Conference napalm::guitar

    
    I think either the Rat by Proco or the Boss Overdrive should do
    what you want.  I think these are the two best floor type overdrive
    units available currently (IMHO).  The other overdrive units are
    geared towards metal players and would probably sound too harsh
    in the upper mid frequencies for your tastes.
    
    Buck

	I have tried for sometime to get that SRV sound myself. Ie;
	clean with some drive on the overtones and harmonics. SRV uses Boogie.
	You might be able to get close with a stomp box, but I also believe it
	takes an over-driven tube amp to get the real thing.

	.-1 mentions the Boss overdrive unit. Generally, I have had good luck 
	with Boss floor effects. I have a Boss analog delay, stereo 
	chorus, compressor, and heavy metal peddle. Haven't really used the 
	Boss overdrive, other than for a quick in the store demo. As I 
	recall it is cleaner than the HMP. The Boss Heavy Metal Peddle 
	provides a fat distortion sound, ala ZZ Top, but doesn't make it 
	for that SRV sound.

	Remember that a lot will depend upon the amp and type of pickups 
	you have. One stomp box on a tube amp might sound quite different on a
	solid state amp.

	If I were you, I'd at least try out the Boss Overdrive.
	Try and make a deal with the store that you can return it in
	a day or so for a refund if you aren't happy. That should
	give you a chance to try it out on your set-up at home.

Rick

    SRV, of course, uses the Ibanez Tube Screamer.  Chandler's
    Tube Driver is a neat box with a real tube in it; someone
    else is making one of these now as well.

    Best bet is to buy a Marshall :-)
    
    /rick

    ditto on .2
    
    Distortion pedals sound better (to me) if I play them through a
    good tube amp, like your typical Fender, than a solid state.

    Remember what Jaco said,  "you can't polish a turd"

    O.K. more info questions,
    
    I currently use a Fender Strat' through a Yamaha G210 100 watt.
    
    It seems a very good amp' but perhaps not what I should be using?
    The main reason I have this particular model is due to the fact
    I needed somthing QUICK when I first start playing electric guit'
    about a year or so ago. I was rehersing with a band in a hall only
    had a studio flat to put my gear in and didn't have that much cash
    
    So a 2 x 10, 100 watt. combo' for 150 pounds secondhand was ideal.
    
    I'm now in the position where I have a spare room in my house for
    all my toot. I play with a band on the odd ocassion in pubs and
    small halls, playing rhythm in an R 'n' B / soul outfit.
    
    Should I think about changing amps. (suggestions please) would
    I still need the pedal ?
    
    Graham ...
    

    Hold your horses .6 !
    
    I used SRV as an example the same as I used B.B. as an example.
    (I think B.B. was using a Jazz Chorus when I saw him at the 
     Albert Hall last year. Don't know wether he uses any pedals ?)
    
    What I'm ultimatley after is a clean Strat' sound with an 'edge'.
    
    mind you I wouldn't complain being able to sound like SRV or BB
    would you ? :-)

    Graham ...

	I don't know anything about Yamaha amps, but here comes a
	few more opinions.

	Go for a good amp first. Stomp boxes are fun, when ya
	need a gizmo to keep your interest up, but they have a 
	tendency to be a pain. One of their advantages is that you
	make incremental "improvements?" in your sound by adding another
	box. You don't have a large one time large outlay.....but...

	Stomp boxes aren't cheap, so it doesn't take long to add up
	to a substancial amount anyway if you buy a few over time. 
	Warning: they can become addictive. One never seems to be enough, 
	so you always end up chaining the them togather. Over a couple of 
	years I ended up with about six of the damn things. That's a few 
	hundred dollars worth and I still didn't have the sound I was 
	looking for. What I did have was more problems...

	Floor boxes constantly eat batteries, make noise,
	and create cabling nightmares on the floor. In an attempt to solve
	this type of problem, I ended up designing and building a floor box 
	to hold all of them, with a common power supply
	and internal cabling. It was okay, but still something I had to 
	constantly fiddle with.

	When I started doing some band work, I found that the stomp boxes 
	were difficult to use for live performances, and essentially 
	unnecessary. (this was R&B also) One by one I started eliminating 
	boxes, until I finally got down to a simple Guitar->amp arrangement. 
	Simpler was better, especially in a large band environment.

	I did start to notice some limitations of the amp, but this time I 
	decided to go for a better amp, rather than trying to one-plus a
	less than adequate amp with add-on boxes,

	So, I finally broke down and bought a Boogie amp. I big cash outlay,
	but it was worth it. Jeeze, I've almost spent enough on batteries
	over the last few years to pay for it. I hardly every use
	my stomp boxes anymore, except ocasionally for some recording work 
	when I want to get a variation sound or stereo in the studio.
	I would prefer to have rack mount effects for that. I don't even 
	bother taking the stomp boxes when gigging, and find that I have 
	more time to concentrate on playing, rather than gadget fiddling.

	I think that it is especially true that R&B requires a pretty straight
	and nautral sound. You just don't need a lot of gimics, and they are 
	more likely to get in the way than help. A good amp is essential
	though. Tubes are still the way to go in my book.
	
	I like Fenders for R&B, but I'd guess that there are a few types 
	of tube amps out there that would work fine. Sombody say Marshall? 
	It need not be expensive either, if you look for used stuff.

	Shop for an amp first.

Rick

    try the Boss Turbo Overdrive!  I've owned about 7 distortion boxes
    before this one and this one seems very versatile for slight dirt
    or heavy metal, but it's very quiet.  the best stomp box i've tried
    for the $
    
    paul
    

    If anyone finds a stomp box that can give you that "singing boogie"
    sound, please let me know.
    
    I'm not a purist, nor a Boogie snob.  I'd gladly trade in my boogie
    the day its sound comes in a box.
    
    I've heard very good approximations of the classic Marshall sounds
    in boxes, but I never heard anything that seemed to even try to
    sound like a Boogie.
    
    My advice is to save your pennies and shoot for something like the
    Boss ME-5 which will give you a lot of the classic "processed guitar"
    sounds for less money and less hassle than a lot of noisey individual
    pedals strung in series.
    
    The ME-5 has a good distortion sound in my opinion, especially if you
    run the whole thing in discreet stereo.
    
    	db

    Ditto re: .1
          
    Hmmm... SRV using Boogie? Really? Gee.. I though he was using "Dumble"
    amps these days? Oh well... it just goes to show ya... nobody is
    ever "really" happy 100% with their tone. I worked with a guy in
    N.Y.C. that had a 210-100watt Yamaha and he also complained about
    his lack of overdrive and all around tone. He added a 2-12" cabinet
    with Celestions and was alot happier with it. Distortion pedals?
    I ditto WJB's "Rat Pedal" unit. Nice tone and it's not too expensive.
    I know someone who just picked up a "new" Rat Pedal" for $49.00.
    Take your guitar to all the music stores you know of and ask to
    try EVERYTHING! Some won't mind, others will, but the stores who
    give you a hard time didn't need your business anyway!  
    
    Good Luck and have fun!
    
    Fred
    

    
    Not to go down a rathole here, but...
    
    I saw both B.B. and SRV use Fender amps when I checked em out.

    Also, if you can find an old fender or esp an old Gibson tube amp
    I think it will do what you're looking for 100% better than any
    old box, although the box is cheaper and so much more *conveeeient*!
    
    PS - Rick Calcagni has a kick a$$ Marshall amp...that thing screams!!!

    For what it's worth.....
    
    If you want a quick fix then a pedal may be the way to go. I would
    try the Chandler Real-tube, it actually overdrives a tube to give
    you the edge sound. I thought it was close to what you're looking
    for.
    
    Re. pedal approaches
    
    An earlier note mentioned the downfall of just adding pedals. I
    tend to agree. It is inexpensive to add just one pedal, but normally
    it doesn't stop there. I went through the pedal-era, lot's of pedals
    lot's of batteries, DC adaptors, noise etc etc. 
    
    I ended up with Scholz Rockmodules with no amp direct into the stage
    mixing board and main board. I'm a happy guy. With two Rockman EQ's
    I can get virutally any sound I want. The distortion is smooth,
    not harsh or muddy and I've cleaned up my act from all those pedals.
    I use an American Standard Strat through a Rockman Sustainor,
    Chorus/Delay and two EQ's. I have one EQ setting for clean and a
    separate one for DIST/EDGE. The guitar is powered through our stage
    monitor system, We each have our own amp and mix. 
    
    Anyway I searched long and hard for a pedal, I liked the real-tube,
    but didn't want to add yet another pedal. I then looked at the
    Rockmodules from SR&D. A rig like mine would probably run around
    550-600. Just a bit more expensive than a pedal.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tony

    re .11
    
    Boogie in a box you say?  I was looking through some old
    Guitar Player mags last week and saw just the thing.  It was
    called "Mini-Boogie" and featured four (count em, four)
    tube stages in a cute little stomp box painted to look sorta
    like a Mesa-Boogie.  I guess they couldn't say it if it wasn't
    true :-)
    
    /rick_whose_marshall_screams

    
    
    	I went the Rockmodules route too,I found the distortion control limiting
and ended up using a Seymour Duncan 60 watt convertible also to get less 
crunch for rythmn parts and a stage monitor/mixer.I use the EQ after the 
module's to get more edge out of them and less middle. I don't use the clean 
sound as much as I bypass the modules to the seymour for clean sounds. I also 
use a Hush to get rid of all the annoying noise from the rockmodules. This gives
me capabilities of four different preamps to set tone on and use effects with.
	I've never much cared for foot devices,but the Ibanez tube screamer is
one pedal I did like and would be worth putting in a rack. I highly recomend
that if you do get a collection of pedals that you check out the Micro-Hush from
Roctron,or the Hush IIB for the rack and I've never heard a better noise 
reduction effect. or didn't hear :^) One Rack,one cab,one solution is the way
to go. 

							Rick

    On these Scholz RockModule things...
    
    Well... I'm really impressed with how they sound too, but I have this
    problem with them: they just sound TOO MUCH like Boston.  Scholz,
    to his credit, has developed a VERY identifiable guitar sound in Boston
    and these boxes are just great for achieving that (I have an X100),
    I mean it's like "Boston in a box".
    
    But I don't think they're very versatile, and although other people
    have disagreed with me on this, I think you plug ANYTHING into them
    (Strat, Les Paul), and it all comes out the same: Boston, especially
    on the more "edgy" settings.
    
    I'd like to see what some of these RockModule fans think of the Boss
    ME-5.  It doesn't have any one "total killer" sound, like the Scholz
    stuff does, but it is very flexible and gets you a wide variety of
    processed guitar sounds.
    
    BTW, if you use the approach of getting an amp, make sure you get one
    with a master volume-type dial.  Otherwise it'll only sound great at
    volume levels your neighbors won't appreciate.
    
    I've even recorded with my 12 watt Dean Markley practice amp.  With
    the preamp volume way up, and the master volume backed down, it gets
    a really good distorted sound.   Since it is the amp I usually practice
    with, I almost feel more comfortable with it than the Boogie these
    days.
    
    	db

    
    	So, as I've always suspected, the boogie sound is somewhere
    in all those cascaded pre-amp stages!
    
    	I've always found it interesting that most people dont understand
    what power really is - the amp with the most crunch is the most
    powerful, right?
    
    	I can tell when I see a Marshall 15 watt for sale for $50 -
    "Oh that's no good - not powerful enough". Well, it sure has a lotta
    gain and a lotta sound. Hook it's headphone outs to a peavey cs800
    and then to 4 4-12 cabs and *then* tell me if it sounds "powerful".
    
    	Joe 

    re: < Note 885.18 by ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI "Our common crisis" >
        
    > I can tell when I see a Marshall 15 watt for sale for $50 -
      
    Where can I get one?
    
    Part of any killer guitar sound is EQ.  An equilizer can help a
    lot. 
    
    I like the Chandler Tube Drivers (and Real Tube units) a lot.  Great
    sound.  I just wish I could afford to get one.  
    
    gh (who wants too many expensive toys...)
                                             

    RE. earlier notes
    
    The X-100 may fit the "Boston in a Box" concept, but I definitely
    disagree with that concept with the modules. For example the chorus
    and delay in the X100 are preset, you can't change the sound. With
    the modules, you can. For example on the Echo, you can change delay
    time, feedback etc. On the Chorus, you can have short or long chorus
    variable with a slide type control. I use a strat and have gotten
    sounds that aren't even remotely close to the "Boston Sound". 
    
    Regarding annoying noise, I have never experienced excessive noise
    with the modules and I use a Strat with stock pickups.  I say judge
    for yourself, with your own guitar. I purposely shyed away from
    the modules because I didn't want to get "pidgenholed" into one
    type of sound. After getting totally frusturated with pedals, 
    PDS1550, Metal Master, RAT, etc., I tried the modules. I found them
    to be very versatile and clean. You may arrive at a different
    conclusion depending on your taste. Find out for yourself.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tony

    RE. 17
    
    I would like to know more about the ME-5, is it like the GEP-50
    by Yamaha.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tony

    
    
    Billy Gibbons used the Rockman extensively in the Eliminator
    and Afterburner albums.  I can kinda see the similarity in the sounds
    but there are a lot o differences.  I do tend to agree with dave,
    that this unit sounds a little *too* much like Boston.
    
    Ashley

    O.K. Gents
    		Thanks for your help so far.
    
    I have spoken to a couple of friends who play in local R 'n' B bands
    They tend to reflect most stuff that has been mentioned here.
    
    One guy uses a 100 watt 2 x 10 Musicman with a Fender Tele' Custom.
    Also has a Boss EQ.
    The other has a 100 watt Master Vol' Marshall stack a Standard Strat'
    and adds a Boss 'Heavy Metal' box WHY ???????????????
    
    They are both of the opinion buy a Tube amp. to start and add a
    pedal or to two *IF* necessary.
    
    So I'm looking ! Re. base note (I think) any suggestions for a small
    amp suitable for bedroom/rehersal enviroment also 'big' enough for
    small pub work ? 
    
    Anybody want to buy a Yamaha G210 and/or a PIGNOSE :-)
    
    As a side issue, Went to the local Marshall dealer yesterday in
    Denmark St. to find out about prices and was given a catalogue and
    price list.
    
    CAN all the different amps sound same/similar, stacks (Standard;
    mini; mid and micro) Combos, all in variants of tube; solid-state;
    Mosfet; Custom and hybrid ???????????????? OR is there no SINGLE
    Marshall sound ? (If not which one do I want ?)
    
    Yours confussed 
    
    Graham ...
    

    The ME-5 was reviewed in another note.  Do a DIR/TITLE=ME-5 to find
    it.
    
    	db

	We've attemped to discuss the various factors that produce
a certain sound before. The idea has also come up in AUDIO
notes, in terms of what's the biggest limiting factor in
getting to "HiFi"? Is it the speaker? The Amplifier? The
source being CD of a record player?

	Likewise, the idea of factors can be applied to getting
a particular sound (or range of sounds) in playing electric
guitar. Some factors could be;

1. Type of electric guitar. (usually strat or les paul)
2. Type of amp. (usually transistor or tube)
3. Type of speaker (usually the cheap stock one or a JBL, BW or
   celestion)
4. Type of EQ (usually fixed or footswitchable)
5. Type of Gain (again, fixed or footswitchable)
6. Number of speakers (1-15, 4-10's, 2-12's, 4-12's, 8-12's, etc)
7. Design of amp (Intended for clean {peavey n-ville 400} or
   dirty {marshall 15 watt studio lead})
8. Input signal dynamics (Compressed or wide range)
9. (oh yeah) Type of pickups (humbuckers or single coil)
10. Strings (flat wound or round wound)


	Various juggling of these factors, often taking *years*
is what gives a particular performer his playing styles'
sound. There are more that I havent thought of, such as the
circuitry within the guitar itself, passive or active, coils
phasable or not, etc. My point is that is is *NOT* a trivial
task sorting all this out, which is why there really is no
easy solution, no "wonder box" that's gonna make whatever you
have sound just like ______.

	Joe Jas
< Note 885.23 by VIVIAN::BENNETT "The blues had a baby ..." >
                  -< One of there amps is both the same ?!*@ >-

    O.K. Gents
    		Thanks for your help so far.
    
    I have spoken to a couple of friends who play in local R 'n' B bands
    They tend to reflect most stuff that has been mentioned here.
    
    One guy uses a 100 watt 2 x 10 Musicman with a Fender Tele' Custom.
    Also has a Boss EQ.
    The other has a 100 watt Master Vol' Marshall stack a Standard Strat'
    and adds a Boss 'Heavy Metal' box WHY ???????????????
    
    They are both of the opinion buy a Tube amp. to start and add a
    pedal or to two *IF* necessary.
    
    So I'm looking ! Re. base note (I think) any suggestions for a small
    amp suitable for bedroom/rehersal enviroment also 'big' enough for
    small pub work ? 
    
    Anybody want to buy a Yamaha G210 and/or a PIGNOSE :-)
    
    As a side issue, Went to the local Marshall dealer yesterday in
    Denmark St. to find out about prices and was given a catalogue and
    price list.
    
    CAN all the different amps sound same/similar, stacks (Standard;
    mini; mid and micro) Combos, all in variants of tube; solid-state;
    Mosfet; Custom and hybrid ???????????????? OR is there no SINGLE
    Marshall sound ? (If not which one do I want ?)
    
    Yours confussed 
    
    Graham ...
    

    re .22
    
    Not only does Billy Gibbons use the Rockman, but he uses three or
    more of them cascaded!!!  Talk about overdrive

    Anyone know of a Volume Pedal that has switchable Wah-Wah (that can be
    easily switched by foot)?   From what I hear, the DOD FX17 isn't easily
    switched.  
    
    Mike

    
    Re: .27
    
    Morley volume/wahs will do the trick.  They don't sound like Cry Babys
    much, but they are built like tanks and have *no pots* to get scratchy.
    
    A stomp switch to one side of the pedal changes mode.
    
    						Brian

    Damn, I know there's a discussion of the Ibanez Tube Screamer around
    somewhere.  Well, anyway...
    
    Latest GP is the "Distortion" issue; one small, rather interesting
    article is titled "A Shrine to the TS-9".  Good article, some cool
    history.  The TS-9 was issued in the early 80's and was basically
    a repackage of an earlier Ibanez box, the TS-808 (anyone got one
    of these!?).  Ibanez engineers eventually considered the TS-9 circuit
    too unstable, and a new "improved" circuit was issued in the TS-10.
    Unfortunately, that "unstable" circuit was thought by many to sound
    better.  Original TS-9s are now hot items and sell for as much as $150.
    However, the good news is that Ibanez just introduced a new pedal, the
    TS-5, that is supposed to be an original TS-9 in a new package; list
    price on these is $50.
    
    Quote from the article: "The Tube Screamer simply does a better job of
    emulating a tube amp than any other solid-state distortion stomp box".  
    
    /rick

    I didn't notice that, but I did notice that Eric Johnson said he was
    very surprised at how close the new Tube Screamer "Classic" (TS-5?)
    sounds to the old ones in the section where various artists describe
    their distortion setups.
    
    Greg

    More news: there's a Sovtek made re-issue of the old Electro-Harmonix
    Big Muff out!  Actually, I believe EH founder Mike Matthews also
    founded and heads Sovtek.  The new pedal is made in the Soviet Union and
    is housed in a big clunky box with 50's Euro-tech knobs and styling;
    the ultimate in retro!

re: .29

>    Latest GP is the "Distortion" issue; one small, rather interesting
>    article is titled "A Shrine to the TS-9".  Good article, some cool
>    history.  The TS-9 was issued in the early 80's and was basically

What page is that article on?  I can't seem to find it in my copy.

    This TS-n stuff is interesting. Back around '82 I tried a Tube Screamer
    out and really liked what it did. About 6 or 9 months later I bought one
    but it looked a bit different than the one I originally tried. I never
    liked the way it sounded so I eventually dumped it for like $20. Maybe I
    should check out this "classic" one. eh?

    --Ron

    The new TS-5 is the cheaper "Soundtank" version, the one that looks
    kinda like a ladybug, list is $50 so you can probably deal them in the
    $35-40 range.  List on the TS-10 is $80, by comparison.
    
    The TS-9 models had these tiny silver stomp buttons, wicked ugly.
    
    						Larry Welk

    Ibanez now makes these inexpensive pedals- "Sound tanks"  (IMHO, the
    name is as cheesey as the quality), which has a "tube screamer"... This
    can't be the same sound that all of you are talking so highly of, is
    it?  

    The one that I bought back in '82 was green, had vol and tone and a LED,
    and the stomp button was a big silver rectangle that I believe hinged at
    the front edge. It did not produce a nice overdrive sound. I now use the
    preamp section out of a Fender Sidekick 25R amp into my old 50W Marshall
    top and it produces the best range of overdrive sounds of anything that
    I've ever tried. Makes a great Ry Cooder sound, E.C. Bluesbreakers. I
    can get real silly and crank it into the insane gain range but that's
    not my style. But it'll do it. psst, don't tell anyone. I'ts my little
    secret.

    --Ron

    Another thing EJ said is that those pedals were inconsistant.  He said
    he went through 10-15 of 'em before he found two that he liked.
    
    But this is coming from a guy that claims to hear a difference in his
    stomps depending on the brand of battery he uses, so ya know he's gotta
    be pretty picky!
    
    Greg

    I think the TS-9 article is around page 150 or so; I can check tonight.
    It's a small, side-box sort of thing.
    
    New GP also has a good distortion pedal "shootout" with lots of info
    and opinions; good reading if you're in the market.
    
    Better yet, next time you're in Worcester stop by Union Music.  They
    have a real nifty demo setup for Boss stompers; a ton of pedals (pretty
    much every one I can think of, a few I never even heard of) mounted to
    a slant board and wired in series to a PV combo.  They even have a tuner
    already in-line.  Just plug in and stomp away, a quick and easy way to
    test drive a bunch of pedals.  Instant gratification!

    I think I saw one of those stomp box displays in a store I was in.
    Didn't dare go near it. Scary lookin'.

    EJ can hear the difference in battery brands? Huh? Picky isn't the word
    that comes to my mind. Was is it that great musicians always turn
    out to be twits. Too much time practicing I suppose.

    --Ron