Conference napalm::guitar

    Was there any details on how it worked?
    
    Pitch to MIDI? (Slow) Some sort of string/fret contact grid?
    
    Edd

	Another new guitar MIDI controller was mentioned in the latest 
Eloctronic Musician as being a 'serious toy'.  It is from Suzuki (!) and
has a list price of $300.

	Dan

    
    
    Re: .1
    
    I think the Casio is supposed to be Roland-like (i.e. pitch-to-voltage)
    but with the external hardware mounted in the guitar body...
    
    So how do you power it????
    
    

    I tried the Roland in a store this weekend.
    
    I can't figure the tracking out on the darn thing.  On the one hand,
    it seems to track incredibly fast because when I slide my finger
    up a string, it plays a true glissando at speed with every note.
    
    On the other hand, when I just play the thing normally at a reasonable
    speed, it seems to screw up too frequently to be very useful.
    
    But I should say that I could easily believe that the unit being
    demoed was not setup properly.  The people at the store didn't
    seem to know very much about it.
    
    	db

    
    
    
    re .4
    
    Dave, that glissando you got from the Roland by sliding your finger
    up the string isn't quite the same as the actual tracking of the
    guitar.  There is a switch on the instrument that will allow the
    gliss feature, or disable it.  It not only works by running your
    finger up the string, but also if you bend a string a half step
    or more.  Disabled, the guitar reacts just like a conventional
    guitar.
    
    I seriously looked at the roland when it first came out, but I wasn't
    really happy with the way it tracked.  It was too easy to outplay
    on a solo.  On the other hand chordal work sounded really nice.
    Supposedly (what they told me at Daddy's) the unit can be tweaked
    to the point it plays almost flawlessly.  Unfourtunatley, I tried
    almost a dozen units at various music stores and none of them
    tracked to my satisfaction.
    
    I'd like to try one of these new units.  At the price, I could learn
    to deal with the inadaquacies.  But at the original list of the
    Roland >$2000, I couldn't justify the expense.  
    
    ralph
    
    

    Has anyone tried sequencing one of these units? I'd be particularly
    interested in using a guitar patch with a guitar controller in order
    to have a rythym 'sequence'. 
    
    I'm concerned about the 'time' between notes played while strumming
    a chord....
    
    Any comments?
    
    Edd
    

The pitch-to-MIDI systems on guitars take one-half-of-the-note-frequency
to sample and fire the note-ons over MIDI.  Thus the delay is a function
of the note that is being played.  Low E notes take longer to sample than
do high E notes, and thus introduce more note-on delay.

It is nearly impossible for a controller based on this principle (pitch
to MIDI) to work "flawlessly".  Don't trust a salesman, Dave.  But you
knew that anyway...

Todd (Arp Avatar owner).

    
    Well, I still haven't seen this supposed MIDI guitar controller
    from Casio, but they have also introduced a low priced self-contained
    guitar synth.  The model is DG-20 (for digital guitar?) and it's
    on the last page of the J.C. Penney's Christmas catalog for $360,
    not including batteries.
    
    Here's the poop:
    
    It apears to be all plastic, neck and all.  20 fret neck, no tuners(!!)
    and no whammy.  The top panel has voice selectors to pick two electric
    guitar sounds, two acoustics, piano, organ, brass, etc.  It also
    has on-board rhythm box and Casio chord functions, not unlike most
    of their keyboards.  Also an on-board speaker, plus line and headphone
    outs and.... a MIDI port!!!!!!!
    
    Simialrly, Suzuki has introduced two plastic digital guitars in
    the $300 price range.  The XG-1 has twelve frets, no tuners, electronic
    whammy, and separate picking and fretting "strings" like a SynthAxe.
     The XG-1 has on-board speaker, Casio-like voices, rhythm box,
    auto-chord, etc.  The XG-1M throws away all the home organ features
    in favor of a MIDI port and two-track on-board sequencer.
    
    While I doubt I would even think of buying one, I definitely want
    to try these babies out when they hit the stores for real.
                                                                  

    I saw one of the Casio MIDI guitars at Hampshire Music in Nashua,
    NH the other day. It's a strat copy guitar with MIDI or regular
    guitar output. The guitar itself is not bad - I guess about what
    you would expect from any reasonably good Japanese strat. I didn't
    try it through an amp, but it played fairly nicely. The salespeople
    couldn't figure out what was wrong with it, because the MIDI out
    wasn't working, so I couldn't get to try that either (they said
    it was working the day before). In any case, the thing can run off
    batteries or an AC adapter. I liked the way the controls were laid
    out. The price tag on it was something like $649.

    I did get to play an Ibanez, which the salespeople said was inferior
    to the Casio. I was not at all impressed with this. It was probably
    set up very poorly, but I wasn't at all comfortable with it. The
    tracking was slow, as has been discussed before, and it couldn't
    keep up with even very simple melodic lines. What was even more
    bothersome to me was the way it handled bends. Instead of bending
    the notes like you would expect with a pitch wheel, it would just
    suddenly jump up a half tone. I don't know if this is a restriction
    on the instrument, the MIDI interface, or just the way it was set
    up, but since I use bending heavily for expression it was totally
    unacceptable for me. I didn't ask the price.

    I didn't get the exact model numbers on either of these. The
    salespeople seem to be very uneducated on how to operate these things,
    so I would suggest if you try one insist on seeing a copy of the
    user's manual and allow plenty of time to try setting it up yourself.

    - Ram

    It took me a while to find this note, but I wanted to update it
    because I finally got to try out the Casio MIDI guitar in a good
    situation. The guitar looks like a typical Strat copy (all of the
    ones I have seen are black), and feels comfortable to play. There
    is no whammy bar. As Brian said, it operates as a regular guitar,
    MIDI controller, or both simultaneously.
    
    The guitar part has the following controls:
    
    1 volume, 1 tone, 1 5-position pickup selector switch. There are
    two coil and one humbucking (bridge position) pickups, in addition
    to the MIDID pickup. I didn't check to see what combination the
    pickup switch selects.
    
    The MIDI part has the following controls:
    
    - Power ON/OFF (external source or battery)
    - MIDI volume control
    - Mode switch (Guitar/MIDI/both)
    - Octave selector (Normal/Up/Down)
    - Program switch (as Brian said, when the switch is on you select
    one of up to 96 MIDI programs by fretting the strings)
    
    It also has a built-in tuner, which is just a couple of arrows that
    light up to show you whether a string is high or low. There are
    no controls on this, but it apparently works for all of the strings,
    either open or 12th fret harmonics, without any adjustments. I was
    told it is important to be tuned to this in order for the MIDI
    interface to work properly.
    

    My impressions:
    
    The thing was hooked up to a fairly simple MIDI synth with
    pre-programmed sounds, and both guitar and synth were going through
    a PA system. I didn't really try it out just as a guitar, which
    would require using a guitar amp.
    
    I was very impressed with it, and really enjoyed playing it because
    of the different kinds of things I could do that aren't possible
    on a regular electric. I think this is primarily because of the
    added sustain. How long a note sustains depends on how the synth
    is programmed, but it was really nice to be able to hit an open
    string or chord and have it sustain continuously while other things
    are being done melodically. I was able to produce some nice harmonic
    effects this way. It was also really nice to play leads that sounded
    like a flute or a sax. I found that I was led to play quite differently
    than I normally do, since things hung on a lot longer.
    
    As far as the tracking speed, I was quite satisfied. It's true that
    I was able to beat it when I played really fast, especially pulling
    off a sequence of notes, which is something I do a lot. But the
    response seems to be largely a function of which MIDI program is
    selected. Ones that had a quick attack tracked a lot better than
    ones with a relatively slow signal rise time. It would depend on
    the style you are playing, but in general I found it kept up with
    me well enough to be satisfying. Another point is that when both
    the MIDI and guitar are selected the guitar output sort of covers
    up for any glitches in the MIDI output. For example, if you dropped
    a note in a quick sequence because of the tracking it wouldn't be
    noticed because it would still sound on the guitar side.
    
    I also found that the response to bends is a function of the MIDI
    program. I don't know enough about MIDI to know how this is controlled,
    but I found that some programs followed my bends exactly, while
    others stayed on the fretted note. Again, having both the MIDI and
    guitar on is useful in this respect. I was able to get some interesting
    effects by having the guitar side bend while the MIDI side stayed
    on the fretted note. It just sounds like a keyboard and a guitar
    playing the same melody, with the guitar adding tonal variations.
    
    As you can probably tell, I had a lot of fun with this. I played
    it at Acton Music, and they let me fool around with it as long as
    I wanted. They are selling them for $750. Of course, you have to
    have a MIDI synth too. My understanding is that the cheapest ones
    are the Casio's for about $299 new.
    
    P.S.: I also want to say something about Acton Music, because I have
    bad-mouthed them in previous notes. I don't know if they have new
    management, but it seems to be a lot improved over the past. They
    actually had some Guild's and Martin's in there, and they let me play
    anything I wanted with no hassles. The guy even *thanked* me for coming
    in. Now there's a refreshing attitude for a music store!
    
    - Ram 

    Just to clear up a few points in .10:
    
    The Casio fender Strat MIDI guitar is model MG-510. It does have a
    whammy bar. The built in tuner's pitch can be adjusted by switchs in
    the back (DIP switch under back plate). The bends can be switched on or
    off (for half tone jumps) by a switch on the front. As far as the
    tracking being related to the MIDI patch selected, this doesn't make
    sense. The attack time of the MIDI patch will be added to and tracking
    delay, but is definitely independant.
    
    pcv
    

    Thanks for your clarification. Maybe the whammy bar wasn't installed
    on the unit I was playing. I understand what you are saying about
    the tracking, but my experience was contrary to your description.
    Some of the programs responded very quickly to fingering changes,
    others were a lot slower. The difference was not subtle. I could
    be wrong about how the attack was programmed as being the cause of
    this, because I don't know that much about MIDI, but if that's not
    the case you'll have to come up with another explanation.

    - Ram

    The guitar is probably using a pitch to MIDI converter. This process
    inherently causes a delay inveresely proportional to the pitch being
    played.
    
    In order for the converter to trigger the synth, it must first
    determine what note is being played so that it may generate the
    proper MIDI note-on message. To do this it "listens" to the frequency
    of each string to determine the CPS. It takes longer to determine
    the pitch on low strings because it takes longer for the (minimum)
    1 cycle to occur.
    
    Once the note had been determined, the appropriate MIDI message
    is generated and the synth responds in the same amount of time it
    would as if a key on a keyboard controller had been depressed.
    Tracking delay is independent of patch selection, but could easily
    be misinterpreted.
    
    I tried a Roland pitch to MIDI converter at LaSalles. When I first
    picked up the guitar and played a low E string, I was convinced
    it wasn't plugged in, as there was no particular relationship
    between hitting the string and the subsequent sound. (I didn't
    realize *I* had made the sound!) Only when I played above the
    12th fret on the high E string did I feel it was keeping up with
    me. (BTW- I can't play guitar to save my life. This unit was SLOW.)
    
    Edd

    Well, I'll just restate the facts -- this is a function of the program,
    not the pitch. I could play exactly the same thing with different
    programs, and the ability to track it note for note varied
    considerably.
    
    Now let me be a little more honest. While I have never read the MIDI
    specs, I do know something about synthesizers. Some of the parameters
    that are usually programmable are the speed and waveform with which the
    signal rises after a note is selected (attack), and the speed and
    waveform with which it falls after the note is de-selected (decay). 

    It only stands to reason that if you program the thing to have a slow
    attack and long decay it's not going to appear to be tracking as fast
    as if you had a fast attack and short decay, simply because when notes
    are selected in rapid succession there will not be time for the signal
    to reach its full amplitude on each note. The fact is that it may
    be tracking, but some notes just don't sound fully before the next
    note is selected.
    
    To me this explanation makes sense, and it says that there is a
    difference between the apparent ability of the guitar to track and
    its actually ability to trigger the synth, and that the difference
    is a function of the way the synth is programmed.
    
    I'm still waiting for someone more knowledgable than myself to give
    a better explanation than this. 

    - Ram

    Ram, with all due respect, 2 independent parties have given you
    the same answer and you've arrived at basically the correct answer
    on your own. To put it bluntly, the patch selection will NOT effect
    the actual response time. *Perceived* response time, yes. Actual,
    no.
    
    A synth begins to respond immediately (for our purposes) after it
    recieves a command to play a note. Some patches take over a minute
    to complete the attack portion of the envelope. The fact that you
    can't hear initial portion is, of course, not indicative of whether
    the synth is responding properly.
    
    If you were to play an open D string on the controller, this would
    eventually trigger the D on the synth. An open D string and an A
    string fretted at the 5th fret both trigger the same note. You may
    be correct in stating that the synth set-up has something to do
    with the *apparent* patch-related delay. Some patches require that
    each note start at point 0 in the envelope, regardless of where
    the previous note was in it's envelope. Since both of these strings
    trigger the same note, you may be causing the synth to start over
    each time you play.
    
    The patch selection may cause the illusion of a delay but any actual
    delay between picking a string and the start of the synth's response
    is a function of the pitch to MIDI converter.
    
    

    OK, if I missed the point of the previous replies I apologize. I
    simply want to get across the fact that when you try out one of
    these things you *have* to take into account the way the synth is
    programmed. Many people have told me these things can't track well,
    and I have gotten that impression myself on ones I have played before.
    My experience now is that the inability to track *may* be an illusion
    created by the way the synth is programmed. If anyone is seriously
    interested in guitar synths they should understand this relationship.
    
    I rest my case.
    
    - Ram

    Agreed. You absolutely *must* use a patch with maximum attack rate
    to get any feel for the conversion delay...
    
    As I said earlier, I found the delay on the Roland unit to be so
    long that I didn't recognize the act of picking the string (low
    E) to be related to the sound coming from the speaker.
    
    BTW - There is another scheme that tracks much faster, but it 
    eliminates the ability to use the guitar in the normal fashion.
    (It *must* drive a synth). It does however, considerably reduce
    the delay.
    
    Edd 

>   If you were to play an open D string on the controller, this would
>   eventually trigger the D on the synth. An open D string and an A
>   string fretted at the 5th fret both trigger the same note. 
    
    And you said you couldn't play guitar Edd!  You already know
    more theory than I know.  ;-)
    
>   As I said earlier, I found the delay on the Roland unit to be so
>   long that I didn't recognize the act of picking the string (low
>   E) to be related to the sound coming from the speaker.
    
    You mean the little LED display doesn't say "Working...  Working...
    Working..."?