Conference napalm::guitar

	The only way to go shopping for musical instruments is with:
		******* CASH IN HAND ******

	Go window shopping for prices and such, but if you even remotely suspect
that you MAY see something that you really MUST have...

			bring
		**** LOTS OF CASH ******

	Put yourself in the seller's shoes...money talks, all else walks.
It's real hard for them to let you walk out that door with your wallet intact
after seeing your cash. 
	I've bought lots of stuff, from lots of different places, in different
parts of the country and one thing remains the same... 

	WHEN YOU FLASH THE CASH, THEY KNOW YOU'RE THERE TO DEAL.

(Long winded success story follows)


	When I bought my Les Paul from The Guitar Center in San Jose, (kind of a
GUITARS-R-US!) I told them what I wanted, they told me what THEY WANTED to SELL
me, I FLASHED MY CASH, and said I'm here to try out Les Paul's until I find the
one I want...I wouldn't let them hurry me, or talk me into something I didn't
want! 
	I tried several in the store, for quite some time. Once I had the
one I really liked, I even had them put new strings and adjust action and
intonation without hassle one! It needs modifications? Action too high? Tell
'em you'll wait for them to fix it up and try it again!!! FLASH THE CASH and
see how fast they bend over backwards!! More playing and then I'm satisfied!
	I told him I wanted to talk money. He says list price is much_too_many
bucks. I tell him I'm not interested in LIST because Joe's music store can sell
me the same thing for LESS THAN LIST. I say I brought cash because I want the
very best price I can get, 'cause I'm buying TODAY, whether it's HERE or at
SOMEPLACE ELSE! I am becoming a cordial pain in the butt! 
They've invested a lot of time and energy towards me because I HAVE CASH THAT
THEY WANT! They'll deal or they'll lose the sale.
	End result was that I got MY Les Paul for very little above cost.
Probably my best dealing ever, but it also took about four hours! The next week
I asked to see my salesman for some other stuff and was told he got fired for
selling something for insanely cheap...a Les Paul or something... 

					Tom Testagrossa

    
<    Now, don't quote me on this, this is just what people have told 
<    me, but it just sort of burns me.  Any thoughts, experiences?

	Just one glaring example I've had to date.
    
    	I went in to one of the local places. (the kind of place you
    go to for years, buy alot of stuff from, took lessons at in ones
    younger days..) I bought a rockman.  (Read a new rockman.)  Took it
    home used it.  Great.  So I go to throw the box out, saving the foam
    insert.  When I pulled the foam out, I not only found a sales slip
    to some Jim Duhaime guy, but also found a warranty repair claim
    in there with it from Tom Sholz !
    
    	So it wasn't a new rockman, infact, not only was it used, it
    had also been sent back to the company for repairs.  But it sold
    for new, and was priced as new.
    
    	I called, yelled, complained, and the guy their said, "Oh I
    didn't know,  Well you want another one..."
    
    	They did get me a new one, but I think it's the principle of
    the matter that ticked me off.  I think they should have sold it
    as a used piece.

    
    	Some more advice:
    
    	Whenever I buy any musical anything and the salesman starts
    telling me list I laugh.. List price is ca,ca, it means ca,ca nobody
    in the world has ever paid list price!!! Just tell me how much you
    want for it... If  guitar list for $1400.00 cut in half thats what
    they pay for it.. then bargain from there. Effects are a joke too.
    something that cost $200.00 cost them around $70.00.
    
    	They usually make big bucks and the way they make it look like
    such a good deal is by telling you what it list for...who cares?
    
    	Bottom line what do I pay for it.. They all bargain...
    
    	Try bringing a guitar into a music shop and ask them what they'll
    give you for it, I dont care if it's a day old Les Paul,they'll
    tell you that they can buy a new one for the price you want for
    your used one. And they can!!!!
    
    				Brian.(glad to know an owner of a store)

    re:3
    
    	Ditto !  The best way to buy guitars is NOT to walk in a store
    looking like you just fell of the watermellon wagon.
    
    	Some places are more likely to sway on prices than others.
    
    	And you're right about list price.  I usually buy effects,out
    board gear, and such, mail order at 60% discount.  Guitars, well
    I've bought only two in the last 7 years.  I paid big bucks for
    em, but I will not be in the market for new guitars.  If I want
    another axe, Strap on the helmet, put on the goggles, Want Ads here
    I come !

    
      Well !  back to the integrity question...
    
                 I bought a Music Man 130w head 4x12 cab at Daddy's
    in Salem N.H. used in 1978.  I used the amp live for about 6 months
    and kept thinking it didn't sound just clear enough.  I tried the
    head with a friends Marshall 4x12 cab and it sounded nice and clear.
    So time to pop the grill and look inside the cab, wala!  nice Radio
    Shack speakers!!!.  It was too late to get it fixed so I at least
    told them how disgusted I was with them!   I bought a Marshall 50w
    head and 4x12 cab later anyways (from another store!).
    
                  The other guitarist in my band (1978 still) bought
    a 2x15 Fender Cab from Daddys and on the sales slip it said JBL's
    were in it.  Funny this cab had the same symptoms as mine as soon
    as he bought it (muddy).  Pop it open and what do you know Radio
    Shack speakers, well this was documented on the sales slip so right
    down to the store to get them replaced!!!
    
                                           Larry C.
    

    	Sounds like a music store to be avoided.....boycott Daddies!
    

    You're absolutely right!  My boyfriend and I have done some comparison
    shopping between Daddy's and Wurlitzer's.  He ordered a Rocktron
    XDC unit from the old Wurlitzer's in Newington NH (now moved to
    Portsmouth) and without any real bargaining to speak of, he ended
    up paying around $230..  Later that day, we cruised up to Daddy's
    in Manchester NH to price the same unit.  After 1/2 hour of bargaining,
    they proceeded to tell us that they absolutely COULD NOT part with
    that piece and still remain in business for a penny under $300.
     Talk about WEASELS!!  I'm sure Wurlitzer's takes their own hefty
    cut from their merchandise too, they seem to be making plenty of
    money (judging by the location of their nice new store in Portsmouth),
    but a difference of $75 on a $230 unit??  I bet we could have talked
    Wurlitzer's down even lower had we not been so pleased with the
    fitst price he gave us.  Anyone who's buying their equipment at
    Daddy's is being robbed.

    Ref .7, I have gone to Daddy's, and I did not even have to talk
    to any one to know they were way out of line.
    

    Well, let's just say that I find it somewhat on the order of astounding
    to find a note discrediting Daddy's and favoring EU Wurlitzer.
    
    Whether it's deserved or not, EU's has had a long historical reputation
    of being a slimey place, and I've even heard that reputation confirmed
    from both past and CURRENT EU employees.  The current EU employees
    will tell you the place has changed drastically, but even so, the
    same employees have given me obvious misinformation (I'll avoid
    being judgemental and calling them "lies") about products they don't
    sell.
    
    I'm wary no matter whom I buy stuff from.  Recently, I have found
    that by buying lots of stuff and dealing with the same person each
    time, that I have got good services and decent prices from Daddy's.
    
    	db

I will no longer buy anything from Daddy's. For one thing, they 
will never match a price unless you bring in written proof that 
another store is giving a lower price (at least in my 
experience).

For another thing, I have found the majority of the sales people 
(at the Nashua store in particular) to be rude, arrogant, and 
generally unknowledgeable.

I sometimes bring equipment to be serviced there, however, 
because it is convenient and they do a good job for a reasonable 
amount of money.

-Dan

    Nix on Daddy's in Portsmouth.
    
    I will never darken their door again.
    
    Imagine not being allowed to try out a guitar or amp without first
    buying it....the salesman will play it for you. nice guys...and
    beisdes I hate the manager...
    
    dave

    It's been 9 years since the last note ( if I read it right) was
    entered. Has anyones opinion changed twords the stores in question?
    Has any store emerged from the pool of decite to become a trusted
    operation. Ha sanyone dealt with the music workshop in salem N.H.
    With the exception of one instance ( I bought a pair of speaker
    stands and they only had one to give me at the time, I had to wait
    for the other) I've felt pretty comfortable dealing with them. Of
    course, I do such little buisness in music stores, I maybe a poor
    judge.
                                                       Jim

    I've said this many times before but...
    
    I have had nothing but the very best experience with Daddy's Junky
    Music in Nashua.  So much so, that I find these other accounts
    "astounding" although it's hard for me to ignore them.
    
    I think what I derive from this is drive home the point I made 9 years
    ago:
    
    	I think ALL these stores are capable of good experiences and bad
    	experiences.   Nine years ago, you would never ever have a chance
    	of convincing me that EU's was a "nicer" place than Daddy's.
    
    	In fact, I had such consistent and uniform poor experience there,
    	that when a friend of mine left Daddy's to become an EU VP, he
    	called me and asked ME to be on their "customer advisory board"
    	and attend meetings to correct what he clearly thought was a
    	rampant problem at EUs.  (And I accepted btw).
    
    Nowadays, I continue to have good experiences at both Daddy's and EUs
    and pretty much split my business between them.  I have a 15-year
    relationship with Daddy's but I've found nice people at the Nashua
    EU's and IMHO Daddy's has recently tossed off WAY TOO MANY product
    lines (like Ensoniq, Kurzweil, etc) and thus often I can't get what
    I want at Daddy's because Fred Bramante (Daddy's President) decided
    not to carry that line.
    
    And the conclusion that I come to is that the BEST way to go is to
    establish a good relationship with ONE (maybe two) stores.  
    
    I'll say "more power" to anyone disagreeing, but I think that those
    folks who go around stores and always by from the store that gives
    the cheapest price are losing in the long run.   They've established
    themselves in ALL those stores as someone who will always go for the
    offer that's one penny less and have little chance of becoming a 
    "regular" customer.
    
    To underscore that claim, I will tell you that BOTH Daddy's and EU's
    have ALWAYS been willing to match a mail-order or competitive price 
    (with shipping) for me.  They no longer even ask me for proof.  In
    fact, they matched what I thought was a ridiculous mis-print on a very
    expensive sampler!
    
    These guys know (I have "let them know") that I have "chosen" them
    as "my store" and they know that if they give me a reasonable price
    I will buy THERE and I will send my friends there, etc. etc.
    
    So I don't think I'm paying any more than folks who go around quoting
    other places and I also get the added benefit that when I walk into
    either Daddy's or Wurlitzers I am treated like royalty because they
    know "Dave buys and is reasonable".
    
    I have gotten to take things home to try-out before buying, I get phone
    calls when a good deal shows up, I get them to stay open a little later
    on the night of a gig when something has broken and I am desperate
    for a loaner (implying I also get the loaner), I often get a lot of
    freebies, and I never have even the remotist problem getting them to
    let me try out ANY piece of equipment I want.
    
    I can't even remember all the special things they've been willing to 
    do for me.  I could probably fill several screen fulls with it.
    
    I regard this "relationship" I have with these stores as being
    incredibly valuable and I would not even remotely compromise that
    relationship for saving $5 somewhere else on a $1000 piece.
    
    So... bottom line... you can have good experiences at any of these
    places if you cultivate a working relationship with the store and
    establish yourself as a "good" and "regular" customer.
    
    Not everyone can do that.  Not everyone buys stuff on a regular basis
    (although you'd be surprised how they can even remember folks who
    come in once a year and buy something).
    
    But for me, this method is by far the best.  Your mileage may vary.
    
    	db

    I think I'll offer some deep insight into the 'big picture'
    
    I too have had good and bad experiences in large chain stores (to
    remain nameless). I attribute my (and other peoples) experiences to
    some historical events.
    
    Bad experiences - reasons - 
    
    I was young, AND/OR I didn't look like a serious buyer. 
    
    Didn't have much musical equipment knowledge (even though I personally
    don't take advantage of less informed people, it is quite common in many
    forms of commission based sales, not just music stores)
    
    When I did try to deal a little, I came across as a punk kid, they'd
    spite my efforts...and potentially lose a $100 sale (or get they're
    asking price depending on how desperate I was)
    
    Booming mid-80's economy...credit cards abound, greed, sellers market, 
    store could sell for near list price, somebody would want that last
    high-end Charvel, or super-duper new electronic processor, and sign
    on the dotted line.
    
    Low unemployment. Sales personnel were greedy, generally
    unknowledgable, and turnover was high.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Good experience -Reasons -
    
    Music stores experience in a different economy. If these guys want to
    stay in business in todays market, they need price protection
    guarantees, loaner policies, good reputation, good service, and a
    knowledgable, stable staff. Most chains have made dramatic improvements
    overall in the last 4-8 years.
    
    I now have a reputation as a serious buyer. I may not buy something
    everytime I come in, but I do drop 4 digit $$$ on occasion, and the 
    sales guys know I do my homework on prices, and can spot BS. Sometimes
    I don't even haggle, because they hit me with a good initial price, and
    sometimes throw in 'freebies' (couple sets of extra strings, patchcords).
    Yeah, I may not get down to the last $1 of their margin, but if they
    treat me fair, I treat them fair, and give them the OPPORTUNITY to earn
    MY money. If they break the trust, I can get what I want many other
    places. I may have to drive further, or wait for mailorder, but  I get
    what I want. And I won't be back for quite a while...
    
    Larry
    
    
    

    I agree whole-heartedly with what Dave is saying. When I was a 
    frequent-buyer of new equipment, I generally dealt with the same
    store for everything. Most of the sales help knew me and treated
    me very well. You can have a bad experience in any store. I've
    had my share of bad experiences and have learned and I believe
    in some cases, the store personell have learned as well. 
    
    Believe it or not some of the better experiences were with EU
    Wurlitzers. I did a lot of business with the Worcester Store
    a few years back and generally got treated very well from them.
    I had one trying experience with them, but it was due to one
    specific salesman and I believe he learned a tough lesson. I
    was shopping for a new Strat and a new Jazz Bass and wanted to
    use the buying power to get the best deal on both pieces by 
    buying them both from the same store at the same time. The
    salemen I generally dealt with were busy with other customers
    and a "new" guy waited on me. I started asking him to price 
    the 2 instruments with and without cases, with gig bags, etc.
    and he became impatient with me. He finally said that if I 
    wanted him to match a mail-order price, he would but he wasn't
    willing to answer a bunch of stupid questions. I told him that
    I would wait to speak to another salesman. Later than night, as
    I walked out the door with my new American Std. Strat, I gave 
    him the wave to let him know that he had just lost out on a 
    commission. I also relayed my experience to the store manager to
    let him know that this type of treatment was unacceptable. It
    never happened again after that.
    
    Some of the slimer things I've seen over the years are as such:
    
    One store that I shop had a nice new Strat on display. The tags
    said it was a 62-Reissue Strat and it was priced like a 62-reissue
    (~$800). Upon picking it up, I noticed the "Made in Japan" stamp
    on the neck heel. I mentioned to the saleman that this guitar was
    tagged and priced wrong. He started raving about how well the guitar
    plays and how much people loved them. I drove home the point that
    the guitar was tagged wrong (which was deceptive) and that the price
    was at least $300 too high. A few weeks later, I returned to the store
    to find the same guitar with the same tag and the same price. There
    is no excuse for this. This is clearly a deceptive practice and an
    attempt to take advantage of Fender's product proliferation and the
    public's confusion with it.
    
    I have a guitar at home which I bought under the impression that
    it was a Gibson Blues King (This is how the store had it tagged).
    It turns out it is actually an L00 reissue, not a Blues King that
    I bought. I don't care all that much but there is a differance
    in price between the 2 and the store clearly knew the differance.
    
    I've had other experiences where a store will quote me a trade-in
    price on a piece of gear, and then when I come in to make the deal,
    they change the terms. This is unacceptable to me, and I will not
    do business with anyone that changes terms in mid-stream.
    
    If you think music stores are bad, you should attend a few guitar 
    shows. A lot of dealers bring instruments to shows to unload them
    on an unsuspecting market that they hope they never see again. You
    have to be really careful at shows, especially on pieces that are
    sold as vintage. This is especially true of Fender instruments. 
    The way that Fenders are made it is very easy to swap parts and
    misrepresent the year and originality of an instrument. Amps are
    another area for problems. It is very common to find speakers, 
    transformers, or even face-plates swapped to increase the value, 
    or to use in another amp. Buyer beware.
    
    Mark