Conference napalm::guitar

    wire the new switch exactly like the old switch and it'll work just
    fine.
    
    dave

Re .-1 ...
*
*
*    wire the new switch exactly like the old switch and it'll work just
*    fine.
*    
*   dave


Dave,

	I don't understand how that results in the two additional 
	out of phase switch settings. Dosen't the switch have to reverse
	the polarity of the pickups somehow in the out-of-phase 
	positions?

Confused,
Rick

    A stock Strat 3 position switch does the following
    
    	position 1 - neck pickup
    	position 2 - middle pickup
    	position 3 - bridge pickup
    
    With a 5 position switch you get
    
    	position 1 - neck pickup
    	position 2 - neck and middle pickups (in phase)
    	position 3 - middle pickup
    	position 4 - middle and bridge pickup (in phase)
    	position 5 - bridge pickup
    
    None of the positions are actually out of phase, however the sounds
    you are after are probably not truely out of phase anyways. If you
    did wire 2 Strat pickups out of phase with each other, the result
    would be ultra-thin sound (all bight with no bottom end at all).
    This sound is actually not very useful. Most people think a 5 position
    switch gives them 2 out-of-phase positions, but this is just a mis-
    conception. 
    
    Try wiring the 5 way switch just like the stock switch and listen
    to the results. You will most likely be happy with the results even 
    though it is not actually out-of-phase.
           
    I once wired a Strat with 3 dpdt switches. This allowed me to kick
    in any pickup I wanted in or out of phase for a total of 9 differant
    possibilities. I found the out-of-phase combinations sounded watery
    and were succeptable to loading problems when using any effects
    at all. Switching on the fly was confusing since I sometimes would
    have to switch 2 or more switches at a time. I eventually returned
    to the 5 position switch. I am now thouroughly convinced it is the
    best switching scheme for a Strat.
     
    Good luck,
    Mark
    
    

    If you have your mind set on achieving true out-of-phase 
    sounds from the 5 position switch, all you have to do is
    wire the middle pickup backwards (ie. wire the black ground
    wire to the switch and the white hot lead to ground. This
    will yield the following results:
    
    	position 1 - neck pickup
    	position 2 - neck and middle pickup (out of phase)
    	position 3 - middle pick (will sound normal even though it is
    	reverse wired)
    	position 4 - middle and bridge pickup (out of phase)
    	position 5 - bridge pickup
    
    
    	This does not mean that I would recommend this scheme. As I
    mentioned in .3 out-of-phase wiring can lead to watery sound and
    pickup loading problems, but it is an easy way of achieving true
    out of phase wiring if this is what you really want.
    
    	Mark
    
    

    Go one step at a time here.
    
    RE. .1  db's right on the money!
    
    Wire it just like to old switch. You'll like the results!
    After you're tired of the same ole' 5 positions..........
     then try something different if you want!
    
    Fred
    

Aaaaaah! Now it all makes sense to me! I now understand that
I don't truely  want out-of-phase. What I want is the ability
to select top/middle and bottom/middle pickups simultaneously.

I'm looking to acheive the kind of sound you get when you leave 
a three position switch halfway between 1+2 or 3+2 positions. 
I now understand "faking-out" a 3pos switch in this way actually 
selects two pickups at once, rather than having anything to do 
with phasing.    

It all seems so simple now. Soldering iron here I come.

Thanks
Rick

We'll I finally got my 5 position switch wired in and working.
It was a bit more difficult than I expected. I'll relate some
of the problems I encountered so others can avoid them.

The first 5 position switch that I bought didn't fit my Strat.
The holes in the switch did not line up with the holes on
the pick-guard. This switch was obviously for some Strat copy, and
not for a real Strat, since I've observed that real Strats haven't 
changed this dimension regardless of variation and year. I didn't 
discover the descrepancy until I had loosened all of the strings, 
and removed the entire pick guard.

	Recomendation 1 : Make sure you have a reasonable facsimile of
		a real Strat switch before wasting time tearing 
		things apart. Check for	the alignment of holes on 
		the switch and on the guitar by holding the switch 
		up against the guitar and eyeballing it.

So, I picked up another switch (at another store that is a Fender
Dealer). They spend quite a while looking at IPB's and parts lists
to verify it was the correct replacement switch. They were however
looking at IPB's and parts lists for more modern versions of Strats.
I doubt they had anything as far back as 1971. The fact that they had parts
list at all made me a bit more comfortable that I might get the right switch.
It's an after market thing for a 1971, so it is reasonable to expect some
variations, depending on the switch vendor.

$8.95 for the switch, $.50 for the switch cover (little plastic thingy that
goes on the end that you touch when throwing the switch). The little
plastic thingy was obviously not a strat switch cover, but it came close
to fitting, and I thought maybe I'd break the original removing it.

(I didn't break the original, but it didn't fit on the new switch either,
so it was a good thing that I got the new cover.)

Pulled my axe apart once more after checking that the holes lined up.
They DID this time, BUT the threading of the old retaining bolts didn't match
those in the new switch. urrrrrrrr

Back to the store, to get the right screws. $.20 a piece, and they were
tapered pan-heads instead of plain (flat bottom) pan heads that were
original equipment. I figured that it wouldn't be too obvious, and I could
always find the correct screws at some later time as long as these held it
all togather.

I should note that the switch was marked with the part number DM-50.
The dealer said that for some years now, Fender has been using Demarzio
switches, like the second one I bought. It did look identical to
the original 3 pos switch.

	Recomendation 2: Don't do this the day before a major Gig,
		unless you live real close to a Fender dealer.
		You could find yourself driving back and forth a lot.

I sucessfully removed the original 3 pos switch, and mounted the new
switch. I then carefully de-soldered the leads from the orginal, and
soldered them on the new switch, being careful to make sure that
each wire was placed exactally as the original. (This was according to
advice I got in this note, that I may have interpreted oversimply)  
There were the same number of solder pins on each switch, and they 
look mechanically very much the same. I had to lengthen one wire, 
because of a slightly different orientation of pins.

I put the works back togather and plugged it into my (expendable) 
Univox shitbox amp. The neck pick-up worked, when switch is in the uppermost
position. The second switch position selected neck and middle
pick-ups, but nothing on the bridge pick-up, and the tone controls
didn't do anything. 

I tore it all apart, and examined the circuit and switches. I discovered
that, although the two switches were almost completely identical 
mechanically, springs, pins, bearings etc, the metal strip that
made contact with the pins were 180 degrees out of phase with the
original switch. Hummm? "Similar <> Same."

After scratching my head for a few minutes, I decided that the new switch
must be mounted in the opposite orientation as the original to acheive the
desired effect. This required some wire-to-pin rearrangement as well
as mechanical reorientation. I was hoping to get away with this installation 
without figuring out how the circuit worked. Thats the understanding that 
I got from some of the previous replies. As I said before, I must have 
read something into them that wasn't intended.
Fortunately I had made a drawing of the
original set-up which I used to guide me in my rewiring. Analysis
and comparision of the operation of the original switch and new switch
was necessary.

I was able to use a small magnet to verify the operation of pick-ups
without re-assembling the pick-guard onto the guitar. While the amp
is plugged in, a few touches of magnet to pick-up will produce
a tell-tale click in the amp that will let you verify its operation.
This turned out to be a useful trick, and saved some re-assembly.

I rewired it in a way that seemed appropriate, and it passed the magnet test.
Top switch position, neck pick-up works, Next one down gets neck and
middle. Third down is middle alone, etc.

I reassembled the works again, for a complete the test. Aaaarrrggg!
The tone controls were operating on the bridge and middle pick-ups.
This is very un-strat-like behaviour. Normally there is no tone control
on the bridge pick-up. (Note: the magnet trick doesn't check out tone)

I disassembled it again, and moved wires from the tone controls up one
set of pins so they affected the correct pick-ups.

Reassamble, and test once more. Finally, it all works as expected.
I do notice a small additional 60hz hum when its in the dual pick-up 
positions. My guess is it is not anything I've done wrong, but simply the 
fact that you have two antennea in the dual pick-up position 
(and corrospondingly more noise) than just a single
pick-up is selected.

Anyway, from my experience it's not as easy as it might seem.
I was expecting kind of a one for one swap, that required little more
intellectual ability than wiring leads from one switch to the
same position on a very similar switch. As it turned out, it required
reproducing the orginial circuit function, on a switch that was
similar electrically, but drastically different in mechanical operation.
That means the physical routing of wires is very different in each
arrangement, even though electrically they operate in a very similar fashion.

In any case, I would NOT have been able to do this without the help
of some of the previous replies to this note. (about what a 5 position
switch is supposed to do).

Rick

    ref 824.7
    
    Hi Rick,  sorry to hear about all your hassles.
    
    Now you have got your 5 position switch on - board and sorted, I
    noticed that in this months Guitar Player ( the one with the musicians
    of the year on the cover) has a GREAT item on a versatile modification
    for all you strat owners. I intend to use it. 
    
    In essence you do not modify the body in any way, it has been really
    well thought out. Just replace the neck tone control with a 6 pole/
    4 way switch. This gives you ( I think ) something like 15 new sounds
    including REAL out-of phase selection. It is used in conjunction
    with your existing 5 position switch. The strat looks just as a
    stock model.  
    If you can't get a copy,let me know and I will mail you a copy of
    the article.
    
    Regards......Dave Litten  TRUCKS::LITTEN   DTN   782-2314
    

    for anyone who is interested....
    
    I simply filed two extra groves in the existing 3 pos. switch on
    my	73 start and it works like a dream (regular 5 pos. switch)
    
    Ray
    

    
    Ok guys...so its not a strat its a charvel pointy headed thing (called 
    a predator....yuck I hate that name, conjures up images of teased
    bleached hair and leopard skin spandex...)..anyway, I have one problem
    with this otherwise usable guitar. The volume control sucks...big time.
    
    	The guitar has a five position switch, a stacked humbucker in the
    neck position and a normal humbucker at the bridge, it only has the one
    volume knob (no other controls). The two problems I have is that
    firstly the volume control only works effectively for about the last
    1/8th of its movement (does dog-leg explain it to you US doods?),
    secondly as soon as you back off the volume more than about that 1/8th
    of an inch the tone muddys up so badly that I don't use the volume
    control. 
    
    	What I'm after in some plain words is how I can remedy this, I
    guess with two humbuckers and a five way switch I should be able to get
    all sorts of noises out of this beast, and I'm not above
    drilling/gouging some holes in the guitar to install extra knobs,
    switches to get this thing sounding right.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    J.

    
    OK, I just re-read my note about wanting the answer in plain English...
    
    Please guys don't start off on a ....Buy a (insert brand name
    here).....rathole!!!!
    
    J ;-)
    

    re .12
    
    Jason you've got a common problem there dude. Anytime you rolloff the
    volume the tone will change. I'll let one of the Engineer propellor
    heads explain why. There are things you can do to improve that rolloff
    characteristic so it isn't quite so noticeable. the cheapest way is to
    install a capacitor between the wiper and the signal side of the volume
    potentiometer. It's a pretty small one, in the order of a pico farad I
    think, I can't remember. Call up any good guitar repair guy and he'll
    tell you for sure what values to try. 
    
    I used to have the same problem with one of my guitars and installed a
    cap. It worked out pretty well bu like I say, you'll never get the
    volume to rolloff completely without effecting the tone somewhat.
    
    
    "sakman" who's definitely lost some brain cells since the days I knew
    all about this stuff (capacitance,reactance, xc=2(pi)fC).
                                                

    I've heard that the volume pots used in Charvel guitars are
    particularly prone to failure due to exposure to the lint which spandex
    gives off.  Try spraying out the pot with an electronic component
    cleaner.  You can avoid this in the future by not wearing the
    spandex clothing.

    As I recall, there may also be a connection to bleach and hair spray
    residue with these guitars.

    
    Seriously?  The dog leg problem sounds like a bad pot to me.  Now the
    clarity issue could be more difficult.  I've noticed that different
    pickups have different reactions to the partial volume settings.  The
    worst reaction I've ever seen was from a Duncan Invader (very high
    output, passive electronic) pickup.  It had a killer thick warm sound
    when the volume was turned up all the way, but when you reduced the
    guitar volume it became thin and squalky sounding.  The difference was
    dramatic.  The pickups in my Les Paul Deluxe don't seem to change tone
    much when the volume is rolled off.  I suspect that the higher the
    output of the pickup, the more succeptable they are to this kind of
    change.

    I remember someone describing adding the capacitor, like Sakman
    suggested in .12, in this notesfile somewhere.  They had suggested
    values of the capacitors in the note describing the modification.  For
    some reason I thought it was only applicable to single coil pickups
    though.  I'm sure someone will correct me if that's not the case.

    Good luck,
    Greg

    
    	Thanks for the answers so far....but I've been thinking. (uh-oh)
    
    
    	The guitar has two humbuckers, so I reckon by installing two 3-way
    	switches I should be able to coil tap them both ways...front coil
    	off, rear coil off using this bit off thinking I think I should
    	be able to wire it up to get......(are you ready)
    
    
    	Neck on
    	Neck tapped (front coil)
    	Neck tapped (read coil)
    	Both on
    	Rear on 
    	Rear tapped (front coil)
    	Rear tapped (rear coil)
    
    	So by replacing the 5 way switch with a 3 way switch and adding a
    	small three way switch for each humbucker I should be able to get
    	all the permutations possible, including all the out of phase ones?
    
    	Does this work? What would the wiring diagram look like? (oh yeh I
    	still fancy the idea of just the volume pot....I don't want to many
    	thing to fiddle with :-)
    
    	J. (who don't know nuffink 'bout elektriks.....I'm a S/W type!)

    re .14
    
    >> (oh yeh I
    	still fancy the idea of just the volume pot....I don't want to many
    	thing to fiddle with :-)                                 
    
    J bird, 'r you nuts? Seems to me that what you wanna do, and the statement
    above are a conflict of interest. Goodly Lord, with all the switch 
    combinations, how you gonna keep it all straight what does what? 
    Yeah sure, I guess you'll get all that you said. Besides, it is just a
    Charvel isn't it? its not like this is gonna be your life-long friend
    and companion as together you explore the musical universe. Chances
    are, no matter how many switches and sounds you got, you're gonna feel
    the pull of GTS and wanna get rid of it. Eh?
    
    "sakman" 

With reference to the capacitor across the volume pot problem......

I have done this to my strat.  This mod was mentioned in one of the free 
issue Fender mags from my local music store ( can't remember the name).

They come out regularly and have a "technical" column.  From memory the value
capacitor was either a 1000 pF ( = 1 nF) or 10,000 pF.  But I will if required
look it up at home and post the recommended value (from the lips of the Fender
experts!)

Now I must confess ( as a semi propellor head!), that I am a little confused 
about the mod ( I did not hear any difference after fitting the mod).

The tone change problem is due (in my opinion) to the cord impedance 
"loading" the pickup/controls circuit and rolling off the higher frequencies 
when the pot was "full on". As the volume pot is turned down it exhibits a 
lower impedance to the cord and the higher frequencies are restored and passed 
on to the amp.

Thus the effect (on every strat I have owned) is to get a more treble tone as
the volume is turned down. The article in the Fender mag, and the mod, suggests
the converse is true ie. top frequencies are lost as the control is backed off.

Still, I fitted it anyway!!

I agree with a previous reply, that your volume pot is probably worn/faulty.

For my money, I would stay away from multi-switches, you might as well 
experiment which pickup selection you like best and wire that selection 
(limited to five) to your switch.  By the way, I recall a Guitar Player mod
for a strat that replaced the tone control with a rotary switch that gave all
the wierd combinations without additional messy switches. I got the opinion
that it was devised by a technician rather than a musician...so I never 
bothered to try it out.

regards,

Dave

(who thinks that less wires/cords/controls = best tone)

    re: .-1
    
    FWIW, I also agree with Dave about limiting the options.  I've had
    several guitars with phase switches and coil taps and stuff like that
    and the bottom line was that I NEVER USED 'EM!  Personally, I *hate*
    the sound of out-of-phase pickups anyway, and I don't particularly like
    thin squeeky sounds either, I almost never use the 2 and 4 positions on
    my Strat.
    
    I think that if I had your guitar and wanted a little more versatility,
    I'd change the 5 position switch to a three position (either pickup
    alone or both) and add a "balance" knob which would determine the
    mix of the two pickups when they were both selected.  This setup is
    much quicker/easier to use then the standard Gibson "volume for each
    pickup" setup, but still allows you the same versatility.  
    
    I like a master volume control myself because I change it constantly
    while I play and I don't really like having to hunt around for
    whichever one is currently selected (or BOTH of them).
    
    In fact, I might consider rewiring my Les Paul that way (ie, change one
    of the volume knobs to a "balance" knob) if someone could tell me how
    to wire it.
    
    Greg
             

>The tone change problem is due (in my opinion) to the cord impedance 
>"loading" the pickup/controls circuit and rolling off the higher frequencies 
>when the pot was "full on". As the volume pot is turned down it exhibits a 
>lower impedance to the cord and the higher frequencies are restored and passed 
>on to the amp.

>Thus the effect (on every strat I have owned) is to get a more treble tone as
>the volume is turned down. The article in the Fender mag, and the mod, suggests
>the converse is true ie. top frequencies are lost as the control is backed off.

    Ah, grasshopper!  What yopu have overlooked is that the cable has a
    *complex* impedance, not only resistance but *capacitance*.  The cord
    plus volume pot equals a low pass filter circuit.  
    
    						Brian

>Thus the effect (on every strat I have owned) is to get a more treble tone as
>the volume is turned down. The article in the Fender mag, and the mod, suggests
>the converse is true ie. top frequencies are lost as the control is backed off.

    My experience has been exactly as the column states, i.e. hi-end loss
    when the volume is backed off from maximum. I believe that I entered the
    mod in this conference somewhere last year. I'll try to find it and post
    a pointer to it.

    --rjb

>
>    re: .-1
>    
>    FWIW, I also agree with Dave about limiting the options.  I've had
>    several guitars with phase switches and coil taps and stuff like that
>    and the bottom line was that I NEVER USED 'EM! 


Greg,

	Yeh !! Pleased to hear a fellow muso agreeing that less is more. 

     I feel the same way about these darn hi-tech rack processors that make 
     any ole strat sound the same MOR overdrive/echo/hammer-on/tap/bend up to 
     ultrasound during the last bar of the solo/ type of records.

     I'm sure you know what I mean !.......come back taste and tone.

>    I'd change the 5 position switch to a three position (either pickup
>    alone or both) and add a "balance" knob which would determine the
>    mix of the two pickups when they were both selected. 

     Hmmmmm...read on.  Must say though, that I do like the subtle tone shift
     from combinations of standard wired pickups. I once rewired my 1960 strat
     to obtain the bridge and neck pickup in combination. Now that gave a GREAT
     tone...something like a thick timbral variant of the usual out-of-phase
     sound ala Dire Straits.


>    In fact, I might consider rewiring my Les Paul that way (ie, change one
>    of the volume knobs to a "balance" knob) if someone could tell me how
>    to wire it.

There are several ways some using fancy dual-ganged pots. But I would recommend
the following. I suggest using your current volume pot (probably 1 Meg ?) to
try it out. Rewire as follows.......

pickup 1.                                     pickup 2.

   +-----+                                    +-----+ 
   |     |                                    |     |
   |     +-------------*Volume pot*-----------+     |
   |     |                   ^                |     |
   |     |                   |wiper           |     |
   |     +-----+             |         +------+     |
   |     |     |             |         |      |     |
   +-----+     |             |         |      +-----+
               earth      to output    earth
                          

You MAY need to solder a 470 K resistor across the output (jack) socket to
make the blend from one pickup to the next a little smoother, but try it
out first.

Good Luck !

Dave

    Thanks Dave!  I'll give it a shot.  One question though, I do still
    want to retain the three position switch's function.  I only want the
    "balance" control to work when I have the switch in the middle
    position.  How would you do that?
    
    FWIW, I've totally gone back to basics as far as guitar sounds.  I just
    run my guitar into a Marshall and that's it these days.  You're
    absolutely right about some of those effect processors having a real
    generic sound!
    
    Greg

I had a strat copy that I used to experiment with.  Once I placed the 5 
position switch in and then placed a separate toggle switch in the pickguard.
That switch turned the neck pickup on and off regardless of the pickups that
were currently on.  This gave me the option of having ANY pickup or combination
of the three pickups on.  I liked the neck and bridge pickups for tele sounds.
It was also interesting to have all three on at once.  

Then to make things worse, I put a humbucker in the bridge, 2 single coils in
the normal neck and middle positions, and a THIRD single coil between the neck
and middle pickups.  This third pickup had it's own on/off toggle switch
similar to the one for the neck pickup.  

It was a fun guitar to experiment on.  I never really hurt the guitar, I just
had different pickguards with different stuff on them.  To each his own I guess

/marc 

    you may need to change the pot from linear to audio or logarhythmic
    taper....that sounds like a classic case of that....