Conference napalm::guitar

                                                                    
    	I find it amazing to watch technology accelerate through time!
    
    Let me guess, the "hot" way of determining where a string is fretted
    is to send a little ultrasonic beam down the string line, letting
    it reflect off the discontinuity at the fretted position and
    determining the position by measuring the time delay down and back
    like a Radar set!
    
    	(I also find it amazing that there's enough market to drive someone
    to bother to do all that - just to make a MIDI guitar. There sure
    are a lot of offerings!)
         
    	I'll bet making a MIDI "sax" is easier! Just hook the buttons
    up...Ah, but how do you get 3 - 4 different notes out of just one
    fingering? Air velocity / bite pressure sensors, of course!
    
    	(...all in the never ending quest to be able to buy yourself
    difference_from_everyone_else. I think, as t -> on, the market will
    actually be buying themselves into uniformity: "oh, that's a synth"
    "what controlled it?" Who cares...)
    
    	Is this all really for the sake of "expanded imagination"? Or is
    imagination really stifled, because everything must be picked from
    what is given in that particular ROM revision? "I cant consider it;
    I dont have V3.2 yet"...
    
    	Technology accelerated through time. Where's that cigar box?
    
    	Joe Jas

    I had a chance to play with my cousins Roland GR series synth
    (not sure of the model number, but it is the latest one). He
    also has a Roland D50 keyboard, and runs the GR into it. The
    sounds are incredible, but the tracking was pretty slow. He
    was tempted to sell it shortly after he bought it due to the
    tracking, but has heard of a new pickup due out that promises
    to improve on that. He has the midi pickup mounted on a Gibson
    Howard Roberts Fusion guitar. To avoid attaching the pickup
    directly to the guitar top, he glued it to the bridge pickup
    surround. Only problem is the control box still needs to be
    attached to the guitar top behind the bridge. He's keeping his
    fingers crossed that if he ever decides to remove it, it won't
    mar up the finish. I wonder if you could mount the control box
    to a trapese style tailpiece to avoid this problem. My ES345
    has a trapese, and who knows, some day I may take the plunge
    myself. Considering the price of the GR pickup/controller
    (around $1000), your probably better off to leave your existing
    axe alone, and buy a Casio, or other complete guitar/midi 
    controller. Anyone considering getting into Midi guitar, keep
    in mind that the pickup/controller is only 1/2 the gear needed.
    You also need a sound source, like a Keyboard synth, or rackmount
    unit with all the sound generators. His D50 has some really intense
    sounds. One of the sounds reminds me of the Pat Metheny sound.
    There is a great organ sound, and many others too numerous to
    mention here. I found the guitar synth works best with patches
    that can be played slow and melodically like playing chords
    with a Hammond B3 type sounds. Playing at blazing speeds using
    patches with a sharp attach is where you really notice the tracking
    inadaquacy. I had heard of the tracking problems, but assumed it
    wouldn't be a problem unless you played fast like Van Halen,
    but even an old slow hand like me noticed the tracking delay,
    especially on the lower notes. With existing technology, only
    the wired-fret instruments like a Synth-Axe can get around this
    problem. 
    
    	The technology is definately getting there. I bet that by the
    time I am ready to make my move, it will be perfected.
    
    Mark Jacques
     
     
    

    Mark:
    
    I've used my Gr700 with both solid and semisolid guitars, and can
    tell you that tracking is much better with a solidbody. I'd strongly
    recommend that anyone considering a guitar synth not use anything
    but a solid.
    
    Even so, I'm not very fast either, and I can play one hell of a
    lot faster than any synth I've tried.
    
    Danny W

    Can you explain why the midi pickup tracks better on a solid body
    than a semi ? Just curious. According to my cousin, a Casio
    Synth guitar (the one Stanley Jordan uses that looks like a Strat
    and sells for around $1000) is no better, and in his opinion
    actually tracks worse, than his GR700/Gibson HR fusion.
    
    Mark 

    Mark:
    
    Casio guitars are not what I was talking about--I'm sure any Gibson
    semi would make a better controller. I should have qualified my
    statement with "all things being equal". Not to be crass and
    commercial, but the LP Artist I've been trying to sell tracks immensely
    better than any of the Japanese synth controllers I've tried
                                        
    P to V convertors have an easier time with a signal that has as
    few overtones as possible. A harmonically rich signal confuses it.
    That's why the pickups are mounted close to the bridge.The whole
    idea of a semi is to get more warmth--which means more overtones.
    So, assuming the guitars are *equally well built* and have *equal
    quality wood*, I think a solid will work better.
    
    Danny W.
    
    

    
    	Pickups mounted close to the bridge see a greater harmonic content
    than those mounted up by the fingerboard. In other words, the classic
    "lead" pickup position is the bright one with all the harmonics,
    the "rythm" position is smoother and contains mostly fundamental.
    
    	In fact, I've never been able to understand how these synths could
    even *work at all* with their pickups so close to the bridge!!!
    
    	I'll admit that I've done some experimenting in an attempt to
    build a guitar synth. All my efforts were done for a monophonic system.
    I used the std pickups on the guitar...
    
    	It had the "classic" problemsl; 1st was that there could be only
    one explicit note from the guitar, so "sloppy" playing was out. 2nd
    was that it would lock on the "wrong octave" (octave above) oh,
    33% of the time, so it was never completely predictable. 3rd was
    that in order to make it "work", your playing style had to be modified
    considerably. I learned to pluck strings exactly dead center from
    the fretted position to the bridge; right hand moves with left!!
    In fact, I could control it's "octave hunting" by *where* I picked
    the string - by the bridge; it'd always go for the octave above;
    dead center of string length, usually not. Also, when I had a guitar
    that had switch selectable "Lead" and "Rythm", it always worked
    best in the *Rythm* position. I used a CD4046 Phase Lock Loop, and
    I could - usually with success - sample and hold indefinately any note 
    played on the fretboard. Capture time was fast enough to be able
    to play a melody, but superfast picking would result in garbage,
    if it wasnt *perfectly clean*. It was trully a "garbage in - garbage
    out" system. 
    
    	Although I could also transpose digitally in musical half steps up
    or down, the overall accuracy and sound of this concoction was so lousy
    that I decided it could never be used in a performance situation...
    It had the "phase jitters" when locked onto the signal, which I could 
    never get out, seemingly no matter how much I filtered the signal from
    the guitar. Thus, it always made a very "grating" and unpleasant sound
    during the "sample" period, when the guitarist still had control
    of the note pitch. Sometimes, though, it did this great sounding breakout
    to the octave above, emulating the "singing" sustain/feedback effect
    perfectly. Right now, I believe that it is my inability to build
    a good, clean "fuzz box" (which drives the PLL) that ultimately thwarted
    it's performance. I'm too proud, (I guess) to just go out and buy a 
    "RAT" or something and butcher it to provide that function. (Yes,
    I just admitted that I "cant" build as good a fuzz box as a "RAT"
    - ^&$*^#_=&!!!) 
    
    	I used a guitar with the pickup halfway betwen the neck and
    bridge -
    
    	Joe Jas

    I would imagine the bridge position is used as the string will
    constantly travel a shorter distance there (and at the nut) making
    for faster conversion....
    
    Maybe?
    
    Edd

    Sorry guys--the neck position is chock full of even harmonics that
    p-v's love to latch onto. The thin-sounding bridge position has
    lots of higher harmonics, but these are of relatively low amplitude,
    easy to filter, and not as confusing to the electronics. Only the
    harmonics within range ofthe 4-octave fundamental frequencies are
    a problem.
    
    .7 is close--the fact that the string doesn't move much doen't speed
    the conversion, but makes a more consistant signal from the pickup,
    since the string stays over the pole piece.
    
    Danny W.

    
    	I'll buy the "string over the pole piece" as sound reasoning
    to put it at the bridge. I dont imagine things would work too well
    if one "bent" a string right out of it's pickup's focus and into
    the neighboring pickup! Yeeeeennnnow -ZONK- #!*$#*!#*! >splatter< 
    
    	Joe Jas

    
    
    
    	I've owned the Casio MG510 for over a year now and am still
    happy I bought it. Extensive midi pickup adjustments were needed
    to optimize tracking but I finally did it and the thing BLOWS any
    Roland system away. Unfortunately, it has been discontinued in favor
    of the Casio PG380, which Casio couldn't give away while the MG
    was on the market. The Pg has internal sounds(vz1 synth), yet no
    way to edit them and believe me, I am not wowed by the VZ1.
      The MG510 can handle my fastest licks and, IMHO , I be fast.
    The only problem is you can not do a very fast whammy or it will
    glitch. And you have to play very cleanly. This thing has done wonders
    for my style. Although I see the Beetle Quantar in my future...
    
    
    					Rich.....(NYC)
    
    
    

    
    A friend of mine is thinking of going MIDI. The MG510 (used) would
    probably be a good option for him. Rich, how much did you pay for
    the MG-510 new, and how much, in your opinion, would be a good price
    for a used one?
    
    Mike D

    Acording to Mike Taylor at Casio, the MG510 isn't being discontinued.
    Also, they're planning on introducing 3 or 4 new models soon. No
    details. The Rolands are funky but their is a huge variation in
    different instruments / how they're set up and the player. After
    having several Roland sys. I've settled on a Steinberger L series
    w/ Roland electronics factory installed and a GM70/D550/MKS70
    combo. The thing tracks better than any p to v system I've played.
    I think the Casio is the best deal for the money. 
    

    
    I'm not sure if the Yamaha G10 fits into this category, but I tried one 
    out the other day and I thought it was horrible.  I found about three
    of the available patches interesting, and the tracking (done, I am
    told, by sonar) was lousy.  It had great sensitivity and would respond
    to the lightest picking strength.  I decided I'll wait ten years or so
    when I can by a Synthaxe for $100. :-)
    
    Guy

    
    	The Casio MG510 listed for $990. I picked it up for $680 at
    Russo Music in N.J.. Used I would sell it for $480.
        But I ain't selling.
    
      				Rich
    

       Well, the Pitchrider I ordered from that Usenet posting arrived
       yesterday.  First off, I should make clear that we're talking
       Kramer Pitchrider 7000, pre-Mark II.  The Usenet message said
       that a factory update to Mark II status was around $100.

       Everything looked factory fresh when I opened the package.  The
       plastic bags were still welded shut.  For $150 bucks you get a
       rack mount box that contains the actual translation logic & MIDI
       interface (MIDI out, only) circuitry.  The box also offers a foot
       switch jack and a line level out.  The foot switch can be
       configured to either enable/disable the MIDI output or send a
       MIDI patch change message.  The line out comes off of your
       guitar's pickups and travels through the same cable as the stuff
       off of the MIDI pickup, so that you don't need to drag two cables
       around.

       I used the double-faced tape mounts to install the MIDI pickup on
       my '78 Les Paul Custom.  Even though I ordered the Les Paul
       configuration I still needed about half an hour to install the
       pickup.  First, you have to bend this unattractive (looks like a
       tin bar with small nipples covered in heat shrink tubing) rig to
       match the curvature of your bridge, so that the strings are all
       equidistant from the individual pickup coils.  On my guitar, I
       had to slant the pickup so that all of the coils were close to
       their strings.  Then I found that the rubber tubing they're
       supposed to supply with the kit to provide spacing was missing.
       I ended up using the jacket off of some coax I had.  Eventually I
       got everything where it was supposed to be.

       I cabled the Pitchrider box up to my MT32 and spent the next 3
       hours experimenting.  General impressions:

       While the box autoconfigures for relative string amplitude when
       powered on, I got better performance by tweaking the sensitivity
       parameter up a couple of steps from the front panel.

       The volume sensitivity parameter didn't cover a whole lot of
       range.  This may be due to interaction with other parameters I
       haven't uncovered, but right now it seems to be producing about
       two velocities - loud and LOUDER.

       The pitch bend implementation is flat out unusable.  Maybe it's
       just wishful thinking on my part, but I seem to recall that this
       is one of the improvements in the Mark II.  Pitch bend is
       disabled by default (good choice on IVL's part), but when it's
       enabled the interface generates a lot of erroneous pitch bend
       messages.

       Going MIDI really does call for a different touch.  I broke my E
       string before I started playing with the sensitivity parameters.
       Even after that I had to make a conscious effort to get all of
       the notes to play.  Hammer-ons require a little more effort,
       also.  Maybe this is a good thing for cleaning up articulation in
       everyday playing, though...

       Finally, the tracking is adequate for rhythm parts on all but the
       lowest string.  In fact, I got some interesting "doubling" going
       by selecting a guitar patch on the MT32 and mixing in the normal
       output from the Les Paul.

       Conclusions - it's worth $150 bucks and the extra $100 for the
       upgrade doesn't seem too unreasonable, since we're talking $900
       list for this stuff.

       Futures - I think I'll buy an extra bridge for the Les Paul and
       do some surgery so that the MIDI pickup attaches to metal and not
       the finish on my LP.
       

    
    
      Set the Pitch bend to 4 and try it.
    
    
    
    
    
    RichC
    

    Should I buy one of these instead of a keyboard MIDI type unit ??
    Mind you, I can't play keys too well...
    
    jc

    Despite some of the advances in guitar-controller technology, I've
    found that ANYTHING relying on a pitch-to-MIDI conversion scheme is
    gonna be inferior to a keyboard controller. There's a noticable delay
    that increases as pitch decreases. No way around the delay, it's physics.
    
    I've hacked around with Ray Pelkey's CASIO controller, and despite chops
    I can only define as horrendous, I easily outrun it. Much to his credit,
    Ray does a remarkable job. The unit is absolutely unforgiving when it 
    comes to articulation, you've gotta play each note quite purposely. (That
    may be second nature for good guitarists, but I tend to make lots of
    mistakes and cover them up with bends and slides. Sometimes I get away with
    it on guitar, but it sounds horrible when translated to MIDI.)
    
    You CAN adapt your guitar playing style to a guitar controller, but the
    keyboard is still the de-facto MIDI controller.
    
    Edd

       Well, Edd is basically correct, I think in that MIDI is still
       oriented towards keyboards.  So I'm signing up for a piano
       class where the local undergraduate nubiles hang out.  But back
       to the point...

       This Pitchrider gizmo is lots of fun!  The MT32's squarewave
       voice makes a great solo voice.  One of these days I may sit
       down with the Emerson, Lake and Palmer disc and figure out
       Emerson's improvisation at the end.  The more I play with it the
       better it seems to work.  Still trying to find good pitchbend
       settings, though.  (Rich, setting it up to 4 helps, but the pitch
       is sliding around in microsteps, like I'm playing slide or
       something.  Do you have the Mark II?)

       Coop, if you don't already have a MIDI keyboard, then pick up one
       of these AFTER you have a MIDI sound generator to drive.  The
       deal on these things is that you've got a 30 day right-of-return.
       If you don't like it, send it back!

    
    
     Actually, I have the Casio mg510 with a built-in midi interface
    and integral midi pickup. The guitar itself has several modes, mono
    or poly, and the pitchbend has two modes, regular or chromatic.
    
    RichC
    

    Someone just told me that Roloand GR-50 will cost about $1300. 
    That seems pretty expensive. Does anyone know of a Mail order 
    outfit that deals guitar-synths that would be willing to send me 
    some info.
    
    
    Phil

        Musicians Friend  has  the list price shown as $1549.50 and a
        `Call For Special  Sale  Price'.   I'll give `em a call later
        and see what they say for `Special Sale Price'. :^)
        
        Matt

Greetings,

	After reading all the comments in this topic, I've got one question
 that you guys may be able to help with. I'm looking for something like the
Pitchrider or MIDI-pickup type of unit. I have enough SGU's, so all I need is
something to fit in between the guitar and the SGU. The problem in the UK is
everything like this is imported from the States or Japan, and if the cost there
is $200.00, it is 200.00 British Pounds here which is $400.00 !!! Not cheap..

	If any of the dealers there can mail order to the UK, could you supply
a phone number/address/telex or anything that will help me out. Also, what is 
actual price for the Pitchrider Unit ?

cheers,
Otha Smith ( Former Chicagoan )

	

(I've reposted this now I've found the appropriate note...)

ROLAND GR1 Guitar synth.

Anyone seen/heard/played one of these?
Any comments or comparisons with previous models or other systems?

Is it a rackmount type unit? The only place I've seen any representation
at all of the GR1 is a drawing in a competition in Guitar Player (where a GR1
is part of the prize in the "guitar synth" section of the comp'). This
line drawing looks like the unit is a pedal-board type box (perhaps they
didn't know what it looked like, either..."Artist's Impression of the GR1").

*Dave

Well,
I've now seen a review for the GR1 synth, and I must say I'm not that
much the wiser (Guitarist Magazine (UK) October '92).

The synth is housed in a pedal-board type unit (not rack), and has
200 built in sounds. Apparently 64 "patches" are available via the footpedals,
each consisting of a combination of 2 of the available sounds.
The built-in sounds are digital samples and include:-
	- "an excellent grand piano" (no more buttered scones for me, vicar,
				      I'm orf to play the GR1 synthesiser)
	- a "passable electric coral sitar" (peace, man)
	- a "convincing banjo" ( %^}  ;'P )
The quotes are from memory so I might have got them wrong. Further sounds
will be available on (you guessed it) sound library cards.

I would have liked to have seen a) a good electric piano sound
				b) a good Hammond organ sound
				c) a good sax sound

The synth has digital reverb and chorus built-in, and these can be modified
via rotary controls. Because the sounds are digital, you can't create your
own from scratch like you could on the GR50, but you can edit the sounds
to some extent (?). It also has a built-in 4-track sequencer.
The article wasn't clear on whether the synth is touch-sensitive.

I'd still like to hear from anyone who's tried one of these synths. They're
still rare over here.

*Dave

    
    
    I'm behind in my reading, so I haven't seen anything on this system. 
    Is this another rig where you need a special guitar, or a special
    pickup to be added to your existing guitar?
    
    

re....
    
>I'd still like to hear from anyone who's tried one of these synths. They're
>still rare over here.

    
>    I'm behind in my reading, so I haven't seen anything on this system. 
>    Is this another rig where you need a special guitar, or a special
>    pickup to be added to your existing guitar?
 

	A couple of months and perhaps a few I went guitar synthe shopping
and I heard about the GR1 with it's preset sounds,floor mounted etc. It was
about $100 cheaper than the current GR50. I didn't get any info other than 
it's more performance geared and less of a flexible synthe. ie limited
programming,voice modification. It really seemed to be a repackaging effort
on Rolands part. There was no mention of improvement in Pitch to midi 
speeds and what have you. I would expect it to have the same old special
pickup arrangement to be added to your guitar. I mentioned to one dealer
that this must mean that the used market will be seeing a price cut in 
these things? The dealer seemed to believe the GR50 would still be in 
demand for people who want to do more "synthie" things. The ballpark for
a used GR50 was $850 to 1k from a dealer. The one I looked at was around 
the $800 figure,but I was looking to spend less so I decided to wait.
	I also was not real happy with having to adjust my technique to 
play one of these,but we will see.....


							Rick

		
    

Charvel had/has a guitar synth that does an EXCELLENT "Hammond" sounds.

Bulldawg/Pat - remember jamming Deep Purple with John Grueden ??
The guy had a MIDI pickup on an Ovation and was SLAYING !!

    re: -1
    
    didn't he make some kinda Hammond B-3 organ simulation?  I can't
    remember exactly, but I do remember being impressed!
    
    

Thats the one - I couldn't BELEIVE IT !!  Sounded like Deep Purple to me!
Out of an acoustic no less!
jc

    more on Eric Johnson and the GR-1 review:
    
    - Only guitar synth with less than 1ms delay.  It tracks better and
      even kept up with him when doing his 16th and 32nd note arpeggios.
    - No "Casio" guitar.  EJ is a strat man and can still use his strats.
    - no batteries
    - sits on the floor
    - separate tones or mix with the original guitar sound with a flick of
      a switch on the GK-2 pickup.
    - the manual is really simple.  Doesn't even use the word MIDI until
      you get to the more advanced utility functions.
    - the pickup is easy to install and you don't have to deface your
      beloved guitar to do it.
    - there's a hold pattern function on it, which EJ will use a lot live. 
      You can play your guitar over a sustained synth patch.
    - built-in 4 track sequencer, drum kit, 4-part multi-timbral instrument
      section.
    - EJ mentioned he's running into brick walls with his analog effects
      setup.  The digital stuff opens more doors.  His infatuation with the
      violin tone and the GR-1's violin patch really made him beam.
    - He likes the way it textures the tones and thickens chords.
    
    Mike

    Price on this bad boy? (GR-1, not EJ)
    
    

    $1.2k? or so mileage may vary..........