Conference napalm::guitar

    The "good" teacher's gotta be the one that teaches you what you
    want to learn...as fast as you can learn it, and who'll identify
    the extras relevant to your style that you've overlooked.
    
    
    I went through several a few years back ;
    
    The first guy was only interested in classical training and tried
    to make me play an electric ( right-handed ) classical style across
    my left knee !
    
    The second was a "by ear" player and had to look up the Blues Scale
    before he could show me the notes...
    
    The third guy was magnificent ! He knew it all, played everything from
    'Little Wing' to Bach and could communicate it all in context into the
    bargain. Unfortunately ( for me anyway ) his band got a Contract after
    I'd had four lessons...  never found another so inspiring. 
    
    
    Still looking ( if there are any *accomplished* rock player / tutors
    around Geneva looking for a dedicated student ! ),
    
    Dave.

    
    
    	You've got to have a teacher that knows when to indulge your
    own preferences and when to drive you himself.  If the teacher just
    shoves his material down your throat, you lose the desire to practice
    as much, and your playing will suffer.  More importantly, you won't
    be developing into your own guitarist, you'll just be a clone of
    him.  On the other hand, if the teacher just gives you what you
    want, you'll have too narrow a perspective on music, and unless
    you're the type of player who constantly challenges himself, you'll
    be in for some real disappointments.  
    	Incidentally, these comments come from 4 years of lessons which
    were frustrating, boring, exhilerating and very rewarding.  There's
    no easy way to become a great quitarist, I sure as *ell wish there
    was.
    
    
    							Bruce McCormack

    The definition of a good teacher varies depending on what you are
    looking to learn, and your background.
    
    Teaching beginers is one thing. Here you have to make sure the student
    picks up all the basics with no gaping holes in their background.
    You also have to do what's necessary to keep them interested. I
    find with beginers, it's best to teach them a few chords and some
    songs they can play as soon as possible. If a young student has
    to spend a year learning the basics before he/she can play even
    one song, they are not going to stick with it long enough to get
    to that point. Sometimes it means learning a few popular songs
    off MTV or the radio to teach them to keep them interested.
                                                              
    Teaching advanced students is a specialzed field. Once a person
    learns all the basics, they generally decide they want to concentrate
    on Jazz, Blues, HM, bluegrass, etc. At this point they are better
    off finding a teacher that will allow them to continue building
    on what they have already learned while developing a style at the
    same time. Steve Concelli (sp) is a great teacher of jazz guitar,
    (I mention Steve because I know that you have taken lessons from
    him) but he would be the wrong choice for someone that is mainly 
    interested in Metal. Granted, he has a lot of general technique
    that anyone can benefit from, but I believe someone wishing to
    master HM should look for someone else to learn from.
    
    Mark 
             
    

    re .3:
    
    where does Steve live/teach?
    
    -Dave

    One more example of a not so good guitar teacher is one that will
    give you a new lesson during the first five minutes of your lesson,
    then he tells you to try it. Meanwhile he leaves the room to talk
    on the phone, then returns for the last five minutes to tell you
    
    to go home and practic. Then you find youself asking, "practice
    
    what ???" I think a teacher should explaine the new topic when he
    
    or she introduces the topic. The teacher should make sure the student
    
    understands it enough to go home and practice it or else the studen
    
    won't get anywhere. When the next lesson arrives and the teacher
    
    tells the student to play what they practiced, the student will
    
    just sit there and say "i don't get it". Speaking from experience,
    
    the student will most likely loose interest very quickly and just
    
    quit all together.
    
                                              -laurie
    

    What are some important questions you ask when interviewing a potential
    teacher?  I have the following, but I'm sure I'm missing something...
    
    Musical Styles (rock, jazz, folk, etc.)
    Theory (as it applies to the guitar)
    Location (where lessons will be taught)
    Fees 
    Schedule (every week, biweekly, monthly)
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    Does anyone out there know enough about GIT to recommend their
    graduates as teachers?  Not that they would necessarily be better than
    anyone else, but there are a couple graduates in the area advertising
    for giving lessons.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    The local city park/recreation group started some summer music camps
    this year.  I start 8 weeks of semi-private, half-hour lessons next 
    week that only cost $26.  Smokin' deal!
    
    I talked to the teacher today and he placed me in an intermediate
    group and said that we'll concentrate on some theory.   He listed 
    Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery as some of his influences.  Anyone familiar
    with these guys?  Is this jazz?
    
    Mike

    re .-1
    
    yeah, Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery are about as jazz as you can get!

    -1
    
    You might wanna hold out for the Lynch/DiMartini influenced dude!
    ];^>

	It's mystically brain-wrenching jazz. It's only 8 weeks, it's
	cheap and if my own experience is any indication you'll have
	plenty to think about for a long time by the time you finish.

	Go for it & keep us posted.

    Re: Lynch
    
    George is a busy man.  He's constantly flying to LA just to practice
    with his band, and that is everyday.  Lucky for him it is only a 45
    minute flight from Phoenix.
    
    Mike

    
    	My teach is a lynch influenced dude for shore!  We sometimes
    have trouble coming up with songs we both know.  Last week, we hit
    common ground tho'.  
    
    "You know The Ocean by Zeppelin?"  "Yeah, I know that!"
    
    "How 'bout Good Times/Bad Times?"  "Yeah, yeah!"
    
    	.
    	.
    	.
    
    -pat

    My first audition is tonight, looking forward to it!
    
    Mike

    What would you say to a teacher that says you won't continue to
    progress if you don't get in a band?
    
    Mike 

    re .-1
    
    how about "do you know any bands looking for a guitar player?"
    
    It helps a LOT to play with other people on a regular basis. There's
    a lot of intangible stuff you can't learn in a book or playing along
    with records. But it's got to be the right band.
    
    - Dave

    I'd say that if your instructor thinks you're ready for that then go
    find a band, it helps you progress a lot more then you ever realize. 
    I've grown a *lot* more in the last 2 years of playing with bands then
    I did in the previous 6 years when I didn't (4 years of screwing around
    on my own and then 2 years of taking lessons).  There is a certain
    minimum skill level which you need for most bands, but your instructors
    recommendation tells me he thinks you're there.
    
    Not only does it challenge you, but it motivates you as well.  For me
    motivation to improve is a major issue.  It doesn't have to be a formal
    band either, just people that you play with on a regular basis with
    GOALS.  Duos are fun and working with partial bands (like another
    player and a drum machine for instance) also helps!
    
    Greg

    If my instructor told me that, I'd say "Aye Aye Skipper !".
    Off you go now...  Don't let the door hitchya on the butt.
    
    Let us know when you find something.  ;)
    
    jc

    Though I'm not in a band, I often jam with friends in a band type
    environment.  I'm not totally convinced I need a band.  As a teacher,
    his primary concern was motivation and not forgetting what I've been
    taught.  He said, "I've seen it happen 90% of the time."
    
    I don't think I have that problem though.
    
    Mike

    I think a lot has to do with what you want out of it.  I think *most*
    musicians who take lessons/practice, do so in order to perform one day.
    It's hard for me to imagine playing guitar for my own personal
    enjoyment alone - if I wasn't trying to be in a band, or doing
    something similar, I probably wouldn't pick my guitar up very much.  As
    it stands now, I never "practice" ... I jam around some, occasionally
    work up a lead to a tune.  But as far as dedicating time to work on
    scales or particular runs, nope.
    
    Jamming with a band, especially one where there are 2 guitar players
    will help you a lot, I think.  You can learn from *anyone*, even if
    it's what *not* to do, ya know ?
    
    
    Scary (who'll be playin' in bars until his teeth fall out ...)

    >You can learn from *anyone*
    
    Gee, Scary - thats the nicest thing you've ever said.  ;)
    
    Anyway Mike, I still have to agree with the teacher (and Scary).
    Not only will it reinforce what you've learned at your lesson,
    you'll learn WHEN TO APPLY all that scale crap.  Experience
    will do it... 
    
    I've only taken one lesson, so I'm no expert, but I've been in a
    lot of bands.  That how I learned to play.  I think if you were to 
    listen to me play,  you'd hear a little Scary in my style, and a
    little of Bulldawg Dandrea in there too.  I've learned everything
    I know (which may not be much) from guitarists I've been in bands
    with.  The experience is priceless.  :)
    
    jc
      

    My guess is that if you have reached a certain level, your teacher is
    probably right.
    
    This is assuming you play a non-solo style (i.e. not folk-guitar, classical
    guitar, etc.)
    
    Assuming you aren't a soloist, it's hard to play in a truly musical
    context w/o playing in a band.  
    
    I came over to rock from classical piano.  What I immediately found is
    that in playing with OTHER people (particularly in rock) individual
    chops aren't nearly as important as certain skills regarding playing
    with other people: "band chops".
    
    What makes a band sound tight isn't necessarily individual skills but
    the ability to play together.
    
    It involves so many things that you wouldn't think are important until
    you do it:
    
    o The ability to follow an external time source
    
    o The ability to blend in with the band which is actually a whole
      sub-category:
    
    		- Supporting vocals
    		- Knowing when to lay back
    		- controlling your volume
    		- not stepping on other peoples parts
    
    o The ability to coordinate various dynamics (accents, rhythmic
      things, stops, etc.)
    
    o That indescribable ability to infuse a sort of synergistic energy
      into the band (hard to explain, although my guess is that anyone
      whose played in a band long enough knows exactly what I'm talking
      about).
    
    I'll risk making a controversial statement - playing electric guitar
    by yourself just isn't a terribly musical pursuit and doesn't teach
    you all the skills you need to PRODUCE something that is truly musical.
    
    Now I guess it doesn't have to be a band - I've learned a lot by
    sequencing a band (drums, bass, horns, etc), but the point is that
    I think you stagnate unless you attempt to do something that is
    "musically complete" - something that someone might want to see and/or
    listen to.
    
    I thought I was pretty good until I tried playing in a band.  Although
    we all pretty accomplished at our instruments, the band SUCKED, and
    it took a lot of time playing together, figuring things out, etc.
    to really "learn" how to play in a band.
    
    End of sermon - you're teacher is probably dead-on right.
    
    	db

    Excellent analysis, Dave!  I couldn't have said it better myself (and
    didn't).  You make many excellent points.
    
    Greg

    Yepper, I agree with Greg.  Good reply !
    
    Oh and re:
    
    >o That indescribable ability to infuse a sort of synergistic energy
    >  into the band (hard to explain, although my guess is that anyone
    >  whose played in a band long enough knows exactly what I'm talking
    >  about).
    
    How about this:  Actually becoming "the band", fusing together, as 
    opposed to being one of the folks IN the band.  To me a band ain't 
    tight until it sounds like all are as "ONE".
    
    Am I making a rat hole ??
    jc
      

I don't play frequently with othr people, but I did at one time.  A little 
from the TV show "Fame" comes to mind, with the music teacher talking to his 
student about playing the student's music:

Teacher: I you play by yourself all the time who will hear it?

Student: I will.  I have it all right here.  (referring to his vast array of 
electronic keyboards)

Teacher:  That's not music, that's masterbation.


Maybe a touch emphatic, but, I think, essentially correct.

Playing music with other people is one of the most rewarding things I've ever
done.

And Dave's point about learning to play in a band is right on.  It's very 
different from playing by yourself.


Cheers,

Will

    
    
    
    	Dave, yes, I agree with the others, outstanding reply.. my teacher
    who is pretty much my musical idol told me to get the hell out of his
    studio about a year ago and "go play with people".  It's the best
    advice he could have given, even though I felt a little abandoned at
    the time...  My miserable chops are improving at a faster rate than
    usual, I'm getting immediate feedback on my playing and tone and I'm
    learning stuff that I just wouldn't pick up in my basement, jamming
    with tapes of some of the best rhythm players in the world.
    
    	Dave, I'm struggling with volume right now and don't have a clue as
    to whether it's right or not... any tips on managing volume???  When I
    ask fellow guitar players they tend to tell me stuff like: "were you on
    ten?? if not you weren't loud enough.. haw haw haw"
    
    
    Gree Vee

>    	Dave, I'm struggling with volume right now and don't have a clue as
>    to whether it's right or not... any tips on managing volume???  When I
>    ask fellow guitar players they tend to tell me stuff like: "were you on
>    ten?? if not you weren't loud enough.. haw haw haw"
    
    There are times when I would feel like the last person on earth to
    answer that question.
    
    I feel like I'm only an expert in the problems, not the solutions.
    
    I know that in order for me to play well, I have to hear myself well
    and the sound has to be "happening" (good tone, etc.), particularly
    with guitar playing.  I don't think I'm known for being a loud keyboard
    player, but the evidence is incontrovertable that when I'm playing
    guitar I tend to play way too loud.
    
    While I can't claim to give any sage advise, I can at least share what
    my thoughts on how I'm trying to compensate for it.
    
    1) Close monitoring.
    
    I played a gig a few weeks ago where my amps (guitar and keys) were
    right behind me and basically aimed at my feet.  I still couldn't
    hear myself (because as we know highs don't disburse well), the sound
    wasn't happenning (probably because I was running the amps too loud
    and they were distorting too much particularly the keyboard amp), and
    I was drowning out our singers and our singers are too good to drown
    out.
    
    So I'm ordering an amp stand that angles the amp upward a bit -
    actually, I think I may get one of those for BOTH the keyboard rig
    and the guitar rig!
    
    2) How to set the level
    
    I've discovered that the levels you set at the soundcheck don't mean
    shit halfway thru the 1st set.   Shit just happens y'know.  One guy
    turns up, so another guy turns up, the drummer starts playing louder...
    I mean, you could just say motherhood and apple pie statements like
    "keep the volume down" but it just doesn't seem to go down that way.
    
    And by the way, the people in my band aren't your typical "I've got
    to be loud" types.  We all ENJOY being sideman and let the vocals
    carry most of the tune.
    
    I think basically, the best you can do is get everyone to "reset" at
    the beginning of each set.   However, drowning out the vocals should
    be regarded as a MORTAL SIN.  
    
    To adjust my own level the first thing I listen for is the vocals.
    If I can't hear the vocals WELL above me, I turn down immediately -
    even if I'm standing right in front of my speaker.  It's OK for the
    vocals to be a bit loud but not anything else. 
    
    Then I listen for the rest of the band - I've found that if I can hear
    myself at (VERY) slightly above what a normal mix level would be,
    that the house is probably getting the right mix.  The real lesson
    for me is that I have to give up on the idea of hearing myself apart
    from the rest of the band - you have to get used to having a monitor
    level that puts you in something that is more or less what you want
    the house to hear.  It's harder to play that way, but volume control
    is only one reason for doing it
    
    	(BTW, I'm sure not everyone would agree with this and as I said,
    	I don't consider myself an "old pro" or "good" at this.  I'm
    	basically just sharing how it comes down for me.)
    
    3) Having a sound guy
    
    I think the idea thing is to have a VERY low stage volume, and have all
    the instruments mic'ed and fed thru the PA.  My band has rarely had
    that luxury, but when we have its been great.  We put our onstage amps
    pretty low so there's not much competition from the other people on
    stage, and we let the PA guy worry about the mix.
    
    Wish it could always be that way, but we can't afford a full-time sound
    guy - we don't even own the right gear to do this.
  
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    And you know, there's a step AFTER learning to play with a band:
    learning to play with a band in a live situation (as opposed to in a
    basement).  That is a whole other thing unto itself.  I'll risk another
    controversial statement: band's can only get so "tight" rehearsing.
    My own experience has been that as a band gigs together you can't HELP
    but become much tighter at a noticeable rate.
    
    I feel like my band is going thru that now and frankly, it's pretty
    exciting to be a part of.
    
    Unfortunately, there are a bunch of things in music that can only
    be learned by doing.  The exciting part of gigging out

    BTW, I have a real problem with my Boogie.
    
    The "right" volume is typically somewhere between 0 and 2 on the
    Master Volume, but as any Boogie owner nows that's where the gain
    kicks in and the difference between .8 and .9 can be the difference
    between inaudible and ear-shattering and thus its very hard to
    set that volume and adjusting it in the middle of a song can be
    very dangerous.
    
    But the reason I'm adding another reply is that I remembered that I did
    find one thing that seems to work OK.
    
    As I said, fidgeting with the master volume is a bad idea, and I find
    that using the volume control on my guitar drastically changes the tone
    (mine is always at 10 for the best tone).
    
    What I have found that does work is a volume pedal - that doesn't seem
    to affect the tone as much and on the Boogie, it's weird but the
    docummentation says that you can run a single line TO the Volume Pedal
    (not have to run a line back) from the efx out and it works almost like
    a home stereo volume control (changes volume, not tone).
    
    Don't know if all Boogies do that, but my Mark IIB does.

    I was talking to another guitar player yesterday.  He agreed with my
    teacher, but said he's been in a band so long he has to go back to
    "woodshedding" and his scales.  He said he can pretty much "feel"
    anyone out in a band situation now, but is forget his theory.
    
    I was told to join a band so I wouldn't forget such things ;-)
    
    Well at least I've started asking around and am pursuing a band
    environment (as opposed to just jamming with friends).
    
    Mike

>    As I said, fidgeting with the master volume is a bad idea, and I find
>    that using the volume control on my guitar drastically changes the tone
>    (mine is always at 10 for the best tone).

    Dave,

    That very thing plagued me for all the years that I played in bands.
    Consequently, I think I never backed off my guitar volume as a way
    of (helping) to control my dynamics. I recently picked up a copy of
    Fender's magazine (I forget the name) and right there in this
    tech tips column (written by a Fender technician) is a rediculously
    simple modification that remedies high-end loss on guitar volume
    controls when they are set to less than full. It involves the addition
    of a cap. I recognized the circuit configuration from the brightness
    caps that are found in guitar amp preamps. I'll try to find the column
    and post the circuit diagram somewhere in this conference. It's
    something like this, but I don't remember the cap value:
    
     from PU ------
                  |
                  +----||---+
                  |         |
                  \         |
                  /         |
              vol \<--------+---
                  /
                  |
                  |
                 ---
                 ///  

    
    
    
    	I've used .001 caps run across the volume pot to try and maintain a
    little high end at low volumes, but I never noticed much of a
    difference.. Heck, I haven't got what you'd call great ears.. 

>    I was talking to another guitar player yesterday.  He agreed with my
>    teacher, but said he's been in a band so long he has to go back to
>    "woodshedding" and his scales.  He said he can pretty much "feel"
>    anyone out in a band situation now, but is forget his theory.

    I think that someone that says this is probably not using their band
    experience to it's fullest.  What you get out of any situation is
    directly related to what you put into it.  If you think about what
    you're playing and how it fits in with the theory knowledge you have,
    it seems to me that it can be used to exercise your theory knowledge
    rather then diminish it.  It just seems to me that someone that says
    playing in a band is killing their knowledge is just not taking an
    approach to music within their band which will allow them to continue
    growing.

    For myself, I find that working in a band situation actually sharpens
    my (admittedly weak) theory knowledge by giving me real life examples
    of the use (when playing covers) and ready applications of it (when
    working on originals).  The key is that you have to THINK about it
    rather just learning pieces by a memory of the pattern of notes
    involved (or by reading the music off a chart).  Everything, no matter
    how distasteful, can be used as a learning experience and I try to do
    that.

    For example, there are many people here in this notesfile who are very
    knowledgeable in the area of music theory who also play regularly in
    bands (and have for years).  I don't think you'll find them saying they
    need to quit their bands so they can keep up with their knowledge.

    I personally think that there isn't much excuse for someone losing
    their music knowledge when playing in a band.  Sure, if you don't
    practice on your own time, you'll probably lose some of your knowledge
    and maybe some of your chops (depending on the kind of music you play).
    But it's your choice to practice or not outside the band context and I
    think that saying that playing in a band is dragging your playing down
    is making a pretty lame excuse for your own lack of discipline.

    Now that may sound kind of harsh, but I'm judging myself most severely
    with that kind of statement, as I'll readily admit that I could be a
    much better player if I had the personal discipline to structure my
    time when I'm not playing with the band to include some practice and
    study time.

    Now don't get me wrong, I do believe that the path to personal growth
    is through individual study, but I don't honestly see how playing in a
    band conflicts with that provided you make it a priority and manage
    your time accordingly.  

    I guess I could see situations where someone feels a need to achieve a
    growth rate much faster then the time they have while in a particular
    band (or work) situation would allow and they feel they must dedicate
    the time necessary to make that growth. However I believe that most
    people can satisfactorily maintain their current level of knowledge and
    grow at a moderate rate while playing in most band situations at the
    same time.

    Mike, do you have any more information as to why this other guitar
    player feels he can't do this while in his current band?  I'm not
    trying to be argumentative, just curious as the thinking process he's
    going through.

    Greg 

     Hypothetical 10k ohm potentiometer on "3" equals 3k ohms.
    Any transfer of highs above 3k ohms would make them come
    through louder (kinda bypass the potentiometer).  
                  1                              1
    I(or R)= -----------      therfore   c =------------
              2(pi) f c                      2(pi) f c
    
    If we want everything over 1k Hz to start being louder
    than f=1k Hz  I(or R)=3k ohms (matches potentiometer, then higher
    frequencies shunt through with even less impedence). Using these
    values we get a capacitance of 53 x 10(-9), or 53 picofarads to
    make this happen (hope pico is correct word for exponent of 10 to
    the -9). Now whether this affects other loads in the amp circuit
    I don't know, but you could always toast marshmellows if it did.
    
    chuck

     Whoops! a 10k pot on three would be 7k ohms (the louder
    the less resistance). Answer would be 23 picofarads 
    (23 x 10 to the -9th).
    
    chuck

>    Mike, do you have any more information as to why this other guitar
>    player feels he can't do this while in his current band?  I'm not
    
    I didn't ask him about doing this in his current situation.  From
    talking to him, he has basically focused his energy on learning to play
    with others in a band environment.  He hasn't really focused on the
    theory applications of what he's doing.
    
    This guy is a classically trained pianist (started at 8 years old) turned 
    guitar player.  He knows the theory, but just needs to refresh his 
    memory on the guitar (i.e., what he's not using in the band environment).
    
    Mike

    Okay, all this talk has prompted some questions (you knew it would
    ;-)).
    
    I don't really feel confident enough in my playing to join a band, yet
    alone audition for one.  What are some good prerequisites you need to
    be a guitar player in a band?
    
    Anyone have some good advice on pursuing a band position?  Advertising
    your skills? etc.
    
    Mike

    Re a few back...Speaking about the .001uF cap across the volume
    control,I did that a few years back,and if I turn down my Strat's
    volume to about 3-5 and up the Amp volume,you can have it sounding like
    glass smashing when you hit a chord.Not that I do that,but it shows
    how much difference it makes from the standard sound!!!
    							    Big Jim.
    
    

    Greg brought up a GREAT point ... band or no band, if you don't
    practice on your own time, you won't improve.  I never practice, ever. 
    And it shows !  My band learns covers, stuff I already know (aka, "the
    cover king ...") so I don't usualy need to practice like the other guys
    in the band do.  I can devote my time to other things, but my playing
    hasn't improved in years.  I get by, but that's it.  Trust me folks, it
    pays to put yourself in challenging situations - it'll make you
    improve.
    
    
    Scary

    re .28, .29
    
    Dave, you said it! The only thing you missed out on is amp positioning.
    Being a poorboy/cheapskate, I usually find I can hear my amp a lot
    better if I dump it on top of a couple of beer crates 8^). Cheaper than
    a set of legs, and just as effective.
    
    Your point about playing out is a good one, too - my band played out
    four times in a week recently, and the increase in tightness and
    ability to play to the crowd increased every time. This is also true on
    a personal level; I have made the unusual switch recently from bass to
    lead guitar, and it's only been in the last few gigs that I have felt
    confident about my playing in front of people. 
    
    Bob

    >I don't really feel confident enough in my playing to join a band,
    >yet alone audition for one.  What are some good prerequisites you need
    >to be a guitar player in a band?
    
    > Anyone have some good advice on pursuing a band position? 
    
    Mike, it might be a good idea to have the first band be a sorta
    informal thing.  What do I mean by that?  Well, I guess it sorta like
    the typical "bunch of guys" who get together once a week to learn some
    tunes and make some noise; a band whose main goal is to play with other
    people rather than to make money or play out a lot.
    
    These bands typically play at parties for free and stuff like that, but
    I REALLY think they are a good experience if you haven't played in a
    band before.
    
    It might be a good idea to try and organize such a band on your own -
    that way you don't have to worry about auditions and stuff.  Another
    reason is that the plain truth is that it's very tough right now for
    guitarists to get gigs.   There's a lot of them out there and I think
    the quality that most bands are looking for is (unfortunately)
    experience.
    
    I think the DECjams have served real well for this kind of thing btw. I
    think a lot of people were sorta brought into (or in some cases brought
    "back" into) the band scene through DECjams (I can think of at least a
    dozen).
    
    Don't know if you live in the NE area, but if you do, I can't think of
    any better way to break into this than getting a DECjam band together. 
    It gives you both the experience of playing in a band situation and the
    experience of playing out in front of fairly large crowds.
    
    I think the main point is just to start playing with other people in
    a BAND (i.e., not "jam") situation.\
    
    	db

    
    The thing that I think is important about playing in a band is that
    you get to put your playing into a larger context. Timing and dynamics
    are the things that one nurtures best in a band setting. The
    prerequisite is that you must adjust your listening to hear the bigger
    context. If you don't, it just becomes volume wars with everybody trying
    to hear themselves better. Listen for how your part is fitting in with
    the total sound. It's not so easy. It takes practive.

    Speaking of practice, there's no substitute. Practicing alone is very
    important. Also, bands, IMO, should practive alone or nearly alone. You
    get a lot more out of sessions when you're not just trying to impress a
    small group of friends.

    Regarding the cap across the volume control:

    I found the article. First of all it's a .001 uf cap with a 150k ohm
    resistor in parallel with it. The guy says that this high-end loss when
    the volume is down from full is a problem with single coil pickups. (the
    rest of you can leave now) He claims that this fix not only preserves
    the high-end of your guitar signal but smooths out the control's taper,
    so that there are no "hot spots".

    So the diagram back a few replies was correct but needs a resistor
    across the cap. And the cap is .001 uf.
    
    That is all.

    rjb

I think DB has the right idea here.

Get into some band, an informal one, maybe start it yourself, and rehearse 
material instead of jamming.

Once you get, say, two sets together, find a party to play.  Throw it yourself 
if you have to, but get an audience.  Playing in front of an audience for the 
first time is a trial by fire, but you'll be fine if you do your homework, so
to speak.

Once you get a taste of playing in front of people and see that you really can 
do it, you'll want to do it more.

Here's a few things that have helped me out:

1. If you can find someone experienced who simply doesn't have time for a real 
band (or something like that) that would join with you, that can help.  They can
help define your role and add a little security to your "first effort."

2. Don't worry about the material being letter perfect before you perform.  The
audience almost never knows the difference.  Most of all, they'll want to see
you having fun and showing enthusiasm.

3. Have fun with it.  There'll be days when it's just plain work, but overall,
you should be looking forward to it.  If not, go play tennis or something.

4. Have fun....


Will

    I agree with Will re: getting someone who has some experience.
    I've always been the guy with the lesser amounts of experience 
    in my past bands...Scary and Steve Dandrea learned me a LOT about
    WTF goes on in a band; (eternally grateful dudes).  ;)  Watch 'em
    like a hawk.  Before you know what happened, YOU'LL be the one with
    experience...
    
    jc (Who's played his share of parties)

    I won't claim to have a lot of band experience, but I will say that
    playing parties (or some form of fun social occasion) is a good way to
    get experience.  I've done several and found that they are basically a
    fun environment to start with and for the most part, a very
    non-threatening environment to play in.
    
    I'd think that your heavy involvement with your church might offer you
    some opportunitys as far as playing in relatively non-threatening
    environments too.  They tend to have lots of social type activities...
    
    Good luck and have fun with it!  That's what it's all about.  Like Will
    said, if it's not fun, then you need to change something.
    
    Greg

    
    
    	Here's the same thing I think everyone else is saying, but with a
    minor twist my "band" hahahaha watta scream consists of me (guitar
    dude) a bass player and a singer.  We've been getting together once a
    week for a couple hours to put together songs.  THEN, Monday nights we
    all go to a local jam, find an expert guitar dude, and expert drummer
    and do a couple of our tunes..  What we get is:
    
    	a. Feels like a band but doesn't have all the trappings or
           a hoard of people.
    
    	b. We get to hear ourselves (at least those of us with adequate
           hearing do) in a "live band" situation.
    
    	c. We get to "shop around" for the other players that we want.
    
    	It turns out that a local "guitar GOD" usually makes our practices
    and we wind up getting expert playing from him when we do our stuff
    (Mostly slow blues from gary Moore's Album, Bonnie Raitt, KD Lang,
    etc.) at the jam.  This approach has turned out to be a nice "middle of
    the road" approach... that satisfies my need to do the "play with other
    humans" thang!
    
    Gree Vee King Unit

    FWIW, my limited experience with "open mike nights" would tend to say
    that these really suck!  At least in the Colorado Springs area...
    
    They seem to consist of a clique of experienced players who all know
    each other that are really only interested in jamming with each other,
    to the exclusion of anyone else.  There also seems to always be a
    contingent of "musicians" there who are very critical of anyone
    playing.
    
    The one time I played at one, it felt like they tried to embarrass me
    (and other people not in their little clique who played) by playing
    songs I didn't know.  Now admittedly, I don't know a lot of the "old
    standards", but these guys just kind of launched into songs without
    even telling me what they were going to play and then the bass player
    yelled out the changes to me.  And we're not talking about I-IV-V songs
    (which I kind of expected) either.  Needless to say, this was NOT a fun
    experience.  I don't plan on playing at any more of these jam night
    events.
    
    Perhaps my expectations were wrong, I just figured it would be kind of
    a blues jam and there wouldn't be anything to worry about, but it was
    more like "here's our set list, we're playing these songs" kind of
    thing for the "house band".  
    
    Now I realize that this is really *my* problem, and I'm not trying to
    sound bitter or anything, but since people were recommending playing
    jam nights as an idea to get experience., I just thought that I'd
    mention that the jam night things are not always fun for everyone.  My
    advice is that if you're going to play at one, go the week beforehand
    and get a feel for what kind of people you'll have to play with and
    what kind of material they do and learn it up front.
    
    This is just something to think about, your milage may vary.
    
    Greg

    Greg, it's a bummer that you (we) had that experience.  I've been
    to a bunch of "jam nights", and had never experienced anything like
    that before.  We used to go to Al's in Greenville a lot, and it was
    tres-cool.  Unlike Rack N Rolls clique of jammers.
    
    jc (I was bummed)

>    I'd think that your heavy involvement with your church might offer you
>    some opportunitys as far as playing in relatively non-threatening
>    environments too.  They tend to have lots of social type activities...
    
    Yeah my teacher and I are cool with this now.  He was just trying to
    motivate me more.  We had a long talk yesterday and he basically
    doesn't want me to waste my potential.
    
    I just have to start working a little harder and get all these
    techniques into my playing instead of just practicing them.
    
    Mike

>    Greg, it's a bummer that you (we) had that experience.  I've been
>    to a bunch of "jam nights", and had never experienced anything like
>    that before.  We used to go to Al's in Greenville a lot, and it was
>    tres-cool.  Unlike Rack N Rolls clique of jammers.
    
    I've been to three different places here in town that have them
    (Rack&Roll, LauraBelles, and The Gardens) and they were all basically
    the same.  ;^(
    
    ..but I didn't bother trying to play at the latter two.
    
    Greg (disgusted with the concept)

    
    
    
    
    
    	Whaaaaow.. yeah, I remember you telling me about that stuff Greg. 
    Really sucks.. heck the place I go to in Hallowell (yep, Hallowell,
    Maine) is loaded with Music students from the University of Maine music
    school, professional players and "jizz hacks" like me who want to be
    rock stars.  The place is friendly and fun and anyone doing any of the
    kind of "critiquing" you describe would be wet down with 33 in a hurry. 
    FInd a reason to visit our plant and I'll take you there.  ;^)
    
    
    	My main memory of starting playing their was having to pros take a
    real interest in my playing and giving me some great feedback... it
    just keeps getting better.
    
    
    Regards,
    Gree Vee King

{this was sent to me offline.  I thought it might be good to put in here}
    
    Prerequisites for joining a band:

    1.  Be able to play in tune, in time and not too loud.

    2.  Know a half dozen common tunes in the style that the band plays,
    plus "jam" tunes, so you can actually play something you *know* at the
    audition (obviously more of a problem with bands doing originals rather
    than covers....8^) ).

    How to advertise:

    1.  Skip your experience if you have none.

    2.  If you have good gear and wheels, mention it.  Lots of players out
    there who are stuck because they can't make it through a gig without
    blowing up their amp, their guitar falling apart....and then they need
    a ride all the time!

    3.  If there is a local rag musicians read, advertise in the wantads.
    Post cards in all the music stores in town.

    4.  Word of mouth to anyone you know who might know someone else, your
    teacher, music store staff, other bands, agents, you name it.

    What to DO at the audition:

    1.  Listen to the band, not yourself...are they any good?  Be critical
    now, not after three months of rehearsals.

    2.  Lay back unless you're asked to step out, don't take long solos and
    stick to what you are comfortable with.

    What NOT to do at an audition:

    1.  Talk money.
    2.  Get loaded (whether they do or not)
    3.  Decide on the spot.
    4.  Criticize the band.
    5.  Make a pass at the drummer's wife.

    I'd add to -.1: Bring a tune or two that you know well, on a cassette
    and with a copy of the chords.  If it's a common enough tune that the
    band knows it, then you get a chance to show what you can do on a 
    song you're familiar with.
    
    

    Also ... go into it as relaxed as you can.  Unless you're trying to
    audition for Whitesnake, I'd take a "good time" approach.  You be more
    likely to show your best chops then.  One BIG mistake I made at a band
    audition ('twas a metal band too ...) was to try and blister on *every*
    song - I figured that was what they were looking for.  As it turned
    out, it was a double lead type of band, and we both had our different
    styles - we worked it out and became a MEGA hot band, we both got to
    show off plenty.
    
    GO FOR IT !!!
    
    All practice and no gigging is kinda like 7 hours of foreplay and no
    ...   8^)
    
    
    Scary (who says 7-13 minutes is fine ...)

    
    Just thought I would enter a quick reply here saying that if there are 
    any new/novice guitarists out that considering taking lesson that they
    should definately go for it.
    
    After practicising(seriously) by myself for the last 7 months I finally
    figured a teacher would be the way to go....(I did have a teacher for
    1 week but it just didn't do it for me) so now I have a guy come round
    twice a week (once wasn't enough I wanted *more*) and the rest is
    history as they say...after only 3 lessons I have improved no end.
    
    The way I worked it was not to worry too much about learning scales
    etc, instead I just made sure that I had the guitar in my hands as much
    as possible and all I really concentrated on was getting my motor
    skills down pat.......after seven months of doing this and then getting
    a teacher......he can say 'do this run' or 'play this picking pattern'
    and my hands *do* it!!!! (and I never thought I'd get this thing
    sussed!)
    
    The only downside is that he says it really cheeses him off that he
    shows a newcomer how to do something that took him ages to learn
    and then he comes back 5 days later and the young bugger (me!)
    plays the particular whatever like he has been playing it for years.
    :*)
    
    The other advantage is that if the guy is worth his salt you may be
    able to learn some stuff other than that which you had set your heart
    on......I mean I was really into playing Gilmour leads, but now I am
    having just a whole bunch of fun  playing some stuff he calls
    'bluegrass' (although I have to admit that using the pick and my
    fingers on my right hand together requires *immense* concentration)
    Also although I don't like listening to C&W it is such a giggle to
    play...........those plucked bends and the fast runs are a riot!
    
    Anyway if you are thinking about getting a teacher my advice is to go
    do it. I obviously have a guy who I 'clicked' with and after only my
    second attempt. So don't be afraid to shop around......it's your money!
    
    J.

>    The only downside is that he says it really cheeses him off that he
>    shows a newcomer how to do something that took him ages to learn
>    and then he comes back 5 days later and the young bugger (me!)
>    plays the particular whatever like he has been playing it for years.
    
    I can understand that.
    
    I once gave lessons to a kid who had been doing things on his own
    for a few months.  The first thing he wanted to learn was "Dust In the
    Wind" which involves some moderately advanced Travis picking.
    
    I told him this was really a ridiculous thing for a virtual beginner to
    try and learn but he insisted that I at least show it to him.
    
    The next week, he came back and had it down pretty well.
    
    He turned out to be one of these kids who just loves to play and he
    had spent over 6 hours a day 'shedding on it.
    
    I think I said "What Next?  Yngwie?"
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Your advice about getting a teacher who you "click" with is good
         but beware of teachers who put pleasing the student ahead of
         learning the instrument.  
    
    	 Hard to usefully explain what that means but if you don't end
    	 up making progress even if you do what the teacher tells you
    	 to do, you may have such a teacher.
    
    	 However, if you don't make progress because you don't practice...
         that's a different problem, not (necessarily) with the teacher.

    
    
    Yeh I agree with your last statements, but I think you will *know* that
    you are learning things and improving...this is why I didn't stick with
    the first chap.
    
    re. Prodigies.....yeh but I haven't told I am praticing on average
    about 7 hrs a day.........but he didn't ask either.
    
    J (with stiff fingers!!!!!)
    

    If you're practicing that long (7 hours/day) I truly pray that you
    are warming up properly.
    
    There's a host of problems that playing that much makes you prone to
    and for which there are things you can do to reduce the risk:
    tendonitus, carpal tunnel syndrome, repetitive motion syndrome, etc.
    
    Your fingers should NOT be stiff and you may be leaving yourself open
    for problems.  

    
    
    Thats why I asked about hand problems a while back....my practice time
    has literally trebled in the last couple of weeks......
    
    How do you reduce the risk of sodding your hand up? Should I go and 
    see the quack for a check up (Hi Doc, is there anything wrong with my
    hand?)
    
    Its not a painfull stiff, more like a good workout stiff.
    
    J

    
    Addendum to .-1 
    
    When I say stiff they are not difficult to move...more like they feel
    full???? Imagine Tom's hand in a Tom and Jerry cartoon where it swells
    up (without the pain!) or the line in Comfortably Numb 'My hands feels
    just like two ballons' in my case its just my left hand.
    
    I am fortunate to have my girlie give me a professional massage after
    my practice sessions.....(just the hand and forearm!) so maybe that
    will help.
    
    Any words of wisdom?
    
    J (oh yeh, I have noticed my joints are a little more 'cracky' than
    they used to be)
    

re: warmup etc.


	Be sure to do *gentle* hand stretches before you pick up  the guitar. Also
take a 10 minute break each hour. Also, if you are having trouble with a particular
passage don't keep working on it till the point of pain, relax and work on something else.

	After practice apply *ICE*to the affected parts. I usually soak my left hand
in ice water. It helps to get more blood flowing to the affected parts. 

	This information comes from Richard Norris, who I met with to discuss my
hand problems. See back issues of GP  mag for more info.


	

re: 7 hours of practice

	IMHO,  you should do something besides practice all the time... 

	Enjoy life....

    
    re. .61
    
    I doubt that soaking your hand in cold water gets more blood to the affected
    area, more like reduces the swelling.

re: .-1


	Seem to me that if you put your hand in cold water, the body responds by sending more
	blood to the 'cold' part to warm it up. If you've been using your hands, they're they
	affected part, right? 

	The net result is more blood to the hands, where you wanted it. 

	It is *not* simply to reduce the swelling.. 

    
    
    
    	There's blood in my hands???   How the hell did it get there??

    Well, one thing you probably should do is don't practice that much.
    
    You should build up to that level.  If you feel compelled to spend
    that much time on music you might want to consider spending less
    time playing the guitar and using what's left-over to do OTHER
    musical pursuits like learning to read, theory, or just
    copping/charting tunes from records (which is less stress on the
    hands than out and out playing).
    
    It goes like this: if it hurts, stop doing whatever makes it hurt.
    The pain is your body telling you something is wrong.
    
    "No pain, no gain" does NOT apply here.
    
    However, there are things that can help increase the amount of time
    you play and reduce the tendency to pain afterwards.
    
    There are really lots of good books/videos that address warmups and
    such but here are a few things I can type quickly.
    
    You want to accomplish two things before you start to play: you want to
    stretch and loosen the muscles of the hands, and you want to get your
    hands "warm" (which means get good blood flow going).
    
    So here are a few things you can do:
    
    1) Before playing, gently stretch/flex your fingers.   I find that when I
       start out I can only stretch them so far and I can easily notice
       the difference after I've stretched them about 5 times.  I keep
       doing this until they feel pretty loose and don't seem to be getting
       loser: in ideal situations (like in the summer), this is about
       10 reps
    
    2) If your hands are cold (like anytime BUT the middle of summer) get 
       them warm (in your  pockets, under the tap with hot water, blowing
       on them, whatever) before you play.  You'll never see me bitch
       about places that have hot air dryers instead of paper towels
       in the men's room.  For winter gigs, my hands are usually rigid
       after moving the stuff in from the vans and it's really nice to
       find one of those in the men's room.  Hot water is cool, but
       sometimes I find that it either causes a burning sensation on
       VERY cold hands, or that it "softens" the skin more than you'd
       like.
    
    3) Chromatic scales are widely regarded to be the best way to warm-up
       both in terms of getting your hands ready, and IMO for getting
       other elements of playing together like your timing, picking, etc.
    
       I ALWAYS do what's called the 4-finger exercise.  Basically I might
       start at the first fret and play  F,F#,G,G# on the low E, and then
       move up to the A string and play the same finger pattern, then
       the D string, and so on.  When I hit the high E string, I just do
       it in reverse (descendening notes, and going back down to the E
       string).
    
       Once I've gone up and down the strings, I call that one rep and then
       I just do the whole thing again one fret up, and then up another
       fret, and then at some point I start going down a fret.
    
       The main idea of moving up the frets is to reduce the monotony and
       it also serves as a method of "counting" the reps.  I start at the
       first box, go up to the 12th box, then back down to the 1st box
       and by then I'm usually quite warm.
    
       This also REALLY helps your picking.
    
       BTW when you're doing this you WILL find that a hand will REAL
       tense and start to cramp.  When that happens STOP - and shake that
       hand out a bit.    It's caused by a buildup of acids given off by
       the muscles.
    
       For some people it's their fretting hand that tenses, for others
       (like me) it's the picking hand.  
    
       which reminds me
    
    4) The key to good playing and avoiding problems is RELAXED hands and
       arms.   If they're not relaxed, you get cramps and if you keep
       playing you can be subject to an injury (forgot what it's called)
       that will keep you from playing your best for MONTHS!
    
       When you are practicing something, and you find your hands cramping
       up - STOP, shake it out, and then try it again.  One common cause
       for this is that you are playing it TOO FAST, which MAY be slower
       than the piece is supposed to be played, but faster than YOUR hands
       are currently capable of.
    
       In short, do NOT practice with tensed hands.  You'll learn "wrong"
       and it leaves you open to problems.
    
    God, there's a zillion other things I could tell you to do but it would
    take too long to type them.   You're instructor oughta be able to
    show you a few things.
    
    ANd like I said, there ARE books and videos that cover this (Steve
    Morse's tapes for example), but obviously people tend to buy tapes
    to play great licks and don't think much about these things so it
    may be a little hard to find.
    

    
    
    Thanks for the great suggestions....I have been working on relaxing
    my hands whilst I play recently (I was surprised at how difficult it
    was!) and I am now starting to get the hang of it....its amazing how
    little effort you actually need to use when doing runs etc.
    
    I do stop when my hand cramps....and I do shake it (whilst saying
    things like ow!) but I wouldn't say that I was pushing them....I have
    a feeling that the odd feeling in my hands is them 'getting fit' as
    I said I wouldn't say that I was pushing them too hard.
    
    You get problems with your picking hand? Strange, either I'm am not
    gonna have that problem....or I haven't got anywhere near that fast
    yet......I suspect the latter :-(
    
    Once again thanks for the advice.....oh yeh and to the dude who wrote
    about doing something else and enjoying life......I am enjoying life
    but I can't help feeling that I will enjoy it a lot more when I can
    wail to my hearts content on my guitar....besides I am 23 and I figure
    I should have started at 10....so I have a lot of ground to make up!
    
    J :-)

    
    
    re: -.1 "life"
    
    To each his own. IMHO, life is too short to spend all of it with
    my guitar..
    
    -T

    re: J
    
    I know what you're going through.  I also started playing (seriously)
    when I was 22 and felt (and still feel) WAY behind on things.  I played
    every day, typically between 2 and 8 hours from 1982-1986 with no
    formal training.  I remember *many* times falling asleep with my Strat
    in my hands and having to put it up after waking up in the middle of
    the night.  
    
    As you found, it improved my coordination a lot, but I still played
    pretty lame stuff because I had no idea what I was doing.  At that
    point, I wanted to do more with it (then just sit at my house and jam
    away on a blues scale).  I don't know why it took me so long, I would
    have been much better off if 1) I'd gotten instruction much earlier,
    and 2) I'd played WITH OTHER PEOPLE on a regular basis during that
    time.
    
    I'll admit that I screwed up, and here I am, 30 and loving music, but
    still can't play for beans and don't really know much about what I'm
    doing.  I regret what's happened, but there's nothing I can do about it
    now.
    
    BTW, even though I played a lot, my hands never gave me problems (until
    recentely, but I don't know how much of that's related to playing).
    Probably a big reason for that is that I was totally undisciplined and
    if my hands started hurting I'd just stop playing.  I had no goals, so
    it was easy to just put the thing down.  
    
    I did have some stiffness/soreness about three years back after not
    playing much for awhile and then starting a fairly rigorous practice
    schedule.  This went away when I started doing careful warmup exercises
    and stretching before I started playing.
    
    Greg
                                            

    RE: practicing long hours...
    
    I went through a period of 4-5 years where I was practicing 4-6 hours
    a day. Maybe someone already mentioned this, but one thing that helped
    me a lot was practicing in 1 or 2 hour segments, ie. an hour early in
    the morning, few hours in the afternoon, then a few hours late at
    night. Do this as much as your schedule will allow. If you do
    anything for 7 hours at a stretch, you're bound to get diminishing
    returns. You just can't stay at attention and focused that long.
    
    Do warmup exercises, do different activities - scales, theory,
    recording, improvisation, using parts of songs as exercises,
    ear training, etc, etc.
    
    There was a recent guitar player column on practicing that had
    a few good tips. One was keeping a practice log,
    setting some realistic goals and writing them down, then picking
    one and working on it. A goal might be something as specific
    as learning the lead to a particular song or could be more general.
    
    Bob

>    There was a recent guitar player column on practicing that had
>    a few good tips. One was keeping a practice log,
>    setting some realistic goals and writing them down, then picking
>    one and working on it.
    
    That's Rik Emmetts(sp) "Back To Basics" column in the May issue of
    Guitar Player.  I just read that myself last night.  Very good advice
    IMO.  Motivational for someone like me.
    
    Greg (getting a practice log...)

    
    Hey Greg thanks for the feedback.....but I do have a question.....
    
    You said that you worked your butt off when you were 22, practicing loads
    etc........so how do you rate yourself now? I mean you spent all that
    time praticing you must be pretty good yeh? No? Why not?
    
    As an aside, I was listening to Pink Floyd last night, in particular 
    the track 'Young Lust' from 'The Wall', howcum everybody talks about
    Eric Johnson or Clapton etc. The guitar on young lust just totally
    blows me away.......can any of you guys play like that? I'd give
    my left nut to even come close.
    
    Oh and I only praticed for 1 1/2 hours last night, I took the missus
    out for a few drinks.........so I think I am set for another months
    continual practice now ;-)
    
    J

        Check out  `Delicate  Sound  of  Thunder'  the  video.  David
        Gilmour is a  hot guitarist.  (IMHO) One particular tune that
        comes to mind is `One of These Days'.  
        
        Matt

    
    Yeh I have seen the video....and to be honest, Dave's playing is very
    good where he is playing, but it sort of well known that he has trouble
    with his vocals, so to help out I guess, a lot of the guitar work is 
    done by a backing guitarist........who is also just awesome, infact I
    couldn't hardly tell who was playing what solo.
    
    So the moral is that you don't have to as good a Dave Gilmour, just as
    good as his backing guitarist!! :-(
    
    J

>    Hey Greg thanks for the feedback.....but I do have a question.....
 
    No problem!  I figured maybe you'd like to hear about someone that
    started around the same time you did and is still into it.  Also
    thought you might like to hear about a bad example...
       
>    You said that you worked your butt off when you were 22, practicing loads
>    etc........so how do you rate yourself now? I mean you spent all that
>    time praticing you must be pretty good yeh? No? Why not?
    
    I didn't say I worked my butt off back then, I said I *played* a lot,
    not that I *practiced* a lot.  There's a vast difference.  I did
    nothing to further my playing such as learning about music, or even
    learning songs, I just sat around and jammed on the thing (with no
    backing instruments).  Even though I played a lot, you can easily see
    how this did very little to improve my playing.
    
    I rate myself as a mediocre guitar player now.  If I'd practiced like
    you are for all this time, I'd probably be fairly accomplished, but I
    didn't.  Definately my loss...
    
    Greg