[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference napalm::guitar

Title:GUITARnotes - Where Every Note has Emotion
Notice:Discussion of the finer stringed instruments
Moderator:KDX200::COOPER
Created:Thu Aug 14 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:3280
Total number of notes:61432

81.0. "Flanging & Chorus" by --UnknownUser-- () Fri Oct 31 1986 12:58

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
81.1Flanging / ChorusXYLAR::RICKFri Aug 15 1986 08:52148
    
    A good description of some effects from USENET.
    
    
    
    Newsgroups: net.music,net.music.synth
Path: decwrl!decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!houxm!whuxl!whuxlm!akgua!akguc!codas!peora!ucf-cs!novavax!houligan!dave@smaug
Subject: digital delay and effects, part 2
Posted: 15 May 86 22:51:54 GMT
Organization: Gould Electronics, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
Xref: decwrl net.music:6297 net.music.synth:1238
Posted: Thu May 15 18:51:54 1986
 
Summary: some more about digital delays and effects
Keywords: digital delay effects flanging chorus
Line eater: yes
 
Sorry it's taken me so long to get around to posting this.  This is the
second part of my indeterminate series of articles about digital delay
and effects.  In part 1, posted a couple of weeks ago, I explained what
the basic effects are that are possible with a digital delay and how to
get them.  In this article, I'll go into more detail about two of
these effects: flanging and chorusing.
 
Flanging:  Flanging is created using the shortest time settings on the
delay, in the .5-10 millisecond range.  The effect is not created by
the delay itself, but by the mixing of the delayed signal with the original.
If you were to turn the original (or "dry") signal all the way down and
only listen to the delayed signal, you'd hear little or no effect.  Without
going into a lot of heavy mathmetics, what happens when the two signals
are mixed is that it creates a pattern of cancelled frequencies that is
usually referred to as a "comb filter" effect (because if you look at on
a spectrum analyzer, it looks like a hair comb, with lots of downward-
facing spikes).  Depending on the delay setting, certain frequencies in
the signal will be heavily filtered out.  The thing that makes flanging
special is that the frequencies form a pattern that will "pick out" a
certain frequency, and cancel out not only that frequency but also all
of its harmonics.  Most musical instruments produce notes that have
a fundemental, lowest frequency (which is what we perceive as the pitch),
and a mix of harmonic frequencies (which we perceive as the "timbre" or
"tone").  Most ordinary filters only filter out frequencies in a certain
range, so with one of these, you might be able to filter out certain
harmonics and make the instrument sound funny, but you could still hear
it.  Comb filters formed by flanging can filter out almost *all* of the
harmonics and totally distort the sound of the note, or even make it
disappear entirely.
 
For a flange effect to be really interesting, the delay time usually has
to be modulated; that is, the delay time is varied slowly over a range
of a few milliseconds.  Most digital delays have a built-in modulation
function to do this.  This is nice, but it does tend to get a little
predictable after a while.  An interesting variation on this scheme is
to use a delay that allows another device, such as a foot pedal, to vary
the delay setting; in this way, the musician can vary the effect to
follow the part being played, or synchronize the effect with something
else (such as the LFO on a synthesizer).  Sometimes, you can get a
neat effect by using no modulation at all; this sounds something like
listening to the world through the inside of a paper-towel roll, and is
in fact called the "cardboard-tube" effect.  (If you have the Red 7 album,
listen carefully to the end of the last song on side one, I believe it's
called "On the Way You Go", and you can hear an example of this effect).
 
Delays usually have a control labeled "regeneration" or something like
that; this control sends some of the output of the delay back to the input,
resulting in a more intense effect.  This works well with flanging, as
it intensifies the depth of the notches in the comb-filter pattern.
If you run a signal that contains a large mix of frequencies through
a deep flange (pink noise from a synth or the hiss between stations on FM
works well), the flange will add a definite tone to the signal.  By
turning the delay setting up and down, you can actually "play" the
flanger!
 
(A quick word about "phasers" and phase shifting: Phasers were what the
world used before inexpensive digital delays were invented.  They produce
an effect similar to flanging by running the signal through a series of
filters.  Any (analog) filter introduces a phase shift, and therefore a
time delay, in its output.  By running a signal through a set of filters
that don't actually filter anything (these are called "all-pass" filters),
a comb-filter pattern can be set up.  But since the time delay isn't
constant, but varies with frequency,  the notches in the comb are not
harmonically related, and so the effect isn't as intense.  However,
phasing does have its uses.)
 
Chorusing: This occurs at slightly longer delay settings, generally
in the 10-16 ms range.  At this setting, the comb filter pattern still
exists, but it has moved down into the lower frequencies, and so it isn't
really heard as a flange.  Most of the chorus effect is from pitch shifting.
Whenever modulation is used to vary the delay time of a sound, the change
in the sampling rate causes the pitch of the delayed sound to go up or
down.  This effect becomes more intense as the delay time range goes up.
In the flanging range, it isn't too significant.  In the chorusing range,
it is there, not enough to cause a noticible (to most people) bending of
pitch, but enough so that it starts adding things to the sound.  Note
that this pitch bending doesn't depend on the delay time, but in the
*change* in the delay time; if there is no modulation, there is no effect.
 
Ever wonder how a 12-string guitar gets that rich sound?  Anyone who
owns one probably knows that if you tune the strings to perfect intervals,
it doesn't sound as good as it does if you tune one string out of each
pair a little sharp or flat.  Chorusing works on the same principle;
by mixing the original sound with the same sound made a little sharp or
flat by delay time modulation, the waveforms are altered in a way that
the human ear perceives as "rich" or "full".  The name "chorusing" comes
from the sound of many of the same instrument playing the same part.
Picture a large choir or orchestra string section.  Each musician is
playing the same part (well, they are for this example), but since no
two human beings can play *exactly* the same thing at the same pitch
at the same time, there is a little distortion occurring in the
composite sound due to all the pitch interactions.  (Why does the
ear perceive this type of distortion as pleasing and some other types
as irritating?  Cultural conditioning, maybe.  Anybody got any theories?)
Ironically, if all the singers or string players were really amazingly
good musicians and could play in perfect pitch, it probably wouldn't
sound as good.
 
In addition to the pitch shift, there is still that comb-filter effect
lurking down in the lower frequencies.  At this delay setting, the effect
of the comb is to cancel or attentuate most of the lower frequencies, which
makes anything run through a chorus sound top-ended.  This is most noticable
on something like bass; I've already mentioned Rush's "YYZ" for an
example.  (Geddy Lee went through a period where he used this a lot:
"Hemispheres", "The Trees", "Strangiato", etc.)  This combines with the
upper harmonics introduced by the mix of the dry signal with the pitch-
shifted signal to produce that characteristic shrill chorusing sound.
 
The intensity of the chorusing effect varies with the speed of the modulation,
because the pitch shift depends on the rate of change of the delay time.
If you set the modulation really fast, it will probably destroy the
pitch altogether.  Plug this into your tuning meter and watch it go crazy.
(Because chorusing does alter your pitch, you should always turn off any
chorus effects you have on before you tune.)  If you turn the modulation
off, the effect largely disappears.  Regeneration or feedback doesn't
work so well with chorus, because the multiple pitch changes introduced by
this tend to muddy up the sound.
 
Next time: digital reverb.  This is such a huge topic that it may take
more than one posting.  Until then...
 
				"But I don't know how to stop..."
				Peter Gabriel
 
 
Dave Cornutt
Gould Computer Systems 
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
 
"The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer,
not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary."
81.2Flanging..JANUS::FRASERNaC Europe Product Assurance Group.Fri Aug 15 1986 10:4511
        Interesting and  informative article in .-1...a little bit of 
        historic information -  the  term 'flanging' derives from the 
        days of multi-tracked master  tapes,  when the original and a 
        duplicate could be played in  sync.,  and  judicious use of a 
        finger on the FLANGE of the  second  tape  deck  take-up reel 
        would slightly delay/accelerate track #2, the resultant sound 
        to be mixed with the original, and re-recorded  -  giving the 
        same effect we now create electronically..
        
        Andy
        
81.3Sounds for the Space AgeHERMES::CLOUDFull Boogie...too hip!Wed Aug 20 1986 19:5514
    re: .0
    
    	I own an analog delay effects pedal...can those effects that
    you mentioned be achieved thru this pedal?  There are three controls
    on it...speed, depth, and feedback.  Am I spinning my wheels in
    trying to achieve many different sounds with this?  Also, I own
    a combination Chorus/Distortion pedal.  It will do either Chorus
    or Distortion, or a combination of both...which gives you a "jet"
    sound.  It's very interesting.  But, the delay pedal is getting
    as you said...predictable.  Can you suggest any new ideas for signal
    manipulation using these two pedals?
    
    					Phil
    
81.4MTBLUE::BOTTOM_DAVIDThu Aug 21 1986 09:302
    you need a modulation control to get phlangin or chorus....
    
81.5GraciasHERMES::CLOUDFull Boogie...too hip!Thu Aug 21 1986 22:033
    
    
    			Thanks Dave...I'll give it a try.
81.6chorus is awesomeCHEERS::LINGLEYMon Aug 25 1986 17:506
    re: .0
    	One thing to mention about feedback and chorus combined is you
    can create ufo type sounds (that is with the use of distortion).
    I've used a chorus pedal for a year now and I say it's a must for
    smooth sound.....
    			Dave
81.7vibratoERLANG::DICKENSJeff DickensSun Aug 24 1986 14:1332
    re .2
    
    They're right, it's the modulation that gives you the flange or
    chorus capability.
    
    You must have that Ross distortion/chorus.  I've heard it; noisy
    but a great effect.
    
    I often use both my Boss CE-2 chorus and a chorus sound on my digital
    delay at the same time, at different modulation rates.  You get
    sort of a "double chorus" sound.
    
    In general:
    
    Another relative of chorus and flange that you can get with your
    DDL is vibrato.  That's where the pitch of the sound is actually
    modulated up and down.  I love to play clean guitar (neck pickup)
    through vibrato and chorus at the same time.  Just start with a
    chorus sound, and increase the modulation depth until you hear the
    pitch shift.  Then adjust the mix to completely cut off the "dry"
    sound.
    
    Of course nothing is absolute.  When in doubt, go ahead and twiddle
    that other knob.  I've found some really nice effects by accident
    that I can't really call flanging, chorus, tremolo or vibrato.
    
    My old fender amp can supposedly do a true pitch-shift vibrato,
    but I may never know for sure since I can't find the pedal to control
    it anywhere.  There's an RCA-type jack on the back for it.
    
    						-Jeff
    
81.8KDX200::COOPERA regular model of restraint...Sat Aug 15 1992 20:2517
    There was a really cool discussion on some sort of a chorus...
    
    I think I saw one today, and wonder if it's the same one...
    
    This unit was a full space Super Chorus - I wanna say it was a CE300.
    
    I *thought* maybe db had once raved about this box.
    
    SO - How much should I pay for one, and is it a stereo chorus ?
    Had outs labeled "A(+B) and B", so I'm assuming it's a stereo or
    a "fake" stereo.
    
    
    I wonder if it'd be cool to have in the outboard FX rack for a
    studio...
    
    jc (Who also hooked up with a MVII for $100 last night!)
81.9Any true-stereo chorus pedals out there?NACAD::HERTZBERGHistory: Love it or Leave it!Fri Jan 29 1993 12:0412
    I bought a Boss CE-5 thinking it would do stereo chorus, but what I
    found out is that the B output always contains just the dry signal,
    while any chorus effect added is present only on the A output.  When
    you plug this into two amps and stand in the middle, there is a fairly
    convincing stereo chorus effect.  When you put on stereo headphones,
    I guess because the left/right isolation is complete, what the box 
    is doing is quite apparant and it just doesn't work as a "stereo" effect.
    
    Do any low-priced pedals do true stereo chorus?
    
    							Marc
                
81.10KDX200::COOPERHello me, it's me again!Fri Jan 29 1993 16:544
    Sounds like a faulty unit  to me!!  I've had a couple different Boss
    Chorus pedals that do the stereo thing for me...
    
    jc
81.11Choose Your ShortcomingsTECRUS::ROSTGive me Beefheart or give me deathMon Feb 01 1993 06:5212
    Re: .9
    
    The Boss "Super Chorus" (CH-1?) is also like that.  My old DOD FX-60
    chorus was stereo in the sense that both feeds were wet, but it used
    *phasing* to get the stereo, so if you recorded the output but played
    the tape back in mono, all the chorusing disappears.  
    
    From what I've seen, these two approaches are the most common.  I have
    yet to see a stomp box with *real* stereo outputs.  Most rack units are
    fine, though...at least my Yamaha SPX-50 gives real stereo chorusing.
    
    							Brian
81.12DOD Super Stereo Chorus does the trick for meNACAD::HERTZBERGHistory: Love it or Leave it!Mon Feb 01 1993 09:0920
    re: .10
    
    Nope, nothing wrong with the CE-5.  After making my observations, I
    read the manual (all else failed...) and the manual documented that the
    B output is always dry.  I don't intend to slag the CE-5 at all.  It is 
    a fine-sounding chorus, and the stereo effect sounds terrific through 
    two amplifiers with a little separation.  You can't tell that one side
    is dry.  It's only when you listen through headphones that it doesn't
    sound right.  For me the CE-5 is no good because I bought it to give me
    a nice wide sound when practicing through headphones.
    
    I returned the CE-5 and bought a DOD FX-68 this weekend (I think that's 
    the designation, the "Super Stereo Chorus").  This serves my needs by 
    giving a nice, centered stereo chorus effect when playing through 
    headphones.  The lit implies that this box is like two chorus units, 
    but doesn't really get into details.  Maybe it uses the phasing trick 
    mentioned in -.1, maybe not.  At any rate, it does what I want so I'm
    happy.
    	
    							Marc
81.13is it broken ? CRONIC::PCUMMINGSPress RETURN For More onSun Nov 14 1993 07:546
    Boy I'd be surprised if this unit wasn't faulty.  The way the latest
    BOSS catalogue advertises the CE5!  Have you asked your local music
    store (where u bought it?) if your CE5 is working as advertised ?
    
    /Paul
    
81.14SurpriseNACAD::HERTZBERGHistory: Love it or Leave it!Mon Nov 15 1993 07:333
    As I stated in .12, I verified in the CE5 documentation that the B
    output is always dry.  The unit sounds cool and very stereo through two
    amps, but not through headphones.