Conference napalm::guitar

    Try the EUWurlitzer/LaSalle/Pamplone gaggle of stores located in
    the vicinity of Massachusetts Ave and Boylston Street:
    
    
                                  |            LaSalle
             ---(Boylston Street)-+--------------------
                                  |
                        Pamplone  |
                                  |
                                  | <--Massachusetts Avenue
               EUWurlitzer        |
             ---------------------+-----------------(Newbury Street)-----

    
    These three stores are fiercly competitive.  They seem to respond
    to images of cash; good hunting!
    
    Sure you can't get your relative to consider a Stratocaster?  ;^)
    
    Regards,
    Johnny Jupiter
    

    re:.1
    
    The Les Paul is to go with a nice old vintage Stratocaster and an
    Ovation electric.
    
    Many thanks for the location of the stores.

    Just my .02 cents worth here. Pampalones, the store listed on Mass
    Ave, is History! No longer there. My suggestion for a Good Quality,
    Low Priced Les Paul is Brian Guitar's, located in New Haven, Conn.
    If you can't get there, they'll ship equipment anywhere. This place
    has *the* best prices around. Their number is (203) 387-1775, Brian
    or Tom are good salesmen. 
    -William j. Buckley

    Try Hampshire Music on 101A in Nashua, NH.  They have the best prices
    I've seen in the area.  They drop approximately 40% off what they
    say is the list price for new Gibsons.
    

RE .3 

If your going to go all the way to New Haven, go to New York City on 48th st.
Manny's, Sam Ash, Gracin's and about 4 other music stores are located in 1
block, and you can't beat New York for cutthroat competition. 

    Re .5: Well, for one thing, I *don't* go to New Haven, I have all
    my stuff shipped up to MA. I've been to 48th St. several times,
    in fact, every time I go to NYC I stop by, it's always the same.
    Shitty attitudes and not-so-great prices. Remember, it still *is*
    NYC! Their prices are beat by Brian Guitars to this date! Give them
    a call, they have a good attitude, treat their customers nicely,
    have a good selection, and *the* BEST prices I've found in the country!
    period!
    
    -wjb                     
    

Re .6

>    Re .5: Well, for one thing, I *don't* go to New Haven, I have all
>    my stuff shipped up to MA. 

This question was about buying a Les Paul. I for one would never buy a 
guitar mail order. There are definitely differences between identical
models and mail order provides no opportunity for comparison. Mail order
is fine for commodity components, like amps, effects, or purely electronic
keyboards, but certainly not for guitars.

I've never had any problems at Manny's or Sam Ash.

Scott

    I called Brian's in New Haven (By the way they asked about you,
    WJB.) and he said the UPS is really cheap, price wise, and that
    they were really safe about things.  Besides the prices at brian's
    are about $200 less for the guitar you're looking for and so if
    something *were* to happen, you could always use the 200 clams you
    saved and use it to repair it! ;-)
    		regards

    I am in the market for anLP Standard.  The list price as of 4/15/91 is
    1299 for ebony or tv yellow, and 1499 for honey burst, heritage cherry
    sunburst, or vintage sunburst.  I am more interested in the 'burst
    models.
    
    1.  How much should I be paying?  What source can you recommend?  
    I am not in New England or Colorado, actually an hour from Kalamazoo
    but a few years too late   ;7)   so mail-order might work out.
    
    2.  What about clones?  I can't find Yamaha Weddingtons on display
    anywhere; I like Yamaha acoustics.  I've seen The Heritage axes; those
    are the ones made in the old Gibson factory in K'zoo.  Are there any
    other clones that are comparable to the genuine article, and how much
    do they go for?
    
    Thanks,
    \Gary

Lots of places will give you 30% off on a LP.  You should be able to get 40%
off if you try.  

Jim (who bought his LP via mail order and was pleased with it)

    Thanks, Jim...
    
    You're right.  I was in a bigger shop yesterday pricing Standards. 
    With a list price of $1499, they sell for around $970, 
    or around 1/3 off.....
    
    THEN I saw a Custom in Tobacco Sunburst for $1070, and asked what the
    deal was, since they list at $1999!?  The guy showed me the tag where
    they had received it in in July 1989, when the list price was only
    $1699, and had never marked it up (it's their policy).  
    
    Question for the noters:  How can I screw up buying a new LP Custom for
    $100 more than a new Standard, just because it's been sitting on the
    shelf for 2 years?  What am I missing here?
    
    Thanks,
    \Gary

    Why would you go new when you can get a very good to excelent used
    specimen for about $400.00 less than what you are talking about? Say a
    mid-seventies Custom for about $500 and some change.
    
    Just curious.
    
    Dave

    Why not used???    Darn good question, Dave (.12)... and one for which
    there is no good answer --- I won't kid you or myself.
    
    Basically, I _was_ looking to choose between a used Custom or a new
    Standard if they were in the same ballpark.  I can't find used Customs
    as cheap as you are saying.  The used LPs seem to start at around $650
    where I am.
    
    I figure for the extra $300, I'll get to put the dings in myself  :7)
    and get the warranty.  (Maybe I don't trust myself to tell lemons from
    cherries in used LPs?)  Then I figure for another $100, I can get that
    Custom I asked about.
    
    Still looking for some (quick) advice,
    \Gary

        A couple of 'facts of life'.  If a guitar "lists" at $1000, the
        dealer has paid ~50% of list.  This can  easily  be verified by
        buying a guitar at list and then taking it to another dealer of
        the  same name, the same day and asking naively "How much  will
        you  give  me  for this in trade against ..." You'll be offered
        around $250 (list * 25%) depending on what sort of $$$ that ...
        represents.
        
        Now,  armed with this  knowledge,  you  walk  into  your  local
        Father's  Piss-Poor Euphonic Emporium and  keep  in  mind  that
        their minimum margin is 6%, which means that they MUST get $500
        plus ($500*6%) = $530 minimum, but the  sales droid has to make
        a living too, so look for 50% *  list  +  15% as a 'reasonable'
        opening offer, and aim for 50% * list + <NO MORE than 35%> on a
        new guitar/amp/whatever.    Anything  less (assuming list to be
        real), and you're  getting  a  bargain!   It's  a very variable
        market,  and  popularity/demand will  dictate  ultimate  price.
        Much will depend on your hunger for that new guitar, and on the
        store's hunger for floor movement.  Bear in mind that 'list' is
        a totally fictitious figure, and can vary  from store to store.
        Shop  around  and  mention  that  'XYZ'  will  sell    you  the
        Mumblefratz Deluxe  for  $<a_verifiable_figure>  and invite the
        store of your  choice to better it - you may be surprised.  But
        do your homework!
        
        Even better odds  can be realised on used equipment, especially
        if you wave _cash_ (ie.    actual money, and not plastic).  You
        have  to know your market, and  also  realise  that  the  local
        stores have to make their margins, as  opposed  to  mail  order
        suppliers,  who  can  often undercut - low overheads,  but  try
        getting a satisfaction issue resolved by mail order...
        
        Your  mileage  may  vary (but I've been playing this  game  for
        better than 25 years, and I'm _good_.) :*)
        
        Andy

    RE last few. Obviously there are a lot of playability issues
    surrounding this whole discussion, but if price were the only factor,
    I might consider a day trip out of state or to a small town to save 3,
    4 or maybe 500 dollars but you're the best judge. I'm in Rochester, Ny
    and the market here is not nearly as inflated as Boston or NYC. 
    
    .14 is correct, with emphasis on CASH. For some reason, a wad bills
    with large denominations gets quick price cuts. I one time roped a
    sales person into giving me his "best cash price" on an acoustic, and
    then talked him into taking plastic for half and cash for half at that
    price. Strange but true, and saved about $250 off of an already
    discounted deal.
    
    Dave Kinney

    I think the issue with offering cash has several advantages from the
    store's perspective.
    
    First off, if you flash cash, they know you're *really* serious about
    buying something today and aren't just playing games with 'em.
    
    The second (and possibly more important) is that they make out better
    on a cash deal.  The business has to pay a percentage surcharge to the
    credit card vendor and this means they lose money.  I believe the
    charge is about 5% for Visa and Mastercharge, slightly less for
    American Express.  Most stores hate credit cards and only allow you to
    use them as a service to YOU.  The prices are set accordingly...
    
    Cash also assures that there will be no hassle for them to collect the
    money.  Even a check doesn't offer this security for the store.  There
    are common problems with people that don't keep enough money in their
    account to cover the checks they write and the store eats it if the
    bank won't (can't) pay on it.  People can also stop payment on checks
    and charges by making a phone call.  None of these issues come into
    play if cash is used for the purchase.
                                          
    Greg

    Re. 15 and .16
    As far as going to a smaller town or city, how much smaller than Grand
    Rapids or Kalamazoo would you like me to get?   :7)   I mean Rochester
    might as well be NY or Boston compared to them!
    
    As far as cash versus plastic, points well taken.  Very true.  
    
    Now that we've had this fascinating discussion about microeconomics and
    bargaining in the free market economy, could someone please tell me if
    the guitar for sale in my .11 is a good deal or not, even at their
    asking price of $1070 for a 2-year_old_but_never_sold LP Custom???
    Thanks,
    \Gary

>    As far as going to a smaller town or city, how much smaller than Grand
>    Rapids or Kalamazoo would you like me to get?   :7)   I mean Rochester
>    might as well be NY or Boston compared to them!
 
    Good point!  I've found that sometimes you actually want to go to a
    BIGGER city to get better deals.  Oftentimes dealers in small citys
    feel they have a corner on the market and will price accordingly.
    
    I got excellent deals when I lived in Phoenix, a very large metro area. 
    Around here, I often find with some things I can do better in Denver
    then here in Colorado Springs.
       
>     could someone please tell me if
>    the guitar for sale in my .11 is a good deal or not, even at their
>    asking price of $1070 for a 2-year_old_but_never_sold LP Custom???
    
    It doesn't sound too bad to me, but it's been awhile since I priced Les
    Pauls.  I've seen places asking $1200 or so for them around here.
    
    Greg
        

        Fascinating discussion?    Sounds  sarcastic,  but I guess that
        efforts to pass  on experience are not always appreciated.  So,
        you can't be bothered  to  do  the mathematics yerself - if you
        want the Paul with an  emotion  that adds up to $1070, and will
        be ultra-content and happy and full  of warm fuzzies every time
        you look at it and play it, then, yes, it's  a  good deal.  Pay
        the man, and be happy.
        
        Me?  ~$1200 list :== ~$600 buy in.  Wave $750 under their noses
        to take it off their hands.  Bear in mind that 2 years ago, the
        buyin price was  probably different - any dings/scratches/ belt
        buckle scrapes?  Adjust  the  price  (and tell them why) or let
        emotion grab you and up your offer accordingly.
        
        For ME, it's a lousy deal at $1070. Your mileage may vary.
        
        Andy

        PS.   If  you  buy it, get them to throw in a couple of sets of
        your strings_of_choice.  After two years the fitted strings are
        dead.

    The Tobacco sunburst paint job was never popular on a Paul. Does anyone
    know why? I can't think of any famous person who played one regularly.
    I agree with .19. $1070 is too much.
    
    Dave

Re: .16

�    The second (and possibly more important) is that they make out better
�    on a cash deal.  The business has to pay a percentage surcharge to the
�    credit card vendor and this means they lose money.  I believe the
�    charge is about 5% for Visa and Mastercharge, slightly less for
�    American Express.  Most stores hate credit cards and only allow you to
�    use them as a service to YOU.  The prices are set accordingly...

	Visa/MC is 5%. Amex is *much* higher - so high, in fact, that many
stores have stopped taking Amex in protest.  So, if you have a choice, use
cash first, check (if they'll take it), Visa/MC and Amex only as a last
resort in an attempt to get the best deal.

	I, for one, appreciate Andy's insight a I'm currently in the market for
a good acoustic (I'm willing to spend $500 - $700) and now have at least
some idea of what's a "reasonable" offer.


						--Doug

    Before I get further labeled as an ungrateful smartass, which I am not
    trying to be, let me say that I appreciate all of the advice, but
    MOSTLY the stuff that deals with the specific case I am asking about.  
    
    Re .18 Greg - thanks for just answering the question
                                                                     
    Re .19 Andy - once again, I was just asking a simple question...
    
    But, by the way, where are you getting the idea that a LP Custom lists
    out at $1200!?!? The two-year old shelf queen listed at $1699, and the
    new ones list at $1999, and I just saw one in another shop that lists
    at $2349!!!  This is the Gibson U.S.A. 4/15/91 price list, not some
    store manager's fiction.
    
    Since I can't go into a time machine to bargain against two-year old
    list prices, 1070 against 1999 is 46% OFF TODAY'S LIST!  Even if the
    list were STILL 1699, which it isn't, that's still 37% off.  How can
    you say that's a bad deal pricewise!?  (What you are saying, with all of
    the sage advice about bargaining, doesn't make sense from the
    standpoint of pure arithmetic!  Unless I am missing something.)
    
    The real question is, what can be wrong with buying a guitar that's sat
    on the shelf for two years?  Action/intonation/other body/playability
    problems?  Why didn't it sell?  Unpopular finish?  I'm sorry if I sound
    argumentative, Andy, but Les Paul Customs just don't list for $1200. 
    They haven't for ten years, I'll wager.  If YOU can get a new one for
    $750 by "waving cash in the man's face", I'll take twelve today.  No
    joke.
    
    So what _IS_ the trap?   If I didn't _KNOW_ that the price was good,
    I wouldn't even be ASKING the noters.  To contend that it's a lousy
    price destroys your credibility.  I'm sorry if you got insulted; I was
    trying to get some real advice about buying guitars.
    \Gary
    

        Gary,
        
        I have no idea what  a  Mumblefratz  deluxe  lists  for without
        doing some homework - I'm giving examples.
        
        There's an age-old  expression  which  says:  "Throw a starving
        man a fish and he'll be hungry tomorrow.  Teach him HOW to fish
        and he'll never starve!" I'm simply trying to show HOW to fish.
        
        What I heard from you was  "Never  mind the lessons, throw me a
        fish!"
        
        OK, here's your fish - write a  check  for  $1070, and buy your
        guitar.  It's  a great deal, and I'm sure I couldn't do better.
        BTW, does the price include a case; if so, which?
        
        Andy
        
        PS. No  hard  feelings  -  been around too long to get insulted.
        Peace.

        
        PS. After one phone call, anonymous, ie.  no personal contacts,
        I now have a quote on a  new  Honeyburst  or  White Custom with
        deluxe hardcase (the custom one with the felt  pads  above  and
        below  the  guitar),  which  is $130.00 above  $1070 (ie $1200)
        Without  wheeling  or (much) dealing, without mentioning a cash
        deal, and  this  was  with  a store, not mail order.  It can be
        bettered. This is absolutely new, unmarked, unplayed condition.
        
        Anything which has been on  the floor (or wall) for a couple of
        years  has more than likely picked  some  wear/scratches/buckle
        marks, and for me is worth _much_  less  than  when it was new,
        even if it has never been sold.
        
        As ever, your mileage may vary. Whatever your choice is; enjoy!
        

Andy,

Sincere thanks for your reply and clarification.  I enjoy Notes too much,
and this file in particular, to want to get into bad vibes over this, 
especially when you were being helpful anyway.  I hate it when this happens,
so i appreciate your patience with this ex-New Yorker!      :7)  

The problem was, i already know how to fish... been on both sides of the 
counter, so to speak... for someone who has never seen/heard your advice on
that, it IS worthwhile, but it was actually not related to what i was asking,
so i was trying to get the subject back on track. 

 [Getting a better price was NEVER the issue, although money is always the
 final determination of what something is worth.  The issue had to do with
 the drawbacks of a guitar that's two years old (what to look for and what
 to look out for).]

 [The only thing that really bugged me about what you were saying is that
 when you moved from the theoretical discussion to actual example, you said 
 that if $1200 is the list, then $1070 is a lousy deal.  Well, anybody knows
 that!  I couldn't tell if you were picking figures out of the air or if you
 were trying to use actual numbers, but you _did_ say that it was a lousy
 deal when, in fact, it is at least a fair deal.]

GENERALLY SPEAKING, with a commodity item like a Les Paul Standard, which is
discounted the same amount over a given geography, how does one determine
who to buy from?  By price alone?  What about after-sale service?  Previous
good experience?  Knowledgeable salespeople?  Reputation of the merchant? 
Do you try to drive the hardest bargain?  Will $75 matter in thirty years
when you hand it down to your kid --- or your kid's kid? 

THE HAPPY ENDING:

After looking all over for an LP or high-quality clone, i went back to the 
dealer who had the Custom ( a Standard that went to Hollywood  :7)  ).  
I first saw it a week ago, but it was 10 minutes before closing time when i
got there, on my way back from a sales call in Detroit.

It turned out to be a Vintage Sunburst, not the previously-reported Tobacco
Sunburst (my confusion with the names).  It had been taken out of the back
room recently to put on the floor as the dealer went to double-high racks
and finally had the space to put it out, so it was not shopworn.  This is a
fairly high volume dealer, in fact the world's largest Martin dealer
(Elderly Music, Lansing, MI). 

It included a hardshell case that I call "Barbie's Love Palace"... OBSCENE 
hot pink fur that lines the case and folds over the axe before you close it.

When they receipted it in, the list price was 1699.  The list is now 1999, 
and will go to 2099 (or 2199) in June.  As a result of the current and 
anticipated price increases, they felt that I was lucky to get a new Custom 
at 1070, and i agreed.  Sold --- and i took your advice on the restringing;
actually, they did a full setup in their shop while i waited. 

One of these days i'll play well enough to really _earn_ that guitar, but in
the meantime, as they say, it's still one BARKING guitar. 

\Gary

>   <<< Note 106.14 by SOLVIT::FRASER "But I don't have an accent; you do!" >>>
>                              -< Toy buying 101 >-

>        a living too, so look for 50% *  list  +  15% as a 'reasonable'
>        opening offer, and aim for 50% * list + <NO MORE than 35%> on a
>        new guitar/amp/whatever.    Anything  less (assuming list to be
>        real), and you're  getting  a  bargain!   It's  a very variable
    
    I've been playing with all sorts of scenarios in a spreadsheet for my
    "wanted" list.  
    
    FWIW - the above formula for the "bargain" point equates to 67.5% of list.
    
    Mike