Conference napalm::guitar

	Too bad for Fender!!! It only took them 13-15 years to figure out
what to do next. :^)
	I've tried several rackmount/pedal distortion devices and nothing
replaces a cranked amp for that overdriven sound.  The most promising foot
pedal I've heard is the Ibanez Tube Screamer. Everything else is "Square
wave city". Twins are typically clean amp's,in order to get a "ballsy"
sound out of them you would have to modify the internals extensively.....
	
	You would be better off to find another amp to go along with your
twin,something smaller like a Deluxe reverb/Bandmaster/Super Reverb which
can be overdriven at a lower volume.(even though these amp's are pretty loud) 
Even a Marshall 50 watt combo would be a nice addition. Has anybody
    heard the new Carvin amp? 	
	It's really a matter of taste,and what you hear......

							Rick

    I also have a Fender Twin.  Mine has the pull-out distortion/master
    volume switch, which makes a big difference in the available punch.
    
    Instead of using foot pedals, I had a friend install a preamp in
    my guitar.  When switched in, the Twin fairly screams.  The best
    part is that it's the twin's own over-driven sound, not something
    generated by a distortion pedal.  
    
    Kevin
     

    Mine has the pull out master volume/distortion, too, but let's
    face it, the distortion in these amps is pretty silly sounding.
    It is either on or off, period. You have no adjustment at all.
    It effects both channels so there is no way to switch it on and 
    off without pushing the knob back in by hand. 
    
    If you haven't heard the new Twin, check it out. If money were
    no object I would have taken it home right there on the spot.
    Then again if money were no object......!!!!
    
    I think I am going to keep looking at small amps until I find one
    with a real good overdriven sound that I can buy for less than
    $200. I don't need channel switching, since I have a Morley pan
    pedal which will allow me to switch back and fourth from my Twin.
    I also don't need chorus, and could probably do without reverb,
    since I would mainly use the amp to get the one sound. A line out
    would be nice, so I wouldn't have to tie up a mike, but the line
    out signal would have to sound good through a PA where many do not.
                                                 
    The new Twin is a part of a new line of tube amps from Fender which
    includes "The Twin", the "Dual Showman" which is a stack version of
    the twin, but with no reverb, and a "Champ". All 3 amps are
    available in your choice of 5 colors including black,grey,white,
    snakeskin, and red.All feature blackface, black grille, with a com-
    plimentary color for the knobs (ie; the black version features red
    knobs). I'll have to find out how much the Champ sells for, but
    I am sceptical about it being reasonably priced considering how
    much they are getting for the Twin.
    
    As far as the Ibanez Tube screamer, I haven't heard one, but I tried
    out something called a Tube Driver and wasn't too impressed with
    it.
    
    
    							Mark Jacques
    

    
    Re: -1                                   
    
    The new Champs are selling for around $250-300, a lot of bucks for
    a 12 watter, but then tube amps are a lot more  expensive to build
    than solid-state (which is why all your cheaper amps are transistor).
    
    A good amp for  an overdrive amp would be an old Princeton, they
    can be had with or without reverb for about $200 and pack about
    20 watts into a 10".
    
    The Princeton was George Thorogood's *stage* amp for years.  Also
    you might note that the earliest Mesa amps were actually hot-rodded
    Princetons (or so the story goes) until Randall Smith decided it
    was cheaper to build his own chassis.  
    
    Princetons are still very popular as studio amps.
    
    The guitarist in my band currently uses a Deluxe and a Tube Screamer
    pedal but is looking for a Princeton for overdrive.  He tried a
    tweed Champ but it didn't carry well (and we play in a very small barroom)
    and also was *too* distorted for his taste.
    
    

Another vote for the tube screamer/fender combination.

I picked up a used tube screamer (in an astoundingly *ugly* green color)
for $40 a month or so back.

It helped, but I still hated my old amp.

Then I found a '74 Fender Quad in barely-used condition for $275.

The boy is happy now,
Dave

    The tube screamer is great..you've all heard them it's what Stevie
    Ray Vaughn uses....
    
    RE: fender getting it's act together..I bought a studio lead years
    ago...it's great hs good distortion and even an old tube head like
    me bought it...it's solid state! Most, or at least a number of the
    guitarists I know wouldn't touch a fender amp as they have this
    stereotype of the original twin sound in their heads...wake up they
    changed years ago...they made a great amp 7 or 8 years ago I think
    it was called the lead 50 (or was it Fender 75? or 100?) a tube amp that
    screamed!                                   
    
    but then it's fashionable to dump on Fender just like it's
    fashionable to dump on Peavey...
    
    dave_three_fender_guitars_and_one_fender_amp

    A nice ballsy little Fender that they discontinued a few years ago
    was the Super Champ.  It had 1 10" speaker, and packed a bit more
    wallop than the current Champ 12 (18w out of a 6V6 pair).  This amp
    was like a good Princeton but more flexible.  You could get a lot
    of sounds out of it, including that "stack" crunch and that old
    blackface type overdrive.  Might be a good deal if you find one
    used.
    
    The story I heard on Boogies was that they were packed into Princeton
    cabs, but the circuitry was copied from the late 50's tweed Bassman
    amps.  This is the same circuit that original Marshall amps were
    based on.  Tweed Bassman's are now expensive and hard to find.
    
    /rick

    Re: .7        
    
    Just wanted to second that opinion on the Super Champ.  I have one that
    I bought new a few years ago to fill my need for a compact,
    easy-to-carry-and-pack-into-the-trunk guitar amp for small jam
    sessions, and also to serve as a harmonica amp/monitor.  It wasn't
    cheap, however -- I think it was about $350 with the EV speaker -- but
    the idea was that it suited my needs.  (Obviously, for a few more bucks
    I could have bought a Pro Reverb or a Concert, but that wasn't what I
    needed at the time.) 
    
    Anyway, it does get a surprisingly big sound for its power/speaker
    size, but to make it even more useful I had a friend modify it by
    installing a speaker jack in place of the fixed-wire arrangement.
    Its sound is *real* impressive coming out of a 2-12'' speaker
    enclosure!  The friend who performed the operation had already done
    so on his Super Champ, which he'd bought used for about $250.  His
    had a different speaker, though -- I think it was an Altec -- and
    had a warmer sound.  Since I own two Fender 2-12 enclosures, we had 
    a great time jamming with our Champ stacks!  (With an adaptor, of
    course, you can run the sound through the 10'' speaker as well as the
    external cab for a crisper high-end response.)
    
    My friend sold his for about $200, I think, which is probably about par
    for a used one now.  He sold it only because he bought a second Boogie
    -- the Studio 22, which I also have.  I've kept my Super Champ not only
    because it makes a handy extra amp when other guitarists stop by, but
    also because it's useful for harmonica. When I play harp, I find that I
    absolutely *must* hear myself *well*, so onstage I either mike the
    Champ to the PA or use the lineout.  This allows me better control
    without reaming out anyone's ears (through feedback or otherwise). And
    just for kicks (as if the Astatic harp mike isn't hot enough for that
    blues sound!!), I can switch into the overdrive channel for extra
    crunch. 
     
    So if you're looking for a small but gutsy amp in the $200 range (rough
    guess-timate), I'd highly recommend a used Super Champ. I've never
    seen/heard the current version -- Champ 12 -- and have to wonder why it
    would pack less wallop.  Anyone know what the difference is, besides
    speaker size? 
     

    The Champ 12 is rated at 12 watts from a single 6L6 power tube.
    It has some nice features like a headphone output and an input for
    mixing in pre-recorded sources (for playing along with your stereo)
    but to my ears it doesn't have the same bite as the Super Champ.
    The Super Champ is supposedly N.Y. guitarist Robert Quine's favorite
    amp.

    From me (tubehead) to youse (tubeheadses):
    
    I've got a couple-o-different amps, and I generally swear by tubes.
    However, my lead guitarist recently purchased some new-fangled cutting
    edge head called a MARSHALL MOSFET LEAD 100.  It's red.  It's really
    red.  But, believe it or not, it's not the color that impressed
    me so much as the sound.  The highs were crispy, bright, vibrant and
    colorful - just like the head itself.  100W in such a small package
    - that's enough to make the red stuff flow out of your ruptured
    eardrums.  And when he told me what he paid for it, all I could
    see was red!
    
    ok, it sounded great.  But I couldn't help but notice the color.
    Did you ever notice that tube amps always come in nice subdued
    earthtones like black?  Could this possibly affect the sound?
    Do tubes represent the Dark Side of the Force?  The Moon?
    Is the dark chassis designed to absorb cosmic energy which is
    then realeased in the form of a cool tune?  Are brightly-colored
    amps simply cosmic reflectors, capable only of reproducing whatever
    gnarly cosmic scratch is fed to them?  If you could take a dark
    tube amp and a bright ss amp and put them together in a lightbulb,
    would they spin around like those stupid little things they sell
    at Spencer Gifts?  Would they spin around at all?
    
    Ok, sorry about all that.  What I meant to say was that you tubeheads
    otter check out this MAARSHALL MOSFET LEAD 100 - it sounds pretty
    good.
    
    Jon
    

    I am soliciting opinions on an amp I demo'd, as well as other
    amps that I should check out in the $300 range. I demo'd a 
    Peavey Studio Chorus 70 a while back. This is Peavey's answer
    to a GK ML250 (I think that's the correct model). It has stereo
    chorus with two separate 35w power amps and 2 8" speakers. It
    has two channels clean/dist with channel switching, 2 (or 3, I
    forget) effects sends, and 2 XLR line outs. Union Music is 
    asking around 320 but I would guess I could pick one up for
    around 299 or so. Obviously it's not a tube amp, but both the
    dist and clean sounds are great. I have heard GK ML250's and
    this amp is very comparable for about $150.oo less. This amp
    is about the same size as an ML250, and only weighs about 30 lb.
    I think this amp is actually more versitile than a GK ML250, as
    it will do more than just the heavey metal crunch.
    
    	I have a twin reverb, and am looking for another amp to use
    for a multitude of purposes including practice, recording, and
    on-stage as an overdrive amp. The line outs on this amp make it
    easy to connect to a PA without tying up mikes. I have heard a
    GK ML250 through a PA and they sound just as good through the 
    PA as they do through their 8" speakers. I would imagine the
    Studio Chorus 70 also sounds good through a PA. 
    
    	So what does anyone think about this amp. PLEASE no comments
    like "Peavey is low-end beginner trash". I would prefer to hear
    from people who have heard the amp with an open mind.
    
    	Any other amps comparable to this, or with some other unique
    features that I should check out. Something with a little more
    "Snob appeal" would be nice but price/performance comes first
    in my book.
    
    
    							Thanks
    							Mark J.
    

    The Roland JC-55 and JC-77 amps are nice. I think they have a
    nicer sounding chorus than the Peaveys. However, their distortion
    sounds a little cheesey and they are somewhat more expensive
    than the Peaveys ($375 for the JC-55 and $475 for the JC-77).
    Billy Lee's (where else) has them in stock.
    
    -Dave

	Well.... The Gk amp you refer to is the 250ML is a 50 watts in stereo
solidstate amp. To compare a 35 watt amp to a 50 watt wouldn't be fair. This
particular Gk amp was never intended to be used live with out a speaker cab.
	This was a recommendation that I heard from the local GK salesman. As
other people like WJ Buckley and myself can testify to GK's are sensitive and
will not take road abuse,however they are versatile amps for certain applica-
tions. If you look around in the used market you may find one for around $250
to $300. If all you want is an "overdrive sound" the Gk has internal pot's or
volume controls which control distortion etc. This is all done in the preamp
section. So the question I have is...Why buy another amp when you can just buy
the the preamp section? Gk sells a Stereo preamp that has all the features of
a 250ml plus noise reduction/variable chorus and reverb etc. and then you just
plug it into your twin. Isn't the twin more than enough to carry around without
getting even more dead weight.


						What do you think?

						And no mention of Peavey

						Pretty good huh!!!

						:^)

							Rick

    I haven't seen the Peavey, but I have seen the GK, and the one problem
    that I have with it are that the chorus and distortion are in/out
    with no level setting. I know it's been mentioned before that there
    is some way to adjust the levels internally, but this isn't very
    convenient for live performing. Maybe that's not a problem for you,
    or maybe the Peavey has variable levels, but it's something to think
    about.
    
    - Ram

    
    Your right, a twin is a lot of weight to lug around. About 80 lb.
    worth. If I buy another amp, I would like one smaller that I could
    carry from one room to another, carry to rehersals, leave the twin
    home for rehersals. When it comes to playing out what is another
    30 lb. to carry around. Especially this small of a package.
                                                            
    
    Actually my priority is a great overdrive sound as appossed to a
    great chorus sound as I already have 2 means of providing stereo
    chorus. One is a Boss CE1 (almost an antique but sounds good), and
    the other is my Alesis Midiverb II which has a bank of 10 different
    chorus sounds in stereo. I have tried several different overdrive 
    units and haven't heard anything comparable to a good amp with crunchy
    sound built-in. Also, having a complete amp (as appossed to just a 
    preamp or amp head with no speakers) affords me the convenience of 
    having a practice  amp, two or three distinct sounds that I can switch 
    on the fly, as well as a spare, in case I ever have a mishap with one 
    amp during a gig or rehersal.
    
    I won't argue that Roland Jazz/chorus amps sound great. One of the best
    clean sounding amps out there. But if they don't have a good overdrive
    sound, they are not gonna meet my needs. The Twin provides all the
    clean sound I need.
    
    A lot of folks have recommended Fender Super champs and other models
    of Fender amps, but the way I feel is that I already have one Fender
    amp, and would like something different for my next amp.
    
    Are there any small Marshall amps in this price range that have
    a good sound. I seem to recall that the cheapest Marshall combo
    worth looking into was around $450. That's more than I care to spend.
    I won't even ask if Mesa Boogie has anything in this price range.
    
    
    I could always sell my Twin, take an additional 300 and get something
    like a Small Mesa, Marshall, or other comparable amps, but I am
    Kind of attached to my Twin.
    
    Any other suggestions. I am in no hurry, and probably won't buy
    anything until after Xmas. That gives me plenty of time to demo
    anythink out there.
    
    							Mark J.
    
     

    Get a boogie and you'll get all kinds of clean, edge and distortion
    sounds in one amp.  (Can't do stereo chorus with just one boogie
    though.)
    
    There are some limitations in switching between these sounds on
    Boogies.  This has been greatly improved in the Mark III but it
    will cost you much more than what we're talking.
    
    Boogies is coming out with a new amp that has got 4 preamps, each
    wired differently.  This amp seems almost like an overreaction to
    the common criticisms of Boogies that you can get LOTS of great
    sounds, but you can't switch quickly between them while playing.
    
    This new quad amp will probably have an even wider range of sounds,
    with considerably more flexibility.  Can't wait to look at one.
    But doubt I will be able to afford one.
    
    	db

    Re. 14 The new Gk Preamp has variable echo/reverb chorus etc. They
    even brought the overdrive pots to the outside of the amp so you
    could adjust distortion. This was a shortcoming of the 250ml though
    I wonder if the pot's could be installed? The other complaint was
    noisey effects,which they corrected with an adjustable noise gate.
    
    							Rick
    

    
    Re: GK
    
    Gee, Rick I'm surprised that a GK salesman would say the little
    250ML is inadequate for live use...after all they certainly advertise
    otherwise, and I have seen one fusion guitarist playing one pretty
    loud in a night club.  Although for *projection* it would make sense
    to use a separate cab for real high volumes.
    
    This thing about GK roadability...I have heard this before and it
    certainly has put me off from buying a GK bass head.  I am somewhat
    doubtful that such a small high power amp can really run reliably,
    i.e. heat, etc.  I know that Walter Woods ( a real high end bass
    head) gets around some of the heat problem by using a switching power
    supply.
                                                  
    This is getting off the subject of Twins, but I know Stevie K likes
    his GK, what's the story, anyway???  My Traynor has never broken
    down, but a GK sounds better and is a *lot* smaller.
    
    
    

    	The key word here is "projection" and I can only speak for guitar
amps even though there are many similiarities in the design of the bass
to the guitar model. It's a fact that a 6 inch speaker is not going to
move as much air than a 12 inch.

Re. Brian
 
	 Boy what a blunder on my part using "live",sorry!!!

	My choice of words were perhaps misleading thanks for bringing it to
my attention as I was not refering to a small club situation whereas it
would probably be adequate. This is in reference to the 250ml not there
separate guitar/bass head. In a medium to large "live" situation the 250ml
would need a cab,would be more of an accurate statement. It seems to be an
application sensitive package and like a lot companies they advertise to sell
not to educate the user.

    My cousin has been using a GK 250ml to play out 3-5 gigs per week
    now for almost a year and hasn't had any problems with it. He only
    uses the speakers in the amp, no external cab. He points it right
    at himself, and sends it through the PA. He can hear himself through
    the amp, as well as through the monitor. Eveyone else can hear him
    through the PA & monitor. For practice and rehersals it is more amp than
    he could ever need. I have been considering buying one but can't
    afford to spend $450 without selling my Twin which I don't want to
    do. I guess I will have to demo the GK preamp mentioned in this
    note. I tried out the rock modules, a Rocktron Multiplex, a Chandler
    Tube Driver, and several other effects and small amps, but so far
    I haven't seen anything that struck me as overly impressive for
    a reasonable price. The rock modules, and Rocktron Multiplex are
    all about $350 and up, which to me is a lot when I think that I can
    get a whole amp, speakers and all, with a hot sound for that much.
                                                                      
    	I thought the Rocktron Multiplex was neat. It has a compressor,
    distortion, chorus, and comes in a nice rack mount package. biggest
    complaint is the price, almost $400.oo. Also, it is pretty well
    geared to playing metal. I like the distortion and compression,
    but can't see spending money on a chorus that I don't need. I would
    hesitate to buy the Scholz Rock modules, as I have read that they
    are best suited for recording rather than use with an amp. Also
    the Rock Modules are expensive.
    
    	Yeh I'm fussy, but I am in no hurry, and enjoy going into 
    Music stores to check out new equipment anyway's. Eventually
    I will make up my mind what I want and then I will make my move.
    Usually when I buy musical equipment, I hold on to it for a long
    time. I bought my Twin new 10 years ago and have no intention of
    selling it. Whatever I buy, I will probably have it for years to
    come. Some people change their guitar or amp more often than I 
    change my socks, but I don't believe in that. You lose too much
    money on something if you keep buying and selling, especially
    if you try to trade it in.
    
    
    	How much money for a GK preamp ? Is it in a rackmount package?
    Who sells GK besides Wurlitzers.
    
    							Mark
                                          
               
    
    

    Re: .15
    
    From the way you talk about your twin, I doubt that you'll decide
    to trade it in.  But I'll throw in my $.02 worth anyway.
    
    Judging from the criteria you've established, I don't think you'll
    accomplish your goals by trading for a Boogie or other (comparable)
    amp.  That is, even if you decided that a Boogie better suited your
    onstage needs, you'd still be looking for something more portable
    for a secondary, rehearsal amp.  Considering the price range you
    stated, that'll be tough.
    
    The Boogie might be more compact, but that sucker is HEAVY, assuming
    it's in the same power range as the Twin.  Don't know offhand what the
    weight is, but I'm sure someone out there does [db?]. Also, the clean
    sound of the Boogie may not be as desirable to you--not because of the
    amp, but because of the speaker. This is purely a matter of personal
    taste, but I'd have to say that as much as I love my own Boogie, I
    think it sounds better for many playing styles when I run it through a
    Fender cab. It's not a question of two speakers versus one, but a
    matter of tonal/frequency response (/projection?). 
    
    I'm no electronics whiz, as you can probably tell, but I do know what 
    I like to hear. And this is where the personal taste comes in: The
    Boogie's speaker seems to be stronger in midrange than the Fender's,
    and although the graphic EQ is a major advantage, it still sounds
    better to me through the Fender.  (Must be my blues/R&B background
    showing through--I like that warm sound.) 
     
    If you're thinking of a Mesa Studio 22 as a "small" Boogie, then you're
    on the right track in terms of portability.  It's real lightweight and
    offers an incredible sound for only 22 watts. I think it's the perfect
    carry-around/rehearsal/small-gig amp. But it runs about $650 with GEQ
    (and you'll *want* GEQ).  And if you've traded your Twin in order to
    buy it, you'll probably want more power for onstage performance--just a
    guess, as I don't know the particulars of what you're into. 
    
    The bottom line: Compare side by side before writing off the Twin,
    and keep looking at such alternatives as small Marshalls, GK, Roland,
    and *even Peavey*!  [Poor Peavey really takes a beating in this
    conference.] %^) 
    

>    Don't know offhand what the weight is, but I'm sure someone out there 
>    does [db?]
    
    Well, my Boogie weighs about 78 lbs but mine has a wood cabinet
    which is adds a lot of weight over the ones with Tolex cabinet.
    I also put an EV driver in there that's significantly heavier
    than the standard Mesa Boogie Black Shadow driver.
    
    Boogies are generally heavy amps for their SIZE but NOT for their
    OUTPUT.  Boogies are LOUD amps.  My 60 watt Mark II with 1 driver
    can put out a lot more sound than my 120 Roland Jazz Chorus with
    2 drivers.  (The JC will stay cleaner longer however.)
    
    	    Note though that Boogies are not known for having 
   	    wide or even dispersion.  They don't function quite 
    	    as well as monitors.
    
    Someone said it was unfair to compare amps with different output
    ratings.  It's not really true.  Tube amps are generally much louder
    than solid state amps of the same ratings.

    	db

    By the time I buy another amp, I'll probably have a few more bucks
    saved up and will probably be able to swing about $400. 
    
    I have been considering possibly looking into a Marshall amp to
    satisfy my distorted sound requirements. There are two possibilities
    that I have in mind. One is to buy a small Marshall combo, if I can find
    one that I like. The second is to buy a 50w head, and use it with
    my Fender Cabinet. I have an old Fender Dual Showman Cab. It is not 
    completely original, since I had to restore it after rescuing it from 
    it's previous owner. This cab can accomadate 2 12" or 15" inch
    speakers. As a matter of fact, I could probably squeeze 4 10's in if 
    I wanted to. The second alternative would be more expensive, as a Head
    and 2 (or more speakers) would probably run me well over $500. Buying a
    Marshall combo would probably be the best choice since it would
    be small and could produce nice distortion at low volume levels. 
    I checked out a Marshall 50 watt combo at Wurlitzers. I liked it.
    It was about $450. It is a little too big to be called a practice
    amp. It's about the same size and weight as my Twin. The salesman
    at Wurliters claimed that Marshall doesn't make anything smaller
    or less expensive than that worth looking at. He claimed that all
    the amps below that model were transistorized and didn't have the 
    Marshall sound. Is he right. Does Marshall make a combo (tube amp) 
    less than 50 watts ? Which models should I consider ?
    
                                               	Mark J.               
    
                                                

    Re: .23
    
    Marshall makes a couple of amps under the 50WT power rating, but
    the salesman is slightly correct in his assumptions of the sound.
    There is a 30WT solid state model, a 30WT hybrid (S.S. preamp, tube
    output stage) which is *ok* but is kinda limited tonaly in the 
    distortion mode (ie - has one tone knob controlling tone!), and
    they have the 12WT heads from the micro stacks, which, again are
    ok but need some beefing up to be real cool. 
    
    In the 50WT line, they have a 2 x 12 model which might be the one
    you looked at. Its about the size of a twin and is real heavy, but
    they also have 1 x 12 50WT combo's which are lighter, smaller and
    sound nice. Have you checked out the jubilee 50/25 1 x 12 combo
    yet???
    
    Also, I believe they have a tube amp in the 15WT range (I think
    its called the studio 15), don't know how it sounds yet. I think
    the jubilee series is the most flexible thing Marshall has going.
    
    wjb

    
    I checked out a Jubilee Stack that sounded great at moderate to
    loud vol levels. The sound seemed to pulse out of the amp. the
    distortion sound was really warm. I loved the sound of it but
    2 things would prevent me from buying it. One was size. The other
    was the price. I am assuming I can crank the volume down and still
    get a nice gritty sound, but that pulsing sound only comes from
    moving lots of air. Just guessing I think it was over 1k. The salesman
    at Wurly said they make a combo version of it, but I think we're
    still talking well over $600 or so. A 50/25w single 12" combo like
    this would be perfect for what I am looking for if I can find one
    at the right price. I have plenty of time to look. I'm not planning
    to buy anything until after christmas.
    
    	As far as Mesa Boogie is concerned, I love Boogies. Almost every
    one I've ever heard using a Boogie sounded great. My only complaint
    is that for the price, I believe I can buy two good amps. To me,
    this has two benifits. In stead of expecting one amp to provide
    a good clean sound as well as a good distortion sound, I believe
    I could have the best of both worlds by using my Twin and a Marshall.
    The other benifit is that I would have 2 amps, and if one amp suddenly
    were to malfunction at a gig or rehearsal, I would not be up shit
    creek without a paddle. This happened to me once. I had my speakers
    mounted in a separate cab in stead of in the Twin cab. The cord
    leading from the amp to the cab failed. I ended up using our harmonica
    players Ampeg Gemini II, through the PA for the rest of the set.
    Had it been anything serious, I would have been in big trouble.
    
    						Mark J.
    
    	-still searching for the perfect happy medium between clean
    and dirt-
    
    
    
    

re.  22  What?

	I wouldn't compare a 50 wt tube amp to a 50 watt solid state
amp there are too many variables to deal with. And this would be an un-
fair comparision! Unless you can control these variables and most music
stores are not prepared to do so,you wouldn't get a fair comparision.
re.  25
	There are always plenty of Marshalls for sale in the Want ad
advertiser and I've seen a couple of them for around $400. However be 
careful there are some real dog's out there. The new stuff I've
heard is ok,but I like the sound of the older amp's. Less buzz and
more natural? overdrive and distortion. I would imagine the new stuff
is also more reliable and consistent with better manufacturing and parts
available today. But it's what you hear that is important. Marshalls are
sensitive amps or at least use to be and can not take the abuse a Fender
can and power tube replacement needs to be consistent.(my experiance) Or
is this true with any amp you use for a distorted/overdrive sound. I consider-
ed buying a Combo at one point for space saving and weight reason's among 
others.
       Boogies are expensive...a Fender and a Marshall is a good combo
    for a clean and dirt sound I have found.
							Rick
	

    If you want both good clean and dirty sounds in one amp, I can suggest
    the Seymour Duncan Convertible. I have one, and I'm quite happy with
    it, although it is not cheap and definitely not the amp for everybody.
    The thing that I like about it is that it is really two amps in one.
    There are two completely separate pre-amps, and you can set them up any
    way you want from a sound ranging from the cleanest Roland to the
    heaviest-metal distortion. You can get warm tube distortion,
    solid-state distortion, and even hybrid distortion of any kind you can
    imagine. You just have to be willing to take the time to set it up the
    way you want it. 
    
    I have mine set up with a Boogie-like sound on one channel and a
    Fender-like sound on the other. I generally use the "hot" channel
    for lead, and the "clean" channel for rhythm (foot switchable).

    This is not a packaged deal with a well-known sound. You have to
    experiment to get what you want out of it. But one of the nice things
    is that they are constantly developing new modules for it, so if
    you want to change your sound you can do so without making a major
    investment in a new amp. You can even keep your old sound around
    by just changing modules, and you don't have to carry multiple amps
    around.
    
    This is just a suggestion, and it doesn't solve the problem of having
    a spare amp when one blows. But if you want to see them I know that
    Wurlitzer's and Hamel Music in Chelmsford carry them.

    - Ram

    	I had a look at a Want ADvertiser and there are at least 6
    Marshalls for sale this issue,some 50 watt some 100 watt. At least
    2 of them were combo's one for under $400 and another around $600.
    
    
    							Rick
    

    I have that issue. There is also a 50 watt combo for $375 that looks
    interesting. Also someone from Shrewsbury is selling a Fender Super
    Champ. He is asking $275, but the deal includes an ext. speaker cab.
    I am not planning to buy anything until after the holidays, but
    I would like to check out a Jubilee combo. I think the one with
    the single 12" speaker and 50/25 watts will suit my needs best.
    Anyone know what model fits this description and what the average
    selling price is for this unit ? I was looking at a 50 watt combo
    with 2 12" speakers (not a Jubilee though) for $450, so the Jubilee
    with single 12" speaker should be less than $450, I would hope.
                                   
    
    Also what is a sidewinder speaker ? Who makes it ? Does Marshall
    still use Celestian speakers in their amps ?
    
    

    Re: .29
    
    Marshall still uses Celestion spks exclusively in all their amps
    and combo's.
    
    The Sidewinder is Marshall's answer to the JBL E Series. Its got
    a 150WT rating. It's LOUD (severe transients!) and pretty clean,
    but with an edge.

    re .29
    
    Better double check that Super Champ ad; I thought it meant that
    you got an "extra" speaker with it, not a whole cab.
    
    The 50/25 Jubilee with 1 12" goes for $700 to $800 locally; I've
    also seen it available by mail order from N.J. for $650, probably
    the best price you'll find.  I've tried one though and its a very
    nice amp.  Very Fender in the clean mode, and a great singing lead
    tone.  I think it's the best distorting amp for single coil pickups
    I've heard.
    
    /rick

    
    Is the 50/25 Jubilee a tube or transistor amp?
    If it's tube, is it the same as buying a 50 watt
    Marshall head??
    
    frank
    

    Re: .32
    
    The Jubilee Series are all valves.
    I don't think it's the same as buying a 50WT head cuz Marshall have
    updated to a more contemporary amp design ala Boogie.

    I stopped into Wurlitzers last night. I checked out a Jubilee combo
    and found out for the single 12 Jubilee combo, they are getting
    about $700. The amp doesn't even have channel switching. I checked
    out another combo, with the gold front. I think it was a model 2210.
    This has chanel switching, 50w, single 12" Celestion, and sounded
    real nice. The price on this one was closer to $800. This seems
    like a lot of money for a 50 watt amp with one 12" speaker, but
    compared to the price of a Boogie, I guess it's not that far off
    base. Now that I think of it, when I bought my Twin Reverb, in 1978
    they were listing for $930.oo. I paid $650. They had other Marshall
    amps with Channel switching, but they were not all tube, they were
    either Mos-Fet, or Hybrid. They just don't get the same tube sound
    as the all tube amps. I guess if I'm gonna buy Marshall it'll have 
    to be used. The saleman gave me one of Marshall's old catalogues,
    which contains their lead and Bass amps. I was surprised how many
    different models of amps Marshall makes. This catalogue listed 
    about 20 or more differant models, and only scrathes the surface.
    It didn't contain the Jubille series, or the mini or micro stacks.
    They must make over 30 different models of amps. 
    
    	Good thing it doesn't cost anything to look. If it did, I would
    be broke by now. 
    
    							Mark Jacques
    
    

    Yeah, I get confused by all the flavors of Marshall as well.  Anyone
    who knows care to comment on these?
    
    Original Lead  -  Looks like traditional no frills design, two
    channels, one bright, no switching.  I suppose you have to crank
    it up pretty loud to get it to sing.
    
    Master Volume  -  I've heard a lot of bad things about Marshall
    master volume controls; are the new ones any better?
    
    Channel Switching  -  Normal and boost channel, each with it's own
    set of controls (I think).  Seems like it would be more flexible
    than the Boogie design, which shares some controls between channels.

    Jubilee  -  One set of tone controls shared between normal and
    overdrive mode.  The output stage can also be switched between
    higher power pentode (50) and lower power triode (25) operation
    a la Boogie's Simul-class.  This is the only one of the new Marshalls
    I've tried, and I liked it.  How does it compare to the normal channel
    switching amps?

    /rick

    	Like someone said elsewhere tube amp's are more expensive due
to manufacturing cost's. The cost of labor to put one of these babys
together has increased over the years even though we have progressed
to using pc boards instead of the standoff and eyelet wafers. 

Here's some history to help explain models,keep in mind it's just an over-
view and I'm sure theres lot's more......

	Original Lead- these are the amp's you see people like Hendrix 
used, 1962-1975 They came standard with El34's for power tubes even though
your early 60's had 6l6's(or 5881's) and a rectifier tube. The early 60's
amps were very similiar to the old 4 10 tweed bassman's. Later they developed
a 45 watt head which became the 50 watt head eventually. The 50 watt head
had a smaller cabinet until 1970 when Marshall introduced the 100 watt head
and made one cabinet to fit all. Today Marshall claims there design has not
changed from the 70's and claim that there amp's have improved due to component
technology and manufacturing.

	Master Volume- These amp's were started in 1975 to provide distortion 
at a lower volume for playing in small club's.In this time period Marshall
decide to change power tubes to 6550's because of reliability problems. The
tonal characteristics were so drastic that people started looking for "old
marshalls" The power tube change did solve or improve the problem for a while,
but problem's still persisted. 

	Channel Switching- I'm not totally familiar with any history even 
though I have a friend who has one of these amp's,which I've played on and was
very impressed with. Nice amp! 

	Jubillee- I've spent a short amount of time playing on one with one
speaker(12"). I need more time with it to be able to critique this new flavor
of Marshall. It was definately compact and impressive looking.


	In 1972 a 50 watt head went for $400 and a stack was just over $1000
and today in the Want ADvertiser some one is trying to sell a stack for $3500
if I remember correctly. Wow!
	I have made side by side comparisons of old to old and can acurately 
say that I have never heard 2 (old) Marshalls sound the same. I've been told
that this could be due to power supply tolerances which could be as much as
20%.
	I have compared old to the newer models and have found a difference 
in volume and tone. I prefered the older marshall's to the new one. I like
the sound from an EL34 over a 6550.For some reason the older one had a warmer 
sound.
	Like I have said before there are tradeoffs for achieving what you
want soundwise. I would prefer not to have to make tradeoff's but I do. 
	Some of these tradeoff's are power tube replacement,and care in 
transporting. Amp designers back in the 60's and 70's were trying to get
tube amps to sound clean and then everyone wanted distortion. So we had a
design which was going to be used for a different application than intended.
Components back then were not as well manufactured as they are today. Are
the new Marshall's more reliable? probably... 

							Rick

    The original subject of this note was my delight over the new Twin
    Reverb, which I believe rivals the Mesa Boogies, and Marshall amps.
    If anyone questions this go try one. In my original note I said
    that if money were no object I would've bought the new Twin on the
    spot. I then set out to find a smaller (reasonably priced) amp to
    provide a nice distortion sound. The more I looked, the more I 
    became willing to spend, until I got to the point where I am now
    prepared to spend about $450. I am now at the point where I am
    looking at $700.oo Marshall Combo's. For a little more money, I
    can buy the new Twin (not that I have the money to spend).
    
    Looks like I have a lot more looking to do, and will probably be 
    looking at used amps. 
    
    By the way, last night I was in Wurlitzers and they have a new Twin
    on display with snakeskin covering. The look definately sets it
    apart from other amps in appearence. Add to that the amazing sound
    capabilities and you have one hot amp on your hands. If you haven't
    checked out this amp, you should definately check one out. I believe
    that it is only a matter of time before some of the big names in
    music catch on and start using these amps.
    
    
    In regard to the Seymour Duncan convertable amps. I have one concern
    about the amp. I am scared of one thing on these amps. Whenever
    you have a "plug in" type of assembly you run the risks of wearing
    out the connectors. Especially something portable like a guitar
    amp. I would be afraid that eventually the amp would start to have
    problems, especially if you are constantly swapping preamp modules.
    My concerns may not be well founded, since I really havent looked
    at them, but it is a possibility.
                                       
    							Mark Jacques
    
                             
    
    

    	Your right about the pluggable modules! The Seymour Duncan I
    tried had this problem. They use card edge connectors for the different
    preamp modules in there 60/100 model. This is a shortcoming of the
    design,however I wonder if the intensions were not to always be
    changing them? 

    Re .38, I agree. I think the intention on the Seymour Duncan 
    convertables was not to be changing preamps often, but to custom
    configure the amp to you personal taste. Non the less, even if
    you are not changing modules frequently, I would still rather
    have an amp that is Hardwired rather than having plug-in modules
    inside that can possibly shake loose.
                        
                                        	Mark J.
    

    
    Our lead guitarist had his Duncan convertable blow out the other night.
    Something arc'd and melted one of his tube sockets. 
    
    A month ago, he'd spent a few hours at a local establishment with
    Howard Leese (sp?) from Heart.  HS used Duncans for quite awhile (in
    fact, that was the reason my friend bought one in the first place)     
    but said they were a real bitch to maintain and finally got into
    something else.  Of course, gear with Heart probably goes through some
    pretty heavy abuse. 

    I know Jeff Beck is using Duncan amps...however aside from extreme
    volume they probably don't see much abuse...Jeff rarely plays out.
    
    The intent of the manufacturer was for a custom configuration that
    you left alone pretty much...I think...they don't lend themselves
    to rapid changeover that well..
    
    dave

    I can't really comment yet on the reliability of the Duncan's. I'll
    admit that bus connectors have a bad history for reliability. I'm not
    gigging regularly, so that wasn't a major concern of mine when I
    bought it. I don't really know if Duncan intended for the modules
    to be exchanged often or not, but the sales rep told me that a lot
    of studio musicians are using them for just this reason -- carry
    one amp and a handful of modules to get the sound that's needed
    on demand (could be hype). In any case, it's really quite easy to
    swap the modules. Not necessarily something you would want to do
    during or between songs in a live performance, but something that
    could easily be done between sets. I'd have to concur, however, that
    the more you swap things the more likely they are to break.
    
    For me the advantage of the Duncan was that I couldn't seem to find
    the exact combination of sounds I was looking for in any other amp,
    and with the Duncan I could customize it to my liking. It also gives
    me the option of experimenting with new sounds as time goes on without
    investing in a new amp.
    
    I've only had mine for three months, I'll let you know when it blows.

    - Ram

    I read somewhere in the notes file about Dumble Amps. Someone mentioned
    an article in the September 85 Guitar Player. I pulled out the article
    this weekend and read up on Howard Dumble, and his amps. They way
    that he describes them, his amps are the greatest thing since sliced
    bread and everyone elses' amps sound awful. If you fail to take
    a grain of salt before reading this article you can come away pretty
    well disheartened by this article. He claims that all of the major
    manufacturers are going about amplifier design all wrong by using
    multiple preamp designs. His amps have only one preamp. He gets
    overdrive by having the preamp feedback on itself. The "ratio" control
    on the front of his amps control the amount of signal fed back into
    the preamp. He makes about a half dozen different models, including
    the "Overdrive", the "Steel String Singer", "Winteland" , Dumbleland,
    and his new "Pheonix" series. The Overdrive and steel string singer are
    both 50 watt combo's. The overdrive amp is capable of so much radical
    overdrive/distortion that he recommends you approach it slowly,
    else you might get scared. He gets $1995 for the 50 watt amps,
    and $5000.oo for the 100 watt amps. He doesn't say how much the
    Pheonix series cost, but it comes in rack mountable modules which
    allows you to get the sound of all of his amps in one amp. Obviously,
    we are talking megabucks for this amp system. He contends that
    you can toss any of his amps out a third floor window, replace any
    tubes that break, and the amp will work fine. The reliability is
    only one selling point, as the sound is unparrelled in any amp.
    
    	The story of his life is also pretty incredible, as he was building
    small transistor radios for his school chums when he was 8 years
    old, and designed a line of amplifiers for Mosrite when he was 19. He 
    has sold amps to Stevie Ray Vaughn, Eric Johnson, David Lindley,
    (the lead guitarist for Jackson Browne), and many others. He personally
    oversees the construction of all guitar amps himself and all are made 
    by hand. He often does house calls to demonstrate them to various 
    celebrities.     
    
    	He claims that his amps have so much bandwidth that they can
    be used with either guitar or bass (this seems odd to me, but that
    is what he claims). When asked what makes his amps sound so good,
    and work so reliably, he said that those are all highly gaurded
    secrets, however, he did mention that detail is paid to every
    connection, and he has found over the years which parts hold up
    well and which parts fail. He is very picky about speakers, but
    respects JBL, Altec, EVM, and Celestian. He used to use JBL's but
    had problems with the coil shorting out on the magnet, so he used
    Altec, until Electro Voice came out with their EVM series. Now he
    uses them exclusively. 
    
    	This article definately makes for interesting reading, but can
    be quite intimidating to us mere mortals.
    
    
    							Mark Jacques
    
    
    

    The opinions of SRV and EJ are highly regarded, but all you have
    to know to want a Dumble is that Larry Carlton now uses one.
    
    	db

    I think that this type of amplifier is just about obsolete.
    
    If the ADA MP-1 preamp delivers what it promises we'll all be using
    stereo power heads driven by one of these beasties (or another
    manufacturer's similar products Roland's GP-8?) rather than limit
    ourselves to just one or two sounds without twiddling the knobs.
    
    dave

    
    What is so revolutionary about the circuits in the ADA preamp.
    Granted, you may have your choice of mos-fet, tube, hybrid, and
    can program any combination you want, but the circuits they are
    using are the same type preamp circuits everyone else uses. I
    think Howard Dumbles' point is that conventional preamp circuits
    just don't cut it for guitar, but his preamps do. Only he knows 
    how he gets the sound out of his amps, but they must work, because
    otherwise the celebratities wouldn't intrust him with their sound.
    One of his long time advocates was the late great Lowell George. 
    Lowell and David Lindley both used the Steel String Singer model amps. 
    Now I know how Lowell got that singing sound with his Strat.
    
    	I guess if you are rich enough to buy one of his amps, you can
    probably afford to buy 2. A steel string singer, and overdrive
    would make a nice combination, but would set you back about $10,000.
    
                                      			Mark J.
    
    
    

	Well Mark,what's so revolutionary about the ADA is it provides you
with multiple distortion tones or sound's at the touch of a button!  So 
instead of having all these different fuzz boxes you have one. Even though
it's a bit pricey,it worth investigating. Howards Dumble's point is more of
an opinion which is shared by people like Dave Lindley,Larry Carlton etc...
	The Ada is a clone of sounds(if that)whereas a Dumble amp provides
that custom tailored sound identified to an artist. 
	A Rockman,sometimes described as "Boston in a Box" is a clone sound,
to get this type of sound out of amp involves variacs,resistors,EQ circuits.
and other pieces of hardware. Fortunately someone did the design work to
make it easier to get this sound.
	Nowadays we don't do real redesign we repackage and make everthing
cheaper. In the case of tube amp's Howard is one of these guy's that seem to
be rare and have some invaluable experiance or knowledge in an archaic field 
which no one can make a quick buck at.
	Someone like Eric Johnson who would use 4 different amp's to get his 
sound see's spending 5k-10k to get the same sound to save himself or his road-
ies alot of pain is no different than you buying tools to do your job.
	The day of using Rackmount effects and preamps have made life easier
for everyone. I personally dislike pedal effects. If I can't reachover with-
out bending over I would rather do without. I'd like to see someone start a 
generic note for reviewing products like the ADA,Rockmodules,Seymour Duncan
amp's,the Boogie quad preamp and the G&K Stereo preamp etc....... 


							How about it?

								Rick

    Dave ha got the right idea as trends from manufacturers are heading
    in this direction.....
    

    what's so nice about the ADA preamp is that it will hold 128
    footswitchable preamp programs. Not limited to two or three sounds like
    every other amp in the universe. When I'm on stage I usually don't have
    alot of time to mess around with resetting all my tone and volume
    controls. With the ADA I just select the program I want and go....(when
    I get one) and it will automatically set up my midiverb at the same
    time (and any other midi processors)....with one flick of the
    foot....the new generation of amp technology is arriving... 
    
    Not to mention that I set my amp differently for one guitar than
    I do for another....again too much knob twisting to be doing
    comfortably on stage...
    
    Not real familiar with Howard Dumble but his attitude puts  me off..
    there are many paths to nirvana, he may know one of them but only
    that one...conventional preamps do cut it for guitar...marshall,
    boogie, fender, hiwatt etc all use similar approaches, but they
    are all also part of the sound of moderrn guitar...semour duncan
    feels that his amps are the best because you can change preamps
    to taylor the amp to your requirements...another path that's all.
    Dumble may feel that amps with video bandwidth are the wave of the
    future in guitar amps...how many people do you know that have one?
    Have you heard one in person? just another approach to the same
    result...a sound that the end user is happy with, not an elegant
    engineering solution that costs zillions and is restrictive beacuse
    of it's cost.
    
    dave

    RE: .47  - The part about the generic note for new product reviews...
    
    I would prefer to see seperate notes for each product.  It's a lot
    easier looking through the note titles when trying to find information
    on something you're interested in.  Otherwise you have to do a search
    (even if it's on that one note...) which frustrates moderators and
    eats resources on the node servicing the notes file.
    
    Greg

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not planning to sell my house and buy
    a Dumble amp tomorow. I'm just saying that you have to respect
    the man's convictions. Also, we have all heard Dumble amps,
    whether we realize it or not. Lowell George (Little Feat) used
    them, Bonnie Rait uses them, David Lindley, etc, etc. His approach
    is that Less is more. Would you rather own 10 toyota celicas or
    1 good Ferrari ? 
    
    	As far as the ADA preamp, I think The votes are still not
    in. It's such a new product that it's hard to say whether or not
    it's gonna make it. Will it still be around a year from now. In
    a couple of months 10 other companies will come out with something
    as good, better, for less money. You get my point. I'm always
    concerned about obselesence. 
    
    	On a different note, I demo'd a Gelien Krueger (sp?) last night
    and I think I'm in love. Does anyone know any stores besides Wurly
    that sell Galien Krueger? What is the best price avail. for a 250ML?
    Also what is the going price for EVM 12" raw drivers? I will probably
    need a couple for ext. cabs if I buy a 250ml.
                          
    							Mark Jacques
    
    

    re: Dumble amps I can get the same sound out of my Fender as Lowell
    George, it's not hard to do...yawn
    
    re: G&K nice amps for recording and practice.
         
    re: ADA, I agree the votes aren't all in but the idea is the wave
    of the future...finally. Roland already has a competing product,
    theirs was actually first, others will flood soon...I predict a
    fast death to the Scholz rockmodules.....obsolete and piss poor
    from the beginning...anybody interested in buying mine? The idea
    that i can buy a decent power amp, take advantage of the stereo
    out of my preamp and use programmable functionality to give myself
    maximum flexability onstage that is the future...if all you want
    is one sound then buy the amp of your choice...for me one or two
    sounds are not near enough...
    
    personally I'd rather have the celicas....but then I'm more of a
    practical person...I'd trade them all for a decent 4wd truck...
    
    dave

    
    As of this moment, I am pretty much sold on the little 250ML.
    I'm debating whether to look for a used one in the want ads, or
    buy a new one. I figure I can pick one up for 250-300 rather than
    pay the 500 they are asking for new ones. I also plan to buy the 
    gig bag, and full function footswitch for this amp.
    
    I also realize that I will need to use my extension cab with 2 12" 
    speakers wired in stereo for stage use of this amp. I am thinking 
    about using the 2 12" JBL D120's from my Twin with the 250ML, and
    get 2 Celestian speakers to use in my Twin. This way, the Twin will 
    have to work a little harder to produce the same volume level, and 
    will "sing" a bit more. Since the 250ML has less power than the Twin,
    it needs the more efficient Speakers. 
    
    How many different models of speakers does Celestian make ? Which ones
    would work best with a Twin ? How much for each speaker, and where should
    I shop for them ?
                                                            
    I would appreciate any info that would help me get the best deal
    on Celestians.
    
    						Thanks,
    						Mark Jacques
                                                            
    
    Can't wait for the holidays to get over so I can make my move !!
    
                                                                 

	I guess I missed something... Are you trying to get a clean sound
out of the GK or distortion?
	If you buy a Gk 250 ml be careful(have I said this before?) And
before you go out and buy more speakers etc, consider using the Preamp
output of the Gk where the signal is processed to be distorted for that dirty 
sound into your twin.
	Also if you buy used try to find a Series 2 model of the 250ml which 
has the recessed knobs and a bit larger case. Even though series one
    amps are ok too,they generally are more used.
	Ask to look under the cover and look at the back of the amp for burn
marks from blown power transistors,I saw one used amp which must have been 
pretty fried and they tried to cover it up,by scraping the charcoal away.
	Celestion speakers come in 15watt,30watt,65or70watt flavors from what
I've seen,each having different sound's to them. 30 watt speakers were $78 ea.
and you may find them cheaper. I saw some used in the wantads for about $55.

							Rick

    re .54, Rick, On stage I will probably use the Galien Krueger 
    mainly for a distortion sound, but this amp also has a nice 
    clean sound as well as a clean sound with a slight edge by
    pushing in the gain button on the clean channel, not to mention
    a great chorus sound with both clean and distortion channels.
    Why the concern about using the 250ML's own power amp section 
    through an ext cab ? People use 50watt Marshalls, Boogies, etc,etc,
    on stage with plenty of power to spare. The 250ML has, not 1, but 2 
    50watt power amps for a total of 100 watts. Why would I want to come
    out the line out into my Twin on stage. If you are saying that I
    could save money by coming out the line out of the ML250 into my
    Twin, I can understand your point. If you are saying that the ML250
    would be inadequate on stage with or without an ext cab, I ask you
    to explain why you feel this way. Do these amps have a history of
    electrical problems that I should know about ? 
    
    	By the way, I am aware of the difference between the original
    250ML and the newer (type 2) version, and plan to buy the newer
    version if I buy one at all.
    
    							Mark J.
    

    I think what Rick is trying to say mark is that if you wanted to,
    you could essentially use the GK 250ML as a preamp to your Twin.
    I use my 250 at the moment as a preamp to my Marshall (till an ADA
    or Metaltronix takes its place). That way you could emply the 
    channel switching of the Gk and get either a distorted or clean
    sound, and with the twin you get sort of a mix of the transistor
    and tube sound. Sounds pretty cool. LOUD!
    
    chcek it out
    
    wjb

    	Yea Bill's got the idea,plus you could still use an A/B switch
    to play a stock Fender sound also. So you have a#1 CLEAN GK,#2 DISTORTED
    GK,AND #3 FENDER CLEAN. Three amp sounds without the pain of an
    extra speaker cab or expense. More tommorrow..... 

    
    Sort of a weird application, but if you choose to use the 250 as
    a preamp to your Twin, you can still use the power stage to drive
    speakers for something else....like the day up at Rik Sawyer's place
    when we used WJB's 250 as the PA power amp.
    

    
    
    re. 59
    ahhhhhh
    what a day
    
    sun was shining
    sky was blue
    18 musicians
    lots of beer
    23 rented audience members....
    
    

	"Using the Preamp output of the Gk where the signal is processed to be 
distorted for that dirty sound into your twin." 

	All the distortion(which is variable internally) is done in the preamp
stages of the 250ml,250rl etc. This also includes your effects chorus and echo.
	When used in a recording situation you would plug right into the mixer
from the preamp section. Gk has just put out a stereo preamp which does every-
thing the 250ml does except distortion,chorus,echo is variable. Plus it has 
noise reduction...
	By using the GK for a preamp you save yourself backache from moving 
multiple speaker cab's,buying more equipment etc. You also now have a 80 to
100 watt amplifier with high efficiency speakers which can cover almost any 
size hall short of the Centrum. Some GK amp's have a speaker switch which will
shut off the speakers. By using the GK this way you will need to play with
both the twin volumes and the GK volumes and tonally have a little more 
control. Keep in mind that you will also be more sensitive to noise. You could
also just tie into the power section of the twin and bypass your twin preamp.
	I'm not privy to data from GK about there reliability or history,however
I was told the series 2 is a better amp reliability wise. I have seen a couple
of Gk's whose power section was blown up and there was serious etch damage,I
have heard about blown speakers,and people banging them or dropping them and
breaking pot's and knobs off. They don't seem to take the same abuse that a
Fender can,but this is also a user's habit's I was also told they are 
impedance sensitive and require this in order to run efficiently.
	I really wish there was someone in this forum who would or could look
over the possibility that there is some merit in that the way we use this 
equipment or design is not correct. I notice that the high gain amps like 
GK,Marshall,Boogie take less abuse and need more maintenance than others. I
have never had problems or really heard of problems with Fender,Roland JC's
and others..... As hardware designers are tube's and transistors being used
in an undesirable manner or application? Is Howard Dumble really got the
correct way of achieving distortion/overdrive without decreasing reliability
or using parts out of specification?
	Yea... that was a great day at Rik's! wish there were more!


							Rick

    
    	The new issue of Guitar Player has a Product Profile on the
    new twin.  Sounds like a pretty nice baby.

>    I notice that the high gain amps like  GK,Marshall,Boogie take less 
>    abuse and need more maintenance than others. I have never had problems 
>    or really heard of problems with Fender,Roland JC's and others..... 
    
    The company that became Mesa Engineering started out as a Fender
    repair operation!  The first Boogie was actually a ruggedized
    Fender Princeton!
    
    I know lots of people with Boogies and not one of them has ever
    had any problem other than burned out power tubes.  I don't know
    quite as many folks with Fenders but my experience is that they
    are not known for their reliability the way Boogies are.
    
    Every Boogie that leaves the factory has actually been HAMMERED
    ON by Randall Smith or his first assistent.
    
    There's an interesting interview with Smith in last months Daddy's
    Junky Mail magazine.  It's recommended reading.
     
	db

	I know and have known lot's of people who use and have had Boogies
also.(your's truly included) I'm been familiar with Boogie since the 70's
when they could be bought for $450. with a 6 month waiting list. I revisted
this in 1978 at a cost of $1200. and still a 6 month wait.
	My point perhap's was misunderstood and out of the three manufacturers
I mentioned,GK and Marsh. I would say Mesa build's the most reliable product. 
	I've owned several Fender's and have never had problems with them,along
with alot of professional musicians who also have never had problems and this 
is the real test. Keep in mind I am specifically speaking about the older 
Fenders built in the 60's and 70's. Playing music for a living and working on 
the road is more of a test than someone who plays locally and does it for fun 
on weekends or in there basement/garage.
	Boogies and there major expense is in there power amp section. My 
question was centered around application and the design for reliability.The
fact that you quite possibly have an expense every 6 month's of $75 to $100
for power tubes doesn't seem right. I never replace power tube's in
    Fender's that often and maybe once a year when I played professionally
    regardless of the need.(the cost was alot less too!)
	I read Fred's interview/conversation with Randall Smith some of 
which was interesting.
                                                        
							Rick

    When I firt bought my Fender Twin (new in 1979), I had a couple
    of problems with it that required repair. The first time I took
    it out of the house, after I had it for a week or two, something
    inside blew out, and the amp wouldn't work at all. I had to bring
    it back to the store for repairs. The repairman said some resistor
    inside the amp smoked. I never had problems with that again, however
    when the amp was about 2 years old, the bridge rectifier started
    getting leaky, and putting lots of 60 cycle hum into the amp. I
    had to have the diodes in the Bridge rectifier replaced. Other than
    that the only thing I have ever had to do is replace tubes. I attribute
    these early life problems to a. Infant mortalitiy on the resistor
    that blew right away. b. the use of cheap diodes in the bridge
    rectifier.
    
    	So all in all, I have to admit that Fender amps are probably
    not the most reliable in the world, but this only applies to amps
    made in the last 10-15 years. Since I have had these problems fixed
    the amp has been trouble free. Fortunately, I have never had a problem
    on stage that was the fault of the amp. 
    
    	Thanks for the suggestions on using the GK 250ML with my Twin.
    It saved me from going off half cocked and buying speakers I can
    do without. One question though. Do I come out of the 250ml's balanced
    line output into the unbalance input on my Twin, or is there another
    preamp output jack on the rear panel?
    
    
    						Mark
    
    

    re .65
    
    You can use the stereo out jack, or the effects loop send (only
    return breaks normal), or the headphone out (shuts off speakers
    in 250ml).
    
    wjb

    	If this works out to be a good combination for you sound wise
    and produces minimum noise problems there is only one more item
    which you may need to consider......
    	If you are playing with another guitar player and he is capable
    of moving more air than you,you might want to consider adding a
    speaker cabinet for the Twin. My experiance is as follows that I
    was using my 50 watt amp with a 1 12" cab,playing with someone
    who had a 50 watt amp with 4 10's. I feel pretty foolish for admiting
    my ignorance of this common law of physics,but he seriously was
    blowing me away. My humbleness begins... Therefore you may need
    that cabinet.. I did and used a 4 10 cab to keep up..
    	Does anyone know what the sound pressure level differance is
    of an open back enclosure,a ported enclosure and an infinate baffle
    enclosure(airtight).
    	I would wait and see what your real needs are.....

    
    
    Re: number of speakers vs. volume, etc.
    
    The basic thing is how much cone area you have.  the open back vs.
    sealed cabinet has more to do with the *tuning* , of the
    enclosure...closed back cabinets, ported or horn loaded or even
    infinite baffle type usually provide a flatter response in the
    low end, important for bass more than guitar.      
    
    That is, at frequencies above 1 Khz, you would find that almost
    any cabinet (or even a speaker in open air) will provide about the
    same SPL with the same speakers installed.  At frequencies below
    200 Hz, tuning of the cabinet becomes *very* important.  The open E on
    a bass guitar is about 40 Hz.  On a guitar about 80 Hz.  Which explains
    why open-back bass amps (like some practice amps) sound so thin.
    Or why playing guitar through an SVT cabinet provides such a deep,
    fat tone relative to playing through a Twin.
    
    As far as cone area, look at some simple math:
    
    The ratio of 10" to 12" is 1.2
    
    the ratio of 10" to 15" is 1.5
    
    the ratio of 10" to 18" is 1.8
    
    Now, area of a circle is proportional to the radius squared.
    
    So square the above ratios:
    
    1.2 squared is 1.44.  Or three 10s have roughly as much cone area
    as two twelves.
    
    1.5 squared is 2.25.  Or two 10s have roughly as much cone area as
    one 15.
    
    1.8 squared is 3.24.  Or three 10s roughly have as much cone area
    as one 18.
    
    Some quick comparisons of cone area, relative to common speaker
    cabs:
    
    4 X 10 = 2 X 15     2 X 12 = 1 X 18
    
    
    Now note that an SVT cabinet with eight tens has the equivalent
    of *four fifteens* in it, so it will push a lot of air, and give lots
    of bass...but because each driver is only 10" it can provide much
    more midrange and treble than  15" speakers could.  So there are
    tradeoffs to picking the speaker size while keeping cone area constant.
                                          
    Also, every time you double the cone area, you increase the acoustic
    output of your amp by 3 dB.  To do this with wattage would require
    double the wattage!!  Now you know why a Marshall 50 watter driving
    eight 12" speakers sounds so much louder than a 50 watt Marshall
    combo driving one 12!!!!  The combo would need to push about 200
    watts, never mind that the extra drivers allow better dispersion
    (the sound will carry better), important in large rooms.                                              
    
    In fact, an amp you consider "not loud enough" may be plenty loud
    if you hook it up to more speakers.  I have successfully used a
    Silvertone 5-watt tube practice amp to drive a 15" bass guitar cabinet.
    It plays a *lot* louder through the cabinet...why not, a 15" speaker
    moves about four times as much air as an 8" speaker, never mind
    the enhanced low end.
    
    My setup currently is a modular setup... a self-contained 120 watt
    amp/single 15" combination, plus a spare 15" cabinet, plus a spare
    50 watt head.  So I have a number of options including stereo
    amplification and only need to drag along as many pieces as the
    job requires.  If I ever upgrade I intend to use a similar "building
    block" approach so that I don't end up lugging an SVT to a wedding
    but can still assemble a monster rig for when Steve Morse asks me to join
    his band 8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    

    We now have an emphatic "New Twin Reverb" owner in our midst.
    I personally talked Dave Jasmin (Of John's Basement Band fame)
    into buying one. The one he bought has got snakeskin tolex
    covering and looks just as great as it sounds. He has found
    that this amp can produce a real good Marshall crunch sound
    as well as an array of other sounds ranging from the traditional
    twin reverb clean sound, to a Boogie singing lead, to a heavy
    crunch, AND IT'S LOUD !!!
    
    I would have liked to buy one, but couldn't bear to part with my
    old Twin. In stead, I bought a Gallien Krueger 2000cpl preamp, which
    I am also very happy with. Ths nice thing about the preamp, is it
    gives me a great deal of flexibility, ie: I can use it in mono
    mode with my Twin, or configure a stereo, component, amplifier
    system, using a generic power amp, and 2 speakers. The five function
    footswitch places all of the controls that I need at my feet. 
    
    Thanks to everyone that gave me advice. It helped me to make what
    I consider the right choice.
    
    Dave, I'm happy for you, but also jealous. Looking forward to
    hearing the new Twin at Springjam !!! 
    
    
    Mark Jacques
    

	I had a chance to try extensively the new Twin and unfortunately I
was very disapointed. It had a nice clean sound which was very Fenderish,
but I found the overdriven sound very gritty. No real warmth,no singing 
and the tone control was very minimal at best. And I had a hard time getting
a variety of tones it even took me some time to get that characteristic Fender
sound.	At a List Price of $1200 which is truly exorbitant I think that even 
at a discount you could afford 2 used twins....and have stereo capabilities 
etc....Or maybe even buy a used Boogie MK2? How could they miss the boat? 
again? Of course this was just my opinion and other people may find the amp
suits there needs and can foot the bill. I'm very picky and do not mean
    to rub anyone the wrong way....
    


							Rick

    
    It has taken me a while to notice this most recent reply. As far
    as the new Twin is concerned, if I had gone into a store and simply
    fiddled with the knobs for a while, I too may have been unimpressed
    with the new Twin. However, Eddy at Wurlitzers gave me a really
    good demonstration of the tonal possibilities of this amp. Between
    the pull (variable) bright on both channels, the pull mid cut on
    the clean channel, the pull mid boost on the lead channel, the
    presence, and notch functions, this amp is extremely flexible.
    Add to that the assignable reverb, and you have one nice package
    In the owners manual Fender lists about 10 settings that will give
    you various important sounds, like that of the Pre-cbs Twin, Super,
    Bassman, champ, vibrolux, etc. GP reviewed them quite favorably.
    The twin also has tri-mode operation (2 independant channels,
    channel switching, of parrallel channel operation, selectable).
    Many other amps offer you one place to plug in a guitar, period.
    How many Boogies have this much flexibility for under $1200-$1500?
    Even on Boogies with EQ's, the EQ, is shared by both channels.
    Most Boogies are 50watt, compared to the Twins 100watts. Most 
    Boogie combos have only 1 12" speaker. This takes us back to cone
    area, and shear volume. In many settings, the Boogie would have
    to be miced, where the Twin wouldn't.
    
    	As far as the price is concerned, there is no such thing as
    a discount on a Mesa Boogie, Randall Smith sees to it that no one
    sells his amps for less than list price. Don't let the $1200 list
    on the Twin scare you. Wurly sells them for $850 for the plain
    black version, and about $925 for the optional coverings (like
    snakeskin, red, blonde, etc).
     
    	Heres where I stand. A friend of mine bought a new twin in January.
    His is a snake version, which he paid about $900 for (inc tax).
    He is getting out of playing in bands, and has offered to sell it
    to me for abour $600. Not that he doesn't like the amp, he loves
    it, but doesn't feel that the amp is gonna get much use now, needs
    money for other things, and would like to see the amp have a good
    home. Can I resist grabbing it for $600 ???? NOOOO WAY !!!!
    
    	I still have my silver-faced Twin and plan to keep it. This
    will give me stereo capabilities which I would like for getting
    the most out of my MidiverbII.
    
   Enough said.
    
    Mark
     
    
    

>    How many Boogies have this much flexibility for under $1200-$1500?
    
    Just one, but how many do you need?
    
    Boogie introduced a *QUAD* amp earlier this year.  Although it may 
    be slightly more than that and it doesn't include a cabinet.  I'll try 
    and remember to bring in the brochure I got on it.
    
    Anyway Boogies are very "flexible" sound-wise, but not performance
    wise.  You can get a wide variety of sounds but you can't switch between 
    them very quickly.
    
    I decided to hold off on getting another Boogie amp until they come
    out with MIDI-Boogie (not a rumor, just a hope).
    
    	db

    My point in .72 is that even if Mesa does make an amp for $1200
    with all the flexibility of the Twin, they would "sell" for $1200,
    not just "list" for $1200. The Twin lists for around $1200 but ca
    be had for a mere $850. Add to that the added features, and power....
    I just think the Fender has staked a claim for itself in the same
    class as the Boogies, Marshall Jubilees, and other amps in that
    class. 
    
    I noticed the Boogie Quad in a magazine a while back. Isn't it
    completely modular (ie, you purchase the preamp,  simul-class
    power amps, and speakers separately).
    
    Mark

LaSalle's Music in Boston has been having a Moving Sale for a couple weeks.  
They carry Fender amps.  Twins are going for $695.

    
    I realize that the answer is probably imbedded somewhere in these 77
    replies, but in the interest of not losing my job, could someone please
    tell me the model number(s) of the Marshall Jubilee amps discussed in
    this note?  A price would be also appreciated.
    
    Sank you (Bobbie and Sissie...Now to introduce the band...Each one a
    bad a$% in his own right)
    
    -pat

    You sure you got the right note, Pat?
    
    Anyway, the Jubilee Series amps are the 2555 (100wt head), 2550 (50wt
    head), 2553 (50wt 'mini stack' head), 2558 (2x12 combo), and 2554 (1x12
    combo).
    
    Don't have any idea how much they cost...
    
    Hth,
    Greg

      
       Not to be a downer, but I sold my Marshall Jubilee 2554 for $450
    so I could buy a more versatile amp. I used the Marshall a year,
    it looked nice, sounded decent, but I really like another brand
    MUCH better. (hint: KH 1103)
       If I was to buy a new Fender, I would look at their new 
    Super 60. It seems to be a good amp for the price and the overdrive
    characteristics seem (to me anyway) better than any twin I've heard.

    Aw sh*t!!  We just can't seem to get away from these d*mn KH owners!
    
    guess who  8^)

    re: -2
    
    You sold your 2550?!?  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
    
    I want it, I want it!
    
    ;^(

I was just going through this topic, eager to get some important informa-
tion on my *NEW FENDER TWIN*, and what did I find? A lot of stuff about
Marshall, GK, SD, MB etc.

Don't anyone have anything to say about this fantastic amp? I like it so
much, it's just that I'm getting confused about all the posibilities in
setting the buttons - I don't think it's enough with the examples delive-
red with the amp...

Can anyone list some examples of setting up this amp? Couldn't we share
some experience here? F. ex., I found one overdrive setting (damn, I don't
remember how I did it), which gave me a very singing sound with my Blade
strat connected; when keeping the tone, it changed into harmonics in a
very beautiful, smooth way...the only thing I'm not too impressed with, is
the noise level, especially if you pull out some of the treble boost but-
tons - but I guess, you have to live with this on a tube amp?

Another thing, somebody mentions Celestion speakers. Do they sound better
than the original ones, or are they just more reliable when playing on
HIGH volumes. If replacing the Fender ones with these, what part no. do
you order?

Hope to get some good info on my new wonder baby...

Poul

    Well I'll be dipped in sh** and called stinky! I never thought I would
    get another get another amp, I was so pleased with my old Fender Super
    six. But one thing the Super six didn't have was a good distortion
    sound, even with a distortions box, it still didn't sound right for the
    band I'm playing in. Well I was in the Music store the other day and he
    had a used Fender "the Twin". Being familiar with it by virtue of this 
    Notes file, I tried it out and  knew I had to have it. This amp is
    ME!!! Clean and clear when i want it to be, and a real sweet singing
    "distortion"  (maybe technically thats the right term, but we ought to
    come up with a better term for these sounds ala mesa et al.)
    
    I am so happy, this is like christmas when I was  kid. Isn't it agreat
    feeling when you're pleased with your equipment? Now I'd never tell you
    Marshall men that your amp sucks in comparison, or you boogie boys
    that you paid too much, or you kitty cats that you bought into snob
    appeal, buuuuuut......
    
    Just kidding friends ;<) This is a wicked versatile amp and if you're in
    the market for a new amp at some point in the future, and need some
    versatility, then do yourself a favor and check "the Twin" out.
    
    "sakman"

       Congrats on the new amp. New equipment is ALWAYS fun, unless
    it breaks or your wife b*tches about where the money could be 
    spent better.
       BTW - Us Kitty (Hawk) cats aren't snobs, just "bang for the buck
    mother f_ck_rs" ! :-}.
    
    						-/b/-

    Just did a gig this past weekend using my new Twin. I figured this
    would be the "acid" test. I've bought equipment before only to notice
    that it didn't sound the same when playing out as it did in either the
    store or in practice. Well, as it turned out, the amp didn't sound
    quite the same as it did in practice. That is, I did have to change the
    tone settings to compensate the hall acoustics.  But LHM (Lord Have
    Mercy) what an amp! I've had it some three weeks now and I still get a
    hard-on thinking about it.  What a good piece of equipment.
    
    As to the initial expense of the amp let me say that it seems like a
    real bite in the ass at first. But guys, we're all "high paid DECCIE's"
    right? ;^)   Seriously, it's good equipment and for it's level of
    versatility and quality, it can't be beat. Boogies get more $ and imho
    you get far less. Don't know about Kitty's, and I can't stand Marshalls
    (admittedly predjudiced). You can definatlely find less expensive amps,
    but when you factor in the notion that this is a top of the line amp,
    that'll undoubtedly be the last amp you'll ever need, break down the
    cost per year over your lifetime, I think it becomes much more
    affordable. Hell, we pay much more for a new cars just to throw away
    thousands as soon as you drive it off the lot. Mark Jacques once said
    that he always ended up disappointed in the end if he settled for less
    than what he wanted. I couldn't agree with him more. Maybe that's why
    so many of us are always on the hunt for new stuff. Eh?
    
    "sakman" 

    
    	Hey Sakman, all the badass bluesmen in the world can't be wrong.
    	A Strat thru a Twin has an unmistakably "on the money" tone.
    
    	rock it.

    Agreed !  If you're gonna *try* and sound professional, you gotta have
    professional gear - no doubt.  A guy at the gig this past weekend
    commented on how nice my rig sounded.  He said he had a Peavey combo
    amp and 2 off brand stomp boxes and he couldn't get close to my tone.
    Then I told him I probably had about $1500 more in my rig than he did. 
    Not that spending lots of $$$$ always = a good tone, but buying good
    solid top of the line gear will always enhance your talents ....
    
    Scary (who's ready for his Lear jet ...  8^)

    Hey Mark J.
    
    Well, I'm here, but I STILL don't get the jist of your reply in
    note 1103!  So, just exactly WHAT am I supposed to FIN in this
    note?!?!?!?
    
    
    ON a side note, saw LA Guns last night.  Tracii Guns has abandoned
    his double Marshall stack setup for a double Fender Twin stack setup!
    I'll admit, he had a great sound...but then again, Tracii uses 9
    million little floor fx to get a sound!  Not the approach I'd take
    to playing, but it works for him.
    
    FWIW,
    B.

    I was kidding. We all know that Marshalls are considered "the
    only real amp" by some people. I figured I could get your' goat
    by suggesting that the new Fender Twin is "the only real amp".
    
	Have a good weekend.
    

    Well, over my vacation I got a chance to play thru a silver faced
    "Twin", a Fender 185 something-or-other and a "The Twin" amp...
    
    Impressions in 20 words or less:
    
    Silver faced Twin-
    Loud.  Nice clean sound.  No distortion� what so ever... 
    
    185 thingie-
    
    Not much distortion, but more than the silver face, but kinda buzzy
    like a GK. Transistors I guess.
    
    The Twin-
    
    This amp WAILS !  I was impressed.  Kinda heavy though.
    
    �jc defines an amps goodness by onboard distortion.
                           

	Yah.... Them speakers are heavy. The current Showman is just
	that amp as a head....

	That Super60 gets some of those same tones. Lotsa good tube amps
	out the last coupla years. Check out the Peavey Triumph amps...

    
    
    
    
    	I agree about the super 60, it does sound nice.  If it only had a
    little more volume... sheesh... for a while there I was under the
    impression that Fender was offering a mod to get a little more joooooce
    out of the clean channel, but they're going to introduce a couple new
    60 wat amps... ummmmm.. wonder how many more 60s they're gonna sell
    after they introduce the new and improved ones..  Really, is the twin
    that heavy???  How heavy.. I'm really thinking of taking my 60 back... 
    I'm amping it into this CRATE that I thought would give me the volume
    that I wanted.. but it's a band aid at best.. plus I'll have to (if I
    ever play out) lug two amps instead of one...
    
    

    Geez, Steve you must be deaf.....how loud do you need to play?   I've
    gotten to the point where anything bigger than a Princeton seems like
    overkill to me  8^)  8^)

    
    
    
    	Yeah... My 66 princeton sounded a hell of a lot louder to me and it
    was only 30 watts.  I had a real guitar player take my amp to a local
    jam and try it out... and honestly, I couldn't hear it on the clean
    channel... the dirty channel, however, has loads of loud  [;^)

	a potential Ampeg V4 convert???

	Weight of the Twin: more that 70lbs. More like 100.

	I've gotten a cab with another 12 for my 60 and that helps get
	the air moving a bit better but I'm probably going to be trading
	up to a showman head as soon as the cash frees up. I like my
	clean side LOUD and the 60 doesn't do it.... I do love the OD
	on that amp tho....

	Then again, used V4s are cheap.

    
    
    
    	What would you run the showman head into??

    re: "Geez, Steve you must be deaf..."
    
    He's been to the Buckley school of guitar volume.  ;^)
    
    Time to trade that ole Fender in for a pair of 50wt Marshalls, Steve...
    
    Greg

    Don't make the same mistake I did...go 100watts for sure!
    
    Buck, who needs more volume

    100 W! I used to think a Boogie 400W power amp would have a nice
    crispyness at low volumes, but dread tube changes 
                                     16 tubes!  Super ack!
    
    ANyway Stewrt-macdonalds has real cheep no-name tubes no,
    they went from Groove Tubes to TNT tubes to cheep no-namers
    
    

	agagagagaga....

	A Speaker. I'd start with that extra 12. Too bad the cab is
	butt-ugly. I'll be investing in a Fender 2x12 before springing
	for a new amp. It'd be nice if they sold that 100wt power
	stage as a rack mount separate.....

    
      100 replies!!!
    
    							R.C.
    

    
    
    
    	Hmmmm.. I never played through a Marshall.. wonder how my Freddy
    king stuff would sound through that kind of rig???   Buck, you're a
    practicin' musician.... you get to have big amps... I'm still pretty
    much a bedroom player.... Now what kind of Tape player will I need so
    that it can be heard over my 100 watt amp... <grin>... I don't feel
    deaf anymore....
    
    
    .99  I've run my extension speaker jack to a 2 12 (2 four ohm speakers
    in series) and I WAS NOT impressed...  Things get pretty well rounded
    when I plug into a power amp, but that's about it.  Wish we lived
    closer, you could come over and try my stuff... them we could go
    shopping for twins.. [;^)
    
    
    Regards,
    Steve

    (set mode texas ranger)
    Naw jez wait right there a minute you eastern slicker..
    I don play in no steenking bers and I don like no wicked rock-unrollin
    mu-taint mongekiods comin neha my mardhall! 
    But lemme tell yez my steenkin 100 w mershall taint need be so loud,
    dang thing sounds betta than those wimpy two-tuberz at whachacall
    re-ase-on-able vulume too.
    As  a matter of fact, Mainer, my bedroom's gotta have All the Watts
    I kin getta hol-of!
    (set mode off)
    
    toenail , the only way the'll take my marshall is prying it off my 
    cold dead fingers

    Lately, I'm beginning to think that us guitarists worry more about 
    our amps than we do our guitars. This note now has over 100 replies
    and the Kitty Hawk note has close to 1000. No guitar note in this
    conferance has this many replies. I have insulted more people by
    discussing amps than guitars by far. I guess amps are like religion.
    There is no quicker way to insult a person than to slander their
    religion. 
    
    I own a late model Fender "The Twin" and I love it, but I would be
    the first person to admit that it is not for everyone, and it
    certainly isn't the end-all. My next rig (that's right folks, I'm not 
    done buying toys yet) will be based on the Mesa Boogie Studio preamp
    (which I bought about 2 weeks ago), with one of their 50/50 power
    amps and two stacks of Mesa Boogie 1x12 cabs. I wouldn't even call
    this rig the ultimate, but it's a great sounding system, it's stereo,
    and being modular it allows you to upgrade.
    
    If money were no object I'd have an entire collection of Pre-CBS
    Fenders, Marshalls, Boogies, Vox AC30's, etc. Since money is an
    object decisions and trade-offs must be made. I'd love one of the
    new Fender 410 Bassman re-issues, but it's not a real versatile
    amp, just a way cool vintage replica. 
       
    By the way, is there an official "Marshall Roolz" note in this
    conference. It seems to be the amp of choice for many, but in
    all my years in this conference I don't believe I've seen a
    Marshall note of any real substance. Why don't you Marshall
    dudes get a note !!!
    
    Mark
    
    

    Yo Stevie your Freddy Kinbg licks would sound good through a marshall
    ask any english blues man, EC, Mic Taylor (I just got his live album
    awesome blues!!!) Peter Green etc...
    
    dbii ex-marshall rooles kind of guy
    
    
    
    

    Re: .103
    
    It's easy to understand amp preferences, but at the same time, I've
    heard plenty of good musicians running through different amps and they
    always manage to get their sound across.  Not to mention that I have
    played with a few Marshall-addicts on gigs where after blowing up their
    heads they had to use my old Bassman head as a backup...they all raved
    about it...readily available almost anywhere for $150!!!
    
    Every time you buy something to "get that sound", remember, it's gotta
    come out of your fingers first...
    
    							Brian

    Yo, Dude...
    
    I guess note 1655 is the MARSHALL note, although I wish the Mod would
    modify the title to MARSHALL AMPLIFICATION!  There are several Marshall
    notes in here, I wish they could be tied together somehow..
    
    ;^(
    
    B.

Re .103:

I think it's natural that your amplifier is important for you. After all,
it's a key point, since you normally don't have that many amplifiers. I
mean, you have, say 5 guitars, but you don't have 5 amps. F. ex. I got 4
guitars (2 acoustics and 2 electrics), but I have only got one amp, The
Twin. Think if you should have as many variations of amps as you have
different models of guitars...just think about Fender...
Also, I find it natural, that people go crazy about this amp, it's abso-
lutely amazing what you can do with it - I think the red-buttoned Twin
will become a legend, like VOX AC30 or so...

Re .104:

About 2 years ago, I actually saw Mick Taylor perform in Denmark, and he
was playing through...an old silverfaced Twin! However, back in '66 
(damned, am I really that old...) I heard him with John Mayall, playing
his Les Paul through a Marshall stack, still getting a terrific sound...
WHAT live album? What's it called? It must be the one they mentioned in
Guitar Player magazine? If it's the same crew, it should be with Max
Middleton on keys and with another indonesian-looking-long-black-curly-
hair young guy that played a TERRIFIC guitar!

Poul

    Just a nit, but not all of the late model Twins have red knobs.
    The black one does, but my Snake-skin Twin has black knobs, and
    charcoal grey grille cloth.
    
    I am working on a "serious" reply to this note in which I discuss
    various settings and tones available from the amp. Stay tuned.
    
    Mark
    

    The album is called "mick Taylor Live"
    
    Has an excellant version of Red House on it..
    
    If that's Max Middleton on keys he sure lays back...don't expect big
    things from the keyboards..
    
    dbii

    You have a snake-skin covered Twin?  Wow..I guess maybe Fender's
    allright after all.
    
    Greg

    Greg, When Fender first introduced The Twin, THe Champ 12, and
    the Showman head, they were available in about 6 differant colors.
    I believe they have reduced the number of colors to 3. Black, red,
    and snakeskin. 
    
    Mark
    
    

	When I went to order my Champ12 -  the only thing in stock was
	snakeskin so I took it. Looks good, but sounds gross - like 
	a Boogie ;-).

    I've owned my Fender "The Twin" for about 2.5 years now,  and I'm
    still delighted with it.   The only problem I've ever had with it 
    was due to noisy tubes. This is a common occurrence with all tube 
    amps...Can't blame Fender for that.
    
    I find myself using less and less distortion lately. Maybe my tastes
    have changed. It's nice having the capability there, but lately I've
    been setting up with just enough gain to sing,  without sounding too 
    gritty.  I generally set up both channels for the same basic volume 
    level.   I set the volume pot on my guitars around 8. When I need a 
    little more oomph for a solo,  I crank the volume pot on the guitar 
    to 10.   This gives me the ability to do clean or distorted rhythm, 
    and clean or distorted leads. Of course this trick doesn't work that 
    well if I am using my Compressor-sustainer. 
    
    I have tried all of the recommended settings, and the only one that 
    is special (IMHO) is the "notch distortion" setting.   The rest are 
    either intuative, or nothing special. Notch is a neat sound. 
    Kind of reminds me of that menacing sound you hear when you accidently 
    bust into a bee's nest. I use it sparingly though, because I don't want 
    to make it my "signature sound". I have three electric guitars, A Strat,
    a Tele, and a Gibson ES345.  Obviously,  I have to set the amp a little 
    differantly for each guitar to get the best tones. The clean channel 
    sets up like any Fender amp, so I won't go into sample settings. Here's 
    a few sample settings for the lead channel:

	Gain  Treble  Mid  Bass  Presence  Vol   Rev.			   	

1. 	4.5	5      5     7      7       2-3    3

2.	8-10    4      8     5-7    2
		pull   pull	    pull    1-2    3
		boost  boost	    notch

    1. This is my basic lead tone. With the right guitar settings, and
    a little compression, it's quite sweet. I generally Tweak the EQ
    for each guitar.

    2. This is the notch distortion. The effect works equally well at
    lower gain settings. 
    
        About a month ago I bought a Mesa Boogie studio preamp. I bought 
    it mainly for recording directly onto tape without using a power amp
    or speakers. Just to get the feel of the preamp and controls, I have
    been plugging it into the power amp input of the Twin (efx return) and 
    bi-passing the preamp section of the Twin. There are many similarities 
    in the tone, but the controls are set up vastly differant. The lead 
    tone of the Boogie preamp seems to provide a little bit smoother dis-
    tortion, but the differance is nothing to write home about. All in all, 
    I would say that (tone-wise) the preamp in the Twin is every bit as 
    versitile as the Mesa Boogie preamp (which is really cloned after the 
    Mesa Boogie Mark III combos). Each has it's advantages. The Mesa Boogie 
    preamp has the advantage of stereo, dual outputs (main and recording), 
    switchable graphic eq, and rack-mount packaging. The Twin has the advan-
    tages of multiple inputs (tri-mode operation), separate eq's for each 
    channel, assignable reverb,  and presence. Mesa Boogie didn't include a 
    presence function because they feel that the presence circuit should be a 
    part of the power-amp section. They put presence circuits on all the tube 
    power amps they make for guitar, which includes the 50/50, the 295 Simul, 
    and the Strategy 400. If you like the 100 watt power rating of the Twin,
    just think if it was a stereo amp with 100 watts per side. The Simul-295 
    is just that...95 watts of tube power per channel....Yowzer !!!

	Fact is, I wanted a preamp that would provide the same basic tones 
    as my Twin with the additional convenience of speaker emmulator outputs, 
    and rack-mount packaging. That is exactly what the Mesa Boogie studio 
    preamp provides. The spring reverb in the Boogie is very similar to the 
    Twin as well. Eventually, I would like to build a rack system around the 
    studio preamp with one of Mesa's power amps and some 1x12 cabinets. This 
    is probably a few years (and quite a few $$$) down the road. For now the 
    Twin handles all of my amplification needs quite well.

    	Mark
    

    
    It really doesn't surprise me that there are simularities between
    the Boogie and the Fender.  After all, first Boogies were mere 
    "hot rodded Fenders".
    
    What is really surprising to me is that you find the Fender Twin as
    versatile as the Boogie(If ya can't tell, I'm a Boogie MKIII owner).
    I haven't tested one of these Twins out yet, but maybe it's time I 
    mosey on down to a Fender dealer?
    
    As far as noisy tubes, I have not had that problem with my MKIII.
    
    J.

	What I alluded to in my last note, was the differance in the basic 
design of the Twin and the Boogie preamps. The Twin is very straight forward 
as far as set up is concerned. The Clean channel has it's own volume, and 3 
band eq controls which are completely independant from the Lead channel. The 
lead channel has a gain control, 3 band eq, a presence control, and a master 
vol control. The reverb can be assigned to either the clean channel, the lead 
channel or both. Set up is a breeze. Some people might not like the fact that
it is almost impossible to get a crunch rhythm tone out of the clean channel,
but you can get it from the lead channel easy enough.

	The Boogie is a differant story. The clean channel drives the lead
channel. In order to get a good lead tone out of the Boogie, the Clean vol
control must be set quite high (~6-7). Surprisingly, with the clean vol set 
at this level, the clean tone is still very clean sounding. It doesn't get 
gritty until it is cranked up to 9-10. The Clean channel also has a master 
volume control. This must be set high enough to get the clean tone to the 
appropriate output level, and also determines the effect send level.  The 
gain control for the lead channel does not necessarily have to be set high 
to get that "Singin' Boogie tone" out of the preamp. With the rhythm volume 
set at 7, the lead gain only has to be set around 2-3 for a nice sweet Lead 
tone. When cranked up to about 5, the lead channel provides lot's of grind.
The lead channel also has a lead master control. Again, this has to be set
high enough to get the desired output level. As you can see, the preamp has
a total of 4 volume controls (not including the output level controls), all 
of which affect the lead tone. This makes it somewhat tricky to set up at
first, but once you get used to it, it's pretty easy to dial up the tones
you want. The reverb on the Boogie preamp is not assignable like the Twin. 
It is either on or off for both channels depending on the footswitch. The 
switchable graphic EQ on the Boogie does make for more possible tones. I 
generally set it up for the classic V tone (with the Bass and treble fre-
quencies boosted and the mid frequencies cut). You can either set it in the 
"Auto EQ" mode in which case the EQ automatically kicks in when you are in 
the lead mode, or you can set it in the on posistion and select it from the 
footswitch. I find that if you use the rhythm bright, lead fat, and lead 
bright controls, the EQ gets to be a bit too much. If you leave both bright 
circuits off, and select only lead fat, the EQ can be used to give you a 
treble boost. This is a nice feature. I find this is the best way to utilize 
the EQ. It gives you 4 basic tones selectable from the footswitches.

	My understanding is that most Mesa Boogie amplifiers are set up like
this preamp in that the rhythm channel drives the lead channel. The end result 
is a fabulous lead tone, but the set up is tricky. Once you get used to it, 
it is no problem, but it definately is not as intuative as the Twin. 

	Lately, I have been using the Mesa Boogie preamp more than the Twin,
mainly because the newness hasn't warn off yet. I now have the Boogie connected
to my PA system in a full-stereo configuration. I have an Alesis MidiverbII 
in the efx loop of the Boogie. The results are quite impressive, even through
my PA speakers. I generally use the recording outputs of the Boogie preamp
through the PA. This has the same basic tone of a miced-up guitar amp.

	Lately, a friend of mine (who is learing to play blues harp) has
    been stopping by my house once or twice a week to jam. I generally
    plug his green bullet harp mic into my Fender Twin. I find that I
    have to be very careful to turn the treble and presence down and aim
    the amp in another direction, to prevent the crytal mic from feeding
    back. The Twin puts out a nice tone for the harp with the green bullet
    mic.
    
    Mark
    
    
    
	Mark Jacques
    

    Well, I've had my twin for about three months now and I haven't been so
    happy about owning anything as I have with this unit. In fact, I
    honestly reaffirm being so pleased with it everytime I go to rehersal.
    Last time when the boys took a break, I stayed and played just cause I
    wanted to hear my amp by itself for awhile to see if I wanted to tweek
    something.
    
    The only thing that I would advise a potential buyer who was weighing
    the difference between the Twin and a Boogie, is that I think you get a
    bigger bang for your buck with the Twin - two speakers instead of one,
    And although costly, it doesn't cost as much as a Boogie. Insofar as 
    tone, I doubt whether the audience could tell the difference (which
    doesn't really say much). 
    
    "sakman"

    
    RE:.115  Boogie's clean tone vs lead.
    
    Au contrare mon frare.  Or how ever the heck it's supposed to be 
    spelled.  ;^)
    
    On MKIII, the lead channel is independent of the clean channel.  
    However, the Crunch rhythm mode, and the clean channel are not.
    
    As far as the twin goes, I can definitely see an advantage of having 
    a separate EQ and the reverb for the different channels.
    
    J. Just a nit...

    RE:  Bart's best line ...
    
    Au contraire mon frere    8^)
    
    LeScary ...

re: J,

Not quite, J.  The circuitry for the clean channel does, in fact, drive the 
lead channel.  That's why the tone controls are for both, and why Vol 1 affects
lead mode in a big way.  They seem to work independently because of the lead
master control, but they really don't.

Au contrare??  French, J?  You're moving up in the world, eh?  ;^)

Will

    Not to butt in, but all of these restrictions are the reasons why I
    bought my Seymour-Duncan. It has 2 *totally* independent channels, each
    with their own eq, reverb *and* overdrive. Using the right combination
    of pre-amp modules you can get a nice rhythm crunch out of one channel,
    and a nice singing lead out of the other. Or squeaky clean on one, and
    blues raunch on the other. Or...
    
    The bottom line is, I love the sound of Boogies, would probably like
    the Twin as well, but I just can't understand why these manufacturers
    who are charging mega-bucks for their stuff have to skimp on the little
    stuff that makes the amps really useful (actually I have a few gripes
    with S-D on this score as well, but that's the subject for another
    note).
    
    - Ram

    That's why the KH QT rooolz!

    RE: Buck
    No, no, no....
    
    Thats why the ADA MP1 rooolz.
    
    128 different combinations of 4 band EQ, two overdrives and master
    settings...AND it's tube OR solid state...With a beautiful chorus.
    Gawd, on top of that, it's got MIDI implementation.
    
    But you knew I'd say that though, right ?
    
    ;) 
    
    jc (Who loves J's Boogie AND The Quattro)

    
    
    	256 guitar effects 256 at a time, right??

    
    
    I know, I know!  The ultimate test for these amps!
    
    Get a large pickup truck, load everyone's amp heads into the back, 
    proceed to drive upwards of say 40 mph and up, then open up the tail
    gate, and drop test these suckers!
    
    Is there anyone out there that's as confident of their amp's ruggedness
    as I am about my Boogie?
    ;^)
    
    J.  

    Well, I wouldn't drop mine to prove it but...

    
    Yeah, then just keep talkin'!  ;^)
    
    J.

    I'd put the 'ol Marshall Mosfet to that test !  For years I've been
    waiting for the &(^% thing to break down so I'd have a *valid* excuse
    to replace it !  But now ... I've got a GREAT tone out of it, so ...
    it'll probably fry tomorrow ...
    
    Scary

    Well, I woundn't be so foolish as to drop something I paid so much for
    even if it was a Boogie. But, considering the point, I will say that I am
    very confident in the ruggedness and reliability of my new Twin. I
    haven't opened it to inspect the wiring but I doubt that I would find
    anything less than top quality. Insofar as the cabinet, that too is
    just as rugged as anything I've ever seen. The covering on my amp
    (white "snakeskin") does seem a bit soft by comparison to a Peavey,
    which appears to be a polymer sprayon of some type. I'll admit I'm a
    bit nervous about my covering getting nicked and torn if I'm not real
    careful. But a cover should take care of that and I'll be having one
    made for it soon.
    
    Back to the drop test. I'll let Fender Inc. handle that for me.
    
    "sakman"
     

If I dropped the Rivera head I'd be afraid that I'd break the road :-)

dbii

    re .129
    
    I wouldn't bother to have a cover made for your' Twin. Fender offers
    amp covers as accessories. They list these in their new publication
    entitled "Frontline". When I bought my Twin, I was quite dissipointed
    that Fender didn't provide a cover with it, but I called around and
    found a dealer that had one in stock. Get a copy of Frontline and get
    the order number for the cover. I'm pretty sure you can call your'
    order in directly to Fender.
    
    	Of course, the ultimate would be to get a road case for the Twin,
    but this, of course, adds additional weight to an amp that is already
    a "beast of burden".
    
    Mark
    

    Ok J.!  I'll take you on!  You go first ;-)
    
    Mike

>    <<< Note 395.125 by CSC32::H_SO "Hyundai insider: I drive a Chevy" >>>
>    
>    Get a large pickup truck, load everyone's amp heads into the back, 
>    proceed to drive upwards of say 40 mph and up, then open up the tail
>    gate, and drop test these suckers!
 
My current Twin Reverb was dropped of the back of a pickup-truck, landing
on one of the corners in the upper front. It has Altecs & weighs in at
around 110 lbs. Needless to say, the case was damaged beyond repair.
However, I bought it soon after this accident very very cheaply. They
even threw in a new set of tubes. I made a new case (with a 2 high
19 inch rack in the top part) & have used it for the last 6 years
(at least 250 paying gigs). I'd say that's pretty good. Now If we can
just find a pick-up truck to test your boogie with....

							Jens

    BTW - how much are new twins running these days ?
    
    Scary (lOOking ....)

    Sllllaaaaaapppp !
    
    Dude, *what* is wrong with you ?  First a strat, now a twin ?
    
    What ever happened to:
    
    "Hey Coop, check out this Celtic Frost CD man, it's kinda whimpy,
     you might like it !"
    
    ??
    
    ;)

    Hey I still love it, I just can't play it !  Blues stuff is more my
    forte anyway ... me playing with a Marshall now is kinda like hauling
    dirt with a Miata ... nope ...
    
    See, Rick (other guitar player in my band) has a Super Reverb and it's
    sweet for clean tones, and I been sneaking and playing it !
    
    BTW - you gotta lot of room to talk ... Les Pauls indeed ... and I
    won't even mention the fact that you said you *liked* some of MC
    Hammer's stuff ...   8^)
    
    Scary (... can't touch this ... wagagagga ...)

    I only said that cuz Cindi was sitting there dude !
    ;)

      Hey Scary - while your entertaining new amps in the blues groove
    I would give some consideration to the Bedrock 1204, it's like a 
    up to date Fender Bassman 4X10. I tried one when I was first checking
    out KH's at a store in Portsmouth, NH. VERY Bluesy!
      Are you still using the M3 or did you sell it? 
    
    							-BooM-

    
    	Hey Scarymon, JB Lee sells Bedrock.  Maybe you should test drive
    	one?  None of you 3rd shifters need sleep anyways, right?
    
    	;^)

    Last I knew, Ted Herberts in Manchester was selling twins for about $900.
    As you get prices, including used (that is if you can find them, I can't 
    envision me selling mine in favor of something else), could you post
    them? I'd be interested to know.
    
    "sakman"     SSFD (Super Satisfied Fender Dude) 

    
    	I've seen new "The Twins" for $795 at Clark Music in Atlanta.  
    	404-876-0011. 
    
    	-pat

    	Scary, you can go out and buy an old Twin for under $450 fer
    	sure.  if you want clean, then that is the way to go.
    
    	Speaking of playing clean, I've been meaning to reply to db's
    	note about the vintage Fenders and the *ultimate* clean sound.
    
    	As one who has played through a Twin for (gee Dave, how long's
    	it been?) a few years now I'd have to say that for full, ballsy,
    	clean tones, Fenders can't be beat.  Some of the old vintage
    	single speaker Fenders are great for that slightly overdriven
    	tube sound as well.
    
    	I finally bought a Marshall head to go with my 4x10 cab and ya
    	can't beat it for crunch and "that Marshall sound".  I was con-
    	sidering selling my Twin for awhile, but have decided to keep
    	it cuz it for clean stuff, Fender wrote the book, but.....
    
    	I really liked the sound of Rick C's. .22 Calibre Boogie for
    	clean.  It had a more pristine clean sound than the Fender.
    	Really glassy, almost compressed.
    
    	Silly me, thinking I could find one amp that does it all --
    	it just doesn't exist!
    
    	joe.

>    	Silly me, thinking I could find one amp that does it all --
>    	it just doesn't exist!

    I'm with ya on that one Joe!  I'm becoming totally convinced of that.

    Greg

    Well, I bought a Chandler Tube Driver today .. so that'll give me a
    good warm tube sound, plus the GP-8/MOSFET Marshall combo is squeaky
    clean, so I think I'll give up on the Twin idea ... for now ...
    
    Scary

    Insert sound of hand slapping forehead...
    
    Sheeesh, y'all are fickle !
    
    Joe, doncha think that MArshall sounds good cleaned up too ?
    jc

    I just got a catalog from a mail order dist. that I have never heard
    of "Sun Coast Music Dist".  They have Fender "The Twin" amps for
    $750.00  I would imagine, however, that the shipping charges would
    mark up the price by as much as $100.00
    
    Just one of the many disadvantages of buying mail order.  
    
    Joe, before you draw a conclusion that no amp can do both well,
    stop by my house and try playing through my Twin, and then try
    playing through my Mesa Boogie studio preamp. You'll be surprised.
    Both rigs do clean and crunch very well. 
    
    Mark
    
    

    
    
    
    	Scary, yer gonna like the tube driver!!!   Just for fun.. turn the
    hi EQ off nd turn the Low EQ to 10 set OD to about 6-7... what do you
    think??  Oh yeah, with this ultra low tone I have to have the output to
    at least 6.. hee hee...  Mine sounds like the "M" word when I do this.
    
    
    
    Steve
    
    Gree Vee King and the Grevemasters Rooolz

    I used it once before, but I was playing in a country band and didn't
    EVER get to use any Overdrive !  I'm gonna air it out tonight.  Cool
    thing about being in that country band though ... a lot of times during
    soundchecks I'd play the intro to "Fade To Black" by Metallica, and the
    gang would say, in their best sounthern drawl .... "'at's a purdee
    little song.  Who does that ?  Maybe we can learn it so's people can
    slow daince."  Imagine, slow dancing to Metallica ... wagagagaga ...
    
    Scary

That's it. I had my first rehearsel with my new band, giving me a chance
to test my Twin on higher volume level again (my neighbours are not having
the same musical interest as I have, sorry for them :^}). This time, I
tried my LP goldtop, and what a sound! Even when I played on low level 
(didn't happen very much of the time:)), it had a very distinct sound, ea-
sy to be heard from all the other instruments...I had been playing my Gary
Levinson Blade (strat) for a very long time with my last band, but this
experience sure brings my LP back in the picture...

I've got an idea for an even better sound: I'm thinking about getting my-
self two single cabinets, equipped with 2X12 EVM speakers each. Those I
would place beside each other, angled slightly outwards to get a 'broader'
sound picture, then my Twin resting on top of it. I'll have to count out
the best possible combination of impedance when connecting it...I consider
parallel connection before serial...any comments on this?

Poul

    Regarding series/parallel.  Whatever you do, the impedance the amp
    sees must match the setting of the impedance switch on the back of 
    the amp. Fender printed the formulas for figuring impedance right 
    on the back of the amp, so there is no excuse for not matching it 
    properly. 
    
    Here's a couple of possible scenarios.
    
    1. Let's say the cabinets you buy have two 16 ohm speakers wired in
    parallel. The result is the cabinet is an 8 ohm load. Two of these
    cabs in parallel is 4 ohms. The amp can handle 4 ohms, as long as the
    selector switch is set to 4 ohms. 
    
    2. Let's say the cabinets you buy have two 8 ohm speakers wired in
    parallel. The result is the cabinet is a 4 ohm load. I would wire the
    two cabs in series for a total of 8 ohms, and set the switch to 8 ohms.
    
    3. Let's say the cabinets you buy have two 8 ohm speakers wired in
    series for a 16 ohm load. Wire the two cabs in parallel for 8 ohms 
    total.
     
    	There are other ways of doing it, but the results must match the
    setting on the amp, and the two cabinets should be of equal impedance.
    Personally, I wouldn't bother adding so many speakers to a Twin reverb.
    If I wanted a bigger sound, I would probably just add a single 2x12 cab
    since the Twin already has 2 12" speakers in it. 4 12 inch speakers can
    certainly move plenty of air, especially with the Twin's 100 watt power
    amp driving them.
    
    Mark

Thanks for your input, Mark. I know how to count out the impedance, and I
know that I have to set the switch also. My thoughts were more general, is
it preferable to put speakers in parallel or serial. I think the best is
parallel, then one speaker would have no influence on the other. A speaker
will have a dynamic impedance, that vary with the signal, as well as it
could differ a bit from one speaker to the other.

But how do you consider the idea having two cabinets angled a bit out-
wards (I think it's a fine idea, but I don't remember to have seen it any-
where before)?

Poul

    How about angled out AND up Poul ?
    Seems to me no matter what you do the cabs are only two or three feet
    high, and the sound shoots betwixt your legs...
    
    jc

    	When I am playing either of my Fender guitars, I generally try
    to minimize hum by positioning myself and the amp in such a way
    so that hum is at a minimum, and my ability to hear myself is at
    a max. The more cabs you use, and the more you spread out your
    sound, the harder it is to "hide" from the hum. 
    
	I know a better approach is to avoid hum altogether by using
    quiet pickups (ie. EMG's FLS's, humbuckers) but I just don't feel
    like swapping pickups in either of my Fender guitars.
    
    Mark
    

     Au contraire mon frere; the cabinets aren't your problem.......
    it's the lighting or electrical wiring or some other magnetic
    interference causing it other wise the hum would change with
    the note being played!
    -Bill

    Re: parallel vs. serial
    
    The advantage of parallel over serial:
    
    If any one speaker in a serial chain blow up, you have broken the
    chain, and you now have *no* load on your amp....if it's a tube amp,
    there goes your output transformer.  Plus, your brilliant solo gets
    chopped off rather abruptly.  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    In a parallel setup, any one speaker blows, you still have one or more
    connected and the impedance will go *up*, which should keep your
    transformer happy.
    
    Many cabs using more than 2 drivers use serial/parallel combos, that's
    how the old Ampeg cabs that could be switched from 4 to 16 ohms worked.
    
    
    							Brian

    I think there's only a handful of us here who have "the Twin". I'm
    wondering if any of you are having the same experience with yours as I
    am mine. I'm not sure if either item below is a problem or a 
    "characteristic", perhaps you can help.
    
    #1. This is one loud amp! Fercrissakes I can't even get mine up to two
    without overpowering everybody else in the band, and we play loud. Lord
    pity the person who stands in front of this amp after someone has
    hotrodded it with these new hipowered, bigtime blastboost,
    firebreathing output tubes like KT90's(?).  Anyway, here's the thing, 
    I play with the distortion channel's gain set to about six. 
    I like that amount of "crunch". The problem is that the
    master volume has a real sharp knee just below 1 where its either too
    low or too loud for playing at a comfortable level *at home* (where
    I try to keep the disturbance to the rest of the family at a minimum).  
    
    
    #2. Now that I'm using the amp at home as opposed to a 
    setting with bandmates (I can hear the subtleties), I notice a metallic 
    "ring" coming from inside the amp, not the speakers. But from the
    speakers, I do hear a hum of sorts that dissappears after a few
    seconds. This somehow seems related to the reverb as I can squelch the
    hum by turning off the reverb. Its as if the reverb is too high, except
    that it's not - I keep it at 2.
    
    Now like I said, now that I'm playing it at home I might be listening
    to something thats just a characteristic, and not a problem. And being 
    from the "aw shit, just play the sumbitch" school electric guitar, I have 
    been of the attitude "if it ain't smokin' it ain't broke". But I may have a
    problem thats easily fixed. 
    
    
    What say you?
    
    "sakman"
    

    The reverb is driven by a tube. I think it's a 12AT7. I'd try changing
    this tube if the reverb is noisy. 
    
    The Twin is a loud amp. I use mine in the low power mode all the time.
    Mine has emminence speakers and I have never even considered replacing
    them with something more efficient. 
    
    I know what you mean about the knee in the lead volume control. My
    experience is that all amps with a high-gain channel tend to do the
    same thing. The Marshalls and Boogies I've tried do the same thing. 
    
    Mark
    

    >I know what you mean about the knee in the lead volume control. My
    >experience is that all amps with a high-gain channel tend to do the
    >same thing. The Marshalls and Boogies I've tried do the same thing. 
    
    Well dude, you obviously ain't tried the JCM 900 series yet!  The
    "knee" in the master volume control happens between 6-7, not between
    1-2!!!  So, you have 1-6 to play around with a WORKABLE volume!  The
    only nit being when the MV is down that low, the sustain is real
    compressed sounding ala Boogie (aka it don't crunch til 6).

    Ok...well, you have the dual-reverb model...I have the non-reverb Mark
    III...also, I've noticed that there is no "1-2 knee" on the 5owt heads
    and combos...you have a 100wt, right?  Maybe those get louder
    quicker???
    
    Buck, who swears he doesn't have a 1-2 knee!

    Oh come on now Buck, you know damn well that you've never had your
    master volume down in the 1-2 range...
    
    ;^)
    
    Seriously, just about every amp I've ever owned that had a master
    volume had a 'knee' somewhere in the low range (1-3).  It's pretty
    annoying, since it always seems to be RIGHT between the two volumes you
    need for a nice low volume practice or jam.
    
    The only exception was my old 100wt Hiwatt combo.  I don't remember any
    'knee' at all in it, but I didn't use the master volume much because it
    flat sounded terrible with just the preamp volume cranked, so I cranked
    'em both.  
    
    Kind of an aside, that was really a pretty sounding amp with both the
    master and channel volume cranked up to about 2/3 open.  Kind of clean
    and VERY responsive to how you played.  It also SCREAMED when you
    cranked it all the way open.  Problem was that you couldn't stay in the
    same room with it because it was so loud!  I used a power soak on it to
    trim off about half it's power so that it was tolerable.  Not very
    practical, but WHAT an incredible tone!!!
    
    Greg

    Nope Larry, I can't say I have, and I have two; a "twin" and an M80. 
    You sure its the amp and not your ears
    playin tricks on you, ie has someone else noted this phenomonon?
    
    "sakman"

    It happens with Mesa's.......it bothered me at first,but after
    while it became less noticeable
    
    Rick
    

re: the knee in the master volume

Basically it'll happen with any electronic device.  It happens on stereos.  The
reason is this:

Your ears percieve loudness logorithmically (spelling?) and the pot (the knob
you're turning) is linear.  That is it takes something like (the numbers may be 
off but the concept is valid) 10 times the power (watts) to only double the
loudness your ears hear.

So if you're running 1 watt, it'll sound so loud.  Turn it up to 10 watts and
it's a LOT louder.  Say, you just went from 2 to 3 on your knob.   Well, if you 
then turn it up from 3 to 4, you only add ten watts because the knob is linear,
but you ears don't hear that much of difference, because 20 watts isn't anywhere
near 10 times 10 (100).

So the difference between 2 and 3 on the knob is much bigger to your ears than
the difference between 3 and 4.  So there's the knee.


Also, on a much different topic, similar idea:

About intonation, and why the high strings get shorter physically to be in tune:

At low frequencies you ears hear a freqeuncy doubling as an octave.  Like the
note A above middle C is 440 hertz.  One octave (12 frets) up is A at 880 hertz.
And your ear hears it that way.  That makes the A on the high E string on the 
17th fret all the way up to 3520 hertz.  Up there your ear will hear 3520 hertz
to be just a little flat.  So the fix is to shorten the string so as you fret 
higher and higher the string gets shorter faster than it "should."  So instead
of 3520, it's probably more like, I don't know, maybe 3600, and it doesn't 
sound flat anymore.

On pianos, the tuners know this and they do what's called "stretching" the 
keyboard.  They tune the high strings higher than the math would say it should
be.




Just thought this stuff was neat when I learned it and I'd pass it along,
Will

>About intonation, and why the high strings get shorter physically to be in tune:
>
>At low frequencies you ears hear a freqeuncy doubling as an octave.  Like the
>note A above middle C is 440 hertz.  One octave (12 frets) up is A at 880 hertz.
>And your ear hears it that way.  That makes the A on the high E string on the 
>17th fret all the way up to 3520 hertz.  Up there your ear will hear 3520 hertz
>to be just a little flat.  So the fix is to shorten the string so as you fret 
>higher and higher the string gets shorter faster than it "should."  So instead
>of 3520, it's probably more like, I don't know, maybe 3600, and it doesn't 
>sound flat anymore.
>
>On pianos, the tuners know this and they do what's called "stretching" the 
>keyboard.  They tune the high strings higher than the math would say it should
>be.

Will,

	This stuff is neat, I thought I knew about audio and the ears
characteristics. You have really got me thinking (instead of going home!)

I have a question......

If your ear really "hears" high frequencies a little flat, then how come if I 
tune the 12 fret top "E" by using a drone note with the bottom (open) E string
by listening to the difference tone (probably one or two hertz) and tuning it 
to zero, it will sound OK. My amp will be doing the "listening" and giving me 
the low frequency where my ears will be hearing "real" pitch.

I *thought* the bridge saddle "shortening" was due to the different string 
diameters having to be compensated for.

I also *thought* that piano tuners tuned off from the math pitch to create a
deliberate set of modulation frequencies so that the piano sounded "lively"

I also used to wonder why the moon looked bigger when it was near the horizon,
till I found out that the brain sees it the right size when it is overhead, 
but overcompensates when trying to compare it with trees/houses etc when over 
the horizon so it appears bigger!

It is getting late and my brain (and ears) are going round in circles on 
this....time to go home......any thoughts on the above?

Dave

    Sorry for the rat-hole discussion but...
    
>I also used to wonder why the moon looked bigger when it was near the horizon,
>till I found out that the brain sees it the right size when it is overhead, 
>but overcompensates when trying to compare it with trees/houses etc when over 
>the horizon so it appears bigger!
    
    I would challenge that theory.  Hold something up to cover your
    reference points (such as a sheet of paper with a hole cut in it) and
    the moon will still appear larger when it's near the horizon.  I always
    heard this was due to the additional air (and contaminates in it) which
    the light is going through as you look at it on the horizon causing
    magnification of the observed object. 
    
    Don't know anything about why you have to compensate guitar strings
    though...
    
    Greg
             

re: ears and stuff

You got me.  I don't know all the ins and outs of it.  I came across the info 
talking to my keyboard player and it fit all sorts of symptoms I had seen for 
years.  

Like when I tune with my electronic tuner, if I tune it exactly by the tuner, 
it's just a hair off, I have to adjust it by ear just a little.  The tuner will
be the math reference that's a little off.

The high E string bridge saddle on my strat is WAY shorter than the other ones
to get the intonation right

The thing with the pianos tuned like that.

The other thing I remember hearing about is the twelve tones on the chromatic
scale are not quite evenly spaced.  They're just a touch out from where the 
math would put them, just because that's where your ear likes to hear them.  
It's one of the reasons why synthesizing a true piano sound is so difficult.

And from music class in collage:  Things like F# is not really the same note as
Gb.  On a piano they compromise, but with horns you can play it exact

I really don't know all the factors, it seems really complicated to me.

Will (equally amazed by the way ears work)

	Sakman,

	I'd like to discuss your question about a 'The Twin' on a
	Marshall cab in this note - if you don't mind ;^)

	I also like the idea, I think it will produce more like a
	'wall' of sound - however, a few questions come to my mind;
	will it be too many speakers for 'The Twin' to feed? I
	think not, as a 100W Marshall full stack will handle 8 spea-
	kers, and this setup would only be 6 speakers.

	How about the clean sound of 'The Twin'? As I know of, one
	of the important factors is the sound of the factory deli-
	vered Emminence speakers - how will it sound when mixed
	with Celestion speakers?

	Hmmm, maybe one could think of building a cab with 4X12"
	JBLs, or EVs, or maybe even a combination of 10" and 12",
	or, or,...;^)

	Or perhaps the best thing would be a 4X12 cab with Emminence
	speakers (if you can get them separate)??

	Poul

    >	Or perhaps the best thing would be a 4X12 cab with Emminence
    >	speakers (if you can get them separate)??
    
    JUST SAY NOooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
    
    Emminence speakers are the WORST!!!

    Hi Poul,
    
    Insofar as the speaker loading, that'd be no problem at all for "the
    Twin". Just plug the sumbitch in the extension speaker jack I'd expect.
    
    Now as for losing the virtue of the clean Fender sound, damn that's a
    different story. I hadn't really thought about that strangely enough.
    I was thinking the other way around that the overdrive channel might
    sound great thru a Marshall cab. But to tell the truth, I was really
    thinking that it'd be a cool looking settup; sorta slutty. And truly if
    I had such a setup with my solid black Strat and a LP Gold top, I'd be
    rollin in babes for sure. But then I'd have to do more than just play
    by myself in my music room (although I am thinking about coming 
    outta retirement to put a blues/jazz gig together). 
    
    "sakman" 

    >If I had such a setup with my solid black Strat and a LP Gold top, I'd be
    >rollin in babes for sure.
    
    I found that after I stopped using my green Precison and switched to a
    black Steinberger that the number of babes I was able to score at gigs
    increased by a factor of four.
    
    						John Holmes    

    Obviously, Mr. Holmes, they thought you were playing with a long scale
    unit...
    
    Edd

    RE: -.1 
    
    Bwhaaaaahahahahahahahahaaa...
    
    Ahem.  I digree, the wimmen folk definately like pointed headstocks
    better than strats and LP's...  Especially hot pink Ibanez (right 
    Buck ?) !
    
    Well - at least the ladies a quarter of a century old and younger.
    :)
    
    jc 

    Yeah but Coop, the women that like the pointy headstocks, are, uhm,
    well, never mind........
    
    8^)

    EXACTLY !
    
    jc - (retired, but still collecting...umm, undergarments :)

    RE: .173
    
    Yeah, but four times nothing is still nothing...
    
    
    ...I'm waiting till you find something that'll increase it by a factor
    of six...
    
    :^)

Jerry White wanted me to ask a question of you Fender Twin experts out there:

Can you pull two of the power tubes out a Twin in order to reduce the wattage?
If so, which two would you pull?

alan

P.S. Hey Greg! Scary says "tell Greg to hurry up with my guitar!" 8^)

    Also note that Jerry's amp is the blackface reissue Twin, if that makes
    a difference in which tubes to pull.
    
>P.S. Hey Greg! Scary says "tell Greg to hurry up with my guitar!" 8^)
    
    Big surprise there...  You'll probably be helpin me with his guitar
    when you get out here.  ;^)
    
    Greg

   Like Marshalls, you should be able to pull two tubes. It will also depends
if you have muliple output taps off the output transformer. I'm not shure which
way it goes, but you'll have to take your speakers and connect to either a 
higher or lower (Ohms) output.
   If you don't have multi-taps or a switch, I'm not shure what you could do.
I don't have my book with me now.


/J

    WHAT? Leave all the tubes in amp (this ain't no Marshall yo messin' wit)
    and buy an external effect to get the sound you want. Fenders like to
    see all the tubes *in* their respected sockets. Otherwise all bets are
    off on reliability. 
    
    My 2 cents....
    
    	Rock on,
    		 Fred

>    WHAT? Leave all the tubes in amp (this ain't no Marshall yo messin' wit)
>    and buy an external effect to get the sound you want. Fenders like to
>    see all the tubes *in* their respected sockets. Otherwise all bets are
>    off on reliability. 
    


  You may be *Totally* right. It depends on how the output transformer is
set up. The tubes like to see a certain impedance. If the impedance on the
output of the transformer is not correct (by connecting a certain speaker
impedance to the same-ohm tap - or non-correct tap) you will be jeopardizing
your tubes, power supply and transformer. Fenders may not be as resilliant
as the Marshall'.



/J

From Jerry White:

Hi kids !  8^)

I talked with the Fender folks on the phone, made sure they understood I 
had a reissue 65 Twin, etc.  The guy said, 'pull the middle 2'.  'Won't 
hurt it ?', I replied.  'Nah, pull the middle 2, you'll be all set'.  So I 
did.  Results:
- I didn't see a lot of reduction in power.  
- The tone was considerably mushier, no more hyper_clean Twin now !
- It didn't sound too hot using a distortion unit (Real Tube pedal), 
  sounded more compressed than distorted.

It got me through the weekend, but I'm heading to buy more 6L6's today.

Jerry (who's not Scary now that he's no longer in Palmer's army ... 8^)

    I may be wrong, but don't you need to re-bias when you pull tubes
    like this?  (If so, I'm surprised they didn't mention it at Fender).
    Especially your comment about sounding "mushier";  I wouldn't expect
    just reducing the number of power tubes to cause this, but it's classic
    bias problem symptom.
    
    /rick

    Rick,
    	I agree! I always thought that if you retube (let alone rip two out)
    you need to recheck/reset your bias voltage on Fenders. More and more
    amp manufacturers are eliminating that adjustment (ie. Mesa and PV),
    but I thought Fender left that adjustment in...  I might be wrong
    though....  
    
    Personally, I'd put some Sovtek 5881's in that Twin amp, adjust the bias
    and let her rip!
    
    		Rock on,
    	    		Fred (who_uses_Sovtek's_in_his_Mesa_and_PV_rigs)

    I agree with the Fender folks.

    Pulling two tubes results in a change in output impedence. What happens
    is that the impedence on the primary (tube side) of the xformer doubles
    and so for a proper match, the secondary (spkr side) of the Twin output
    xformer would like to see 8 ohms rather than the normal 4 ohm load
    provided by the 2x12" spkrs.

    But running it in this configuration (improper spkr load) is no
    different than plugging in a second speaker cabinet which Fender always
    considered perfectly exceptable.

    As far as rebiasing goes, yeah, that might be a good idea.

    --Ron

  The bias would have a tendancy to go up (more negative) because there is
less of a load on the bias circuit. It probably would only change a couple
of volts.


J/

  Actually, in class AB1 tube output circuits ( used in virtually all
higher-power tube amps ) the grids of the output tubes are never
driven positive, and therefore draw no current.  As such, they
represent no load whatsoever, and removing two tubes should cause
no fluctuation of bias voltage. 

  What might change is the idling plate voltage.  Since the output 
transformer is only carrying half of the current it was with four tubes,
the DC resistance of the windings will cause only half of the voltage
drop that existed previously.  Winding resistances are low, however,
so this change in voltage should be negligible.  Of more interest is 
the change in power supply output voltage due to the decrease in idle
current.  With a poorly regulated supply, the increase in supply voltage
could be significant.  But I doubt this would be the case with any
decent name_brand amp ( e.g. Fender ).  Idle current represents a 
small fraction of the supply's capabilities ( full power ) and the 
regulation should ( will ) be good at idle current levels.

  Since tubes typically have small variations in their characteristics,
some may consider it worthwhile to 'tweak' the bias ( using a 'scope
or one of those cathode-current monitors ) in case the 'optimal' value 
for the remaining two tubes is not equal to the optimum value that was
set for the previous four tube setup.  I doubt it to be worth the effort.
Fender doesn't seem to think so.  Neither does Aspen Pittman ( see TTABv3 ).

  Two cautions:  if you wish to measure these voltages, note:

         1) Use a HIGH-IMPEDANCE device ( ~10MegOhms ) to measure grid bias.
            The meter WILL load the grid circuit significantly, especially
            something like a 20K ohm Simpson VOM.  This can damage your
	    tubes if too much time is spent taking the measurement, and
	    WILL give a false ( too low/not negative enough ) reading.

	 2) Be EXTREMELY careful measuring output plate voltages. 
            Meter load is not a consequence, but cheap test leads
	    can have insulation breakdown and cause problems like
	    permanent death, etc.  Most meter manufacturers these
	    days think their customers are measuring voltages in
	    solid-state circuits ( seldom much over 100 volts ).
	    500 + volts is LETHAL.		

    Has anyone checked out the "new" Twin yet? The control panel looks 
    like the same panel used on the new "Super". 
    
    	It looks nice, but...
    
    
    		Curious Fred