Conference napalm::guitar

   I think it depends on a lot of different things.  For instance, an
   older "vintage" Strat, Tele, 'Paul, etc. may indeed have different
   tonal characteristics, or playability, or workmanship that you won't
   find in a "current" model.  Acoustic guitars or hollowbody electrics
   may have a mellower tone due to use of better woods, aging, etc.
   Yeah, they may be dirty, but you can't get "that" sound (or whatever)
   from the modern counterpart. 

   It also depends a lot on your motives for buying the guitar.  Some of
   the new "copies" *are* great guitars, but they have no RESALE VALUE.
   If you're going to buy it and keep it forever then it's probably the
   best deal for you.  But, if you're into trading guitars frequently then
   you'll lose your shirt buying brand new "copies". 
   
   But $3K-$7K for a Strat?  You gotta be kidding!  I thought only Gibsons
   and Martins were that overpriced!  :-)

   -- Sam

It's all supply and demand. The supply is fixed, and shrinking (due to old
guitars breaking etc.) If the demand increases the price will go up. Is
there any way to tell if the demand for old SG's is going to go up? I doubt
it.

But send me mail in private if you hear from a reliable source that both
Eddie van Halen and Mark Knopfler have decided the SG is their new axe of
choice.

Don.

    I love it.  This note should invoke a number of replies.
    A number of good points and questions have been raised.
    Is it worth investing in vinatage guitars? Are they worth the money
    they demand?
    You are absolutely correct when you say that many new guitars and
    copies are better then the vintage ones.  Why then are vintage guitars
    in such high demand?  I can only attempt to answer this by tapping
    my past experience playing and trading instruments through the years.
    I would say that from about 1970 to 1980 most new guitars 
    just did not have that unique sound nor classic looks like their
    predecessors.  The pros new it too and thats why they turned to
    the 50's and 60's models.  Newer models such as the Ovation
    Breadwinner, Hagstrom Swedes, etc. had short lived histories because 
    they had nothing unique to set them apart from the rest.  And during
    that same period most copies were just cheap imitations.  This started
    to change about the time Ibanez came around.  They appeared to be
    the first company who could do both - make a decent imitation and
    later put out a few new models themselves which were well made,
    unique and reasonably priced.  Since then, everybody and their aunt
    and uncle have been marketing new guitar models.  In my opinion
    the only thing that saved Music Man guitars was the fact that they
    had the name of Leo Fender behind them - without that they may have
    been lost in the shuffle along w/ so many other new guitars.  Point
    is, the market is flooded w/ different models (at least when you
    compare it 2 decades ago).
    So, during the period between 70 and 80, older Fenders and Gibsons
    went up in value.  The newer Fenders and Gibsons during that period
    were not as desireable as craftsmanship went down and changes to
    pickup design were made.  Well, by the time Gibson and Fender realized
    they could increase their revenue by going back to the old designs
    it was too late.  People were convinced the only good guitars were
    the older ones.  Demand for the older models increased and hence
    so went the price.  I don't hold the theory that the price continues
    to rise because the supply has lowered due to breakage.  Mostly,
    the supply has lowered due to collectors swiping up what they can
    get their hands on.
    Are the vinatage guitars worth what they are demanding?
    In many cases, doubtful - unless of course you are buying for
    investment reasons and even then this might be argued.
    Are newer guitars today as good though their sticker is significantly
    less?
    In many cases, yes.  But as one of the replies stated - its doubtful
    you'll ever get anything near what you paid for when it comes time
    to sell - simply because used, newer guitars are not in demand.
    If you're buying to keep it and play it, then I'd say buying a new
    guitar may be your better value.
    How about the older SG? Is it a good value?
    I hold the theory that old strats, tele's and late 50's Les Pauls
    are out of line in price - no gutiar is worth $5000+ to me but you
    may not feel that way.  Suppose for the moment you do feel the same
    as I do but you are still interested in getting hold of a good old
    guitar which will maintain its value or go up in value and one which
    doesn't cost a fortune - what do you look for?
    I won't even bat an eyelash when I see a early 70's start or tele
    - they are starting to demand a bigger buck because everyone is riding
    this silly bandwagon which is entitled 'buy a USA made tele or strat
    - their all great!' Trust me - Ive played zillions of them - they
    aren't worth the price they sold for back in the 70's (barring 1
    or 2 made on a Wednesday).  On the other hand the 65-68 strats were
    incredible!  As for the SG, here is a guitar which is extremely
    undervalued and which may be due for a big comeback.  The 60's SG's
    can be bought anywhere from $100-$600.  They are well made, sound
    great, and play like a bird.  Problem is, no prominent pro is using
    one right now - but they will ... I'm betting on it.  I can forsee
    someone like Stevie Ray Vaughne starting to use one ... and if that
    takes place - lookout! the price will go up overnight.  And even
    if the price doesn't take off, it certainly won't get any lower
    so your purchase is pretty safe.  Also, I should mention that SG's
    are more abundant, partly because they made tons of them and partly
    because they are not in as big of demand right now - hence, they sit on 
    store walls.  Good luck buying.  P.S. If your looking for an
    investement put your money into comic books instead.  Comic books
    many times can be bought for dirty cheap and sold for 10000%+ what
    you paid for them.
    
    Joel
    

    

    Did you know there is another topic on this subject? Anyways, I
    like the so call 'vintage' guitars. I look for guitar that are not
    made any more and I like old Fenders. To me the guitar has to be
    in very good condition. If the guitar does not look like new to
    me is not worth the money. I am not looking for any particular sound,
    what I like is to play it for a while and move it.
    
    By the way, it is time to move my 1965 Fender Jaguar. It does not
    look like new, but it is in good conditions. If you are interested
    send me mail at PARSEC::melendez
    

    As stated by Joel in 112.3, he's right on the money. If it feels
    great and sounds great, then buy it !! I have a 1970 gibson Les
    Paul recording that I bought from Les's grandson in N.Y. 4 yrs ago
    and had it appraised for $750.00.  When I inquired about trading
    it in for something else, I was informed that it would be worth
    $250.00 on the open market. It was the most expensive Les Paul you
    could buy in 1971, but yet because no one is using them on tour,
    or on MTV, the price would be very low. That stinks, but that's
    the way it is. Tele's are big because good ole Bruce is using them
    along with a few others, but are they worth the money they want
    from them? No Way!!! I never spent more than $350.00 for any guitar
    and I have a 1970 LP custom, a 1971 LP Recording, a 1969 strat and
    a 1969 precision bass, plus a few others. If you want a deal and
    you have your heart set on a certain guitar then look and wait.
    You will find a deal. A deal is only worth it if you can use it
    however. If that Jap copy feel great and sounds great and is 1/4
    the price... then BUY IT !! It has to satisfy you and only you.
    To then answer your question... Vintage guitars are not worth the
    price some people want for them. I really can't see SG's making
    a comeback either. They are nice but tend to have one type of tone.
    Their necks are great, but I haven't seen too many people using
    them either. 
                                          Good luck,
                                                    Fred

    I think you are talking about two different things. There are 'vintage'
    guitars and there are popular guitars. In the case of the Les Paul
    I (keep in mind, it is my opinion) do not think they all are vintage.
    A Les Paul with out the Gibson name? May be, at least they are old.
    
    Again keep in mind, it is my opinion that to be a vintage guitar
    is what you think it is vintage. To me vintage means rareness of
    the instrument.
    
    Then again we could be talking about vintage to define the period
    the guitar was made. Can any one define vintage? I know that a car
    has to be 25 years old before is called antique. Could we say the
    same for guitars? May be 20 years, then I'll have two vintage guitars.
    

    
    	Ive spoken to the guy who owns the guitar trader in red bank
    - i dont know - but i just dont trust that guy - he seems VERY money
    hungry
    
    					ty
    

    re .7: 
    
    Amen to that! Ten thousand dollars for a guitar? Three thou for
    a beat up strat that needed just about everything replaced? Give
    me a break. I was playing some of his 'vintage' Strats. They felt
    like Sh*t. And he was trying to tell me how great they played.
    A very high pressure place.

    re .8
    I agree.  His prices are higher than anyone's.  But you must keep
    in mind that electrics are much more volitile in price than acoustics.
    It has to do with popularity rather than practicality.  There are
    dozens of great new guitars that will out perform most vintage
    intruments.  And you don't have to worry about them as much.  Some
    of the new acoustic companies (Santa Cruz; Taylor) are giving Martin
    fits.  In the end it all depends on what YOUR values are and what
    fits.  Unless you just HAVE TO HAVE the vintage axe, I wouldn't
    pay the money for them - unless you either have more money than
    you know what to do with or you are a collector.
    
    
    

    Anyone out there know about the Gibson ES125 circa 1958. I have one
    in excellent condition. Any info out there on approx. value ect......

    $400 if it's mint...  I beleive the 125 (especially the "T" model)
    was a student guit.
    
    jc

    I saw this old Vega classical guitar and the guy wanted to sale for
    $300.00, the guitar may be about 100+ yrs old in good condition.
    It's prety small and sound very nice. It look more like the old Martin
    guitar. I was wondering do it worthy to buy. Do anyone know
    about these Vega guitar. The owner said they make it in Boston.
    
    Thanks 
    KL

    Vega made a variety of instruments with varying levels of quality.
    
    It sounds like a late 19th century parlor guitar. And it probably is
    very similar to a Martin of similar vintage. 
    
    If it is, I  wouldn't really call it a classical guitar.  Although 
    designed for gut strings, it probably would not be of much interest 
    to a classical guitarist-- too small, neck to narrow at the the nut 
    (though wider than contemporary steel strings), x-bracing, etc. 
    
    Of the guitars of this ilk that are still played, many of them are
    strung with silk and steel strings instead of nylon.  You have to be
    real careful though-- the guitar may not be braced strong enough to
    hand the tension.
    
    Other than Martins, guitars of this era are not generally in great
    demand (and even the Martins command much less than the Martins of the 
    '20s, '30s, and '40s).  $300 may be a fair price.
    
    Is it brazilian rosewood?  
    
    There's a guy in Ann Arbor Michigan who grabs up old parlor guitars,
    replaces and/or rebraces the top and strings them with steel strings.
    The refurbished guitars go for about $1000.  

    I don't think it's a brazillian rosewood. I never thought about the wide
    neck that classical has. This one has the regular neck size but it's a
    nylon string guitar. I think I better off buy it. Thank you for your
    help.
    
    KL 
    
    
                                                                        

  <I think I better off buy it. 

that's the spirit,, when in doubt, buy it anyway!!!

God I just love disposable cashflow don't you ???!!!!

    You're almost always better off buying it-- otherwise you'll just kick
    yourself later...  ;^)
    
    

By any chance his name wouldn't be Lou??

    Yes! his name is Lou, live in Gardner. Have u seen the guitar I just
    talk about? Have u buy anything from him?

Yes I have seen the guitar and came close to buying it myself.  The reason I
did not was because I bought a mandolin from him instead.   Lou is a great
guy and I enjoy talking with him about the old days (you tell him I said so!).
He normally deals with guitars he buys a yard sales, fixes up and sell them 
for under $100 but sometimes he finds a rare piece.

Bruce May