Conference napalm::guitar

    
    I have the Shadow model without the controls.  It sounds like an
    electric guitar to me.  As you noticed, the spring clamp tends to
    mar the finish when you put it in.  
    
    If what you want is an acoustic sound, I'd try somehting else. 
    I originally got mine because I *wanted* an electric sound and didn't
    have the cash for an electric guitar.  Now that I own an electric
    I never use it anymore.  Want to buy it??  8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    
    

    
    
    I'd have to agree.  It does have a great electric lead sound.
    
    B.

    
    Most soundhole pickups are humbucking to reduce hum and feedback,
    however, the concensus is they don't sound like an acoustic.
    No humbucking or single coil magnetic soundhole pickup will produce
    the sound of an acoustic naturally. As was mentioned, they block
    the soundhole, and muffle the acoustic sound of the guitar.
    
    In order to get a natural acoustic sound, you would have to use 
    either a Piezo-electric transducer, or tape transducer. Most single 
    element piezo-electric transducers do not pick up all 6 strings
    equally. One or more strings generally gets muffled. Piezo-electics 
    generally do not produce a very hot signal either, so they usually 
    need some boost to come through an amp/pa loud enough. The Martin 
    thinline tape transducers are becoming quite popular. They produce 
    a nice natural sound, and (if properly installed) pick up all 6 
    strings equally. Martin is offering these as options on all Sigma 
    acoustics. Of course the best in the business was designed by
    Ovations. Their pickup features a separate piezo-electric element 
    for each string, coupled to an active preamp which assures that each
    string comes through equally loud and clear. Few people know this, 
    but you can purchase the Ovations OP24 pickups/preamps and have them
    installed in any guitar, however, the price is quite high (about $350 
    incuding installation). Since Kaman (the parent company for Ovations)
    purchased the Takamine company, they have been using a similar pickup
    in the Taks. The only other company that has anything close is Alvarez
    Yairi. They recently introduced the Biphonic pickup system, which
    features a separate element for each string, however, they do not
    include any active preamp, and this pickup is only available in
    the higher priced guitars.
    
    	I have heard mention of a Baggs pickup system, which supposedly
    is similar to the Ovations and Tamamine pickups. I have no details
    to offer on this system, but a few of the major manufacturers
    of high priced instruments (Santa Cruz, Alvarez Yairi) are offering
    them as options. 
    
    	Bottom line, I guess, is if you are after a natural acoustic
    sound, and have a limited budget, the Martin thinline is the
    best bet, but I recommend you have it professionally installed.
    The cost including installation is about $125 to $150.
    
                            
    	Good luck,
    	Mark

    re last
    
    I was always under the impression that the Takamine electronics
    were adopted by Ovation rather than t'other way around, mind you
    I didn't realise Takamine had been taken over so I could be wrong.
    
    Cheers
    		Pete.

    
    The Ovations pickup was first introduced in the early '70's,
    long before Takamine even offered an acoustic/electric. At that
    time, people were still attaching DiArmond pickups to their
    acoustics to amplify them. Barcus Berry was just beginning to
    introduce their piezo-electric pickups at that time. The BBE
    pickups REQUIRED a preamp. The preamp that they sold at the
    time had a lot of undesireable problems associated with it.
    
    Compared to the BBE pickup and the age-old DiArmond, the Ovations
    pickup system was a god-send.
                                     
    Mark
    
    

    I seen a pickup over at McDuffs that went under the bridge. I don't
    know if you were talking about this one Mark ? It cost $57.00. It
    was small and the guy said it picked up each string individually.
    I might head over there this week, I'll check it out again.
    
    Jim

    I'm not sure what pickup your referring to. For that price it is
    probably a Barcus Berry "Insider" or equivelent. I doubt if it 
    really has a separate piezo crystal for each string at that price.
    What he might have meant is it picks up each string equally. I
    am sceptical !!! They would have to make a believer out of me. 
    A couple of years ago I bought an Insider pickup from them which 
    they promised I would be happy with... I'm not. Right now I am still
    undecided what to do next, but I am considering getting a Martin 
    Thinline installed unless I can find some information on the Baggs
    system.
    
    I have a gig coming up next month for which I need to amplify my
    acoustic through a PA. I am hoping to get something installed in
    time for this gig. I guess I better get off my duff and start
    making some definate plans.
    
    Mark
    

    Well, I've heard the Ovation with the pickup. It sounded great,
    however I could never get used to  the round back on it, and the
    neck action doesn't suit me. 
    
    Jim

    
    Hey again... thanks for all the comments etc...
    
    I decided I really disliked the Shadow pickup.  The more I played
    with it the more I didn't like it.  I couldn't get an ACOUSTIC
    sound I liked.  Also the fact that it marred the finish on my guitar, 
    no matter how slight, really bugged me.   
    
    So... I'm going to play with the Dean Markley pickup and see whether
    I like that or not.  The one I have here (in my hot little hands)
    has a fluorcent orange sticker on it that says "NEW MODEL, ZERO HUM - 
    co-planer, co-axial - DUAL COIL - patent #4,372,186".  Well.. I'm
    not quite sure what all those axioms mean but I'm going to go home
    and see what it sounds like.  
    
    HOWEVER... I'm getting skeptical in my old age.  Mark (re: 947.7)
    could you keep me/us up to date on what you find out about the Martin
    thinline tape transducer pickups.  I'm sortof in the same situation
    you are and am definately not panicing.  Nope, I'm not panicing...
    definately not.. no way.. uh-uh..   Of interest to me would be where
    you find a music store that has the Martin pickups, price, what
    is involved in installation, and other juicy tidbits of info.
    
    I get the feeling that a hole would have to be drilled in the guitar
    during installation.  I'm I right on this?  Does that make you as
    uncomfortable as it makes me???  
    
    Ben.

    
    A lot of stores carry the Martin Thinline. In the Worcester area
    I would suggest Union Music because they have the best full-time
    guitar technician. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, A thinline
    including installation will run about $125 to $150. If you would
    like to get an idea how they sound, check out a Martin Sigma guitar
    with one factory installed. 
    
    Yes, a small hole needs to be drilled below the bridge in the slot.
    We are talking about a hole approx 1/32" in diameter, large aneough
    for a thin wire to be snaked through to the end pin jack. I personlly
    have no reservations about doing it to my guitar, but I just want
    to make sure that this is the best option available before I do
    it. I have already purchased two pickups for this guitar, and am
    not satisfied with either. I have a Dimarzio soundhole pickup
    and a Barcus Berry insider. I have heard of people using a combination
    of both a soundhole and contact pickup and have supposedly gotten
    good results, but again, I am sceptical, and who needs two cables,
    two mixer channels, etc.
    
    
    Mark Jacques
    

    
    Right.  I think I'll go check out a Martin then...
    
    Ben.

<<    and a Barcus Berry insider. I have heard of people using a combination
<<    of both a soundhole and contact pickup and have supposedly gotten
<<    good results, but again, I am sceptical, and who needs two cables,
<<    two mixer channels, etc.
    
	Pat Flynn does something similar to this, with a specially made
patch cable to plug into a stereo mixer.  He's running the Barcus Berry
332.  I've got a warm woody sound (finally) after much experimentation.
Using a Shadow inside, with a pre-amp and equalization on the PA I can
get a nice balance.  The best acoustic sound is still a good microphone, 
and a combination of mike and pickup can work.  
	I spent about 80 bucks on the pickup, another 120 on the pre-amp,
and run it into a Peavy XR600B.  

			[Mike_M]

    James Taylor was playing a Yamaha on PBS this past September. It
    was half the thickness of a regualr acustic, and there was no hole,
    only the assimilation of one, in other words it was black, but
    there was no hole. From the TV it sounded great.

    Jim

    Anybody tried a mini-mike?  It *looks* like a good idea.  No pickup
    sounds as real as a good mike, but sometimes you just can't get
    enough volume without feedback.  I've also tried a combination of
    mike and pickup.  I think could be a good compromise, but I could
    never get the soundperson to understand how to mix it, so I gave
    up.  I usually just use a PL76 condenser mike.

    

    I just checked out a Barcus Berry pickup at Wurlitzers. I think
    it is called a 1332. It looks like a thin steel rail with a mini
    caox cable attached to the center. They claim that it is the same 
    model sold under the Martin thinline name. They also claim that
    Guild is using them in their latest models. I tried one and it
    sounds great. They will install it with the endpin jack for about 
    $85. Sound's like a good deal. They also said that barcus berry 
    makes a preamp that you instrl inside the guitar which brings out 
    the acoustic sound and drives the level of the output higher. The 
    preamp has no volume or eq controls. It is preset. At least it 
    doesn't require any holes to be drilled into the guitar. I am 
    considering having them install both the pickup and preamp on my 
    Guild.
    
    Anyone have any experience with this type of setup. What do you
    think ??
    
    Mark
    
    
    
    
    

    You might want to check out the Seymour-Duncan acoustic pickup.
    It is a soundhole pickup, looks like a lipstick tube with a small
    volume pot on the end. It slips in and out fairly easily, and has some
    rubber padding to prevent marring the finish. It was supposedly
    specially designed to work well with the output of acoustic strings
    with a wound G. I have one that I have used on my Martin with varying
    success. If it's connected to an amp that can produce a nice clean
    sound and that has good tone controls I can get a very satisfying
    acoustic sound out of it. I paid about $65 for it. It is at least one
    alternative to making a permanent installation. Also, it is fairly
    compact, and I never felt that it affected the acoustic sound that much
    if I left it in. But then again I'm not that much of a purist.
    
    - Ram

    
    The choices are becomming staggering.  
    
    I saw the Martin Thinline at Daddy's in S. Nashua yesterday.  Looks
    very unimposing, incredibly small and light.  I'm still up in the
    air as far as drilling a hole in my guitar goes.  I realize it's
    no big deal.  Daddy's is not a Martin dealer so there were no Martin
    Sigma's hanging around to try.   They did have a used and very abused
    Takamine Acoustic with builtin pickups, and EQ.  Daddy's wanted
    $300.00 for it even though the poor thing was trashed.   
    
    Currently I'm still playing with the Dean Markley.  I like the sound
    it has.  Very warm and acoustic.  I think I may use it for the current
    situation.
    
    One thing I noticed with the Dean Markley and the Shadow as well
    which I wonder about is... Does having the pickup in the soundhole
    effect the sound the guitar puts out or the perception of how we 
    hear it?  I notice I'm constantly feeling that the guitar
    is out of tune where I didn't have constant tuning problems
    before. Not being an incredible vocalist I often rely on the guitar
    to help me find the correct notes to sing.  With the pickup in the
    soundhole, wired and running thru my guitar amp I've been having
    a harder time picking up those needed notes yet when I check the
    tuning the guitar is in.   Have I passed into hallucinatory territory?
    
    Ben.
    
    

    
    I've played this game before many time, heres what I finally concluded.
    
    If ya want to play acoustic at home buy a nice guild gibson or
    whatever.If ya want to play out live with acoustic sound buy an
    ovation or something comparable!!  You simply cannot get a better
    sound than a top line ovation!!! I love guild but I play all ovation
    now. 
    
    	Don't get me wrong you can get a decent sound with a add on
    pickup but they DONT compare to a guitar which comes equiped.
    
    		Brian

    well, this is as good a place to ask as any ...
    
    I had a Barcus-Berry insider pickup installed in my acoustic. 
    It sounds great plugged into a guitar amp. It sounds TERRIBLE
    plugged into a PA - all high-end and no bottom. Also, I can't
    seem to get enough volume through the PA. Can anybody tell me
    why this is happening? If I run it through a 'cannon' adapter
    into a mic input will that solve my problem?
    
    thanks for the advice - Dave

     seems to me that you have an impedance mismatch....a preamp 
    (9 volt powered between the guitar and the board should help but
    make sure that the impedance is high- like 1 meg ohm and the output
    impedance should be lower .....I believe it's been discussed here
    b4
    
    -Bill
    

    Well, on the other extreme, I'm looking for an sound hole for my
    ovation acoustic (i have the worlds only ovation with no pickup)
    that SOUNDS ELECTRIC (cause for what little recording i do, i cant
    justify a electric guitar), and something that wont wreck the sound
    hole. I tried the Dean Markley pickup and it was too hard to get in.
    Anyone think I may have the problem with the Dimarzio?
    An earlier note talked about the Semour Duncan looking like a long
    lipstick tube...is it hard to get it to fit? 
    How bout the De-armond (?) something like that.
    The Bill Lawrence?
    
    Any Ideas welcome. I am looking at mail order catalogs that dont show
    pictures, and my local store(s) don't really stock anything.
    
    Regards
    Jay
    
    

    I had the same 'electric sound' problem trying different
    slide in pick-ups. Finally went with the martin thinline
    (under the saddle). Had to get the saddle slot lengthened
    and new saddle (longer) to make it work though. I Am real 
    happy with the sound, but it still sounds electric (but less
    than others did) when played through a regular guitar amp.
     Sounds really acoustic though ,when monitoring by headphones, 
    my tape deck while recording. Now to get a PA or something
    that retains that acoustic flavor.
    
    chuck 

    I've used the S-D soundhole pickup a lot. I wouldn't say it's a breeze
    to install, but it's not a killer either, once you figure it out. You
    can do it without removing or loosening the string. You have to slip
    the whole thing in through the soundhole, pull up the clip on one end
    and secure it, then stretch a finger down and behinde the other end
    clip, pull it back, and slide it up and into the soundhole. It took me
    awhile to figure out a technique for doing this, but once I got the
    hang of it it was fairly easy. On the other hand, I didn't take it out
    often, and I guess I wouldn't really want to have to do something like
    this all the time.
    
    - Ram

    I got a Buffalo Nickel Pickup 14 years ago for my Martin and have been
    fairly satisfied with the sound ever since.  This has a transducer
    approx. the size of a Nickel and about 1/2 inch thick.It is attached to
    the guitar with sticky poster stuff.....the quality of the sound
    depends on where you attach the pickup. The drawback....not all sticky
    is the same and it's tough when the pick-up falls off the guitar just
    as you start the lead to Amy in a crowded bar. Oh well...
    This is a very expensive way to start a coin collection although I
    think mine cost approx $125.00 way back when....the mind is the second
    thing to go.
    

    
    You put sticky stuff on your Martin?!!!  Gasp!  

    I have a DeArmond 260.  It's so easy to pop in and out that I'll pop it
    in just to use the line input on the guitar tuner (rather than the mike
    input), and then pop it right out to play acoustically.
    
    It also has a nice warm sound that I even prefer over the factory-
    installed 332 on my Martin Shenandoah (but with enough gain it will
    sound "electric").
    
    Try one out.
    \Gary

    Thanks for the replies so far.
    
    re: last
    I've seen pictures of the DeArmond 260, but I've never seen it mail
    order. How much are one of those? I know in the back of Guitar Player
    they run a small Ad. I think its between the Bill Lawrence pickup or
    that one. As usual, i'm not in a hurry. :-)
    Thank you.
    

    I think I paid around $60 for my DeArmond 260 a year ago.
    
    I bought it over the counter at Elderly Music in Lansing MI but I have
    to believe they have it in their mail order section.
    
    Call 517-372-7890.
    \Gary

    re: last
    You are one step ahead of me! I Just sent for the Elderly Catalog.
    I didnt know the DeArmond was in there though. Appreciate It.
    Jay

    I ran across a 'new' acoustic pickup the other day. It's a wooden sound
    hole pickup (similar to the Dean Markley), made by a company called
    Lane Poor.  Had a neat, but slightly complicated sliding bar scheme to
    accomodate different soundhole sizes.  Also had a somewhat strange
    shape (not rectangur) to accomodate some sort of staggered pole
    arrangement. I played it thru a PA using a cheap somethingortheother 
    guitar, and it sounded great. A very natural acoustic sound, much 
    better than the 'naked' sound of the guitar.  
    
    I've been half looking for a pickup for my Taylor 510 for home
    recording (too many kids/animals for recording an acoustic with mikes),
    but didn't want to hassle with a bridge pickup/preamp, and never cared 
    for the tone of the soundhole pickups I'd tried, but I probably will 
    get one of these.  Price was $99.
    
    Rodney