Conference napalm::guitar

    
    	Oh well, here goes 'ol sour puss again....
    
    Personally, I think most of the music store owners are complete
    jerks!
    
    	Yes, I too have walked into (and out of) a store WITHOUT SO
    MUCH AS A 'HELLO' from the so called "salesman" that work there.
    That's absolutely the worst behavior possible for a business that's
    in *SALES*, period, as a means of survival.
    
    Guess if you dont "speak up" about how you're going to spend at
    least a $Grand$, right then and there, they're just not interested...
    
    	It's obvious by the magnitude of the prices on all things, both
    new and used, that most store owners really dont give a GGD about
    the community of musicians they supposedly serve; all they care about
    is making as much money as possible. Although I'm sure there are
    exceptions (maybe in Boston or Quincy), I say "Business as usual
    in New England".
    
    You dealt with it the *best* way possible. Just leave and never
    come back. That way, that store will simply serve up it's own end.
    
    	Joe Jas    

    
    I made that mistake once at daddy's.  i wanted to check out a floor
    type effects box, but I forgot to bring my guitar. So, they say
    "what kind of guitar do you use" "Jackson" "Oh, we can't let you
    play one of those" the daddy's salesperson replies "it's too nice".
    So, they give me a used Guild strat type with a broken high e string.
    So, they say "what kind of amp do you usually use" "Marshall"  "well,
    they're too loud and we only let interested customers use them,
    how bout if we set you up with this peavey?" At that point I handed
    the crappy strat back to him and said "listen, I *am* an interested
    buyer, or at least I was. I'm not going to have any idea how this
    box sounds with my set up because you've given me a totally foreign
    situation to hear it in." I left.
    
    I can see their point, they don't want every 15 year old dreamer
    coming in and playing their jacksons thru their marshalls and beating
    on them, etc etc, but lets be real here.
    
    Buck

    
    	I have never really run into that problem as a matter of fact
    I went to Fitchburg music and was interested in buying a pa head.
    I had never been there before, the owner asked me if I wanted to
    try it out thru any systems. Well I picked out the speakers I wanted
    to here it thru and everything. I tried it out for about twenty
    minutes along with using the best guitar set up they had. I have
    never seen anyone go out of the way like they did. I ended up buying
    it for the price I wanted. I had researched the prices and new what
    they had paid for it, so I made the offer cash and bingo...
    
    	Now that was my first and last time I've ever been there so
    I can't say the place is great but they took care of me. 
    
    		Brian... p.s. Daddy's is a JOKE!!! PERIOD!!!!

    I guess everybody's got some sort of horror story that fits this
    category, here's mine.
    
    I was in a music store not too long ago looking at one of the Roland
    sequencers.   The unit went for around $1500.  No small chunk of
    change.  I had finally cornered the only salesman in the place that
    could actually run the thing and was learning how to lay down tracks.
    I put down a little "song" of about *10 measures*, and was planning
    to do three or four tracks to see how easy/difficult it was to edit.
    After the first track, the manager sauntered by and told me to "do
    one or two tracks and make them one or two measures long.  We don't
    have time to walk you through the whole process".   He paid for
    his mistake.  I had a fairly large amount of cash with me, as I
    fully intended to buy it on the spot.   I showed him the cash and
    told him  what I thought and walked.  Wurlitzer had it cheaper anyway...
    
    I've also been in stores where, when you ask to try a guitar, the
    salesman sits down and PLAYS THE THING FOR YOU!!  Then, when they
    finally let you get your hands on it, they sit .003 microns away
    and watch everything you do.   Gag.   Sometimes I'd rather shop
    for a used car, at least you get a test drive.
    
    
    T.

    Bill,
    
    One thing I've noticed is that your treatment at these places
    depends a lot on your looks.
    
    That is, not whether you look like Robert Redford or not, but rather
    whether or not you look like some kid ogling at stuff he'll never
    be able to afford, or a successful pro (at music or otherwise) who
    has bucks to spend.
    
    I'm not saying this is right.  It's just the way it is, and it's
    the way it's gonna be.   I'm the ultimate pragmatist.  I work with
    the situation, not against it.
    
    I get great treatment at Daddy's cause I consciously try to sound
    like I know what I'm looking for, what it does, how much it should
    go for, and like I got the money.  I also try not to do much "browsing"
    there.   I go other places for that.  I'd like them to think that
    I walk in there mainly to spend money.
    
    	db

    RE: .6  I agree about the treatment according to looks.  I was not
    dressed nice when I was abused in this store, and have noticed this
    before.  But then again, musicians aren't known for dressing in suits &
    what.  I've gone to car lots and looked at rather expensive cars
    dressed exactly the same and I was mobbed by salesman (vultures). 
    
    I suppose that I didn't respond correctly, as I continued my test and
    didn't show my resentment at the time.  If I had it to do over again,
    when he took the guitar away, I would say "I've seem more than enough
    already" and walk. 
    
    I had considered writing a letter to the real manager or owner of the
    store to complain.  Do you think this would do anything other than make
    me feel a little better? 
    
    Incidentally, because someone asked, the store was "ProSound" in Colorado
    Springs. 
    
    I appreciate the sympathy and knowing that I'm not the only one this
    happens to.  This kind of crap is why I prefer to shop in smaller
    stores, even though they have much less selection.  They seem to be
    much more tolerant and accommodating. 
        
    Greg

    What is your advice for those of us that are note ax experts? Ive
    found that the second that you ask any kind of question that you
    immediatly cut yourself off from test driving the ax that you wanted.
    I,ve been playing for a while bue when it comes to the tech. end
    of equipment I,m a total novice. Last week at DADDYS while trying
    to
     purchase a 1500.00 ax I asked question about a pre-amp and after
    a 1/2 answere the salesman told me that "no we dont let anyone demo
    that ax. Do these people actually expect me to spend 1500 without
    a demo? Was asking a question a bad move? If so is there a better
    way to get some of my tech. questions answered?
    
    any help or comments would be appreciated. STILL TRYING TO LEARN
    THE MUSIC STORE "RULES"!
    

    There are a few keyboard vendors that have similar attitudes; 
    "Sure, *we* will demonstrate it for you..." No way, jack.
    
    If I was serious (read: cash in pocket) about a new piece of gear
    and the salesdroid refused to let me play it, I'd go see the manager
    and politely explain the situation. If the answer was still 'no',
    I'd flash the cash and ask one more time. If it was *still* 'no'
    it's time to find a new store.
    
    I can't imagine a $1500 guitar is such a hot mover that they can
    afford to lose a potential buyer.
    
    There's one music store that gets no more of my not insignificant
    business because they wouldn't let me hack around for a few minutes.
    The store down the street gets all of it. They know who I am and
    allow me to play around if it doesn't interfere with the other
    customer's demos.
                  
    I appreciate a store's concern for wanting to keep the expensive toys
    outta the hands of anyone who walks in off the street, but continued
    adherence to that policy after a serious interest to drop some
    big bux on an axe is foolish.
                          
    Edd

    RE .8
    
     You know I'll tell you something. These guys are soooooo afraid
    that someone will put one tiny-tiny scratch on the back or front
    of the guitar that they are totally gun-shy about anyone playing
    any guitar over $700.! OK maybe they have a reason, BUT when someone
    seriously wants to buy a guitar and has the $1500. in the pocket
    ready to deal, these jerks blow it! I used to go to most of the
    music shops in N.Y.C. (especially 47th or 49th street)  and get the
    same treatment! If you weren't holding a $1000. bill in your hand,
    nobody would pay attention, or help you when buying a guitar. I
    even saw the guys from the group "America" walk out of this one store 
    because they didn't like the attitude. It was GREAT! You should
    have seen the owner run out of the store to talk them into going
    back into the store again. I agree with almost all the comments made 
    in this note, however I also think that it's the attitude of the buyer 
    too! OK... you go into Da**y's and say, "I want to check out that 
    Jackson", (just as an example). The salesman says, "are you going to
    buy", you hit right back at him and say, "maybe.... do you *WANT*
    to sell it?" Have the attitude that you'll buy if you like the guitar 
    and if the price is right! DON'T LET THEM INTIMIDATE YOU!!!!! I went 
    into Da**y's, two years ago and asked to try an amp. The salesman
    asked me to keep the volume low so as not to disturb the other people. 
    There weren't more than two other people in the store!!! I couldn't 
    believe it! I asked him how I was going to try out a "100 watt" set-up 
    without cranking it! He said, "you don't I guess", I handed him the 
    guitar and walked right then and there, but before I left I said, 
    "you just lost a sale and I want you to know that!". BTW...... I said 
    it more than loud enough for everybody to hear too! The other salesmen 
    just looked at *him*! I felt good about it. I have a friend that owns 
    a small music store in Hampton Bays, N.Y. and he has a sound room to 
    try everything out! You want to buy a 100 watts half stack? No
    problem, roll it into the room and crank it up! More music stores
    should have that policy. If the owners don't feel that the equipment 
    can't take that kind up punishment, then maybe they're selling the
    wrong equipment.
                       
    Fred-who-doesn't-get-pushed-around-by-salesmen-too-big-for-their-pants!
         Send most of them back to school so they can learn how to be polite
         to the shopping/buying public. Especially when there are some
         who "really want to buy"!
                       
    P.S. I went back to that store 6 months ago and that salesman wasn't!
         I hope they didn't make him a Manager!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   ;^)
                                   

    When I was shopping for an amp I ran into the same thing. I found
    that differant saleman in the same store had differant policies.
    For instance, in Wurlitzers, I told the salesman (I think it was
    Fitzy) that I play an ES345. He pulled a brand new one off the rack
    and let me demo several amps with it. On another occasion, I asked
    to use one to demo another amp, and another salesman refused to
    let me touch a new Gibson unless I was considering buying it. He
    handed me an Ibanez hollow body which didn't cut it. I told him
    I couldn't evaluate the amp with that guitar, and he suggested I
    bring my own guitar into the shop. I told him that when I was ready
    to buy, I would see Fitzy, because I like his attitude better. He
    obviously didn't like my comment, but too bad. Money talks, and
    BS walks. I have also found that differant salesman in Wurly quote
    differant prices for the same gear. I told one salesman that I
    liked Fitzy's price quotes better. He tried to play dumb by saying
    "Gee, I didn't realize that we were selling that for $xxx. It must
    be a sale price this week only". Yeh right, they're only interested
    in their commision.
    
    I have found that in some of the smaller stores like McDuff's or
    Billy Lees, they are always willing to let me try any guitar in
    the store (except for a few that Billy Lee has that are not for
    sale). Only problem is that the smaller stores don't have the 
    selection that Wurly has. I have found that Wurlitzers can either
    be a great store to shop in, or it can be a real bad shopping
    experience, depending who is working that day, and who waits on
    you. One guy in Wurly's has a good attitude, and seems like a nice
    guy, but he is incompetant. Eddy Fitz is both competant and decent
    to deal with. 
    
    	Keep in mind, they get a lot of A-holes in there 
    everyday. I was in the store once, and some punks started a fire
    right behind the building, and almost burned the place down. These
    same punks had just been asked to leave the store for creating a
    nuisance. I have often thought it would be kinda nice to work for
    a music store, than I walk into one, and listen to some idiot
    in the corner with a cranked Marshall. I think to myself, how
    can these saleman stand to listen to this day after day, and
    put up with the attitudes and intelligence of these idiots all
    the time. I would wager that the average music store customer
    is not the thoughtful, sensitive person that you would hope. Many
    are just head bashers looking to trash a music store, and pilfer
    whatever they can pocket.
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    
    
                       
    

    
    	I can honestly say that I've had problems with every music store
    	I've set foot in since 1965, which is why I usually buy mail
    	order.
    
    	I always "flash the cash" first, then tell them what I want,
    	and how much I'm willing to pay for it. If they can't or wont
    	do business - I walk. I try and be as informed as possible because
    	the salespeople ALWAYS try and sell me something I don't want
    	or don't need. I always quote a few specs OR tell them I've
    	heard one before and THAT IS WHAT I WANT.
    
    	This approach works in the Framingham area stores.
    
    	Guy Novello
    

    I make it a habit of looking `raddy' when I'm shopping for something
    expensive...instruments, electronics, automobiles.  If the store
    and sales people are willing to deal with me, then they'll likely
    get my business.  If they deal with me initially the way I am, they
    will probably deliver better service in the future.
    
    If a store won't give me the time of day, or won't let me handle
    something I'm interested in, or won't talk to me at all, I usually 
    wait an appropriate period and say `I want to see the manager, NOW!'.
    I usually get this panicked look and a 'Why, what's the matter?'
    `Why, what's the matter?'  `I'll tell the manager'
    
    When the manager/owner gets there (I wait patiently), I put my AMEX
    card on the table.  I ask the owner if they know what it is.  They
    usually do.  I then put it away.  I then have the owner repeat after
    me `The customer is ALWAYS right'.  Once said, I explain how the
    owner's staff has been rude, negligent, etc and have the owner
    apologize.  If the owner apologizes, then I consider doing business
    with the shop - they've learned their lesson.  If they don't, I
    walk.
    
    Usually works.  It worked at ProSound.  And, I've overheard some
    of the owners' lectures to staffs after I've done my business.
    
    BobW

    That's a valid approach, but I personally just take the tact of doing
    things that'll cause them to pay attention to me.  It doesn't bother me
    if they don't pay attention to someone who doesn't go to that trouble.
    
    In summary, what you have to do is make them believe you're ready
    to buy.
    
    Some tips:
    
    	1) There are some people who walk into music stores on a weekly
    	   basis and NEVER buy anything.  I make a point of only doing
    	   regular visits to stores that KNOW *I* *BUY*.
    
    	2) Talk like your planning a major purchase.  This not only
    	   gets attention, it gets good prices too.  Yesterday I negotiated
    	   for a high-end synth, a high-end sampler, a 16 channel mixer,
    	   and a few smaller items.  I got good prices on most, and
    	   a "too good to refuse" price on the sampler.
    
    	3) Sound like you've been planning getting this for sometime.
    	   I usually walk to the salesman DIRECTLY after coming into
    	   the door and say "I'm interested in trying that....".
    
    	   Someone who walks in, casually saunters thru the stock,
    	   stares at one particular guitar for awhile and then asks
    	   well... you can bet they don't think you're gonna buy it.
    
    	   Most people don't buy $1500 guitars they just happen to
    	   notice while they stopped by.
    
    Only once have I had a problem getting attended, and the next day
    the VP of the store knew about it.  (I wasn't just ignored, I was
    rudely ignored, i.e. I asked the salesman a question and he just
    looked at me, and continued talking with his friend.)
    
    There are a few more things I do, but this msg is already long enough.
    
    	db

	I recently purchased a Boogie amp. I was offered a chance to try 
	it out in the store, but instead I took another route that worked
	quite well. This particular store (Daddies) has a reputation
	for being a pain for trying things out in the store, although
	I usually have good luck if I really know what I want.

	I had heard Boogies a few times before and knew that it has the sound
	I wanted, but I wasn't confident enough about whether 50watts was 
	enough to get above a large band. A few more bucks for the 100 watt
	version, but they didn't have one in stock. I wanted to see how 
	it miked into a PA, and also wanted some time to play with the knobs,
	and feel out some of the various sounds.
	
	Anyway, I didn't even touch the thing in the store.  Instead I
	insisted that they give me a STORE BACKED WRITTEN UNCONDITIONAL 	
	WARRANTY FOR 5 DAYS, plunked down my plastic, and carted it home.
	
	There only apprehension they had was that I might be trying to get a 
	cheap rental. My honest face, and the glint on my gold visa
	assured them of my sincerity. The same guy that sold the unit to me
	had shown hesitation previously when I was 'browsing' for 'nother
	guitar. But even he bought this new 'try it at home' approach.
	Maybe he was just hungry for a commission.

	In any case, I was able to spend the weekend giving it a good tryout,
	at ANY VOLUME I desired, WITHOUT the distraction of 20 teeneyboppers
	and the store manager lookin over my shoulder. I was even able to
	give it a good workout at a band rehersal, which enabled me to
	see how it sounded with various guitars and miked to the PA.

	It worked out good for me, AND for the store since I kept it.
	I'm not sure, but the story might have been a bit different if
	I acutally had tried to return it for a refund.  But then again 
	I have a good lawyer, and the short warranty statement on my 
	receipt would be considered a binding legal contract.

	Now I suspect for this to work hassle free, you should be about 
	95% sure that you won't be returning it. They probably wouldn't do it
	with a guitar, but they probably would with any other piece of
	expensive equipment.

	Its worth a shot!

Rick

    ProSound is not my favorite place to do business at (I do love to
    listen to some of the explainations that they give to thier customers
    though, I'm surprized that they don't sell snake oil right up front).
    I've found, that since I've spent just over $1,000, there this year,
    that they are quite nice to me lately, but, I do recall that 6 years
    ago I bought my Porta-Studio from them, and within 6 months, I'd
    been regulated back into the position of the average 'blow-em-off'
    customer in the store. I agree that talking to the manager is helpful.
    In Colorado Springs, however, there ain't too many other shops with
    quality equipment in them that you can do side by side comparisons
    in. Life I guess. There were quite a few better shops in Hollywood
    (Calif), but they usually had a salesperson stick around while you
    tried things (I guess they realised that you might be some movie
    star's kid & that you might pop for 10 grand worth of equipment
    if they just treated you nice). I guess we need to pin a $100.00
    bill to our shirts before we walk in, so that they have some idea
    that maybe we came to thier shops prepared.
    
    								Jens 

>>I bought my Porta-Studio from them, and within 6 months, I'd
>>been regulated back into the position of the average 'blow-em-off'
>>customer in the store.

Isn't that the case!  Same thing has happened to me three
or four times.  For a while you get great treatment, then you've
passed the purchace timeout period and you can kiss off any
"extras." This occurs whether you wander in often or just come in
when buying (or seriously thinking of it). 

I think it has a lot to do with ProSound turnaround (sounds like
a jingle).  I just (month � ago) bought a Mesa Mk III with 4x12
mesa cabinet - not your everyday $3.00 string purchase. Walked in
there yesterday to look at a sequencer (seriously considering
purchase) and I didn't recognize *anyone* and they didn't
recognize me - thus crappy treatment and I left. 

steve 

    	I have had both good and bad experiences at Prosound. Most of
    the problems came from sales personnel who made me feel as if it
    was a big inconvenience that I had interrupted a BS session with
    his friend. I quickly informed Walter, the manager at the time,
    that his sales person was basically ignoring me and if he did not
    want my business, I had no problem taking my money to another
    music store and giving him some free advertising as well. The 
    sales person no longer works at Prosound.
    	My purchase may have only been for a few hundred dollars but
    I insist on being treated like a customer regardless of the cash
    value of my purchase. It is hard earned money to me. I have a 
    long standing policy when buying musical equipment from an outlet,
    I don't try, I don't buy.
    	I do NOT dress up to go to a music store to spend MY money.
    
    
    DonH

    Yesterday I went to Hollywood to check out new stuff, namely the
    ART Multiverb and the Roland JC amps.  Talk about pulling teeth.
    
    First of all, I wanted to do an A-B comparison of the GK and the
    JC.  No can do.  The new shipments of JCs just came in.  They're
    in the back.  You want me to get you one???  Yeah, I want to compare
    them.  Are you looking to buy one?  No, I'm doing this for my health.
    Then somebody came in and wanted to buy a stomp box, and the guy
    left me.  
    
    Then I ask the accessories guy if he has a multiverb.  Yeah, there's
    one in the back.  You wanna buy it?  I wanna hear it first.  It
    sounds killer.  I wanna hear it first.  It's in the back, you want
    me to get it?  Are you ready to buy it today?   Never mind....
    
    I also found out that I get much better service in the guitars and
    accessories when I dress all scungy, and I do better in Keyboards
    and Recording when I go straight from work and wear a tie.

    
    	Out of (STARSHIP) Enterprise House turn left up High Holborn
    	for about 250 yards and I'm in Heaven Love affairs with Andrex
    	an that !!!
    
    	Denmark street. about half a dozen guitar stores within 
    	spitting distance of each other and a couple more round the
    	corner !
    
	I often walk up this road to customers of mine and I'm the odd
    	one out in suit and tie. Everybody else is a Bon Jovi or
    	Def Leopard clone, including the "sales persons" who spend their
    	time practicing Heavy Metal poses and diving their whammy bars
    	on axes with nakes women spray painted on them !
    
    	But when you *do* walk in the shop they are *very helpful*
    	they put down their guit' which folds into immediate feedback
    	when its leant against the cranked 16 x 12 650 watt stack they've
    	been twiddling with waiting for a customer (probably already
    	deaf) to walk in. 
    
    	Darwin, **** Neandetarl or jetock man I'VE found the missing
    	link !
    
    	To be serious, I spent 4-5 hours in these shops about 18 months
    	ago intending to buy my first guitar and amp, asking LOTS of
    	questions knowing and understanding very little. Even getting
    	the guys in the shops to demo the sounds for me. They were a
    	little disapointed when I didn't want the guitar with the headstock
    	that looked as though I could maim someone with one glancing
    	blow PERMENANTLY ! and even more disapointed when I didn't want
    	to buy that ultimate mega distortion feedback pedal.
    
    	Eventually I found a Fender flame for a couple of hundred quid
    	in the SOHO Sound House (in the CBS building.) and bought my
    	Yamaha G100-210 second hand from Andy's.
    
    	A jaundiced view perhaps but I did get the help and attension
    	I wanted with only 400 quid to spend.
    
    	Graham ...

    Probably the competition of having so many shops near each other
    forces them to be more considerate of their customers.  Seems like
    the ones that treat you the worst are the ones that think they have
    a corner on the market and you should kiss their butt because they
    do.  I'd LOVE to visit that area.
    
    Thanks to everyone who replied!  I appreciate the sympathy and the
    tips for helping avoid this in the future.  It makes me feel a lot
    better knowing that it's not just me that this happens to.
    
    gh

	
    	I've never had any problems with what you've been mentioning
    	at the only real music store in my area - Pillsbury Music
    	in Pittston, Maine.  Though they have basically a corner on
    	the market (within about 25 miles), they've always been
    	very considerate toward me and have even let me try $2000 
    	Steinberger guitars without any problems, even though I
    	don't have the money to buy one right now and probably
    	won't for some time.  They're also very good about prices,
    	etc.  Now, I go there for any work, etc. I need done
    	everytime.
    
    	They've also developed a great deal of loyal customers because
    	of their policies and good service, which is pretty nice.
    	Even though they have a corner on the market, they still
    	realize the value of good service.
    						Tom

    Prosound on Academy?  The ones known to be the highest priced and
    most obnoxious in town?
    
    Try Colorado Springs Music,  ask for Mike, if he's still there.
    Don't be turned off by all the pianos.  They've been real good to
    me in the past anyway (I now live in Phoenix).
    
    Scott

    re: .22 Yeah but don't have your axe worked on at Pillsibury....trust
    me.
    
    Also their prices are on the high side of high...
    
    dbII