bottom line operation. (BTW, Fender's awful
    late '60s solid state amps were Leo's vision but since he knew nothing
    of semiconductors, he disassociated himself from amp design.) Silver
    panel amps really suffer from the CBS stigma because they were only
    produced during the CBS years and got worse as time went on. So vintage
    gear buyers look at a Silver face amp and must wonder if it's good or
    bad but when they look at a blackface Fender, it's a safe bet that it's
    good.

    --Ron

    	Santa Claus arrived at my house early this year, and was
    driving a UPS truck. He delivered my new Fender '65 Deluxe
    Reverb reissue amp.

	What can I say, the amp looks beautiful and sounds perfect.
    It has just the right amount of compression and sounds really
    sweet. For a 22 watt amp this thing has got guts. I jammed 
    with a friend and the Deluxe reverb was plenty loud enough to
    be heard. 

	There is a noticable differance between channel 1 and 2.
    Channel two is definately brighter and seems to have more gain
    The amp stays clean until about 4.5 and then it starts to get a 
    little dirty. It gets a raspy tone that is ideal for playing
    slide. My (Amer. Std) Strat sounds killer through this amp. This
    is the best Strat tone I've ever been able to get with any amp.

	See note 2838 for other GTS news ;^)

    	Mark	

	Over the weekend, I traded my Fender Champ for a (non-reverb)
    Princeton amp. Like the Champ, the Princeton is a silver-face amp.
    The main reason I made the trade is because the Princeton plays
    considerably louder than the Champ. Unlike the Champ, the Princeton 
    does not distort very much, even when the volume is cranked to 10. 
    This may be due to the (non-original) Celestrian 50w speaker. 

	Although the amp doesn't distort, it has really great tone. 
    With the volume cranked it compresses considerably and takes on a
    nice cello tone, something the Champ did not do well. I think 
    Princeton's with reverb probably distort more due to the extra
    tube stage. Eventually, I hope to upgrade to a Black-face Princeton
    *Reverb* but for now this little amp is just the ticket.

	Between the Deluxe Reverb and this Princeton, I believe I 
    have found my niche. No more big powerful amps for this old guy.
    By switching to smaller less powerful amps, I'm not only getting
    great tone, I believe I'm also saving my hearing so I can continue 
    to enjoy music into my old age.

	Mark (Fender Bigot)

    Mark,

    In case you're wondering why, the Princeton has a simplified phase
    inverter circuit (1/2 of a 12AX7 as opposed to a whole 12AT7) which is
    less robust than the circuit used in the Deluxe or other Fenders. I
    think it's considerably less gain and doesn't drive the output pair as
    hard.

    --Ron

    Is the same true of the Princeton Reverb? I was under the impression
    that Princeton Reverbs distorted quite nicely when cranked, but I
    haven't heard one.
    
    Mark

    Well actually, Mark, I was looking at a Princeton Reverb schematic when
    I wrote that. I think the output stage (driver and power tubes) is the
    same for both Princeton and Princeton Reverb. In Fender amps that come
    in non-reverb versions, the only difference that I'm aware of is the
    reverb circuit and the triod (1/2 12AX7) that mixes the wet and dry
    signal together inthe Vibrato channel.

    --Ron
    

    The clips that I saw on TV of the Stones in DC last night showed Keith
    standing in front of what looked like three tweed Twins, each atop a
    4x12 Mesa-Boogie spkr cab. They might have been the new 2x12 version of
    the Blues DeVille (they had a 2x12 shape) but I think they looked old
    with varying grill cloth colors. Anyway, it was enough to give you a
    woody.

    Keith had 3 2x12 amps atop 3 4x12 mesa cabs.  two of the amps were
    the same, one was slightly different.
    
    As for Ron Wood, he had one of those Fender 2x12 amps, a VOX AC-30,
    and two mesa heads (stacked), each atop 3 mesa 4x12 cabs.

	This past weekend, I bought a 1966/67 Fender Vibro-Champ amp.
    This is a blackface amp and it is in perfect condition. It is by
    far, the cleanest black-face amplifier I have ever come across.

	This amp has 4 tubes, 2 12AX7s/1 6V6/1 5Y3 tube rectifier. It 
    also has an 8" Jensen speaker. The tube chart lists the circuit
    type as an AA764. The front panel has 5 knobs (volume, treble, bass, 
    speed, and intensity). I opened it up and checked out the inside. 
    It appears to be completely stock. All pots bear a date code from 
    1966. There is a number stamped on the chassis which ends in 67, so
    I am assuming it was made in 1967. It must be one of the very last
    blackface amps made by Fender before they switched to silver control
    panels. 

	The amp has a slight electrical glitch which should be easy to
    fix. With all preamp knobs on 10, the volume seems to pulse as if the
    vibrato is stuck on. If you turn the treble and bass knobs down to 5
    the amp will stop pulsing, but sounds pretty compressed. I tried
    swapping a new 6V6 and new preamp tubes from another amp. This seemed
    to improve the overall sound of the amp, but the pulsing still occurs
    when you crank it. The amp has a plug for a vibrato foot switch, but 
    no pedal was supplied with it. Does anyone know where I can find a vib
    foot switch for this. The plug is an RCA phono type.

	Despite the slight problem, the amp sounds real sweet, especially
    with the volume at 8, treble and bass on 5. It looks really cute next
    to my Deluxe Reverb re-issue. Like guitars, you just can't have enough
    amplifiers!
	
    	Mark 

    with all the preamp knobs on 10!!!!!!
    
    Maybe the pulsing is the blood gushing out of your ears 8^).
    
    P.K.

    Mark,
    	If you don't find a footswitch soon, but want to play the amp
    anyway, get an RCA plug, short the two leads ( + with - ), plug it
    into the FS input and the tremolo will shut off. Alot of the older 
    Fenders will not turn the trem off completely unless the footswitch 
    input is shorted.
    
    Have fun!
    
    	Fred

    Maybe the B+ power supply is fluctuating from the vibrato oscillator.

    I hate when that happens!
    

Then again, maybe not.

>    with all the preamp knobs on 10!!!!!!
>    
>    Maybe the pulsing is the blood gushing out of your ears 8^).
    
    C'mon dude, it's a VibroChamp, not a Twin!  With one 6V6 power tube,
    the thing's making MAYBE 5-10 watts of output power.  It's got one
    dinky little speaker (about an 8"?), you're not gonna hurt anyone too
    bad by crankin it...
    
    Greg

    Yo Mark!
    	Do the RCA plug trick and I betcha it'll fix your tremolo problem!
    Nothing fancy, just some leakage in the ckt design and it needs a dead
    short to shut the tremolo ckt completely down. All my old Fenders did
    the same thing.
    
    I thought all older Fender did this or am I just the only guy who's old
    enough to remember this? Gawd, I feel old....     ;^)
    
    
    
    
    
    
    			NOT!
    
    
    
    		:^)    -    Fred

    Fred, Thanks for the bit of advise. I tried shorting the vib pedal fs.
    The amp still pulses when you crank it. It seems as if the power
    supply is sagging. A friend of mine has a repair setup with a scope.
    He's got the amp right now and should have it fixed for me in a few
    days. I plan to replace all of the tubes, except maybe the rectifier.
    
    Mark

>    Nothing fancy, just some leakage in the ckt design and it needs a dead
>    short to shut the tremolo ckt completely down. All my old Fenders did

     Actually, it's the reverse...it needs a short to ground at the RCA jack
     to turn the tremolo on. If it's pulsing with the trem off, there's
     something else happening, probably related to filter caps. It sounds
     like they cannot stay fully charged under heavy load, ie..cranked.
     The amp has a 3-element cap (40uf-20uf-20uf can) and maybe one element
     hss become more of a resistor than a cap with age and the others are
     discharging through it....or maybe it's just haunted. 8^)

     Hope this helps
     Neal-taking-the-Quantum-leap-10/3

    I was comparing a Fender reissue Vibroverb to a reissue Twin Reverb and
    noticed that compared to the Vibro, the Twin sounded thin at first,
    while the Vibro sounded full and warm. After playing them both for
    awhile, I realized that the Twin is right; the Vibroverb has a peak in
    the upper bass response that can't be removed by adjusting the tone
    controls. This probably works really well with a Strat, but with my
    Gibson Lucille, I found it to be too warm, and I'd expect it to be even
    worse with an archtop. 
    
    I have a feeling that this could be undone in five minutes with a
    screwdriver and soldering iron, but I'm not sure I'd want to go through
    the trouble. I think that many players find this tone shaping
    attractive;  I guess I prefer a flatter response.
    
    While looking at the Twin, my wife said "Didn't you have one of those
    when we got married?"  Yes kiddies, in 1968 I sold a blackface '64 Twin
    Reverb, arguably one of the best amps ever made, to buy a silverface
    1968 Bandmaster, arguably one of the worst. At the time it had yet to
    occur to me that  buying a newer product could be a step in the wrong
    direction, but I've learned a lot since then. If I had kept that Twin,
    I would have saved sixteen years of searching for an amp I could live
    with.
    
    Danny W.
    

    I played a 175 thru a Dual Professional last night.
    
    Major drool!!