Conference napalm::guitar

    (Warning - default answer alert)
    
    I can't speak for prices in comparison with Mr. C's (never been
    there), but I like the Music Emporium in Cambridge MA. They'll
    adjust the action of the guitar to your liking (when I picked
    up my custom OM-28 recently they'd already taken it down before
    I even showed up).
    
    Relative to whether the D-28 is the right guitar for you: what
    kind of playing do you (are you planning to) do? A dreadnaught
    like the D-28 is the right choice for flatpickers/bluegrass types.
    For serious fingerpicking, a smaller body (000-28 or OM-28) is
    better.
    
    If you like older guitars, the Music Emporium has 'em. Including
    a pre-war 000-45 for a mere $4000 or so.

    re quality of new Martins
    
    I've bought two new Martins over the past five years (12 and 6
    strings) and the quality of each was exceptional. However, both
    were from the custom shop, so I can't say for certain that this
    translates into how good the off-the-shelf models are. My
    understanding is they're fine. During the latter sixties and
    early seventies is when (I heard) they slipped a little. 

	re: Mr. C's

	Mr. C's is good for low end stuff and, if you really know your guitars,
collectables.  I've gotten killer deals from him, but mostly because I've
developed a good relationship with them.   If he knows you real well, he'll
usually give you stuff at his costs. 

	But, I'd go to a place that carries Martin guitars.  One of the stores
on Boylston St in Boston (Boston Music Co?, the one that has the guitars
upstairs) carries a decent selection of Martin and Guild acoustics. 

	I can't comment on old versus old Martins.

	By the way, if you want to want to see some real vintage axes, Mr. C's
is a great place to browse.  Jim, the owner, has been playing and collecting
guitars for over 30 years.  I've seen some truly amazing things on his walls and
the stuff on the walls represents only a small fraction of guitars he's
collected over the years. 

Good luck

    I'll apologize in advance for giving you interesting but incomplete
    information.  Perhaps someone will be able to give you the details
    that I can't.
    
    Several years ago, Martin did away with its lifetime guarantee.
    There was a time after that were it was commonly believed that the
    new Martin guitars being produced were significantly inferior. 
    Martin sales suffered, and they reintroduced the guarantee, and
    it was believed that the quality of the guitars improved to close
    to the old standards.
    
    So, allegedly, you wouldn't what to get a guitar produced in those
    years.  Unfortunately, I can't tell you what those years were. 
    I believe that anything before 1970 and after 1983 is "safe".
    
    I have a fairly old D-35 that I like very much.  When I bought it
    had the action set at the factory standard (probably measured in
    feet).  The people at Music Emporium did a GREAT refretting job
    and lowered the action, all at a reasonable price and in a reasonable
    time frame.  Thus I am very pleased with them.  They seemed very
    insistent that if there was a problem that I bring it back and they'll
    take care of it.   In fact, they asked me to bring it back after
    a month or two anyway just so they can check it out (free of charge
    of course).
    
    I bought a used Yamaha classical from them at the same time.  I
    felt it was a very good deal ($185 for a mint condition FG-180(?)).
    They have a VERY SPECIAL used yamaha classical for $900.   I played it
    to get a feel for what a high end classical guitar was like.  That
    was one SUPER guitar.    Great woody gutsy tone and incredibly
    resonant.   I wish I had some children to sell so I could afford
    it.  :-)
    
    BTW, Guild's are a VERY GOOD compromise to Martin's.  They are also
    more consistent.
    
    	db

    	Well since you're looking for a Martin, I doubt you're concerned
    with price.  May I suggest looking at a new Ovation Legend, thin
    body series, or a Washburn thin body acustic.
    
    	I've played both, 6 and 12 string models on the ovations, and
    6 string models on the Washburn.
    
    	In short, I cried when I had to put the Ovations back on their
    stands.  I fell madly in love with both of them.  I've got a friend
    with a Martin 12 and though it was very nice, (I can't recall the
    model, but it was the higher priced of the martin series.) the
    Ovation, I thought had MUCH (read MUCH MUCH MUCH) better action.  It 
    nearly played itself.  The Washburn is also a fine piece, but for
    me, the ovation was alot more of what I was looking for.  I'm partial
    to ovation already though 'coz I've got a Baladier.
    
	I suggest looking at *others* before just going for martin.
    
    	Not sure if you are, but don't get hung up on a name.
    
    	If it is your dream to own a Martin, that's may be one thing
    but I wouldn't be surpirsed to see you may wake up and find
    your self with a new Ovation Legned.  They can be had for around
    800 dollars.  Brother, their beautiful !    If you live in the
    Fitchburg area, Fitchburg Music has a good stock.  Play one and
    fall in love.

    
    /ray

    Definitely, play a number of different kinds of guitars; there is a
    lot of subjective preference involved! (For example, I would be
    amazed by someone preferring an Ovation acoustic to a Martin; I've
    played a number of Ovation acoustics and hated them all.) 
    
    Don't get too hung up on action, though, provided the neck is good.
    Action is adjustable (by a good dealer). I've had the action on a
    Martin 000-18 taken down so low (for finger picking) that it's hard
    to flatpick without buzzing (you can overdo it, too; this was right
    for me because I didn't flat pick that guitar). You don't decide on
    a car based on which one has the most optimal tire pressure. Buy the
    guitar you like the best, based on some combination of sound,
    weight, appearance, price, and possibly dealer reputation, play it
    for a month or so, and then have the action adjusted to your taste. 

    Part of the controversy on the Martins was the gossip going around
    between 1970 and 1975 that the guitars were no longer hand made.
    I remember (owning a Gibson) during that period of time getting
    into arguments with Martin owners about this very topic.  Martin,
    around 1973 started a very heavy ad campaign to tell the public
    that their guitars were, and always had been, handmade.  They did
    admit that though every step of a Martins construction was done
    by hand, including sanding, finishing, they were using modern tech
    on some of the more tedious jobs that could be done more efficiently
    by machine.
    
    I believe that you can find good and bad examples of Martins from
    every period.  When you find one that's "right", you'll know and
    you'll buy it regardless of the year it was manufactured.  Hope
    this helps a little...good luck in your search.
    
    _stew-

    re:6  (I've played alot of Ovation Acustics and hated them all.)
    
    	This surprises me unless you base your opinion from trying
    	them a few years ago.  Upon which, I would have to agree 
    	with you.  This new Legned series has just been out for a
    	year or so, (as far as I know) and I (who can be hard to 
    	please) liked them.  If you hav'nt tried any of the new
    	ones, you should.  If you have and you still hate them,
    	well, hey, every one is entitled to the preference and
    	opinion.  I won't shun yours 'coz martins certainly
    	are nice instruments.

    	(Plus, I never said I preferred one to the other, just 
    	 mentioned that I thought they were nice pieces.  Truth 
    	 is though, that I probably would preffer a Legend 12 over
    	 a Martin 12,, ....chuckles and snickers....,,)
        
    	As far as not getting to hung up on action, yes, true, but
    	this brings to mind something else about those Ovations.
    	The ones I played had not been *set up* or modified by anyone,
    	The action was excelent, right out of the box.  I suppose it
    	should be for 900 dollars.
    
    /ray
    		
		    	

    Didn't want to start an argument; just pointing out that taste
    varies. 
    
    Martin action is defaulted high because (I'm told) it's easier
    to lower an action to taste than to raise it to taste, and some
    people (bluegrass players in particular, who buy a lot of Martins)
    are partial to high action.
    
    Let's get off this digression and start another.

   		Yeah, I'm not arguing either, and I didn't want
    	to imply anyone was.
    
    		So let's continue this inane drivel, and start up another
    	confrence !  ;-)
    
    /ray
    

    Ah, Martin guitars.  One of my favorite subjects.  I wouldn't
    call myself an expert but I do have some experience.  
    
    The first Martin that I bought was off the shelf in '70.  Brand
    new.  I was a novice with this guitar.  It broke a lot of strings
    and I did not know at the time that that was an easy fix.  Also,
    its action was high and, likewise, I did not know that that was
    easy enough to have fixed.  So, I traded it for a Gibson Hummingbird
    which I HATED.  Later when I had moved to LA I found out a lot more
    about the care and feeding of the Martin.  Also, I found out a 
    little bit about buying them (and any guitar for that matter).
    
    The Martin contraversy is mostly during the period when they started
    looking to Japan to help them build guitars.  This was more towards
    the middle '70s.  Martin has also had several contraversies of this
    nature over the years because they would periodically change their
    construction techniques.  For example, a D-18 from pre WWII is not
    the same instrument that it is now.  The bracing was changed, they
    no longer used ebony on the finger board for that model and I believe
    that they also changed the wood that was used on the back and sides
    to mahogany during that time.  So, a pre-war D-18 will cost much
    more than something made afterwards.  The sound is also much different.
    
    Now, the fun part.  Buying a Martin.  There are probably those that
    might disagree with me but that's the way it goes.  When buying
    a guitar I avoid the guitar shops.  I might go in to look and price
    but I will never buy a guitar from a guitar shop again unless I
    suddenly become rich.  The reason for this is that Guitars do not
    have a high turn over rate say like shoes.  So, dealers have bills
    too.  They usually have to cover their overhead through the prices
    that they get.  When I bought my second D-18 I went to a pawn shop.
    Most pawn shops will not display their good guitars but when you
    ask you will be surprised at what they have in the back room.
    I saved $150 dollars on my Martin this way.  There are a few risks
    but if you go in knowing what you want and what to look for you
    probably won't get burned.
    
    One last thing before I give you all eyestrain.  Regarding the
    Martin action.  Yes, it is set high for the previously stated
    reason about lowering the action being easier, so it is necessary
    to have it adjusted to what you want.  Bluegrass people will
    have the action lowered so that they can use heavier gauged strings.
    After all look what they have to compete with, fiddle, mandolin,
    and banjo.  All of these instruments project more volume naturally
    than an acoustic guitar.  Many BG guitarists that I know will then
    have their action adjusted to accomodate medium gauge on the bottom
    (the low pitched strings) and heavy gauge on the top (the high pitched
    strings).  This gives better balance across the guitar and more
    projection for the flatpick leads.  The prewar Martins with the
    different bracing handled this problem better and I have no idea
    why they changed.

    BTW, my Martin has just celebrated its 25th birthday.
    
    =ken

    I would agree with those folks who caution against automatically
    going with Martin without considering others.  I decided against
    buying a D-28 about 12 years ago and instead picked up a Gurian(sp?)
    for about the same price.  These guitars are(were) made by a guy
    named Michael Gurian in New England somewhere...I'm not sure if
    he's still around, as I heard that his factory burned down some
    years ago (that means I have a "pre-fire" model!)
    The basic shape is more rounded than the Martin dreadnought, and
    for my money, the Gurian has a superior bass sound and an overall
    richer tone, but, as has been said, tastes vary...
    
    My point is simply to try as many different brands and models as
    you can.  I have always found there to be an unhealthy level of
    mythology surrounding Martin, though they certainly are nice guitars!
    
    Chris C.
    

	re. -1 

	I definately agree, and don't ignore Guild while your at it.
	I've been more than happy with my guild D-25.  And at half 
	the price of a Martin D-28....

	-gary

    I'll toss in my two cents along with .4 and .13. A few friends
    whose judgement I trust without question (I don't know enough
    about guitar mechanics myself) are of the opinion that as far
    as quality per dollar goes, Guild is far better than Martin(ie.
    at twice the price, Martin is only slightly better in quality).
    Based on this, I bought a Guild D-35 that I've been thoroughly
    pleased with.
    
    --- jerry

	Definately look around and listen very closely to the differance as
I compared a used D18 to an Alvarez Yairi at the same price and ended up with
the Alvarez at a better price. I even replaced the strings on the Martin and 
had the repairman set up the action the way I liked it. I still have the Alv-
arez,but since then I have played many a Martin which would blow's the Alv-
arez's socks off.
	I have played a couple of Gurians and I would be very careful.they
are from my experiance very temperature/humidity sensitive. This could be
due to modifying the braces under the soundboard as some Martin's have
been modified to reflect the earlier Martins.
	After the fire at the Gurian factory in W Swanzey N.H. Michael sold the 
name and body shapes to Conn Instruments the people who make all sorts of 
trumpet's etc. And those that I have played built by Conn sounded like they 
were built like a trumpet. No offense to those who own and love there Gurian. 
	The fire left Gurian severely financially hurting. I have heard
his relationship at Conn never really worked out and he was trying to make a 
comeback,but that was several years ago.
	Guild is a excellant buy for the money,and needs little maintenance,but
a Martin if the pocketbook permit's is also a solid investment. I like the sound
of a Martin D28/35 over any Guild I've played. But if all I could afford is a 
Guild I would be happy with it. Ovation's never really did anything for me
but it has been several years and maybe they've changed.

						Good Luck! 

    I just got into this notesfile today but maybe it's not too late
    to put in my $.02 worth.  I have a D18 that's about 23 years old.
    As with any good guitar the tone improves with age.  About a year
    ago I played a brand new D28 and it sounded just great.  I'm sure
    that in a few years that guitar will have a sound almost unequaled
    by anything.  (As you can tell I'm really a Martin fan).  The other
    nice thing about a Martin (besides the sound) is that my Martin
    is worth almost 3 times what I paid for it! (At least that's what
    someone offered me for it)
    
    The only thing about a Martin to be careful of is that they have
    thick necks.  So if you have small hands or short fingers they are
    hard to play.  The ovation is probably the easiest guitar to play
    because the neck seems smaller to me.  (I'm not a expert but the
    ones that I've played certainly were easy to play.)
    
    For my money you can't go wrong with a Martin.  This topic seems
    real well covered though, if you like it GO FOR IT!!!!!
    
    					Good Luck
    					    KO

    
    I agree with the rest dont go for the name.. get a guitar that feels
    good and sounds good to you. I've tried different guitars and found
    that even the money doesn' make a difference sometimes. It's all
    a matter of taste.. I played guild for years and still have a 12
    string and never had a problem with any. But these days I have to
    agree with Ray Ovation has come a long way. I am presently playing
    an Ovation Elite and  love it compared to the old Guild. Plus it's
    got a better sound for playing out purposes compared to putting
    pickups on the Guild. But definately buy what you like and not what
    people tell you.......
    	
    	When you've got money for a Martin, you can afford a nice Guild
    Gibson, Washburn what have you.... good luck...
    
    	Brian.

    			< New to this notes file>
    
    I can't tell you guys how happy I am to see this conference.  I
    just started playing again after laying off for almost three years
    because of one thing and another.  Since I've had Gibsons, Martins,
    and now an Ovation I thought this would be a good place to praise
    the best and the one guitar that gave me the most pleasure over
    the past 23 years.  I traded in an ole' F hole Gibson in 1967 for
    a Martin D-18, the best deal I ever made.  There is a certain feel
    to a Martin that has never been matched by any other.  The worst
    deal I ever made was the day I sold my Martin for $200.00 (short
    on cash and getting married after Nam).
    
    I bought an Ovation in 1976 (cash flow excess, and wife's permission)
    and have been very pleased with both the action and tone.  But it's
    still not my Martin.  There are two major differences and they are
    both very noticeable when "Bottle-necking" (using a slide).  On
    the Ovation it is very difficult to down tune to the open G without
    the strings buzzing against the frets and the Ovation just doesn't
    have that deep throaty resonance of the Martin.  I don't think the
    action is any different, or atleast I don't remember it being any
    higher on the Martin so I don't think that's the problem.  I guess
    it could be that my fingers have gotten fatter but I don't remember
    them being any thinner either.
    
    My all time favorite is the Martin, but .17 is right, buy one that
    makes you happy, try em' all when the feel and sound is right you'll
    know which one is your's.

    I have a D-18 I bought in '69; it's been a great instrument.  I
    agree with the folks who say the 70's decade Martins are suspect.
    More recently I think their instruments have returned to high
    standards.  I read in *Guitar Player* recently that Martin has
    introduced a jumbo style guitar (similar to the Gibson J-200); has
    anyone played, seen, heard, or heard of these new guitars?
    
    I must say, if I was going to buy another acoustic I would certainly
    look hard at the J-200.  Guild also maakes a jumbo (as opposed to
    dreadnought) style instrument.  The sound from a J-200 is, to my
    ears, much 'bigger' than my Martin.  On the other hand, nothing
    matches the tone of the Martin for solo playing.
    
    Finally, and most importantly in my mind, you will know when you're
    playing the right guitar for you.  I know that sounds circular,
    but after playing a dozen or so guitars, you'll have enough background
    to be able to detect subtle differences.  One day, a guitar willjust
    plain grab you.  Grab it.
    
    Have fun.
    
    Johnny Jupiter
    

    I bought a D-35 back in March of 1970.  Is there a way to tell when
    it was manufactured and whether I have one of those Martin's in
    question?
    
    I also heard that after the 70's the face of the Martins were not
    solid wood but a laminate?  Any truth to that?
    
    I haven't played in years,  I think this notes file will give me
    some motivation!
    
    Tony
    

    The back of the warranty card I received with my Martin lists the
    beginngin (or is it ending?) serial numbers of each year's production.
    Thus, I assume that the serial number on it can be used to determine
    its age.  (Apparently all of the Martin guitars are numbered
    sequentially as agroup and not by model number.)
    
    If you post the serial number, I'm sure one of us Martin owners
    would remember to look it up on the chart and give you an answer.
    
    - John -
    

    re:21
    
    My D-35 seriel number is 256097.  I haven't been able to locate
    my warranty card.  I'd appreciate it if someone could look up the
    year of manufacture for me.
    
    Thanks,
    Tony
    

    re: 21
    
    256097 is early 70 vintage.  Thanks John!
    

    I'm looking for comments on a recent purchase I made.  I found
    a Martin Shennandoah(D-35?) used w/case for $495.  It seems to have
    no flaws, scratches, warps or other problems.  The thing is like
    brand-new.  It was supposed to list for $1000.  I thought about
    it for a day and almost lost it to someone else(he needed to trade-in
    and the dealer didn't want his twelves-string).  Then I decided
    it was probably the best chance I'd ever have to get one.  What
    do you think?

    I don't have the details, but a Martin "Shenandoah" is not one of
    their main line guitars. I don't recall if it's one they have made
    in Japan or what, but a Shenandoah is not a D35. Anybody else? 
    
    Which says nothing about how good a deal it is, since I've never
    played a Shenandoah. 

    weeelllll...It says on one of the strutts inside "CF Martin & Co
    Nazareth Pa Made in U.S.A"  the serial # is 449326 and there is
    another # D-3532.  So whaddaya think??
    
    /D

    This is probably late (been on me honeymoon!). The shanondoah parts
    are made in Japan to Martin specs and shipped here to be assembled in 
    the Nazareth shop by Martin craftsman. Good deal, sounds like it
    but it's all in the playing. 

    Thanks for they replies!  Having had it for about two weeks now
    I'm very pleased with it.  My only complaint would be that with
    the medium gauge strings I like to use, the action is a bit hard
    but it sounds as if that is SOP.  The tone is beautiful and bound
    to get better since the color of the top and overall condition
    seems to indicate that its only a year or two old. 
    
    re .-1: Congrats!

These anecdotes were related to me by a (Martin-authorized) guitar
repairman in the DC area, circa early 1970's:


1.  Someone brought in a relatively new Martin dreadnought with a warped
neck (IE, the neck was acquiring circumference).  When they got the thing
apart, they found it had been shipped from the factory sans steel tension
rod ...

2.  Some local string-jockey had a 12-string Martin that he enjoyed taking
to the Iguana coffee-house in DC (Wonder if it's still there?).  Though
warned against it, he insisted on tinkering with his axe by shaving down
the thickness of the top.  Anyway, the guitar repairman was at the Iguana
one night when "Fred" was playing his shaved axe.  In a remarkable display
of pyrotechnics, the top disintegrated, the strings shrieked, the bridge
was catapulted into the air and Fred was left with a confused look on his
face and near-kindling in his hands ...



This was related to me by a friend who had a Martin 12-string (the smaller-
bodied model).  He prefaced the story with "Want to hear something outlandish?":
He liked to tune in octaves, but apparently overdid it one day.
As he cranked the peg, one of the solid strings broke, snaked back over
the body of the guitar, penetrated the fleshy part of one finger and stuck
in the pick guard.  He was more amazed than hurt, though I think (after
clipping the wire) he had to get help to get the fragment pulled through
his finger.

(And if that ain't the truth, it oughtta be ...)

    

    I was just re-reading some of these replies and noticed a question
    that apparently went unanswered (.20?) regarding Martins with laminated
    tops.  The only lamination on a *real* Martin on is the head.  The
    budget models, like Sigma and Shenandoah, include partially and
    completely laminated models.  
    
    BTW, there's a interesting book on Martin guitars by Mike Longworth.
    I think it's called Martin Guitars or maybe the History of ...
    
    
    
    
    
    Bob

    A fully laminated guitar?    Are you sure it's not solid top, laminate
    elsewhere?  I have 2 (non-Martin) of the latter, and they both have
    a very nice tone.  I'm not sure that would be the case if the top
    were laminated.
    
    

    When I bought my Shenandoah, I didn't realize that the parts were
    built in Japan, and I snatched it up as an oportunity to get "*real*"
    Martin for ~500 bucks.  Since then I have priced them and found
    that the cheapest I could get a new Shenandoah was $750 + 8% sales
    tax.  I guess I only saved $300 but, I'll tell you that the "*real*"
    Martins were selling at around $850-950+tx, so I'm not sure just how
    much of a budget model the Shenandoah is.  In any case, I very much 
    enjoy my *budget* Martin (if you can call at guitar which has had
    some parts made in Japan a *Martin* at all, I mean after all Japan
    _is_ the country which sends over all those junk electronics isn't
    it?  ;^} ).  Time, however will be the true judge of the quality
    of its parts and construction.
    
    Thanks for the pointer to the book on Martins in .-1.
    
    /D

    re: .31
    
    My recollection is that the Sigmas had laminated tops.  Many cheap
    (make that 'student model') guitars do, and some of them sound better
    than you'd think.  If you get a Sigma in your hands, look closely
    at the edge of the sound hole.  Lamination is usually obvious up
    close.
    
    BTW, Ramirez guitars ($3000 & up & up) have laminated sides.
    
    
    Bob

    Re: .33
    
    A number of the lower priced Sigmas have laminated tops.  The more
    expensive D-18, D-28 and D-45 models have solid tops.  I assume
    the Martin-Sigma models do as well.  The D-18 used to be the cheapest
    solid top model; I have one, its OK but I wouldn't confuse it for
    a *real* Martin D-18.
    
    

    
    
    
    	Can anyone tell me about Martin electric guitars? I picked up
    a used "Stinger SSX" for $$cheap ($99) at Daddy's "garage sale"
    this weekend and am wondering about the quality of these guitars.
    
    
    -Tom
    

    Interesting stuff!  I've been playing about 25 years (gawd!) but
    you wouldn't know it to listen to me.   :-) 
    I'd agree with those who say, don't get hung up on a name...but
    Martins sure can be nice.  There is SO much personal preference
    involved.  I've got a Harmony Soverign that cost $69 new in 1964
    (list was $85, but this one was scratched) that I wouldn't trade
    for anything.  At various times I've thought about getting a
    Martin, or some other high-quality guitar, but I've never played
    anything I liked better than my old Harmony Soverign.  The closest
    I've come is a handmade guitar built by the Froggy Bottom (!) Guitar
    Co.  I was really tempted by that one.  If I thought it would
    make me sound like Norman Blake I'd go buy a Martin in a minute,
    but I suspect it's not quite that simple....
    

I met a woman yesterday who thinks she has a 1926 Martin.  She "thinks" it is a
1926 Martin because that is when the owner bought the instrument.  When asked,
she described what could only be a 45-series instrument (pearl inlay around the
body on both sides).  A very good friend sold it to her about 20 years ago
with the statement "I don't know what it is worth, but it is worth at least
$50."  I plan on taking my "History of Martin Guitars" over to her house later
this week to see and play it.  Anybody want to venture a guess on what this
instrument might be worth?  I suspect that it is a 000-45 with a 12-fret neck.

Went out and saw the old Martin last night.  It was a 1926 0-42, a rare and
unusual model.  I had never played an 0.  It sounded surprisingly full for such
a small guitar (we are talking pregnant uke here).  I hope I hold together that
well til I'm 63 years old.  From what I see in the rags, these go for about 
$3000.  Not worth it for my money, but I'm still glad I got the chance to see 
and play it.

    re: .38
    
    I've been surprised so many times at the sound of a small guitar that
    I almost expect it now.  There's a size somewhere between baritone uke
    and normal guitar where the physics can come together to make a really
    rich, even bassy, sound.  But it's not just the size.  Several years
    ago, I played some instruments that were modern copies of Baroque
    guitars.  They looked about like a Martin 00-size classical with the
    body stretched lengthwise and shrunk widthwise.  The tone was rich and
    beautiful, but the little sucker felt wierd to hold - almost like
    trying to play a lap dulcimer as a guitar.  
    
    Bob

    Re a few notes back.
    
    I don't believe that *owning* a Martin or any decent guitar will improve
    your playing but I do believe your playing will improve just by
    virtue of the fact that if you have a guitar like that, you can't
    put it down, you play more and your playing improves.
    
    QED
    
    andy                

    Nothing like a new toy to rekindle your interest!! I just picked up a
    LP custom and can't seem to put it down.
    
    Dave K.

	I got a Brand New Rickenbacker 610 at the end of June and I'm
	still deeply fascinated...

	ccb

    Re .40;
    
    	I know what you mean!  I just got my first Martin yesterday (D-28)
    	and (for the first time in MONTHS) put in a solid three hours
        hummin' and strummin'.   It's not just the new toy syndrome,
    	I really had a good time.  There's something about a guitar
    	that's in tune no matter where you play that's inspiring.
    
    	The better you like your instrument the more you play.  The more
    	you play, the better you sound and so forth.   
    
    	I waited a long time for this one but it was worth it.
    
    	Ted

    RE .43
    
    Congradulations on your new toy,,,, hope you enjoy it as much as enjoy
    playing the HD28 that I bought a few months ago.  I've been playing the 
    hell out of it which they say is good for a new guit.  I played about
    30 martins before falling in love with the tone, the action and the
    volume of my guitar.  
    
    Good luck with it and enjoy.
    
    Bruce

    I bought an HD-28 over here in the UK a couple of months back.
    
    After a thirty year wait for a quality guitar, I wonder why i did
    not sell the wife and kids years ago and get one then :-)
    
    Having never owned anything more than a reasonable guitar, my opinion
    is that my Martin is awesome.
    
    My wife says how long will it last before you want something else
    (having changed around a bit over the years) and I just tell her
    that there is nowhere else to go.
    
    Its like reaching the top of Everest - the only way is down.
    
    
    andy
     

I've had my D-28 for 17 years and I am working on an upgrade to a custom Martin.
I suspect that if you could go thirty years before moving up from a "reasonable
guitar" to the HD-28, that the HD-28 may be all you ever want or need.  

    I too purchased a HD28 recently,,, and I haven't regreted it yet.
    You'll not have to do anything to move up in guitar with a new Martin
    ,,,,, because with age it will get better and better sounding by
    itself!!   
    
    Hope you continue to enjoy yours as much as I do mine.
    
    Bruce May
    

    Well, I've upgraded from an '81 model D-28 to an '82 (or so) model
    HD-28 - and couldn't be happier.  In fact, it worked out great
    as I traded a motorcycle for it last summer.  
    	On Martin's and 30 years between axes:  gosh, if you'ld bought
    a 1957 D-28 brand new (for about $250-$300) you'ld now own a really
    GREAT sounding Martin, probably worth $1500 to $2500 (depending on
    the care you'd taken of it in the interim.  
    	I bought an '81 off the shelf and kept it 8 years, played the
    dickens out of it, and got my original purchase price back when
    I sold it.  
    	What's the resale value of a Washburn, Ovation, Takamine, or
    any of the other brands we hear loudly touted in this conference?
    	The only guitars that I've played that I'd take over a Martin D-28
    are made by Gallagher (the Doc Watson model), or Hoffman - and I 
    wouldn't give up my HD-28 for either of them.  I might pick one as
    the prize in a contest over a Martin.  Winfield gave away a Martin
    Jumbo (Steve Kaufman selected it when he won the third time), and it's
    a HELL of a guitar.  Well, my guess is Steve played all three of the
    trophy guitars and picked the best one.  He's already got a Gallagher,
    and Hoffman wasn't giving away a prize, so who knows.  
    	Martin's - you can beat on 'em, but you cain't beat 'em.
    P.S.
    	If you want to try out a guitar that sounds and feels like a
    pre-war Herringbone, try one of John Ramsey (Folklore Center, Colorado
    Springs).  
    

I'm pretty happy with my '73 D35-S, but I really prefer the fat necks on 
the older models.  


Re: Whoever mentioned Gallagher guitars

I'm glad somebody has found good Gallaghers.  I've played about a half dozen 
of 'em and found only one that was equal to the average Martin.  The rest
looked and sounded like the work of an untrained beginner.  I eventually 
decided that Doc and Merle owned the only decent models.


Bob

    I'm a fingerstyle player and am interested in buying a Martin 0-series
    guitar.  I called the Music Emporium in Cambridge but unfortunately
    they were out of my price range.  (e.g., a new OM they had was in the 
    $2200 range).  My dilemma - which is probably well shared - is that 
    I don't have that kind of money!  I can, however, afford a low-end
    Martin ($600-$700 range).  I'd also welcome a fixer-up... I know
    and excellent lutier.  Can anyone suggest where I might find such
    a Martin guitar.  The reason I'm specifying and 0-series Martin
    is for the widerneck and smaller body, and for the overall quality.
    Thanks.
    
    Don
    

    I was in Jafrey NH (Fiddlers Choice) a few month back and I can
    remember seeing a wide neck martin,,,, can't remember what model 
    nor the price, but they do have about 6 to 7 martins at all times
    there.  Mite be worth a call.  I was looking for D28 so I didn't
    pay too much attention.
    
    Good luck
    
    Bruce May
      
    
    

I didn't remember that the 0- size had a wide neck.  Makes sense, though.
My experience is that they're pretty rare.  George Gruhn, in Nashville, 
would be one of the best sources for Martins of any style.  Of course, you'd 
have to deal through the mail or UPS.  He'd probably send you something on 
approval if you pay shipping and insurance.  Other dealers often do the same.  
If I were seriously shopping for a relatively rare style, I'd contact Gruhn, 
Elderly, Mandolin Brothers, etc. and see if they will ship on approval.  

You *could* wait a long time for an 0- model to come to a shop near you.

Bob

    Martins worth the bucks, at least mine is.
    I got a 12 and thought when I wanted a 6 I could take it off, gives
    a wide neck. Spruce tops Do improve with age. 

    
    
    
    	Sheesh, I just visited, what looked like a D-45, but it had the old
    fashioned pearl inlay on the head stock and all pearl bindings with
    pearl markers and fret board inlays, probably the most beautiful
    looking and sounding Acoustic I've ever seen.  List price: $3250

    Hi.  I'm new to the file.  I am going to re-string mt ol' D18.  I
    bought it in N.J. sometime around 70 or 71.  It's in perfect condition
    and I've kept it in a hard shell case.
    
    Now, I've never adjusted the action in all these years.  I'd like to
    lower it.  I know it's probably in here somewhere, but how do I lower
    the action?
    
    My music style is old folkie like Travis picking, so I mainly use
    finger picks or once and a while, light flat picks.  I put a note into
    note 4 for an update on strings.  I used to use D'Angelico medium gage
    wire wound.
    
    So, to lower the action, should I try that myself, and how?  If you
    folks think that would be the wrong thing to do, I live in Harvard,
    Mass., so if there is a good dealer in central Mass, please let me
    know.
    
    Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Joe
    

    I wouldn't hesitate to work the action on an electric but my Martin is
    very special to me,, I would bring it to a good dealer,, have it
    checked out.   The Music Emporium is a great place, (they are a
    certified Martin dealer) and I hear lots of great things about them. 
    that where I bought my HD28.   These another place called Fiddlers
    Choice in Jafrey NH which does nice work.
    
    Good luck
    
    Bruce May
    

    You can usually lower the action yourself by adjusting the truss rod;
    but I though old Martins didn't have truss rods. Other ways of
    adjusting action (e.g. lowering the bridge) are best left to a pro.
    
    -Dave

Adjusting the truss rod is also best left to a pro.  I realize that some 
people in this conference adjust their own, but my experience has been that 
most people get it wrong unless they have direct supervision from a pro.

    D18 had no Truss, i Thnk.
    There should be nothing wrong with it.
    If you wonder about the neck get a straight edge from
    Stewart-Macdonalds.
     All else u need if not straight for truss is a wrench.
    To flastten frets You need as large a flat surface as possible.
    Then you crown them with a fret file, then polish with abrasives.
    
    If no truss rod , then the fingerboard comes off and the neck is 
    heated with a special big iron, like bending the wood flat.
    
    Martins don't have great action, though, not like a strat.

    Thanks for all the replies.  I'll make some calls to those Martin
    dealers and ask some questions first.
    
    The action on my D18 just seems to be a little high.  Otherwise, the
    neck is fine.  Nothing is warped.
    
    Thanks for the replies.
    
    Joe
    

When I sent my D-28 back to the factory for some repairs after 18 years of use,
I had them adjust the action down to a more normal level.  I don't know how I
played it all of those years the way it was.  If you bought your D-18 new and
it isn't straight, send it back to the factory and they will fix it for free and
adjust the action down at the same time.

Jim

    Jim, do you have their address and/or phone number?  I have to dig
    around for my warranty card & sales slip.  I am the original owner.
    
    First, however, I will try some new strings and pick around for a bit.
    Then I'll give them a call and ask them some D18 oriented questions,
    like if the action can be lowered or not, etc.
    
    Thanks,
    Joe
    

Joe, you don't need your warranty card or sales slip.  Martin is not that kind 
of company.  If you sent in your warranty card, all you need do is give them a 
call at 1-800-345-3103 and ask for Les Wagner in the repair shop.  Les has been
working for 30-40 years at Martin and oversees all of the repair work.  If you 
are the original owner and forgot to mail in the warrantee card, you can still
have your name registered after all these years by sending in a notarized
statement.  Hope this helps.

Jim

    Great!!!!!  Yes, I did send in the original warranty card.  
    
    Thanks,
    Joe
    

>                     <<< Note 74.60 by KIDVAX::ALECLAIRE >>>
>                                 -< How2DoIt >-
>
>    D18 had no Truss, i Thnk.

	They have a truss rod, it's just not adjustable.

>    There should be nothing wrong with it.

	Not if you know what you're doing.  I don't recommend it for the 
	inexperienced.  

>    If you wonder about the neck get a straight edge from
>    Stewart-Macdonalds.
>     All else u need if not straight for truss is a wrench.

	Most luthiers don't set the neck absolutely straight.  It has a slight 
	curvature.  

>    To flastten frets You need as large a flat surface as possible.
>    Then you crown them with a fret file, then polish with abrasives.

	Again, I don't think this is something the average person should try
	unless you're prepared to pay a pro to refret the guitar if you screw 
	up.

>    If no truss rod , then the fingerboard comes off and the neck is 
>    heated with a special big iron, like bending the wood flat.

	Now we're really geting into trouble.  
    
>    Martins don't have great action, though, not like a strat.

	Action is adjustable, but the strings on an acoustic are usually 
	driven harder and vibrate wider.

Bob

P.S.  It can possibly take days for a truss rod adjustment to "settle in",
and I've seen at least one neck that was permanently warped by a bad truss rod 
adjustment.  I think it's a good idea to not experiment on your axe unless you 
thoroughly understand what you're doing.

Bob

    I was not suggesting the person, unexperienced, attempt this repair.
    
    I am aware of fingerboards being rounded at various radius.
    If you ever get chance to examine a Ramirez, you will know what 
    compund radius can get like. These fingerboards are over 1/4" at the
    nut and less than 1/8 at the bottom, under the bass only. Gives the
    nylon almost 1/3" to vibrate loud as possible.
    
    I think any luthiers who purposely make the neck bowed ( excluding
    fingerboard curvatures) are Bozos.
    
    

	As for truss rods in Martin Guitars. They recently may have started
	to use them, however, they didn't up until the 1980's (the last
	time I worked on one) in their acoustic line. They used a square
	steel tube, about 1/2 inch square that had a space routed in the
	guitar's neck for it.

	The tube, which ran directly under the fret board, was glued
	in place, and is non-adjustable without removing the fretboard.

	This approach is quite strong and rarely give people problems
	(Martin has use this technique for strengthening the neck since
	the late 1800's), and also prevents people from damaging anything
	that they shouldn't be messing with in the first place. Also,
	the neck is stronger at the nut than many guitars that were
	built with a routed truss rod adjustment slot.

	Unless you see a truss rod adjustment thru the sound hole, assume
	that the neck has a steel tube in it. Martin certainly does not
	use truss rod covers up by the nut (like a Gibson) on the acoustics.

	Martin never had much luck with Electric Guitars, so I'm not
	sure about any of the construction on those, I'd guess they tried
	varous things, but never gained noticable market share. As for
	the acoustics, they tended to stick with traditions (like the
	original X bracing that Martin invented in 1850) that worked
	and made people want to buy thier guitars.

	If you are going to do this work yourself, practice on a cheaper
	guitar first. Having someone put on new frets is not a big deal,
	but damaging glue joints, the top, the back, the sides the neck
	and the fretboard is a pretty big deal. If you really screw it up,
	you might as well go to a hobby shop, buy the proper mechanisums
	drill some holes & make the guitar into a wall clock, because that
	might be all it's worth when you are done.
	
							Jens

    I just talked to Martin.  I am going to UPS the D18 back to them in a
    hard shell case inside of yet another box.  I asked them what to insure
    it for - he said $1600.  Boy, I bought it in 1971 for $300 something.
    I think I'll insure it for more, just in case, on the grounds that
    older Martins are worth more than new ones, and this D18 doesn't have a
    scratch on it!
    
    He said that the neck should have a slight curve, but if the action is
    too hard to play on the high note end, that it probably needs some
    work.
    
    Next to find the ol' bill of sale.  They started somewhere around 1972
    with the computer records - I just missed.  Otherwise I have to send a
    letter for their files.
    
    Thanks for all the info - I am not going to try this myself.  Back to
    Martin.
    
    Joe
    

Martin has had a series of different truss rod arrangements including using
ebony for the truss rod material.  It wasn't until the 1980's that these rods
were adjustable.  Nowadays, almost all of their guitars have adjustable rods.

As for that D-18, $1600 sounds about two times too high (but then they would
like you to have lots of money if something happens).  I think you are doing 
the right thing in sending it back to Martin.  You won't be able to beat the
the quality of their work or the price (free).

Jim

 >   I think any luthiers who purposely make the neck bowed ( excluding
 >   fingerboard curvatures) are Bozos.
    
    The very finest guitars I've ever seen, I'm talking $4000 handbuilt
    acoustics, classicals or steel strings, are all set with a VERY slight
    bow to the neck.  The general consensus is that's the way the action
    works the best.  The one of these I've played lately, a $2500
    steel string was beautiful.  Amazing sound and response.  Action that
    was more like an electric.  Low and easy, with no buzz.  The neck is
    just slightly bowed on purpose.
    
    That's the way it's done.
    
    Will

    Intentional bow in the neck, called "relief", is necessary to achieve
    low action, because a plucked string describes an arc.
    
    Virtually all steel string guitars are intended by their makers to have
    the necks set up with .005" to .020" of relief. 
    
    Since classical guitars are generally intended to be set up with a
    higher action, the necks on these are usually unbowed.
    
    Danny W.

    My d12-35 Martin seems flat to me. 
    How do you take a piece of wood and get to .005 tolerance?
    That's WAAY small for the material, Particuarly by hand.
    You'll get that much variation on a humid day.
    
    I can see setting a board to play the best regardless of flat or not,
    with the truss rod you could maybe get  what appears to be a bow
    with the strings off.
    

    A wood neck will actually be more stable than a metal one, since its
    temperature coefficient of expansion is quite a bit lower. It is true
    that a wood neck changes with humidity, but this is not an overnight
    change. I generally adjust the truss rods of my guitars twice a
    year--going into summer and winter.
    
    The neck relief can be anywhere between about .005" to .020" on most
    guitars for them to be properly set up. If you think that setting it to
    between .005" to .0075" and having it stay that way for three or four
    months is difficult, you're wrong--I do it all the time. Further, if
    you try to make the neck perfectly straight, you have no leeway at all,
    do you?
    
    Danny W.

    I should be flogged I should be arrested Please take me in Officer
    Arrest Me I have Sinned I !
    
    I looked at my bich yesterday and you're right, there is a little
    space when i press the string down at both ends
    I've never altered this guitar's truss rod.
    Do you change all the truss rods or just some after measuring them?
    .

>	As for truss rods in Martin Guitars. They recently may have started
>	to use them, however, they didn't up until the 1980's (the last
>	time I worked on one) in their acoustic line. They used a square
>	steel tube, about 1/2 inch square that had a space routed in the
>	guitar's neck for it.

>	The tube, which ran directly under the fret board, was glued
>	in place, and is non-adjustable without removing the fretboard.


I don't know what you call it, but that's what I call a non-adjustable truss 
rod. 

Bob

    re: .76
    
    Apology noted ;-).
    
    Usually what happens is I start playing and notice the action is a
    little too high or low on that particular guitar. If I have the
    inclination, I'll pull out a few more and adjust them--usually the ones
    I'm likely to want to play without having to worry about adjusting
    them.
    
    Some guitars need less attention than others. My 355's, for example,
    rarely need adjustment, despite being set for a very low action.
    Archtops seem to be more affected.
    
    I have mentioned in a number of notes that, once you know how to do it,
    adjusting truss rods is no big deal. It usually takes me about five
    minutes, including removing and replacing the cover. A vintage Fender,
    where the truss rod adjustment is nicely hidden behind the pickup,
    takes much longer ;-).
    
    On your Bich, if the little space is in the range I mentioned, leave it
    alone. Many of the Rich's I've seen don't have enough wood removed from
    the truss rod cavity to get a decent tool in there. I have a pair of
    deep sockets (1/4" & 5/16") that I've had ground down to fit into
    guitars like these, but they are really thin-walled. I break at least
    one a year (tool, not truss rod!!).
    
    Danny W.

    Well, just received a note from Martin.  They received my D18 (I had
    the Mail Box in Maynard pack & ship it UPS in it's hard shell case
    inside a garmet box with lots of "peanuts".  No problem.
    
    Martin accepted my notarized letter and ther will file me as the
    original owner, so they will lower the action, adjust the neck, re-glue
    the finger guard and shave the bridge, all for no charge.
    
    They will have it for 3 months, and return it via UPS.
    
    It's nice to do business with a quality USA company -   :^)
    
    They are putting a set of Martin 1200 stings on it, whatever those are.
    Any ideas?
    
    So, my total cost for this PM is:  $36 packing, UPS and insurance out
    and $19 UPS + insurance return.  Not bad for a mid-life kicker! (Me and
    the guitar - :^)
    
    Joe
    

Re -1: Sounds like a duplicate of the *outstanding* service I got when
       I took my D18 back for some maintenance in '82.  It's about the only
       company I've ever dealt with that made me feel that way.

       Without opening a rathole, DEC and other US companies could 
       learn from the folks in Nazareth.

       If you can manage it, go pick up the guitar in person.  I got 
       a tour, got to play some new models (some that never made it
       past the proto stage), got to meet Mike, the 'curator' of the 
       Martin showroom/museum...total fun for a guitar player.

       Regards,
       John Kelly

    re: couple previous (Martin's Service).
    
    ...but *three months* seems to me like a very long time to get anything
    repaired...
    
    Is that a typical lead time?
    
    Rodney M.

typical for Martin, maybe not for your local repair shop.

Jim

I am looking for a special Martin guitar that would likely only be carried by 
one of the larger dealers.  Since they are expensive and only a limited number
were made, I expect that only the large dealers would have order such an item.

I am aware of the following dealers:

Mandolin Bros - New York
Manny's - New York
Sam Ash - New York
Gruhn Guitars - Nashville
Fidler's Choice - Jaffery, NH

What are some of the other major dealers in the U.S. who offer reasonable 
discounts?

Thanks for the help.

Jim

        Uh, Jim, why don't you mention which model you're looking for?
        Also, you might try writing to Martin and asking them if they have
        a list of the dealers to whom they shipped the model you're
        looking for.  If they send you the list, you can write/call the
        various dealers for prices.
        
        Tom

                                           
    RE: .83
    
      Try Mandolin Brothers. They have some pretty exotic items and
    might even stock what you're looking for.
      They're on Staten Island, by the way. 
    Don't you work uptown NY and have posters of rare guitars all over
    your cube?.
    
    
    RichC
    

    Don't forget Music Emporium in Cambridge Mass.   Lots and lots of New
    and vintage Martins.
    
    Good Luck
    
    Bruce May
    

The model I want to get is a D-40BLE.  Don't go looking through your literature
because it has only been announced in the last few weeks.  Looking for stores
that have it in stock won't help either since these guitars aren't scheduled 
for delivery to dealers until September-November.  I may try asking Martin if
they will give me the list of stores that have ordered this guitar.  Only
50 guitars of this model are being made.  I was told at Martin that they sold 
out to the dealers in 2 hours.  If anybody knows of any upscale Martin dealers, 
I would still like names of dealers.  Most dealers will only get one guitar.

For those who might be curious: a D-40BLE is a limited edition guitar put out
as a part of Martin's guitar-of-the-month program.  It has Brazilian rosewood,
Engelman spruce top, D-41 abalone style inlay on the top around the sound hole 
and around the peghead with D-45 style Martin logo also in abalone, old style 
D-45 snowflake inlay on the fingerboard and bridge, gold Shaller tuners 
embossed with the letter "M" and a Mark Leaf case.  List price is $5598.  Many 
dealers I have talked to are not willing to give their standard discounts for 
this guitar (for example, Sam Ash normally gives 40% off, they have offered it 
at 20% off).  I have better offers than this, but want to do the best I can.

Anybody know a dealer that might have ordered a beast such as this?

Jim

    Definitley call Wildwood Music in Coshocton, Ohio. They are one of the 
    largest Martin dealers in the U.S. and give tend to give discounts of 
    40%. I bought my J-40MC through mail order from there. 
    
    Phil

My list so far is:

Sam Ash - N.Y.C.
Manny's - N.Y.C.
Gruhn Guitars - Nashville
Mandolin Bros - Staten Island, NY
Music Emporium - Cambridge, MA
Fiddler's Choice - Jaffery, NH
Fretted Instruments - Burmingham, AL
Vermont Folk Instruments - Burlington, VT
Wildwood Music - Coshoctn, OH

Some of these dealers will give a good deal if they can get a D-40BLE.  Those 
that have one on order are not giving as good a deal.  If you know of any 
others, please let me know.  I'll post the final vendor.

Jim

I was hoping to find a dealer who would sell me this limited edition guitar at
their standard big discount.  Sam Ash for example will give anyone 40% off on 
a standard model Martin guitar.  Most dealers were not giving their standard
discounts saying that they would be able to get a premium over their standard
discount for these instruments.  Wildwood Music agreed to sell me the single
D-40BLE that they were allotted for their 40% off list discount.  These are the 
quotes I got from the various dealers:

   Dealer       Discount  Price
Sam Ash		  20%     $4478
Manny's		  20%     $4478
Gruhn Guitars	  25%     $4200
Mandoln Bros.	  25%     $4198
Music Emporium    30%     $4114 * includes 5% MA sales tax
Fiddler's Choice  35%	  $3650 * under special order arrangement
Fretted Instr'ts  25%	  $4198
Vermont Fold Inst 36%	  $3598 * under special order arrangement
Wildwood Music    40%     $3350

With over $1100 in price difference, it paid to shop around.  All will ship out 
of state with no charges for sales tax.  Some dealers required you to pick up
the charges for shipping and insurance.

Many thanks to Phil Davia for the pointer to Wildwood Music.  Now, anybody want 
to buy an excellent 18 year old D-28 from the original owner?

Jim

Well,

My D-18 arrived back from Martin yesterday.  They did a great job.  They
lowered the action and straightened-out the neck so that the spacing is
even between fret & string up the neck.  

They buffed it up; added a set of medium gage Marquis strings (1200's),
new end pegs & butt peg - it's better than new.  All for no charge, except
for return UPS + insurance + C.O.D. charges - a little over $20.

I picked around on it for a hour & 1/2 last night - got the sore fingers
to prove it.  So, I'm getting back into folk music again.

It sure has been a pleasure doing business with a high quality company.

Joe

    I have a 1973 buff finish D-28.  It could use some work.  I sent it
    back to Martin once before about 15 years ago.  Will they have me on
    file as the original owner?  I am certain I don't have the sales slip.  
    How does the notarized letter work?
    
    Thanks,
    
    LI

    Assuming you are the original owner, they will have a copy of the
    letter they sent you soon after you made the purchase.  That'll
    be enough.
    
    Regards,
    John K.

If you have sent it in before, then they should have you on record as the 
original owner.  Call them up at 800-345-3103 and ask them if they have you
on record as the original owner.  The folks at Martin do not stand on 
formalisms such as making you come up with your original sales slip.

Jim

     I recently purchased a Martin D35 and was shocked to find that the
intonation on the bass string was poor (the rest of the strings were
excellent). I took the guitar to Music Emporium in Cambridge and had it
adjusted to "better than Martin" standard. Basically the saddle was tilted back
by 3/32" and the saddle was carved to provide some compensation -- ie instead
of looking like (a) the saddle looks more like (b)


                 \                             \
                  \                             \
                   \                            \
                    \                            \
                     \                           \
                      \                           \
                     (a)                          (b)

Apparently Tom Stapleton at Music Emporium has done this numerous times, and
his work is excellent (he inserted a 3/32 strip of ebony in and it is almost
impossible to see -- the complete job including general adjustement cost me 
$50).

Now my octaves are perfect and the general intonation is very good --
BUT the bass string still bothers me (but better than before).

If I tune the bass E to pitch then the G (3rd fret) is quite sharp -- thus E 
chords sound great but the open G chord sounds yuch. Tom, told me that Fender
guitars have the same fret scale and thus suffer the same problem (BTW, my
Ovation classical does not have this problem -- is this because of the
compensated saddle or the nylon strings?)

So after all the verbiage here are my questions:

   * Are all other Martin/fender users happy with their guitar intonation?

   * Why do Martin, etc still use un-compensated bridges? I have seen split
     saddles on TAKEMINEs. Do they sound worse?

   * What is the best way to tune the guitar? What I do at the moment is tune
     the bass string slightly flat so that the G string is in tune. The E chord 
     with a flattend bass E does not bother me as much as the open G chord with 
     a sharp bass G.

    BTW, I have the problem with both medium and light guage strings. The neck,
etc are in perfect condition and the frets are where they should be.

John

I'm no expert on acoustics OR Martins But...

I do know they are extremely expensive.  You said you just bought it.
I'd bring the thing back to where it came from and raise holy hell
about it.  These things are supposed to be top-of-the-line !
This is of course ASSuming you bought it new...I'd get a replacement
for my $1K+.

I know my Ovations tail has risen up over the years...Perhaps your
Martin is having the same trouble ?

jc

    I bought it used. The guitar has been checked and is in perfect
    condition. This is purely an issue of intonation and the fact that all
    guitars are a compromise. I just seem to dislike the Martin compromise.
    I'm keen to find out how other Martin users tune their guitars.
    
    jz

    >>>  -< How do Martin owners tune their guitars >-
    
    I own a Martin HD-35 that I bought mainly because it seems to be in
    tune for the entire fingerboard and it sounds great.
    
    The only tuning "trick" I've ever used is to ALWAYS use the kind of
    strings that orginally came on it (Martin Marquis mediums).  I'm sure
    if I put on a slightly off-gauge set, that some tuning weirdness would
    show up.  Maybe you could try a different gauge/brand of string to see
    if it helps.
    
    You could always ask the person you bought it from to call Martin and
    ask if the lifetime warranty would cover this for him/her or could be
    transferred to you.  A guitar like a D-35 should play in tune.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    - John -

    My D12-35 sounds fine with Martin silk and steel strings, it may be my
    ear tho. Close enough. 

    re:-1
    
    I tried Martin Marquis medium and they had the same problem. I use GHS
    light because they hurt my fingers less. I too believe that a D-35
    should be in tune; but there seems to be nothing wrong with the guitar
    -- the neck is straight, the frets are in the right place (hard not to
    be 'cause they are cut by a machine), they are parallel and the octaves
    are in tune, the bridge is not lifting and the nut is not too high.
    
    I live in boxboro mass. I would love to try out someone elses D-35/D-28
    and see if the problem is unique to my guitar. Anybody interested?
    
    john 

    re: .98  XERO::ARNOLD    Strings, maybe?
    
    I just bought a D60-32E (the D60, maple, Shenandoah electric-acoustic
    version, w/built-in preamp/equalizer).  It came with Marquis mediums,
    as you said.  By preference, I changed over to Marquis lights after
    about a week.
    
    Based on your note, this is inadvisable.  Could you elaborate on that?
    
    \Gary

    >>> I just bought a D60-32E (the D60, maple, Shenandoah electric-acoustic
    >>> version, w/built-in preamp/equalizer).  It came with Marquis mediums,
    >>> as you said.  By preference, I changed over to Marquis lights after
    >>> about a week.
    >>>
    >>> Based on your note, this is inadvisable.  Could you elaborate on that?
    
    Well, I certainly didn't mean to scare anyone away from whatever works
    for them.  I just like the sound of the Martin when I bought and felt
    that it wasn't worth the (admittedly minimal) hassle of switching
    strings just to find that the tone, intonation, etc. may not quite be
    up to snuff.  But, if you've changed strings and find no detrimental
    effect on tone, intonation, then keep doing it.
    
    I only mentioned the strings since I know that changing string gauges
    on my electrics has resulted in tweaking the intonation.  So, I thought
    that maybe one way to get a Martin to sound "factory fresh" is to set
    it up exactly the way they shipped it right down to the gauge of
    strings.  As mentioned a few back, trying these strings didn't help. 
    Thus, I'm at a loss for other possible "quick fixes".
    
    Do whatever works for you,
    
    - John -

>If I tune the bass E to pitch then the G (3rd fret) is quite sharp -- thus E 
>chords sound great but the open G chord sounds yuch. Tom, told me that Fender
>guitars have the same fret scale and thus suffer the same problem (BTW, my

I've never heard this specific complaint, but I've noticed something similar.
I often tune my low E down to D and I have to flatten the D just slightly to 
make the G on the fifth fret almost right.  I'll offer two possible 
explanations.

1) Your ear is supersensitive to intonation.  The compromise is there, but 
it's normally very hard to detect over a mere three-fret span.

2) Your guitar has one or more slight imperfections in the direction of 
exagerating the problem.  If the string slot in the nut is chipped just at the 
edge, then the *real* vibrating length of the string is ever-so-slightly
lengthened.  Then, if the open string is tuned properly, fretted notes will be 
ever-so-slightly sharp.  The same effect would be produced by the face of the 
nut being not quite flat and perpendicular to the fretboard.  Or the slot 
might not be filed exactly level.  Add to this a third fret just slightly
forward of where it should be and you would probably hear a problem.

Out of thousands of guitars built, (2) is probably going to happen to 
somebody.  

Bob

re:74:103

>2) Your guitar has one or more slight imperfections in the direction of 
>exagerating the problem.  If the string slot in the nut is chipped just at the 
>edge, then the *real* vibrating length of the string is ever-so-slightly
>lengthened.  Then, if the open string is tuned properly, fretted notes will be 
>ever-so-slightly sharp.  The same effect would be produced by the face of the 
>nut being not quite flat and perpendicular to the fretboard.  Or the slot 
>might not be filed exactly level.  Add to this a third fret just slightly
>forward of where it should be and you would probably hear a problem.

    The "bad" nut reasoning occurred to me a few days back as the best
    explanation to fit the symtoms. Well I checked the nut (and so did 
    Music Emporium) and it looks fine (and the frets were  checked with 
    a fret-ruler and they were perfect -- BTW, the treble strings are  
    perfectly in tune). The nut was actually lowered a little on the bass 
    string in an attempt to lower the action and to help the intonation 
    problem (it did help).

I can't believe my ears are that good. Could somebody check their Martin with
an electronic tuner --> with the E bass string in tune see if the 3rd fret
is sharp. I have one of those chromatic tuners with flashing leds (Sabine
(sp?)) and the sharp led flashes quite frantically on the 3rd fret. I jammed a
piece of metal under the string to find where the "correct" point was and I had
to move it back about 1/8inch! Oh if you don't have a chromatic tuner then I
suspect that the "G-string" setting will work nicely on the 3rd fret.

Sorry to keep on about this problem, but I sure would like it fixed (or to know 
that its a fact of life).

Thanks,

John
    

>>If I tune the bass E to pitch then the G (3rd fret) is quite sharp -- thus E 
>>chords sound great but the open G chord sounds yuch. Tom, told me that Fender
>>guitars have the same fret scale and thus suffer the same problem (BTW, my

    Before panic sets in, let me enter this note and say: I also have a
    Martin HD-28, and it exhibits *exactly* the tonal behavior you have
    described. That is, when I tune the low E string exactly the G (3d fret)
    is slightly off. I have to find some compromise that is ok for what I'm
    playing. As far as I can recall it's been this way ever since I've had
    it (about 6 years - it's a 1978 Martin).
    
    I can't really blame this on Martin myself, because a) I don't use
    Martin strings, I use Dean Markley Medium-Lites, and b) I shaved down
    the bridge and the bridge saddle significantly so I could lower the
    action.
    
    I got this guitar from a bluegrass player, not because I liked the
    action, but because it had an unusually resonant sound. The action was
    set very high, the way bluegrass players like it (and the way Martin
    seems to usually ship them from the factory). I started shaving the
    bottom off the bridge nut, and before I got the action to where I
    wanted it I hit the bridge, so I shaved that down too. (Sacrilege? -
    remember, this is the same guy who waxed his own Gibson humbuckers!)
    
    In any case, the action is now great, but I don't remember whether I
    had this intonation problem before or not, so I can't blame it on
    Martin. But if you figure out how to fix it, let me know.
    
    - Ram

    I have heard from yet another Martin owner with the same problem. With
    regards the previous note, I can't imagine that lowering the action would 
    make things worse -- in fact it should make it better because the offending
    notes are sharp and a lower action will result in less string bend.
    
    Anybody out there with an un-modified Martin who is prepared to
    comment? 
    
    JZ
    

    George Gruhn claims that most of the Martins he has seen suffer from
    intonation problems caused by incorrect bridge saddle location. Many
    repairpersons find this to be a good income producer :-)
    
    Heavy strings and a lower action will alleviate it somewhat. You've
    already had the saddle mod done, so there's not much you can do there,
    unless the mod was done incorrectly.
    
    An easy way to verify if the nut is incorrectly cut is to tune so the F
    is okay at the first fret and compare that to higher frets. If the
    problem goes away, the nut may need to be repaired or replaced.
    
    Tuning a guitar is always a matter of compromise. How far out does an
    electronic tuner say the G is compared to the E? Are we talking 5 cents
    or 25?
    
    Nylon strings are relatively forgiving of this type of intonation
    problem because they can stretch quite a bit without much pitch change,
    and because they are not as "stiff" over the breaking points (saddle
    and fret). Classical guitars usually have straight bridges at exactly
    the scale length.
    
    Danny W.

    I had the saddle adjusted so that the harmonic and 12th fret are in
    tune -- they are now very very close (less than 2c worse case and most
    are much better).  However, it is not possible to adjust the saddle to 
    get the octave and the 3rd fret in tune -- the fret position is the sole 
    determinant of the 3rd fret intonation once the octave is set.
    
    I looked at my nut again at lunchtime and it seemed fine. I will try
    the F tune test and see what happens.
    
    I don't know how many cents out the G is -- my tuner only flashes leds
    but I will guess at around 10c -- If memory serves me well it is around 
    1/8 of a turn on the machine head if that is a help.
    
    BTW, who is George Gruhn?
    

Re: Danny / George Gruhn's comment

Every Martin I've known from the mid-seventies had to have the saddle moved 
for correct intonation.  I heard from a luthier friend that they were glueing 
down the bridge before the fingerboard and frets were on.  Not smart.

Re:  Who is George Gruhn

George runs a shop in Nashville and is one of the leading dealers and 
authorities on vintage fretted instruments.  He used to have a column in 
Frets.

Bob

    re: .108
    
    If your octave is in tune, then there are three possible causes:
    
    1) The fret is either mislocated or improperly crowned
    
    2) The string is defective
    
    3) the nut is improperly cut
    
    Are there any other places that are out? If the 3rd fret is the only
    one, then either the fret or string are the cause.
    
    BTW, "scale length" has nothing to do with this problem.
    
    Danny W.

    re: .110
    
> 1) The fret is either mislocated or improperly crowned
     No they are correctly located -- I had it checked on a fret ruler

> 2) The string is defective
     I changed strings and the problem remains

> 3) the nut is improperly cut
     It looks good. It was checked by a repairer who has been working on
     Martins for 13 years. 
     I did the F test mentioned a few replies back and the intonation was 
     still out implying that the nut is fine

>    Are there any other places that are out? If the 3rd fret is the only
>    one, then either the fret or string are the cause.
     
     Yes they are all out -- I mentioned the 3rd because the open G chord is
     such a common chord and the intonation problem is very obvious on this
     chord. If my guitar is typical (actually my repair person says it is
     better than typical now) then this problem should be PAINFULLY obvious 
     to any Martin owner


I'm starting to believe that ALL Martins suffer from this problem (I have not
seen or heard evidence to the contrary). 

DOES ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE A MARTIN THEY BELIEVE DOES NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM 
SO I CAN LISTEN TO IT?

JZ
  

    I was round at Tom Stapleton's (guitar repairer -- mainly Martins) place 
    last night and was shocked to see 3 Martins having their necks reset --
    it is a frightening sight seeing a 1940's d35 with its neck removed. It
    turns out that this is fairly common work for him and at around $400
    probably pretty lucrative. He does this work on a few new guitars also,
    so it is not an old guitar disease. Beware when you buy a used
    guitar! I was in a state of shock at seeing these priceless guitars
    disembowled that I forgot to ask what caused the problem in the first
    place.
    
    We started talking about PRS and it turns out that his mentor in Maine
    is being commissioned by PRS in the design of a new acoustic. This
    should be interesting, and probably more competition for Martin.
    Anybody heard anymore about the PRS acoustic guitar?
    
    JZ

    I have a 1978 LoPrinzi - LoPrinzi was supposedly an ex Martin Luthier
    who went out on his own.  Obviously, he learned his technique from
    Martin, because its intonation was absolutely awful when I first got
    it.  I sent it back and he moved the saddle, leaving a 1/4" strip of
    unfinished wood where it had originally been.  I was pretty perturbed,
    to say the least, and refused to accept it - considering that my wife
    had just spend something like $900.00 1978 dollars on it, I figured he
    should refinish the face.  When it came back, he had touched up the
    strip, but it was still visible.  I hasseled with the dealer for a
    while, but LoPrinzi went out of business before anything could be done.
    Now, 12 years later, you can hardly see the difference, but I KNOW
    it's there and it will ALWAYS bug me.   Also, the guitar has
    Martin-like high action.  I spoke to a Luthier in Concord MA who seems
    to know his stuff, and he told me that just cutting down the saddle
    will cause the tone to lose bottom end.  Since this guitar is on the
    bright side to begin with, I really didn't want to do this.  The
    solution, of course, is to remove and reset the neck, which I'm not
    about to go for, so I guess I'd just better get used to high action. 
    Personally, from everything seen, heard, and read, I would never
    consider a Martin.  BTW, I understand that LoPrinzi is back in
    business, making a high-end guitar called an Augie - be warned!

Maybe I have bad ears or good luck, but in the 20 years that I have owned and
played Martin guitars I have never had this kind of problem.

Tomorrow I plan on a visit to the Martin factory.  I hope to have lunch with
Mike Longworth who did much of the pearl inlay work on D-45s in the 60's and is 
now company historian and in charge of customer relations.  I also hope to be
able to talk with Les Wagner, 40+ years in the shop and head of the repair and
custom shops.  I will bring up this issue with them, see what they have to say
and report back what they have to say next week.

Jim

Re: .112

I doubt that you saw a 1940's D-35 since they only began making these in the
1960's as a result of the shortage of Brazilian rosewood wide enough for 2 piece
backs.  Resetting necks is not unusual.  I had mind done by Martin last year.

Jim

    re: .111
    
    If you've eliminated the string, frets, nut, bridge and action
    as possible causes, you don't have a problem :-)
    
    Danny W.

I check out my D35-S last night and I can detect the same phenomenon.  I 
estimate the G to be sharp by 5-10 cents.  I've never isolated this 
particular thing before, but that's not surprising since I make several minute 
compromises when I tune and I expect some string combinations to be slightly 
out of tune.  I never met a guitar that played perfectly in tune all over the 
fingerboard.

However, this is a little spooky.  I tuned the high and low E strings together
and then compared these two strings at the first through fifth frets.  Every 
fret sounded okay except the third, which was sharp!  Now I can accept that I 
might have a bad string, but if I see the same thing after changing strings
and if somebody else can replicate it, I'm giving up trying to understand 
guitar physics.

Bob

   I carefully went through the intonation on my D-35 last night and here is
what I observed:


   Treble E-string :  E     F     F#    G     G#     A  all good
        :
        :
   A-string        :  A     Bb    B     C     C#     D  all good (C# slightly b)

   Bass E-string   :  E     F     F#    G     G#     A  rest of notes OK (Eb
                                                        was slightly flat 
                     OK    OK    flat  Very  sharp  slight
                                       sharp        sharp


This proves that I don't understand string physics -- why the A string can be
so good while the adjacent bass E string is all over the place is beyond my
comprehension. And a flat F# compared to a sharp G!!!

How bad is "Very sharp" on the bass G -- it is sort of like bending sideways an 
intune string by about around 1/8inch (light guage strings).

Sigh! I understand that all guitar intonation is a compromise but I wish they
hadn't chosen the bass G (I postulate that 80% of songs use this G note). 
BTW, I tend to play more with a CAPO and avoid the problem area.

JZ

I'm begining to think we're experiencing a resonance effect here.  I don't 
have a luthier book handy, but, If I remember correctly (Ha!), the typical 
guitar box is tuned somewhere around G to A on the sixth string.  The 
interaction of that resonance with the string's vibration could be fairly 
complex and could possibly account for this wierd effect.  

Maybe?

Bob

I spoke with a couple of people on the subject of intonation while at the Martin
factory last week.  Mike Longworth (head of PR and 22 years with the company) 
and Ken Smith (recently retired head of the shop and 44 years with the company).
I consider these two people about as knowledgeable as anyone when it comes to 
Martin guitars.  This is a summation of what they had to say:

The set up of a guitar is one giant compromise in the area of intonation.  Most
guitars have some tones that are right on and some that are off to varing 
degrees.  The amount any tone is off is measured in one hundredths of a semi-
tone.  Variations of up to 3-5 cents is considered normal.  They thought that
few people can hear 3 cents while some can clearly hear 5 cents.  9 cents is 
considered to be beyond the range of acceptability.  (Some time I would like to
hear a demonstration on what is 3, 5, 7 and 10 cents off a true semi-tone.)

So going back to the guitar mentioned earlier, if the intonation is off by
anything around 10 cents then you have a beef that should probably be addressed
by the factory under warranty.

BTW, if anyone is in the eastern Pennsylvania area, I recommend a visit to
the Martin factory and their 1:15 daily tour.

Jim

    With regards the previous replies:

    I tried another Martin D35 on Friday and we both had the same problem. The
G was out by about 5c acoording to the meter we had (but I don't know how
accurate those meters are).

    5c may not sound like much but it is obvious to myself and my wife.

    I believe there is some resonance around the G string 'cause occasionally
my tuner goes crazy at that point (sharp/flat oscillation)

    BUT, I tried D'add... J40 silk and steel strings this weekend (I had GHS
Bright Bronze light on before) and found that the intonation is a lot better.
These strings are a lighter guage than the GHS light. I can live with the
intonation now but miss the dynamics of the higher guage strings. 

    I was banging 'round my martin last week, it has silk and steel strngs.
    I was able to adjust the intonation by finger pressure , as I do on thr
    classic guitar. After a while I got to remembering why I had the thing.
    I don't care if the thing is out by a little bit, still sounds good to
    me, that thick ringing tone. 
     I have an electronic tuner, but i don't use it too much. All my
    guitars are tuned to a different relative A, and the way I tune them
    will differ from anyone else. My sound. 
    

I got my D-40BLE a couple of weeks ago.  This is one nice guitar (see 74.87 for
details).  As I promised, I will bring it in to work this Friday, October 19.
I have reserved the Codd conference room in ZKO2-2 from 5:00 on.  Feel free to
drop by and see a good example of what Martin is putting out these days.  The 
Mark Leaf case itself is worth stopping by to see.

Jim

    I'm not having any of the intonation problems previously described on
    my 6-month-old D-18. Maybe it's just my ears, it sounds OK to me. If
    anything, though, the third fret on the bottom string is a little less
    resonant than any other on any string. Is there any way of lessening
    this, such as using different gauge strings? At the moment I use Martin
    light gauge (start on a .12), which feel a little stiff to me (I was
    always used to a .10 set on my previous guitar) but I'm getting used to
    it. Would using a slightly heavier set and maybe taking the action down
    slightly improve the sound? 
    
    Basically, I alternate between using a flatpick for strumming and a 
    thumbpick and fingers for picking. I don't need the action *particularly* 
    low, as I'm not a speed demon (I use a lot of funny tunings and 
    pull-offs/hammer ons to make it sound more complicated than it really is 
    8^) ), but I could maybe have the action lowered to make it feel a
    little easier, as I only have fairly small hands.
    
    BTW, this guitar was brand new when I bought it, and I haven't had
    anything done to it (apart from the occasional string change), maybe I
    should take it to a dealer for a 'once-over'?
    
    I'd recommend Martin strings on a Martin; even though I use D'Addarios
    on my other guitar, they just don't sound as good on the Martin.
    
    Bob
                                                 

RE: -.1  

It's possible that a different string gauge or even a different brand might 
help, but I wouldn't worry too much about it, for a while anyway.  It takes a 
while to break in a new guitar and it will probably go through some noticeable
changes.  I think a guitar develops a stronger voice if you  play it a lot
during the first couple of years, especially if you flat pick a lot.  I doubt
if this theory has really been tested, but I've heard other people make the 
same claim.

Bob

    Another thing that's been bothering me about this guitar; where do you
    attach the strap....???
    
    Bob

    Re -1
    
    Where do attach the strap???
    
    I had the dealer put a screw in strap nut at the base of the neck just
    before it enters the body.  It isn't placed exactly at the crown of the
    neck curvature put slightly underneath.
    
    Bruce

>    I had the dealer put a screw in strap nut at the base of the neck just
>    before it enters the body.  It isn't placed exactly at the crown of the
>    neck curvature put slightly underneath.
    
I did that to my Martin, but I had to remove it because it wouldn't fit in the 
case.

Bob

I attach the strap to the peg head, under the strings.  I don't like the 
way the instrument balances with the strap at the heel of the neck anyway.

Bob

    How do you attach it like that, Bob? I'd like to do that, too, because
    I don't like the idea of having holes made in the guitar!
    
    Bob

    In the old days, straps used to come with strings or thongs so you
    could tie one end to the peghead.
    
    Real weird..on some old Fender bass necks, I've actually seen a strap lug
    mounted on the back of the peghead!!??!!
    
    						Brian

    It's as simple as that is it Brian? So, all I need is a bit of string!!
    Is the best place to thread it through just behind the nut?
    
    I've also seen those strap lugs on the backs of old Fender basses. I
    would think playing bass with the strap connected behind the head would
    be a bit uncomfortable, I've never seen anyone doing it.....
    
    Bob

    Most leather straps include a length of raw-hide lace for tying the
    strap to the headstock.
    
    The '62 re-issued Jazz Basses all have the strap button on the headstock. 
    My '83 Jazz Bass doesn't have this. I wonder if the basses balance better 
    or worse when hung this way. It seems to me, you would be placing more 
    tension on the neck when doing it this way. 
    
    I drilled a hole in the neck heel of my '73 Guild acoustic and installed 
    a strap button about 12 years ago. I haven't seen any ill affects from
    doing so. 
    
    Mark
    

>    How do you attach it like that, Bob? I'd like to do that, too, because
>    I don't like the idea of having holes made in the guitar!
    
If your strap didn't come with a piece of thong or lace, just get a heavy 
nylon shoe lace and hitch it through the button hole on the strap.  It should 
fit under the strings, just behind the nut.  I double it for  strength.

Theoretically, this puts stress on the neck, but I've never been able to 
detect any effect.  On an electric bass, considering the length of the neck,
it might be significant.

I've played Martins strapped to the heel button and the balance bothered me.
I had to hold the neck up.  

Bob

    I'm looking for a Martin D-35, or possibly a D-28. I currently have a
    D-18 that has been good to me for years.  In shopping, I've gotten
    pretty used to what the dealers feel is a fair price.  To me, the "fair
    price" is defined as the price they quote you when they don't have one
    to sell.  This is usually the price they might appraise a guitar at. 
    However, this price is not always the real "going" price for these
    guitars.  OR, stated another way, a person who demands the "fair" or
    "appraised" price may sit on the guitar a while (I'm speaking
    figuratively here, OK???) before they get it.

    As one example, last time I had the D-18 appraised (a few years ago in
    California), I think they said it was worth $700.  However, I probably
    would have waited a while to get that price.

    Now, if I'm getting too personal, hammer me.  If not, I'd like to 
    get an idea of "going" prices, so... howzabout letting people know:

        What model did you buy?
        What year was it?
        When did you buy it?
        Was it new or used?
        What kind of condition was it in?
        Did it come with a case, and if so, what kind?
        The big question: HOW MUCH?
        Any other factors (did you have extra work done at purchase time, 
            was it special-ordered, did it come with fancy inlay or the
            special gasoline-powered turtleneck sweater, etc) ?
        How do you feel about the price you paid?

    Come to think of it, this might provide a useful yardstick for a lot of
    people looking to buy one.  If you don't want to put it in here for the
    world to see, but want to help out a guy with 3 kids and one income
    (sniff!), please feel free to send me mail. 

    OK, I'll start it off:

        Model:          D-18
        Year:           1972
        Year bought:    1981
        New or used:    Used 
        Condition:      Very good, not spotless
        With case:      Yes, hardshell
        How much:       $525
        Other factors:  None
        How do I feel:  Fine; I'm aware of the "70's stigma", but this is
                        a big chunk of the used Martin market, and there
                        were also some good guitars from that period. Mine 
                        has been a great friend for a long time.

    Charlie

Prices of Martin guitars are pretty stable.  I recently sold a good '72 D-28 
for $900.  You can buy similar used ones for the same or a little less.  I saw 
an HD-28 (like new) at a dealer for $999.  D-35's should go for the same or 
maybe even a little less.  Prices are not so stable for Brazilian rosewood 
guitars and you would expect to pay significantly more, say starting in the
$1200-1500 range for a D-28 and going up from there.

As for new Martins, the best deal for non-insiders is 40% off list.  I 
have seen new D-28s going for $1280 + $15 shipping = $1295 delivered to your
door with no taxes.  You can get this kind of a deal at most of the big dealers.
If you don't want to go to NY or deal with trying guitars through the mail, you 
can pay more at your local music shop.  So if you want to go new, take the 
price list, subtract 40% and you have what you can expect to pay.

BTW, I would strongly recommend the HD-28 over the D-28 to get the scalloped
bracing.  They sound better to my ears.

Jim

    
    We're going to the Martin factory next Monday - from the Martin
    literature, there's a tour daily, Monday-Friday, at 1:15; I'll call
    to verify.  Any specific recommendations about things to see?  I was
    told there's a museum; anything else I don't want to miss that I might
    ordinarily?
    
    Thanks,
    Charlie

If you are really into Martin, you could call ahead and offer to take Mike 
Longworth out to lunch (<$10 for two in Nazareth).  He took me on a tour of
Nazareth that included a driveby of the old factory, the Martin homestead
and several of the other highpoints of the town.  You will also not find 
anyone who knows more about Martin than Mike.  If you have questions about
any Martin instrument, here is your chance to get them answered.

The museum is off the main entrance to the factory - about two rooms.  You can
see whats there in less than an hour.  They also have about 6 new Martins 
hanging on the wall for people to play including a lefty model.

Have a good time.

Jim

    Re; .95 & .105, etc.
    
    I have a hand made Paul Hutton (Ref. note 5.6) which had this same
    problem with the bass "E" string. A "G" chord was never right unless I
    retuned, which put out the "E" chord. I used to tune the bass E to get
    a close compromise, but it finally drove me nuts doing this all the
    time. So, I checked which way the bridge breaking point had to go (in
    relation to the string breaking over it) and took some 220 sand paper
    to it. It took three tries (a *LITTLE* at a time,) but it finally worked
    out. My guitar tunes perfectly now. It has that characteristic "in
    tune" sound you hear while playing along with a good Beatles acoustic
    song. (ie; Long, Long, Long, or Cry Baby Cry, Mother Natures Son etc.)
    dep

    re:-1  
    
    Glad to hear that I am not the only one who is driven nuts by this
    problem. I had my saddle shaped and moved back a litle bit to get the
    intonation as "good as possible" but it still bugs me. What strings do
    you use?
    
    

    
    
    
    	A friend of mine wants to sell a d-35.  What could he get
    quickly???  400, 500???
    
    
    Steve

Good D-28's go for $800-900 (I got $900 for my '72 but it took 4 weeks to sell).
D-35's are somewhat less desirable IMO.  It should go quickly at 400-500.

Jim

    
    
    
    	Oh, a d35 is lower in the line than a d28??

    D35s are higher in the line than a vanilla D28 (not sure how the price
    of a herringbone D28 relates to a D35) but D28s are preferred by
    bluegrass pickers (actually herringbones are the most preferred) so
    resale value of a D35 might be lower than a D28 because of this.
    
    Nice to know that the market for used Martins is as screwy as the
    market for old Fenders and Gibsons.
    
    						Brian

The D-35 is similar to the D-28.  The main difference is that the D-35 has a 
three piece back vs. the two piece back of the D-28.  There are other minor
differences in bracing and trim.  The D-35 costs a little more than the D-28
in the catalog.  As I said, IMHO, the D-28s are somewhat more desireable since
this is the model that has been a mainstay at Martin for over 50 years.  The 
D-35 with its three piece back was introduced in 1965 due to a shortage of 
rosewood wide enough to make two piece backs.  Both models are nice.  I prefer
the sound of the D-28.  Other people have their preferences.  Either should 
sell well.

Jim

    
    
    
    	OK, I got it now..  Sounds like desireability (not a real word)
    
    
    Now Bri, how bout those vinatge taper pots?? 
    I'm thinking they'd be worth 40-50 bucks, because they're so old and
    there were so few of them made...  We could include them with Mark's
    vinatge pick collection.

    Non-vintage D-28's are less valuable on the used market than D-35's.
    Typical D-28 prices are $7-800, 35's are $800-1000.
    
    A vintage Herringbone is something else entirely.
    
    Danny W.

    
    One of the guitar shops here in Munich has a couple of interesting
    Martins in stock.
    
    One is an HD28-BLE, a Brazilian Rosewood Herringbone, one of eight
    made, dated 1990. It sounds tremendous.
    
    The other is a M2C-M28, a double cutaway, dated 1988. The store owner
    reckons its the only one made. 
    
    Does anybody know how often Martin makes these "specials" ?
    
    Pete

Martin has been making special models as part of a "guitar-of-the-month" 
program since 1984.  There are usually of special interest, some new and some
recreations of earlier models.  There are usually four models per year.

The HD-28BLE is part of the 1990 program.  There were to have been 100 of 
these guitars made.  I am assuming that the one you saw was number 8 of 100.
I have the D-40BLE that was also a part of the 1990 program.  These guitars 
may be the last guitars with standard model numbers that are made of Brazilian
rosewood.  Martin is making a few custom Brazilian guitars, but there isn't
enough in the factory to do another lot of standard model number instruments.
Maybe they will get lucky and find another log, but it is starting to look like
the end for new Brazilian guitars.

I have never seen a model number like M2C-M28.  The 2C and the second M both
are out of the usual Martin naming conventions.  Martin does make custom guitars
and I would have expected a double cutaway to have been labeled a custom rather
than be given a new model number.  On the other hand, the folks at Martin have
been know to do some very unusual things.

Here is a list of special edition guitars.  New models should be announced
shortly for the 1991 program.

1984	00-18V
	D-28 Custom
	M-21 Custom
	
1985	D-18V
	OM-28LE
	D-21LE
	HD-28LE

1986	HD-28SE
	D-62LE
	Custom J-45M Delux
	J-21MC

1987	D-45LE
	00-21LE
	HD-18LE
	HD-28BLE

1988	D-42LE
	HD-28M
	HD-28SE

1989	D-41BLE
	there are a couple more here I don't have the notes on

1990	D-40BLE
	HD-28BLE
	DMC-28
	D-18MB

where:
  HD = herringbone trim
  LE = limited edition
  BLE = brazilian limited edition
  MB = maple (?) bindings
  SE = signature edition (signed on underside of the top by all foremen & CFM4)
  V = vintage (i.e. the same specs as the vintage instruments)

Hope this helps.

Jim

    
    re -1 
    
    Thanks, i didn't realise Martin built so many limited edition guitars !
    
    The HD-28BLE has a sticker inside it saying it is "Number 8 of 8", so i
    presume they only got round to making 8 of them in 1990.
    
    Pete

    Jim,
    
    Just to clarify, in "HD", the D is for Dreadnought (the body style) and
    "H" is Herringbone. Right?
    
    Charlie

    
    re -1, yes

    I just got a guitar "on loan" from a friend who travels around the
    world for the next 2 years - I put some new strings on and I am very 
    impressed by the sound of this guitar (much better than my D-35). Now,
    I would like some info about how much this instrument is worth 
    (maybe I have the chance to buy it later...): 
    
    It's a Martin OM-45 (serial number 418742), excellent condition, my
    friend is the first owner.
    
    Any idea what prices are paid for such a guitar?
    
    Felix.

Martin OM guitars were first introduced in the early 1930's.  These guitars are
essentially a OOO shaped guitar with a 14 fret neck with a D sized 25.4" scale.
The OM-45 was reintroduced in 1977 on a special order basis (SOM-45) and became
a regular item on the price list in 1978.  Judging by the serial number of your
guitar, it was made in late 1978.  A recent catalog show a new OOO-45 at $5440.
An OM might cost a little more.  With a widely available 40% discount, this 
would set you back somewhere around $3264.  Mandolin Brothers (not the cheapest
place) has a new OM-45 listed for $3672.  OM-18's from the 1930's cost about the
same as a new OM-45.  A late model used OM should sell for somewhat less than
the new prices.

Jim

    I stopped in at Wildwood Music in Coshocton, Ohio, last friday (I live
    in Michigan, but my wife and I were visting some relatives in
    Southeastern Ohio), and I am now the proud owner of a Martin HD-28. 
    The guitar was puchased by the store prior to Martin's recent price 
    increase, and I got it for $1290 (40% off of the old list price).
    
    This is an absolutely WONDERFUL guitar.  I have played regular D28s and
    they just don't come close to this guitar.  It responds wonderfully to
    both fingerpicking  (my ususal style of playing) and flatpicking.  
    
    I really liked a Taylor Dan Crary model that I had tried at another 
    store, but the HD-28 was even better (IMHO).   As a brand-new
    instrument, this guitar is incredibly resonant... I can only imagine
    how great it is going to sound once it is broken in.
    
    Jim

    My local guitar store here in Winterthur/Switzerland has a new Martin in 
    their window, whick looks very nice (haven't played it, shop was
    closed). It seems to be a special HD-28 model with "snow flake" pearl 
    inlays on the fingerboard. I don't remember the exact model number, 
    but I remember that the wood structure looked so perfect - I think 
    I 've hardly seen such a nice top before. I also remember that it said 
    that it is a limited edition of 200 only. And I remember the price tag: 
    more than 7000 sfr (more than 4500 $)... (In Switzerland, there seems to 
    be a market for expensive toys like this...)
    
    Does anybody know about this Martin model? 
    
    Felix.  

The guitar you saw is probably one of the limited edition series for 1991.  If
I'm not mistaken this guitar should have a 4" soundhole with dual pearl rings,
snowflake fingerboard and ebony tuning buttons with snowflake/star enlay on each 
side of the button.  I've heard that this is a very nice sounding group of 
guitars.

jim

    RE -1.
    
    Jim, that's right - the guitar has ebony tuning buttons with snowflakes!
    When I find some time next weekend I will go and play it - I wonder how 
    it compares to the OM-45 I currently play.
    
    Felix.
    

$4500 is a bit much for this guitar.  You could buy this guitar in the US and 
have it shipped to you for about $2700.  I don't know how much the import duties
are, but you could save yourself some serious money.

Jim

    Thanks for your offer, Jim, but I don't buy this guitar anyway -
    although it is quite nice. About the prices: I know that generally 
    we really pay too much here in Switzerland... but not only for U.S. 
    guitars, it's the same with U.S. mountain bikes etc. 
    I really don't know why the price differences are that big... 
    someone must make a lot of profit!
    
    If I buy another guitar I will definitely arrange a "direct import"
    through some friends over there. The OM-45 I play (I haven't bought it...
    yet) was brought over by the owner, too - he paid far less than what he
    would have paid here. 
    
    Felix.
    
    By the way: I probably will sell my Martin D-35, bought in 1977, I am 
    the first owner. Any idea what are the current prices for such an 
    instrument?

I sold my '72 D-28 last year for $900.  I considered that top dollar.  The 
guitar  had a new Martin case, refretted by the Martin factory and in excellent 
condition.  Like you, I was the original owner.  I don't know what your local
market is like, but you would probably get at most $900 for a D-35 around here 
(Boston area).

Jim

    Feeling the need for a birthday present for myself (don't ask, but if
    you've been paying attention, I'm as old as the Epi Emperor I mentioned
    in another note recently), I ordered a Martin D-45KLE.
    
    The last Martin I owned was a 1969 D-41, which I sold in 1973 after
    buying an Ovation Custom Legend, I preferred the feel of the Ovation
    neck, and it had better projection for the type of music I was playing.
    Martin's quality at that time was only fair and I never regretted
    selling the D-41.
    
    The D-45KLE is one of Martin's "Guitar of The Month" series. It has a
    curly koa body, Englemann top (with "matched bear claws", no less),
    scalloped bracing,  snowflake inlay on the fretboard and bridge,
    rosewood peghead overlay, extra abalone purfling (as though the
    standard D-45 pearl work weren't enough), diamond volute and engraved
    tuners. A Mark Leaf case is included in the $7800 list price.
    
    Sometimes, when you first open a guitar case you are stunned by what
    lays within. I wish I could tell you I had that reaction, but I didn't.
    The guitar was very pretty, but not excitingly so. Very curly koa, nice
    wood on the top (though the "bear claws" don't do much for me),
    beautiful inlay work, outstanding woodwork (the inside of the guitar is
    immaculate), no rough edges on the  properly-leveled frets; I was
    extremely impressed with the overall quality of the guitar. The "low
    profile" neck feels fine--much better shaped than on my D-41, and had
    the proper amount of relief. The action, though, was atrocious: it
    looked like I could remove half the bridge saddle with no problem.
    
    Soundwise, it was a little crisper than a typical rosewood dreadnought,
    and had a good balance. It was only moderately loud. 
    
    After staring at it over the weekend, I decided it wasn't for me and
    packed it back up. I was satisfied enough with Martin's quality to
    order an MC-68--I suspect that this will be more to my taste.
    
    
    
    Danny W.

    Whoa, you *ordered* $7800 guitar and sent it back? Damn, now I know I'm
    way behind you hi paid deccies. In my wildest dreams I can't imagine
    spending dollars that tall. Jeez, did you order it sight unseen too?
    Damn!
    
    "sakman"

Major splurge Danny !!!

RE: Sakman

$Set mode/rhetoric

Yo dood, if you spent that kind of $$ on a guitar and it wasn't the
guitar of your life, wouldn't you send it back ??

    Guys,  it's beyond my wildest dreams to spend that much on a 
    (to paraphrase Leo Kottke - 'The Student Prince') "mere gitter".
    Sure would love to play it though.  BTW, for that much money it
    had better sound like a pre-war D-28.

    Martins as shipped from Martin *always* have very high action
    (unless something has changed). I think they expect you to adjust
    it to your liking. When I ordered my custom OM-28 through the
    Music Emporium, they adjusted the action for me (without my even
    asking) as soon as it came it, before they let me know it had
    arrived. (I think they just wanted to play it - the last time
    they'd gotten a couple of these in, Eric Schoenberg kept one for
    himself.)

    I didn't send it back, either ... great sounding and looking
    guitar. Didn't cost *anything* like $7800, though.

    The price I quoted is list--the price to me was considerably lower. As
    to ordering "sight unseen", I've purchased and sold hundreds of guitars
    through UPS. I buy all my new stuff from the same place I've dealt with
    since '68 and I buy vintage equipment from a small group of dealers
    I've learned to trust over the years. They all know my tastes and my
    standards. If I get something I don't like, I send it back, so there
    isn't any risk.
    
    I hate music stores and go into them only under duress. When I went to
    the  Boogie dealer in NH, I found it hard to concentrate on the sound
    of the amp I was testing, since the kid across the aisle had a monster
    Peavey amp fully cranked and was demonstrating every metal lick known
    to humankind. For the cost of a UPS shipment, I can test things in my
    home without such distractions. If Music Emporium had this Martin in
    stock, I would have spent 3 hours just driving there and back. 
    Shipping costs about what I would have spent on gas.
    
    Another reason I shop by phone is selection. My dealer typically has
    250 Les Pauls, twice that number of Strats and hundreds of other
    guitars in stock. When I wanted a white SG/LP Custom last year, he had
    5, including an anniversary model that I returned. When he has more
    than one of the item I want, he'll pick the best of the lot. If I want
    a guitar with special wood or a particular neck feel, he'll look
    through his stock for me. If I want something special, he has enough
    clout with most of the guitar makers so he can get it quickly. If it
    takes longer than they promise and I've lost interest in it, he has no
    problem keeping it for his inventory. When I return something, I get no
    hassle--although I return 2 out of every 3 guitars I order, I keep
    enough to make me one of his best customers.
    
    Since this is a Martin topic, let me mention that Martin guitars hold
    their value very well. I suspect that I could have kept the D-45KLE for
    several years and sold it for a profit.  Its current selling price is
    in the same range as a quality carved-top guitar. I buy guitars only
    when I like them--if they increase in value, that's a pleasant bonus. 
    
    As far as Martin's factory setup, it is ridiculously high for most
    players. Sure, it only takes 10-15 minutes to fix it, but why put that
    burden on the dealer or buyer? For those few who really like the action
    this high, including an extra saddle in the accessory pocket would add
    about $3 to the mfg. cost. Despite Martin's stand on "tradition", they
    have added adjustable truss rods and low profile necks. Shipping
    guitars properly set up should be next on their list.
    
    Danny W.
    
    

    I assume my dealer set up my HD-28, because it plays wonderfully.  Any
    lower action would be too low for me. 
    
    I've played some D-28s in stores that felt like I should be using
    a slide.
    
    "hundreds of guitars"??!!!!  
    I need to tell my wife about this!  I don't seem so bad.  
    
    Jim  (who has ownly purchased and sold tens of guitars)
    

Some random thoughts on this discussion:

I always considered "bearclaw" to be a cosmetic wood defect.  Now, with the 
shortage of quality woods, this is being billed as a feature.  Somehow this
smacks of marketing.

As for buying sight-unseen, I bought my D-40BLE that way and was satisfied.
I would have liked the Brazilian rosewood to have more figure, but the top
was way beyond what I had hoped for.  There wouldn't have been any problem
sending this guitar back since there were people waiting in line to buy it.
I would agree with Danny's comments about the quality of the high-end limited
edition series from Martin.  There isn't much to be improved on.

"Guitar of the Month" - Does anybody know what was offered this year?

Then there is the "Martin action".  I asked Martin to set the action down to
a comfortable, medium-low level.  It came set up just like I asked.  The low
profile neck and the low action make for a very easy to play guitar.  I don't
think Martin understands that there are lots of folks out there that never 
adjust the action and suffer with these high actions for years.  This is 
something that needs to change.

How about those Mark Leaf cases?  Absolutely over-the-top in guitar cases.

RE: How about those Mark Leaf cases?  Absolutely over-the-top in guitar cases.
    
    I always get a chuckle out the add that Mark Leaf has out.  The
    guitar in the case is a Takamine N-10.  The case costs more than 
    the guitar it is holding.
    

    Dana Bougeous (sp?) the guy who voices the Schoenenberg guitars told me
    that bear claw is the best sounding wood for tops (after I made a
    comment about how I thought it was sort of neat looking but I didn;t
    really like it) in his humble opinion. he then looked at me like I was
    some sort of heretic or maybe an electric guitarist (at best) ;-)
    
    dbii

I had an interesting conversation with someone who talks a lot with the Martin
factory.  It seems like the new limited edition guitars will feature Indian
rosewood.  India has stopped, or severely limited, export of rosewood and 
Martin is starting to run out of this type of wood.  It also appears that Martin is having difficulty in getting Bolivian rosewood and there
is doing lots of experiments on finding a substitute for any source of rosewood.

At the present time, Martin is charging an additional $1800 for use of Brazilian
rosewood for guitars ordered through the custom shop.  Since Martin was 
unwilling to pay the $500,000 bid price for the last Brazilian rosewood log
sold at auction.  It looks like we are at the end of the line for rosewood 
acoustic guitars.

Jim

    Could someone please define the term "bear claw"?
    
    						Brian

>    Could someone please define the term "bear claw"?
    
Brian, it's a pastry made in the shape of a bear claw with white frosting/glaze
on the top.


    Mike
    
    "in this day & age...music performed by humans...hum?!" 
       - wilde silas tomkyn

Bearclaw refers to "imperfections" in the grain of the wood.  It would look 
something like this:
 
------^------^--------
------^------^--------
------^------^--------
------^------^--------

The lines are the grain in the spruce (or what-have-you) top.  Matched
bearclaw would have two book-matched pieces together sort of like the
matched pieces on a LP flametop.  I have never seen a top without *some*
imperfection in the grain.  Bearclaw is usually obvious and continues 
over several grains of the top.

Jim

	Looking for a used D28?

	From the June 23, 1992 issue of Elderly Used Instrument Catalog:


	Martin D28 (1943)

	G-VGC (good to very good condition), scalloped braces, herringbone
	trim, refinished back, sides and neck, some restoration back to
	original specs, recent neck reset, killer guitar, with OHSC
	(original hard shell case) (SN 84624)

	price:



	$13,500.00   (gulp!!!)

	They've also got a 1924 00-45 for only $10,000.00  =8-0

    Just got off the phone with a pal who knows a little about guitars
    (enough to know the big names).  He'd been up in Ontario for a few
    weeks.  The conversation went something like:  
    
    "Charlie, I might have passed up a good deal; I was at an antique fair,
    and someone had a Martin with that - whaddyacallit, herringbone? -
    trim.  It was from 1934, in good shape; the guy wanted $135.00 for it. 
    Did I miss a good deal?"  There's just silence on my end.  After I
    recovered and told him that BOTTOM for a guitar like that is, say
    $1000, and I've seen it go as high as around $13K, well, there was a
    lot of silence on his end...
    
    Charlie

Did anyone see the VISA commercial running on TV.  It is sort of like those
commercials that say "if you think he's tough, wait 'til you see the ticket
takes at the Olympics".  They show a wall of guitars and say something like 
"in Nashville at Gruhn Guitars, you can buy a 1934 Martin D-28, but you better
have your VISA card because they don't accept American Express."

Jim (who wishes he could afford a '34 D-28)

    My wife caught it, and then called me in when it came on again.
    She knew I would get a kick out of the commecial.  
    
    You couldn't buy a 1934 Martin D-28 with MY VISA card.
    
    Another Jim (who wishes he could afford a '34 D-28)

    Wow, if *I* could buy a 1934 Martin D-28 with a VISA card, I'd better
    be getting one PRONTO!
    
    gh

     I betcha they're referring to the Reissue '34 Martin. Mandolin
     Bros have them listed in the latest catalog. I forget how much.

     Neal

I think they meant a real '39 (not '34 as I recalled the first time) and not 
a reissue.  Gruhn Guitars is noted for being one of the bigger sellers of
vintage Martin guitars.

Jim

    so, what's the deal with these re-issue Martins? THis is the first
    I've heard of them. Not that I could afford one anyway :-)
    
    - Dave

    I've got a 1934 re-issue (leastways, it's a reissue of SOMETHING in
    the thirties...).  It has four things that are different from the
    standard HD-28.  It has a tortoiseshell pickguard, v-shaped neck,
    squared headstock (that just means that the  �-inch-radius-curve is
    just about squared off), and diamonds-and-squares inlaid fret markers. 
    It also has the Englemann spruce top, as opposed to the usual Sitka.

    For new, it's a great-sounding guitar.

    Charlie

It used to be that Martin pretty much made their standard models and that was 
it.  In the 1980's Martin started making a larger variety of instruments
including custom guitars (you pick the features and they build it) and their
Special Edition guitars.  The Special Edition guitars include everything from
the Vintage Series which are basically limited series of reissues of famous
models (like a '34 D-28 or a '39 D-45) to the Guitars-or-the-Month Special
Editions which add some things that differentiate them from regular production
models (a little pearl inlay, engraved tuners, fancy fret markers, etc.).
Some of these guitars are not off scale in price from the standard Martin 
prices, but most are for the upscale market.  Overall, these are very well made
instruments that sound and look great.  This is the only place where you will 
find the new Brazilian rosewood Martins.  Whether or not they are worth the
price is, like most everything, a personal decision.  They are making some nice
stuff these days.

Jim

A friend asked me what $$$$ nowadays has to be paid for a pre-WWII 000-18 / 
000-28 ? Maybe somebody over there has got infos (Gruhn/Mandolin Brothers/etc 
catalogue?)...? 

(I wonder myself: Are 000s lower in price than respective Ds? And are they 
popular?)

Thanks,

FeliX.

A one-year old Mandolin Bros. catalog shows a OM-18 (1930) for $3450 and a 
OM-18 (1932) for $4500.  

Jim

RE .-1

I thought old OMs are much rarer than 000s, only produced ca. 1929-1932. 
As far as I know the 000 model switched to standard 14 fret neck when the OM 
was discontinued (same size body, but slightly shorter scale than OM and D). 
Since the 000 was never discontinued - are they as rare (and therefore 
expensive) as OMs ?

FeliX.

The 14 fret neck started in 1929 and Martin used the OM label for these 000 
guitars.  In 1933 the OM was dropped and the 000 was used because most (all?) 
of the 000 were 14 fret instruments.  Newer instruments often have the suffix
S to indicate a 12 fret neck (i.e. D-28S).  An old OM is rare, but if it were
my money I'd rather have a 000 from 1939 than a OM from 1932.  Your mileage
may vary.

Jim

Jim, I totally agree with you - I just wondered if 30ies 000s tend to be 
somewhat lower in price than the quoted OMs due to less rarity (and 
therefore being somewhat less attractive to mere collectors)- 
any idea ?

FeliX

I think there are more players than collectors buying these old Martins
although sometimes that distinction is not so clear.  Besides I think the
big collector focus is on the dreadnaughts instead of on the 000 or OM
(don't try to buy an old D-28 or D-45 for less than the price of a new car).

Jim

>of the 000 were 14 fret instruments.  Newer instruments often have the suffix
>S to indicate a 12 fret neck (i.e. D-28S).  An old OM is rare, but if it were


Just a little nit.  Actually, the S designation refers to a slotted peghead,
like classical gits.

Bob

If we are going to pick nits, we might as well go all the way.  Page 45 in
Mike Longworth's book on Martin guitars says:

"In late 1967 the 12 fret model entered the regualr Martin line in the form of
the D-18S, D-28S abd D-35S.  All now have slotted heads though some of the
specially built early ones could have been equiped with either solid or slotted
heads.

Eqrly Dreadnaught guitars, as all other Martins, sometimes used the "S" suffix 
to denote "special".  This meant a variety of things; fancy pickguards, a 
change in neck width, a name inthe fingerboard, or virtually anything which
made the guitar different from the norm."

So while "S" does not specifically denote "Slotted", in fact most of the guitars
made with an S suffix are slotted, but not all.

Jim

>                         <<< Note 74.193 by E::EVANS >>>


I stand corrected and nit-faced.  :^)

I once met Mike Longworth because I play a D-35S.  Part of his job is to 
travel around to Bluegrass and Folk festivals and he happened to be at 
a festival where my band was playing.  After the set he approached me to 
chat about the S models and to chastise me for slinging the guitar over
my back with the strap across my chest (the peg can come out and what follows
is not a pretty sight).

Speaking of 12-fret vs 14-fret (were we?), Mike has a story in his book
about how the 14-fret model came about.  The plectrum banjo player, Perry 
Bechtel, visited the factory around 1928 and, according to the story, ordered
a 14-fret model to facilitate banjo style playing.  I believe the book 
even says that the first 14-fret model was built for Perry(?)  Anyway, I
knew Perry (and jammed with him!) in his latter days and I remember when Mike 
Longworth sent him a copy of the book along with a kind note reflecting on 
his contribution to guitar history.  I asked Perry about the incident and he
remembered touring the factory and talking about designs, but he said if 
they built a guitar for him they were mighty late in shipping it because he 
never got one.

Bob

My local music store has now got a 1991 Martin "guitar of the month" - a 
"D-28LSH" which stands for "large soundhole". It looks like Martin wants to 
have a kind of "reissue" of the legendary Clarence White/Tony Rice guitar, 
too - after Santa Cruz's successful Tony Rice model... 

BTW the D-28LSH is not just a "modified" standard D-28, it is a Herringbone 
model with some additional inlay work (abalone ring around soundhole, 
snowflakes on bridge etc.).

Does anybody know if an enlarged soundhole makes a significant difference in 
tone/volume or whatever?

Felix.

P.S. The shop will also get a Martin guitar of the month 1992 "D-18VH" or 
similar which is supposed to stand for "Vintage Honduras"... whatever that 
is...?

     Anyone know of a music store in Massachusetts that has Martin
     Shanandoah guitars in stock? I'm interested in the HD2832, which
     is the herringbone model.

     Neal

    Re: .196
    
    Union Music in Worcester carries the Shenandoah line, call them for
    what's in stock.  508-753-3702
    
    						Brian

>Does anybody know if an enlarged soundhole makes a significant difference in 
>tone/volume or whatever?

I don't know if there's ever been a real test of this but I've heard one 
person claim it increases the volume a little and fattens up the tone.  

"Vintage Honduras" might refer to Honduras mahogany, generally considered the 
best mahogany for guitars.


Bob

Last Saturday I had a look at a music shop nearby which has probably got the 
biggest selection of good quality acoustic guitars in Switzerland. They 
stock quite a lot of new Martin, Santa Cruz and Taylor models plus a couple 
of vintage guitars (some "vintage" I would just call "used"...). Apart from 
Martins classic HD-28, the D, OM and Tony Rice models from Santa Cruz Guitar 
Corporation seem to get more and more popular. They also had a koa body SC 
OM-2. They had a very good sounding 1967 Martin D-28 in excellent 
condition with beautiful Brazilian rosewood... made me think about trading 
in my 70ies D-35... I didn't try an old Martin 000 they have as well.

Next time I want to talk to the guy about prices... it would be very helpful 
for me to know what current US list and market prices are for:

- Martin HD-28 and 000-28
- Sanra Cruz Standard D, OM-2 and Tony Rice
- 50ies/60ies D-28 and 000-28 in excellent condition

Thanks very much.

FeliX.

>Next time I want to talk to the guy about prices... it would be very helpful 
>for me to know what current US list and market prices are for:

...

>- 50ies/60ies D-28 and 000-28 in excellent condition

That'd be two arms, two legs and one eyeball.  


Bob

two arms, two legs and one eyeball = about $2500-3000

Jim

For the very nice 1967 D-28 mentioned in .199 they ask around 5000 Swiss 
Francs (at the moment ca. US$ 3400) - but I am shure I could get the price 
further down. 

Considering .-1 this doesn't even sound as far overpriced as many new 
instruments are in this country (Switzerland)...  

FeliX.

P.S. Has anybody seen the Eric Clapton video "Layla" (from MTV "Unplugged"). 
Mr. Clapton plays a nice Martin - looks like a pre-WWII 000-42 to me.

Some guitars I looked at and played last weekend in a Swiss shop...
(incl. approximate tag prices of which you can get up to 20% off, 
but still: ouch!! )

Martin D-18 VH (Vintage Honduras - G. of the Month 1992)
sFr. 3200.- (US$ 2200)
Simple, but beautiful guitar actually, very nice Honduras mahogany, 
vintage specs, V-neck, very balanced, "warm" sound

Martin D-28LSH (Large Sound Hole - G. of the Month 1991)
sFr. 7000.- (US$ 4800)
Apparently very limited edition, snowflake tuners etc., nice top, 
quite good tone, but overpriced IMHO

Santa Cruz Tony Rice
sFr. 5200.- (US$ 3500)
High quality guitar, quite loud, but IMHO somewhat "cold" sound compared to 
the Martins

Didn't buy anything... :-)

FeliX. 

    According to an add in the new issue of GP (received in the main
    yesterday), Martin is introducing a new guitar: the D1.  Basic specs:
    
    	Size:	D
    	Top:	Solid spruce
    	Sides:	3-ply laminated mahogany
    	Back:	2-piece solid mahogany
        Finish: Some new stonger but still thin finish (I forget the name)
    	MLP:	Under $1000!!!!!
    
    Apparently this is a US-made Martin at a (by Martin standards) budget
    price, targeted against the Taylor 410 and various Takamines.  The
    3-ply sides were specifically mentioned as providing the necessary
    strength for a pre-amp cut-out.  
    
    As for the aforementioned Taylor, it didn't fair well in the GP
    accoustic/electric shootout.  I've played three of them -- one was
    very good, one was OK, and one was a dog...  Hopefully Martin will
    do better.
    
    Has anyone heard/seen/played one?
    
    Jim (who hopes a 000-1 might follow)

    Re note about the Guitars of the month 1992
    
    I recently bought the HD28-CTB (custom tortise bound aged toner inlay
    etc....)
    and really like it.  I beat it up with blues, flatpickin,
    classic rock etc.. and it punches with reckless abandon.
    
    lots of resonance and volume.
    
    As for the D18 mentioned earlier, that has the V-neck which 
    may be difficult for fast pickin styles
    
    As for the note on Large sound holes, the HD28-2R is 
    the current model with a large sound hole.  I found
    this model to be resonant from top to bottom
    yet not as punchy by far as the original HD28-LSH.
    
    By the way, these large sound holes are not a copy
    of the Tony Rice S.C.   The senior Luthier at Martin
    Designed these from an old layout in the archives I think??
    
    Comment on the D1 - Why buy mahogany when you can get rosewood??
    
    
                            

>>    Comment on the D1 - Why buy mahogany when you can get rosewood??
    
    Two reasons:
    
    1) Price -- for under $1000, I'd rather have solid mahogany than laminated
    rosewood.
    
    2) Some people like, or even prefer, the sound of a mahogany guitar.
    
    To me, although mahogany guitars lack the crystal clarity of rosewood 
    ones, they do have a "warmth" that I like.  And while most people prefer 
    the sound of a rosewood guitar over a mahogany one, there are some 
    notable exceptions -- Leo Kottke comes to mind.
    
    On the other hand, my two primary acoustics are rosewood.
    
    Jim (who loves his HD-28, but from time to time thinks about buying a
         OOO-16C to keep it company)

    Re. .206
    
    For under $1000.00 it is  very difficult to find anything that 
    sounds tolerable to me these days be it Mahogany or Maple or 
    Laminated pine bark.  I would love for the D1 to be an
    exception.  
    
    By the way, I have had inexpensive Mahogany and Maple acoustics
    and enjoyed them for their own sake.
    
    However, lets talk Martin Forte..  Rosewood and Spruce..
    
    The 90s are the golden rebirth days of acoustic guitar lutherie.
    I say take advantage of all the Rosewood Martins you can.  For
    between $1200.00 and $1500.00 (Elderly et.al..)you can buy Killer 
    Martin Acoustic guitars.
    
    Put the extra few hundred bucks into another vintage hierloom you 
    can pass on for generations.  Remember, Rosewood is a
    shrinking resource.  I.E. Brazilian**
    
    I agree though if you find a mellow Mahogany that you cant
    keep your fingers off buy it.  It will make a great swap up 
    guitar to go on stage with your HD-28.
    
    By the way, whats the best price you found on the 000-16C
    
            

>>>    By the way, whats the best price you found on the 000-16C
    
    40% off list from either Elderly or Wildwood Music in Coshocton, OH.  
    If I remember right, that comes to about $850 for the OOO-16 and about 
    $950 for the OOO-16C.
    
    I played a OOO-16 at Wildwood when I bought my HD-28 there, and really
    liked it quite a bit.   I couldn't justify buying both at once, though.
    The HD-28 is definitely more versatile, but the OOO would be nice for
    some nice quiet fingerstyle stuff.
    
    RE: finding a solid mahogany guitar for under $1000...
    
    Taylor has their 410 that LISTS just under a 1000.  The sound quality
    seems to vary quite a bit, however.  I've played three of them -- one
    was very nice, one was OK, and the third was a real dog.  I've been
    reasonably impressed with Martin's D-16s and OOO-16s, so I have hopes
    for the D1 (not that I'm necessarily interested in buying one, I just
    think it would be good for the market).
    
    Jim

    Re: D28-LSH
    
    The Real Story*******
    
    Two brothers gettin' into the music business (as artists) were looking 
    for a guitar.  They found an old Pre-War Martin D28 Herringbone (1934) 
    that was pretty much trashed! . . . needed a new neck and was eroded 
    severely around the soundhole from pick wear, etc.
    
    After setting a neck from another instrument and they decided to remove
    all the wood to the rosette for appearance sake.  The guitar and its 
    owner went on to become renowned in flatpickin' circles.
    
    The artist was Clarence White.  Unfortunately, Clarence is no longer
    with us, but that guitar sure is!  The current owner is Tony Rice.
    Hence, the confusion!
    
    It's not a SCG.  Later, Santa Cruz began making a copy of the original
    Martin D-28 . . . the Tony Rice model.  And Martin, under heat from
    their pickin' constituent issued the limited edition D28-LSH to satisfy
    requests for a large soundhole pre-war speck guitar.
    
    The LSH was limited to 200 copies signed by C. F. Martin IV and Lester
    Wagner, the retiring (in 1991) senior luthier.  All copies are signed
    on the underside of the top by all Martin employees who had a part in
    the contruction of the particular instrument.
    
    Demand for the LSH's which were limited prompted Martin to build the
    production model - HD28-2R.  The 2R standing for the 2 herringbone
    rosettes (like the two abalone rosettes of the LSH) around the large
    (4 1/2") soundhole.
    
    As for the original, Tony still has it.  We see him often at bluegrass
    festivals throughout the South.  Sometimes he's playin' it - sometimes
    he plays his namesake from SCG.
    
    If you look at the cover of some of his CD's (the first Tony
    Rice/Norman Blake for example) you can see it. 
    
     . . . . now, Norman Blake that's another issue altogether!
      

Martin is most famous for flat top guitars, but I read in the 1930ies they 
also produced archtop models with carved top, some with f-holes. Has anybody 
ever seen/played such a guitar? Were there/are there well-known musiscians 
who use(d) them? Are they collector's items?

FeliX.

I noticed that on different Martin models the headstock/neck area on the 
back is different: some are plain (like D-35), and some (like HD-28) feature 
a design that Mike Longworth's Martin book calls a "diamond". I could not 
find any infos if this "diamond" is an old Martin design used on the 
early D-models or if it was introduced later. Does anybody know? And is this 
"diamond" only cosmetic or does it serve a purpose?

FeliX.

FeliX,

You seem to have a lot of Martin questions.  Go buy the Mike Longworth book
"Martin Guitars - A History".  It costs about $20 and it will answer most of
the questions you have asked.  For example, on page 50, second paragraph:

"Cedar necks were usually in two pieces, the neck still being grafted while 
the heel was one piece with the stem of the neck.  The decorative "diamond"
seen on the back of the head of style 28 guitars and the pearl models is a
holdover from the dove-tail that joined the neck and the headstock."

Longworth's book will give you information on special edition guitars, list
prices for the last eighty years, the number of each model made, information
on Martin mandolins and arch-top guitars - in other words, more than you 
would ever reasonably want to know.  I'm sure that you can order it directly
from Martin (215-759-2837) if your local guitar shop doesn't sell it.

Jim

    RE: Martin archtops
    
    While I suppose that any old Martin has a certain "collector" appeal,
    I do not believe that Martin archtops are particularly notable as
    anything other than a curiosity.  I remember reading somewhere that the
    Martin M series had its origin in some individual luthiers removing
    the tops of Martin archtops and replacing them with standard spruce
    flat tops...
    
    Jim
    

Martin does one thing well.  They make good flat top, steel string guitars.
I'm not surprised to hear that they made inferior arch-tops considering
how poorly they did on classicals and mandolins.  Ever play a Martin mandolin? 
They were fairly expensive but sounded like Sears Worst.  And the classicals
were beautifully made but just didn't have a decent voice.

Bob

Thanks for your infos - I actually ordered the Martin book through a guitar 
shop three months ago, and it just arrived yesterday... took it a while to 
come all the way to Switzerland... - from what I have seen so far: you are 
right, this book answers quite a lot of questions ;-)

FeliX.

    RE: Martin mandolins
    
    I believe that the old bowl-back mandolins are fairly highly regarded,
    but the A/F style mandolins are not generally considered desirable.
    
    Of course, there isn't much of a market for bowl-back mandolins.
    
    Jim

Here in Europe there is a certain (quite small) market for bowl-back 
mandolins for use in Italian etc. folk music and classical music. But as far 
as I know these players prefer traditional Italian instruments.

A friend of mine has got an old Martin bowl-back mandolin - nice 
workmanship but not very useful... he uses it as a wall decoration (and 
therefore dust collector).

FeliX.

I didn't know they made A or F mandos.  I was referring to the bowl-back
or semi-lute-back or whatever.  It's not really a "taterbug" lute-back
style like the traditional European models.  Anyway, I've heard or played
maybe four or five of 'em and they all sounded puny.  Maybe they had good and 
bad years.

Bob

      Re. Martin Mandolins sound like Sears best.....
    
    Ouch! that hurts.
                                                            
    I play with a fellow that has a '30's Martin mandolin and it will
    blow you away..
    
    It is crisp, clear, full bodied (nope this is not a beer)
    sweet, LOUD, it's great.
    
    I have heard few Gibsons or Flatirons that rivaled this Mandolin.   
		
    It may be the only one that sounds this way - It's the only
    Martin Mandolin I have picked with - But it is a pleaser.
    
    Mike
        

>                     <<< Note 74.219 by ODIXIE::SPENCER >>>

>    I play with a fellow that has a '30's Martin mandolin and it will
>    blow you away..
    
I'm glad to hear that.  They feel good to play and they look like they should 
sound good.

Bob

    I've got a Martin 2-15 mandolin (tear-drop, carved top, F-holes, *not*
    lute-backed) dating to 1946 which for some years was my favorite
    mandolin (even when I had to send it back to Martin to have the top,
    which fractured, remanufactured). Since I got my Gibson A-2Z, the
    Martin's been a bit lonely, though. I always viewed it as more suitable
    for Irish tunes than bluegrass (but then again, that's what I was
    playing until I got the Gibson, so it's not an opinion I really trust). 

Does anybody know if Martin plans to offer the OM-28 as a 
"regular" (non-custom) model again? I read in the Martin history book (1987 
edition) that 1 OM-28V (Vintage) was built "for later consideration".

FeliX

    I don't know if its back in regular production or not, but Elderly
    Instruments in Lansing, MI (USA) has a new OM-28 in stock.  Its
    absolutely *wonderful*.  I was at Elderly last week and couldn't hardly
    put it down.  They also had a Santa Cruz OM-28 style guitar, but the
    Martin (IMO) sounded MUCH better, and was $700 cheaper ($1440).
    
    I actually thought about trading in my HD-28, which seemed unthinkable
    to me before.
    
    						Jim

My 1991 Mandolin Bros. catalog shows the OM-28 as a standard orderable model.
Most current models to not have a V-neck.  If you want to know for sure,
call Martin directly.

Jim

Jim,

sounds very interesting, would be nice to know more details about that 
OM-28: has it got more "vintage" features like square head, V-profile neck 
etc. or is it a "modern" adaption of the original model ? 
I hope they do them with the 1�" wide neck (slightly wider than post-'39 
14-fret Martins) - a feature I like so much on the 1979 OM-45 I play most of 
the time.

FeliX.

A few months ago I tried a couple of Santa Cruz OMs (including one with Koa 
top/body) but I was not that impressed by their sound (and they were 
expensive!).

    

    The OM-28 styling was not "vintage", but basically the same
    appointments as a modern D-28.  It had the wider neck, but it 
    wasn't the V-profile (fine with me).  No banjo tuners or peghead
    inlay, either.   
    
    
    					Jim
    

> appointments as a modern D-28.  It had the wider neck, but it 

But I assume it had the scalloped bracing ?
(otherwise I wouldn't call it an "OM" ;-)

FeliX

P.S: my reply .225 should have said "1 3/4 inch neck width" 
(the notes system didn't eat the "3/4" character)

    Yes, the OM-28 has scalloped bracing.
    
    Jim
    

	Has anyone seen or heard of the D76 lately. That was the model
Martin put out for the U.S. Bi-Centenial in 1976. Supposedly 1,776 of them 
were made. Very nice ebony fingerboard, Americal Eagle on the head stock, 
Stars for the fret markers. John Fayhey (sp?) is posing on the cover of one
of his albums with one. 

-John-

    D76's are readily available from vintage dealers. They never became
    very popular--dealers still had unsold new ones well into the '80's.
    
    They are usually priced around $1500.
    
    Danny W.

    Anybody have any knowledge of the Venetian cutaway (model escapes me)
    with on-board MEQ 932?  Specifically, naturalness/smoothness/balance
    of the live powered sound.
     
    Any comments on the unpowered acoustic resonance also appreciated.
    (vis-a-vis the venetian soundhole)
                                                                    
    Thanks
    

I understand that there will be a Brazilian rosewood D-45 limited edition
model this year.  50 guitars will be built with tree-of-life up the 
fingerboard onto the headstock (and maybe down onto the pickguard and bridge).

List price $18,000.   Hang onto those rosewood Martins.

Jim

    I bought an HD28-P last night.  First thing I did when I got home was
    mic it with a 414 and all I can say is...WOW.  It sounded great in the
    store but the sound to tape is awesome.   I had no idea what I'd been
    missing all these years.  I also tried a 710 and I like it very much.
    I think it was maple.  I imagine the contrasting sound would blend
    nicely with the rosewood.  If only I had an extra 15 bills.
    
    jeff
    

re: " "p" stands for low profile neck"

I thought the low profile neck was the standard neck.  I remember some of the
early instruments having the "P" designation, but I thought this had been
dropped.  Is this used instrument?  If it is new, does it say "HD-28-P"
on the inside neck block?

Jim

    Jim,
    
    Its about a year old and yes it says "HD-28-P".  They had new ones of
    the same flavor in the store.  I was told by a friend who works there
    that the "p" stood for the low profile neck.  Not having much
    experience with these guitars, I wouldnt know the difference.  Does
    it mean something else?
    
    jeff
    

Yes, the P does denote the low profile neck (which I think is the best neck
profile that they have ever produced).  I recall reading that the P had been
dropped some time ago.  Clearly this is not the case.

Jim

    RE: "P" designation...
    
    My '91 HD-28 is an HD-28P, also.   The low profile neck IS standard, but
    the official model number still seems to have the P...
    
    BTW, I'll be diving through Pennsylvania in a couple of weeks, and
    I plan to stop and tour the Martin factory.  Maybe they'll be giving
    out free samples.  ;^)
    
    Another Jim 

They *DO* give out free samples on the Martin factory tour.  Unfortunately what
they give you is the hole cut out of the guitar top.  Ask Mike Longworth about
the P designation.  He is paid to know all this stuff.

Enjoy the tour.  :-)

Jim

I just bought a used HD28 and it has the standard Martin factory 
set up, i.e. high action.   Although I'm constantly tweaking
the action on my electrics, I'd like to leave this job for a pro.
Anyone have any recommendations for a set-up job for a Martin in the
So. N.H, Ma. area?  I'm inclined to take it to the Music Emporium in
Cambridge Ma since I'd guess they're one of the largest Martin dealers
in New England and probably have lots of Martin repair experience.  
Any other recommendations?

Thanks,_Mark

    I'd go with the Music Emporium. They have a lot of experience with
    Martin setup; they routinely lower the action of every Martin they get
    in before they sell it (the action on my OM was perfect the day I picked
    it up).

    Well its been a week since my shopping spree at Elderly instruments
    in which I bought a new OM-28 and a used D-16H.
    
    I'm totally infatuated with the OM.  Its got great balance and superb
    tone -- exactly what I was looking for when I started my quest for
    a fingerpicker's guitar.  It has wonderful individual string definition,
    but still has lots of interesting overtones and resonance going on 
    (many of the other guitars I tried seem to sound, at least to me,
    too "transparent" -- great single string definition, but lacking
    overtones).  When I got it, the action was way to high (standard 
    Martin flatpick as hard as you like action), but a setup job 
    took care of that.  I also am quite happy with the slightly wider
    fingerboard and string spacing (compared to "standard" steel-string
    spacing).  My guess is that this instrument will likely become my
    most played guitar (although I'm sure my HD-28 won't be neglected).
    
    The D-16H as a nice, warm, sweet tone.  Although it has simple styling,
    the matte finish, herringbone rosette, and diamond and squares
    fretboard inlay make for an attractive and somewhat unique looking
    instrument.  The price was right, and it gives me a guitar that
    I can take with me places where I'd might be a little leary of taking
    the HD or OM (although it certainly doesn't qualify as a "beater"
    guitar); but I can also see me getting it out to play from time to 
    time just because I like its sound (something that never happened
    with the Takamine N-10 I traded in). 
    
    Jim (Happy in Martin land)

From: [email protected] (John Wettlaufer)
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
Subject: Martin Guitar on Internet
Date: 12 Sep 1994 13:34:49 -0400
Organization: Oasis Telecommunications
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Greetings guitar enthusiasts:

     The Martin Guitar Co. of Nazareth, PA, is currently assessing its 
internet needs.  We would like your input.  Send your ideas, requests, or 
comments on how Martin can be an internet resource to:

[email protected]

Concepts under consideration include on-line and downloadable production 
info, historical texts, spec. sheets, handling & care advice, product 
announcements, press releases, mailing lists, news letters, etc...

The more specific your concept the better.  Mail expressing an interest 
in using such a resource is welcome as well.

Thank you for your time,

John Wettlaufer
The Martin Guitar Co.
[email protected]

    In the latest issue of Acoustic Guitar, there is a comparison of a
    number of mid-priced ($1000 to $1700 MLP) smaller bodied (000 and
    smaller) guitars.  Two Martins were among the 13 guitars reviewed:
    the 000-16 and the (new!) 000-1R.  The Martin 000-16 received the 
    top composite rating in the review.  Other guitars under consideration
    included a Taylor 512, guitars by Larivee, Thompson, Breedlove,
    Alvarez Yairi, a Gibson Blues King, a Washburn Lyon and Heally
    re-issue, a Takamine Sante Fe, and a couple others I can't remember.
    FWIW, I've played examples of about half of the guitars under
    review, and the ratings by the AG reviewers generally matched my 
    personal opinions.
    
    The 000-1R was not as favorably reviewed as the 000-16, but was 
    considered a good value (and finished in the top 5, if I remember
    correctly).  A 000-1 (mahogany) was mentioned as being available,
    but was not reviewed.
    
    This is the first I've heard of the 000-1 guitars.  They are 000-sized
    versions of the D-1 and D-1R.  Like the D1, the 000-1 has 3-ply
    laminate sides, and a solid mahogany back.  The 000-1R (like the D-1R)
    has laminate Indian Rosewood sides and back.  I believe both have the
    same matte finish as the D1.
    
    When the D1 was introduced, I mentioned that I hoped Martin might
    introduce a 000-1.  Well they apparently have, but I'm no longer
    interested.  My OM-28 and D-16H have satisfied my desires for
    a smaller bodied guitar, and one made from mahogany (I had compared
    the D-16H against the 000-16, and decided I liked the D better).
    
    In other Martin news, AG noted that Martin, in collaboration with 
    Eric Clapton, will be issuing a special edition 000-42 EC, based 
    on Eric's 000-42 of "Unplugged" fame (or infamy, depending on your
    personal opinion of the unplugged version of "Layla" and EC).
    
    Jim

    I recently saw someone advertising Martins assembled from factory
    kits.  It sounded like he would buy the kit from Martin, assemble
    it, then sell you the finished guitar.  Prices mentioned were in
    the $600 - $800 range (not sure if models were mentioned).
    
    Anybody know anything about these?  What are the kits like, quality,
    etc and what kind of guitar could you expect to get from one? 
    Possibly as good as a "real" Martin?
    
    /rick

    RE: Martin guitar kits
    
    Martin "kits" are available from Martin's Guitarmaker's Connection
    catalog.  Kits start at about $250 (if I remember correctly) for a
    D-18 style guitar, and work up from there.  Each kit contains
    pre-cut parts: the neck is rough shaped, the fretboard is slotted 
    and the sides are pre-bent.  No Martin logo (or warranty), however.
    I can't remember if the braces are pre-scalloped.
    
    The kits use quality materials, and if assembled by a person with
    the appropriate tools, talent, and experience, should yield a high
    quality instrument.  It will not have the resale value of a Martin,
    however.
    
    When I visited the Guitarmaker's Connection (located in the old
    Martin factory), I played a 000-18 that had been assembled from
    a kit.  It sounded pretty good, but not as good as most "real"
    000-18s.  It looked pretty rough, however (not a Martin quality
    finish job, by any measure).
    
    As far as buying an assembled kit, I would make sure I could return
    for a full refund, if I were not satisfied.  
    
    Bottom line for me, is I'd rather let Martin put my Martins together.
    
    Jim

    The current issue of Acoustic Guitar has an ad for the 000-42EC 
    Eric Clapton signature edition.  The guitar is based on Eric's two
    000 instruments of unplugged fame (or infamy, if you prefer): a 000-42
    with 42-style snoflakes and a 45-style headstock.  I don't know if
    it has a vintage style or low profile neck.  The label is signed by
    CFM IV and EC.
    
    My curriosity was piqued, so I called Elderly instruments (even though
    I'd prefer an OM-42).  List is just under $8,000, and they've already
    sold every 000-42EC they have on order.  If you want, they'll try
    to order you another one, or put you on a waiting list, in case someone
    changes his/her mind.  They are asking $4,800 (sunburst is extra).
    
    I didn't order one.
    

    I had a chance to tour the Martin factory two weeks ago and saw a
    number of the Eric Clapton guitars being built.  Lovely (but no, I'd
    never spend that kind of money).
    
    I recommend the tour highly.  It gave me an appreciation for the
    tremendous amount of handwork that goes into building a fine guitar.

    A couple of days ago I received a brochure (well actually two, one to
    Jim Allbery, and one to James -- maybe one was supposed to be to my
    9 month old son...) on two new Martins: the D16T and the D16TR.
    
    It looks like both guitars use the modified x-bracing developed for
    the D1 and the same general manufacturing techniques.   The main 
    difference is the D16T and D16TR are all solid wood (mahogany for
    the D16T and Rosewood for the D16TR), where the D1 has laminate
    sides, and the D1R has laminate back and sides.
    
    Appointments include tortoise-shell bindings and diamond and
    squares inlay (a nice touch).
    
    MLP for the D16T was about $1600, so it should go for $960 from
    Elderly.  Not bad.  I'm guessing the new D16T replaces the D16 that
    has been the entry-level solid wood guitar for the last few years.
    If Martin follows what it did with its D1 line, a OOO-16T and OOO-16TR 
    should follow.  Maybe not, though, since the existing OOO-16 and 
    OM-21 models pretty much cover the same ground.
    
    Jim 

I played a nice 000-42EC (the Eric Clapton model with EC's signature) at the
Music Emporium last week.  I was floored when I was told that price of $8100!
It seems that there is sufficient demand that they can sell them for list price.
I think $8100 is outrageous - it isn't even Brazillian rosewood and there it is
part of a run of 700+ instruments!   Although it played and sounded really nice,
I think I'll pass on this one.   $8100!  Jeesshhh.

Jim

    I thought it was outrageous at 40% off of list, which was what
    Elderly Instruments was asking.   They ended up selling their
    entire supply before the guitars arrived in the store, though.
    
    I thought Martin was only going to build 435 (as in Ocean Blvd.) 
    of them.  Maybe they increased the run due to the demand.
    
    You could probably custom order a 000-45 or OM-45 with style 42 
    snowflake inlay and Brazillian rosewood for less than $8100.  Of
    course, it wouldn't have EC's signature, but I could live with
    that.  I think the waiting list for custom Martins is about
    18 months (at least it was about a year ago), though.
    
    
    Jim

    Can anybody venture and educated guess (or book value) for a circa '62
    D-28?  Where could I get a certified appraisal for insurance purposes?
    
    Thx,
    
    Jonathan

    For the appraisal, take it to the Music Emporium in Lexington (since
    POWDML is Maynard).

Well behind the case when they had this 000-42EC was a very clean 1960's D-28
with a SOLD sign on it.  When I asked they said it sold for $6700!  I think 
that is just as rediculous.  I expect these prices are higher than Gruhn Guitars
in Nashville.  

Jim

    I recently saw an absolutely mint early/mid sixties D-28 listed
    at $3500.  I'd consider this a pretty good deal (relatively speaking) 
    for a quality Brazilian rosewood instrument.  
    
    Gruhn will give you an appraisal for a small fee (I'm sure the
    fee and address is in this notes conference somewhere).
    
    Another Jim

    Was the 60's D28 made of Brazillian Rosewood?  From what I'm hearing, 
    anything made of BR is commending a premium price these days. 
    
    I wonder how much my turn-of-the-century BR acoustic would be 
    worth. I would guess at least $1k considering the prices on
    similar Martins.
    
    Mark

All rosewood Martin guitars were Brazilian until the late 60s.   The exact 
date depends on the model.  Lower end models went to Indian rosewood first
and the D-45s were the last.  The switch-over model numbers are pretty well 
documented.  Serial number 250,000 was around the change-over point.
Certainly all rosewood Martins from the early and mid-1960's were Brazilian.

I'm not sure how much premium is put on non-Martin Brazilian rosewood guitars.
Generally, I don't think the pricing on used Martins is a good indicator of 
pricing in other parts of the used guitar market.

Jim

    This is one of those Why I Like Martin stories.  I have a Custom 15,
    which is an HD-28 configured like the pre-war D-28; square(er) peghead,
    V neck, diamonds & squares inlay, tortoise shell pickguard, and
    advanced bracing 1" from the sound hole.  Bought it new in 1990.

    I had a little problem with the finish; it was coming loose in certain
    places.  Local luthier said to return it to Martin for refinishing.  I
    did, and they sent back a repair quote saying they were going to:

      Replace the top (WHAT???)
      Replace the bridge
      Remove and replace the neck (because they're doing the top)
      Fix a few assorted cracks in the back
      Refinish the guitar
      Adjust the action

    All for free.  I forget a few other things they're going to do, but
    basically it'll be a new guitar.

    I said "why are they replacing the top?"  Guy tells me it's round and
    thin (i.e., it's slightly "bellied", which is OK in my book).  Well,
    OK with me.  To tell you the truth, I was never really satisfied with
    the sound of my particular guitar, and I think the top had a lot to do
    with it.

    Then I get a call today from Martin - they found out that during a
    certain transition period, they had put the conventional bracing on
    mine instead of the advanced bracing.  Would I like the advanced or
    conventional?  Hell, let's have the advanced.  

    I also told them that if it's all the same to them (actually, it's a
    few bucks cheaper), I'd like a Sitka spruce top this time instead of
    the Englemann spruce top. No problem, they say.  Oh, yes, they'll also
    put aging toner on it so it will look properly aged and I won't have to
    wait for it to turn colors this time...

    Tell you the truth, I was having this guitar refinished so I could sell
    it (I'm playing the D-18 more these days).  List is $3260 these days,
    with a street price of about $2300; I figured I could get about $2000
    for this one.  However, I'm afraid that when I get it back I won't be
    able to part with it.

    Charlie

    I'm currently in the market for a Martin.  I'm a classical player
    so steel string is very much a new adventure for me.  In looking
    through the most recent Martin brochure and price list, the J40 seems
    to stand out as an astonishing value compared with the other models.
    The J40 (Jumbo) is East Indian rosewood (2 p), bound ebony with abalone
    hexigon inlays, and gold tuners.  Compare the list price ($2750) with
    the HD28 ($2770) and I gotta ask why.  Not that I mean to imply that
    I wouldn't love an HD28 but it just is not equiped the same, but costs
    more?  Is it popularity of the models? Investment?  No one likes the
    Jumbo models?  It is curious to the uninformed.
    
    Would anyone be able to provide the value of a D-41 (I'm it'stold two
    years old but I don't have the SN), in almost "like-new" condition.
    This model does not have the hex inlay in the first fret, as do the
    newer D-41's.
    
    Also, any recommendations as to the best place to purchase or order
    a Martin in So. NH or Mass.?  I haven't found anyplace lower than
    30% off list.
    
    Thanks Much,
    Bob D.
                                                                    

    RE J40 vs HD28 ... I'm not familiar with the J40, so my comments are
    more generic: I wouldn't gauge cost strictly by content. For me, the
    biggest issues are sound and feel (and in that price range, they'd
    all better feel pretty good). When I was in the market for a
    bluegrass guitar a couple of years back I played several (and had
    'em played at me) and picked (so to speak) on that basis -- wound up
    with a Collings, which at the time I'd never heard of; I was
    expecting to come out with a Martin or Taylor.
    
    For a classical player, why are you looking at a jumbo or
    dreadnaught guitar, anyway? I'd think something like an OM-28 would
    be a better size, unless you're really looking for that dreadnaught
    sound.
    
    I lean towards the Music Emporium in Lexington for this kind of
    thing. (Actually, more than lean; I generally fall right over.)

I think Martin views the Jumbo size as a major new product line and therefore
is willing to provide some extra features while pricing it just below the 
HD-28.  Since the low are priced almost identically, you should go for the 
one that most appeals to you.  Remember looks are not everything.  These two 
instruments will sound different.  If you are interested in investment, 
I would expect that more folks would be interested in a HD-28 due to the very
long history of this model.

As a rule of thumb, I've been told that it takes five years before a Martin 
is worth on the used market what you paid for it new (assuming your got it 
for 30-40% off list).  I'd expect a nice two year old D-41 to sell for around  
50% of the current list price.

You won't do much better than 30% off if you want to buy locally.  If you 
want to order one from one of the big national retailers, you can get one 
for 40% with a right to send the guitar back if you don't like it.  I bought 
my Martin this say for 40% off from Wildwood Music in Coshocton, OH.  There 
are several other places that will give you 40% off, but I've not heard of 
anyone doing muc better than that.  I think I wrote a note in here that 
listed where I got quotations.  Everyly and Gruhn might be doiing 40% off
on the standard instruments.

Jim

    I'd concur with the previous note that says Martin is probably 
    trying to entice people with the pricing on the J40.  Probably
    more to the point, they are trying to entice dealers.  I read
    somewhere a quote from Chris Martin (C.F. Martin IV, the current
    CEO) that although sales of the J-series have been somewhat sluggish,
    the problem has been getting dealers to order it-- once the guitars
    are where people can try them out, they tend to sell reasonably
    quickly.  Also, since the J-series was the Chris Martin's idea,
    he's more likely to try and encourage its sales.
    
    As far as value compared to the HD-28... For a 40s-series instrument, 
    the J40 is pretty plain-- while it has the 3/4-size hexagon inlay, 
    it has no inlay along the binding.  But it does have the bound neck.  
    Both the J40 and the HD have scalloped bracing.  Martin probably
    sells more HD-28s each year than it has sold M and J series
    instruments, total.  So I guess people are willing to pay for what
    is (IMO) the quintessential Martin guitar. 
    
    As far as mail order sources, I'd recommend either Wildwood Music
    in Coshocton, OH, or Elderly Instruments in Lansing, MI.  I've dealt
    with both (although not via mail-order-- both are drivable from
    where I live), and have no complaints.  Both offer non-custom,
    non-special order Martins at 40% off.
    
    I've played a couple of J40s.  Nice guitars.  The folks at Elderly
    recommend them if you want to play a variety of styles, and one
    of the styles is bluegrass.
    
    As a classical player, another Martin you may want to consider is 
    the OM-28.  It is a smaller guitar (just a little bit bigger than
    your standard classical, but not quite as deep) than a D or J-size,
    and has a wider fretboard (although still narrow by classical guitar
    standards) and wider string spacing.  The OM and OOO-series instruments
    are preferred by many fingerstyle players.  The sound is more 
    balanced and less boomy.  The OOO and OM guitars have the same
    body size, but the OOO guitars have a slightly shorter scale (and
    a skinnier fretboard)-- the exception being the 000-16, which has
    the OM scale, but the 000-style neck.
    
    On the other hand, if you want something very different than
    you classical, or want to flatpick, the HD-28 is a great guitar 
    (and is braced light enough to respond well to fingerpicking), 
    as is the J40.
    
    Jim (who has seldom met a Martin that he *didn't* like)

    In fact, I have looked at the OM models.  I like 'em, a lot, and that
    will likely be my Martin purchase.
    
    I was up to Vintage Frets, in Ashland, NH. a couple of weeks ago.  Nice
    place...  Really, they should charge admission.  Very
    unique stuff in there.  They had a one-of-a-kind that belonged to
    Rudolf Valentino. (they swore they had some authentication.) Nice
    folks there, too.  I did find them expensive though. (e.g. 25% off Martins)
    
    Vintage Frets had this Limited Ed. OM model in a glass case.  Inlayed
    much like a D-45, except double inlay around the sound board.  They
    were asking $3,700...  The salesperson pulled it out of the case for me
    and before I tolk hold of it I noticed a nasty crack that ran from the
    soundhole to the base.  I pointed it out and watched the guy turn about
    six shades of white.  Anyway, I loved the looks of the model, but did
    not get a chance to play one yet.
    

    Vintage Frets had this Limited Ed. OM model in a glass case.  Inlayed
    much like a D-45, except double inlay around the sound board.  They
    were asking $3,700... 
    
    Yes, this was a '94 guitar of the month.   Actually its more like
    a double inlayed D-41 than a D-45-- the inlay is on the top only
    (D-45s have inlay around all bindings).  I looked at one when I bought
    my OM-28.  Although I loved the style 42 snowflake fretboard inlay,
    I decided against the OM-42LE (or whatever it was called) because
    of the v-shaped (vintage style) neck.  I also decided that the double
    inlay was a bit too much for my taste.
    
    $3,700 seems a bit high for that guitar, even without the crack.  If
    I remember right, list was $4400.
    
    Jim

    Oops--
    
    I re-read my note (2966.7) where I was looking for an OM-style
    instrument and tried out the limited edition OM.  I guess my 
    memory is less than perfect.
    
    The guitar was the OM-40LE (not OM-42LE).  Elderly's *discount*
    price was $4402-- list was $7100.  I should have known that $4400
    list was too low-- a vanilla OM-28 lists for about $3,000.
    
    If the guitar was not used, I wonder if Martin would replace the
    top under warranty?
    
    Anyway, a new OM-45 can be had for about $4,500 from Elderly.
    You'll probably have to wait for it though.  While they generally 
    stock OM-21s and OM-28s, I've never seen an OM-45 there.  
    Martin lead times are long, and I believe that all OMs other than
    the OM-21 are "special order" (i.e., instruments in the standard
    catalog-- not "custom"-- but Martin won't build one unless someone
    orders it).  Elderly apparently sees enough demand for OM-28s to
    keep them in stock, but not so for OM-45s.
    
    Jim

    From the "why do they do that" files ...
    
    Last night was the Country Music Awards show, of which I watched a
    little, and happened to catch Clint Black doing a solo acoustic
    number. He was playing what looked like either a D-45 or D-41
    (couldn't see the sides well enough to tell which).
    
    But he had one of those pickups installed in it that fills up the
    sound hole with some sort of anti-feedback plug. The thing came
    across sounding like it was full of styrofoam (like just about any
    pickup-equipped acoustic I've ever heard). Why play a nice guitar if
    you're going to do that to it?
    
    *sigh*
    

    Have you ever noticed how the camera never gets a good shot of the 
    headstock of any Martin guitar.  I heard that the reason for this is
    because the Martin Co is a Non-Union company therefore the 
    "Union brotherhood" will not do anything that could promote Martin.
    
    Having toured the factory several times, I tell you that they work
    vary hard.  I saw no socializing, just busy hands at work. (Of course
    this may be case only during tour time).
    
    I am going there again next week,,, can't wait.
    
    
    
    Bruce

    re: Clint Black
    
    Yeah, that tone was pretty terrible.  I wonder what kind of pickup
    system was installed.  It was too bad to blame entirely on the sound
    hole plug.
    
    FWIW, I think it was a D-41 (the hexagon inlays are smaller than
    a D-45), but I'm not sure.
    
    Jim

    Unwritten rule of cameramen  -> No Showing Martin Logo's
    
    Where did you hear this? Sounds Rediculous. 
    
    Larry (who doesn't see a conspircy in everything...only most things)

    
    	Fyi, today's USA Today has a full page section devoted to
    	Martin.  Five different articles.
    
    	Tom
    

I bought a new D35, sold it within a year and bought a new D28 - primarily 
because I didn't care for the sound of the D35 (or more specifically, THAT 
D35).  I have ceased being surprised by the difference in tone from one 
acoustic guitar to another - despite some commonality between models.  
A lot depends on what you are used to hearing.  For me that is a Martin 
dreadnaught D40-BLE.  I don't think I can tell a Brazillian rosewood 
instrument from an Indian rosewood instrument, but I like mine.  I've read
that the pearl inlay DETRACTS from the sound, but I like mine.  I think a 
new set of strings makes over an old set makes as big a difference as there 
is between some models - maybe more.  

I think there are fundamentally four factors that I consider: 1) how does it
play in MY hands, 2) how does it sound to MY ears, 3) how does it look to MY
eyes, and 4) how much does it cost.  Some people are far more concerned about
how a guitar looks than how it sounds or plays (and this is not limited to
collectors).  Some people are ONLY concerned about how a guitar plays and 
sounds (these tend not to be the beginners).  Most people have at least some
concern about cost and resale value.  For me, it has to feel RIGHT in MY hands. 
I don't care what anybody says about how it is set up or their opinion about 
the shape of the neck, it has to feel REALLY GOOD to me.  Then there is the
sound.  If it sounds REALLY GOOD, only then does the way it looks and how much
it costs become considerations.  It is possible for two people to have very 
different opinions and both be right - especially with guitars.

Jim

    A couple of notes...
    
    As far as Tony Rice and Tone poems goes,  he does play a variety of
    guitars, but dreadnaughts are the most common type.  The one thing he
    doesn't play is a plastic Macafferi (although there is a cut with 
    Macafferi designed Selmer which is most certainly made of wood and 
    not a cheap guitar).  The only inexpensive guitar is a Regal or similar
    depression-era guitar, but the previous noter's point holds... he makes
    that guitar sound mighty good, too.
    
    One thing to note on newer Martins-- the current D28 does not have 
    scalloped bracing, although the HD28 does.  Scalloped bracing makes
    the guitar more responsive to a light touch (pre-war D28 guitars have 
    scalloped bracing).  The non-scalloped bracing makes the guitar a
    little "tighter."  In my opinion, a newer D28 needs to be played real
    hard to sound good.
    
    I have three Martins, an HD-28, an OM-28, and a D-16H.  The OM-28 has
    the best balance.  I'm primarily a fingerstyle player-- the OM sound
    and wider string spacing work well for me.   You CAN play fingerstyle
    on a dreadnaught though.  When I play my HD-28, though, I have to be
    careful to use a light touch on the bass strings to compensate for
    the guitar's boominess.  It works great for some fingerstyle things
    though-- particularly things in dropped-D tuning (that low D sound
    awsome on that guitar).  The D-16H is a mahogany dreadnaught with
    scalloped bracing.  I've always had an affinity for mahogany
    instruments.  The sound is balanced with less noticeable overtones.
    I find the D16H works well for leads, fingerstyle blues, and
    accompanying certain voices.   As someone mentioned earlier, mahogany
    guitars seem to record well (that is, it's easier to get a good sound
    to tape).

    I own an HD28 and as many have said before is does have a full deep
    base.  I don't consider this a negative at all,,, as I tend to use
    technique to balance the base when I don't want it to overpower the
    mids and highs.  To me it better to have too much and hit the base
    string with less attack/force.    I also must say that I played a lot
    of Martins (15 to 20) before choosing the HD28 and each has a definite
    personality (even between the same models!).  I was up at fiddlers
    choice this weekend and I fell in love with a new model d28 with
    enlanged sound hole and modified bracing,,,, all I can than is woo!
    This is the only Martin that I have played in the pase 7 years that I
    would consider replacing the HD28 with.
    
    Bruce
    
    

     I haven'y heard the term "scalloped bracing" before. Could someone
    explain it to me? That "easier to play/less finger pressure" has
    sparkedmy curiosity. Haven't found an acoustic I've liked yet. May be 
    this feature is what i've needed.
    
    -kev_

    Scalloped bracing is when the cross bracing for the guitar top is
    actually trimmed thinner which allows the top sound board to vibrate
    better.  Because the bracing is lighter, they require that no heavier
    than medium gauge strings be used.  My ear almost always like the 
    sound of a guitar with scalloped brace.
    
    Bruce

    Scalloped bracing refers to how the top is braced.  Wood is removed
    from the bracing ("scalloped") to yield a lighter, more responsive
    brace.  
    
    I may have misled you with my "more responsive to of a light touch"
    comment.  I wasn't talking about a light touch with the left hand-- 
    rather a light touch with the *right* hand.  A scalloped braced guitar 
    tends to sound better played quietly than a non-scalloped instrument.
    
    Have you tried Taylor guitars?  They tend to have necks that appeal to
    people that are primarily electric players.
    
    Jim

    I'm just curious about those of you that play finger style guitar if
    you use any kind of fingerpick whether metal or plastic? I know at one
    point I tried to use these as I was learning some banjo for a student
    who wanted to take lessons from me. 
    I never could get use to the metal fingerpicks and heard later that Leo
    Keottke(sp) got tendonitus in his right hand and had to stop using
    metal picks? 
    I currently use a D35 and I do alot of fingerpicking. I do find I have
    to be careful when recording with bass notes.
    
    Rick
    

    No finger picks here-- just flesh and nail.  I've tried fingerpicks. 
    The added volume is nice, but they never felt secure.  Tone wise, I
    prefer bare fingers anyway. 
    
    Jim

    Fingerpicks, used precisely, can add volume and brightness to the
    sound (especially if you don't have titanium fingernails). But they
    take quite a bit of practice to use cleanly (other wise you add
    distracting scraping sounds as the edge of the pick drags along the
    string windings), and can sound _too_ bright for some things. (And
    there's that unmistakeable feeling of "I blew it" when you actually
    hook the clamp part of the pick on a string and pop the pick off
    your finger and into the sound hole in the middle of a number --
    yes, it can happen. Tain't easy, but possible.)
    
    I used picks a long time ago, but generally use raw fingers these
    days when fingerpicking. For me, this is largely because I mostly
    flatpick, so I don't get enough fingerpicking practice to keep the
    accuracy up. (And the tone of the guitar goes down as the body fills
    up with fingerpicks...)

    I've been using fingerpicks for nearly thirty years (when I put it that
    way, I wonder why I don't play better).  I use plastic.  A thumbpick
    that's stout enough to feel secure on my thumb is usually too thick for
    the "fingernail" sound that I want, so I file it down with an emery
    board until it has the right tone.  If you go out to buy fingerpicks,
    the way to avoid the "distracting sounds as the edge of the pick drags
    along the string windings" is to buy picks that are both curved and
    crowned -- i.e., they follow the contours of your fingers in both
    directions, over the end lengthwise and around the pad laterally.  The
    trick is to find picks like this.  Pick Boy used to make them, but they
    don't any more so far as I can tell.  If anybody out there knows where
    to find them, I'd appreciate the pointer.
    
    And as one who has more than once ended up with a fingerpick in the
    guitar box, like .293, the best way I've found to avoid that is to wear 
    them a little too tight for comfort and every once in a while play a few 
    songs with a flat pick so the ends of your fingers don't turn black and 
    fall off from lack of circulation.
    
    One thing I've never been able to master is the use of a pick on my
    ring finger, so when I play one of the few "jazz" tunes I know, I tend
    to play with bare fingers.

    OTOH, Leo Kottke once claimed that fingerpicks almost destroyed his
    playing by causing him all sorts of medical problems.
    
    Danny W.

I've tried them, infact, spent a whole summer, (well, sure
not a long time when compared to thirty years) but
I couldn't get used to them, I tried everything..

Biggest problem I had was the size of the thumb pick.

Went back to fingers, I'm used to it.. for me it works.

>    And as one who has more than once ended up with a fingerpick in the
>    guitar box, like .293, the best way I've found to avoid that is to wear 
>    them a little too tight for comfort and every once in a while play a few 
>    songs with a flat pick so the ends of your fingers don't turn black and 
>    fall off from lack of circulation.
    
    Yeah, the one thing worse than having your guitar fill up with
    fingerpicks is having it fill up with fingertips.

    I played with fingernails for years - kept them as good as I
    could, and used a thumbnail as well.  I was always worried about
    banging the fingernails into a doorknob or a wrench slipping or
    catching a nail on *anything* that would break it; that would
    screw up my playing for weeks.

    About 7 years ago, I went to a thumbpick.  GOOD move.  I got much
    new power and accuracy out of it.

    Then in 1994, I was supposed to play one night, and broke a
    fingernail.  Someone had suggested going to a ladies' nail place,
    but up to that point, I just couldn't do it.  Now, I orbited this
    place for about 10 minutes before I went in.  She put some acrylic
    stuff on which makes the nail about three times as thick as a
    single nail.

    I went home and couldn't BELIEVE how much harder I could play.  I
    mean, I could DIG IN if I wanted to.  So much more dynamic
    contrast, I couldn't believe it.  The next day I went back and got
    the other two nails done as well, and I've never used regular
    fingernails since.

    It provides the power of fingerpicks and the touch sensitivity of
    regular fingers.  Unlike fingerpicks, I don't have to put them on
    or pull them off, or search for them in my pockets.  Plus, I NEVER
    worry about breaking one off.

    If they do it right, the nails look so much like regular nails
    that nobody can tell.  After about two weeks, though, they get a
    little shine to them and grow out and I need to go back again. 
    Costs 5 or 6 bucks a visit.

    Hell, if bike racers can shave their legs...

    Charlie

    I'd Call ya A"La_De_Da"....But I'm Afriad That You'd Scratch my
    Eyes_Out!!   :_)    Just Kiddin...If it WOrks Fer You and Improves yer
    Playin....So Be It.
    
    
      Crazy_Now_WHat_Color_Nail_Polish_Do_You_Use_Al?    :_)))))))

    
    
    There used to be a product called "tough nails" that was popular
    with the classical guitar crowd.  It was supposed to make the
    nails real hard and prevent breaking.
    
    I don't know if it's still available.
    
    Kevin

    Jim, thanks for the tip on Taylor acoustic guitars... now, I wonder if
    there's a topic on them in here somewhere....
    
    -kev_

    I pulled this off one of the VG magazine bulletin boards (without
    permission).  The author posts there a lot and appears to be a reliable
    source.  This is the first mention I've heard of differences in the
    bracing between D-35s and the D-28s.

"The D-35 model came about in the mid 60's when Martin was running low
on the 8" wide Brazilian rosewood large enough to make D-28 backs. It
was the middle of the folk boom, production was at the highest levels
ever, and about all the orders were for the dreadnaught size bodies.
Martin had a large number of 6" wide back sets for small guitars, so
decided to use 3 back sets to make 2 guitars, and instead of making
the new model less expensive, they added a little more binding on the
sides, bound the fingerboard, used 1/8" lower and 1/16" thinner braces
to loosten up the top more (more volume & open sound) and charged a
little more for it. The bluegrass guys don't seem to like them as well
as the D-28, I think because they tend to be less boomy in the bass and
a little better balanced, but I like them personally, and feel they are
one of Martin's best balanced guitars"

Well I've always wondered about the balance of strings,on a smaller bodied 
instrument so I called a dealer to look for a Martin OM28 to try. He happened 
to have a used one in stock built in 1991. I took off and drove to the store 
to check it out.

When I got there the guitar was ready to be played with some fairly new strings
and setup nicely. Being a used instrument I expected it to have some battle
scars. But essentially I was hard pressed to find any scratches.dings or even
imperfections. The top being spruce had a nice grain to it,and the rosewood
sides and back was incredible. More or less a very clean,new instrument.

The size of the OM 28 felt small compared to what I usually play in an acoustic
both flat top and archtop guitars but this was no major item that couldn't be 
overcome. Matter of fact when I rested the crook of my elbow of my right arm 
on the larger bout my fingers were positioned right over the sound hole. 
Where as with a D style instrument I sometimes forget and have to readjust. 
After awhile I felt quite comfortable playing the guitar. Sometimes I have 
found the tension of the strings of a Martin or the gauge to be to heavy for 
my left hand. 

The fingerboard width was also an adjustment to my habits but I liked the 
wider fingerboard and can see the advantages.

The tone,volume balance acoustical performance was very even on each string.
I have to admit my ear for what a majority of people use this instrument for 
is not very well tuned. I have played some smaller/older parlor acoustics like 
Washburns etc which just ring with volume and tone. 
I like to have as much dynamic range as possible on an instrument. I couldn't 
find this with the OM28. It had a very even response on every string,but I 
could not "feel" the instrument the way I could with my D35.and I really 
didn't hear the projection of sound or tone I associate with rosewood Martins.

A D35 may not be a good frame of reference,and this may explain my reaction. 

Plus the age(15years)difference between the two instruments may explain the 
volume and tone differences. My D35 has been played alot and is on it's
third set of frets.

Without any question the OM28's quality of materials and workmanship were 
simply incredible and maybe in another 10 years of playing it would sound 
as "vibrant and alive" as my D35. For the time being I'll play what I have.

Don't misunderstand me I liked the instrument... but I would be more inclined
to look at more Martins.

Rick

    I have a '94 OM28.  It's taken a couple of years to really "open up."
    It sounded good when I got it, but it sounds great now.  Given
    the mint condition of the '91 mentioned, maybe it has never really been
    played.  I also have an HD28 that is awesome.  Which one do I think
    sounds better?  Which ever one I'm playing ;^)  (OK, so I'm
    fickle...)
    
    If you are used to the sound of a rosewood dreadnaught, an OM is
    definitely an adjustment: even response, a less dramatic shift in
    tone coloring between the treble and bass strings, better individual
    string definition, more pronounced treble, etc.  The fact that you've 
    enjoyed playing parlor-sized guitars and archtops indicates that you 
    don't have an dreadnaught bias, though.  I don't know, maybe the OM you
    tried was a lemon (the worst sounding Martin D I ever played was a
    gorgeous D45, so you never know).  The archtop background is
    intriguing...  I've always thought a rosewood OM sort of sounded like
    an acoustic archtop (maybe not a lot, but there is something about
    the tone that seems somewhat reminiscent).  Actually, that was the 
    OM's original target market: after decades of making guitars for
    fingerstyle players, Martin designs one for plectrum players, only to
    have guitarists 50 years later decide it is the quintessential
    fingerpicker's instrument.
    
    If you like 'em small, keep your eyes open for an old O-21 or OO-21.
    The smaller sizes don't have nearly the demand that the OOO, D, and OM
    sizes have, so they are relatively inexpensive.  I played an mid 20's
    O-21 (Brazilian rosewood!) a while back that was astounding, and the
    asking price was (only) $2,300.
    
    You may also want to try a OOO-28.  The shorter scale length gives
    it (to my ears) a little warmer tone.
    
    Jim

    I heard recently that Martin will be making a serious entry into the
    classical market with a licensed copy of Thomas Humphrey's millenium
    design.   Price is supposed to be about $4K (don't know if that is list
    or street, probably list).
    
    Jim

great, just what we needed, another $4,000 guitar..

I persoanlly think we nmeed more of the 200 dollar
ones myself.

>great, just what we needed, another $4,000 guitar..
>
>I persoanlly think we nmeed more of the 200 dollar
>ones myself.
    
    Running short of kindling?

    I got rid of all of my $200 guitars.
    
    Given that a real Millenium runs $8K or more, and there is a long
    waiting list, $4k (less 40%) could be considered a bargain... 

    Martin has published its 1997 price list on the web.  The
    Martin/Humphrey classical lists for $3,750.   
    
    Other changes to the product lines include:
    
    	o additions to the low-end line: DR (laminated rosewood version of
    	  DM), DCM (DM with cutaway), DM-12, OOOM)
    	o The M-line has been relabled OOOO.  The M-36 has been dropped
          in favor of a OOOO-28H
    	o Jumbo, OOOO, OOOC, and acoustic bass guitar variants of the D1
          (J-1, OOOO-1, OOOC-1, OOOC-1E, B1)
    	o D-15 with mahogany top
        o Rework of the whole style 16 line
    	o A D-40 (dreadnaught matching the J40)
    	o D-45VR for the vintage series
    	o OOO-28EC (Eric Clapton) as regular production guitar
    	o The OM-28 hs been dropped as a production model (sniff)-- the
    	  OM-21 and OM-28VR, and OOO-28 remain, though.
        o Big price cuts on the D-2R and D-3R-- about $500 (probably
    	  to make sure they are positioned below the plainer but solid
    	  back/sides special 16 series instruments).  The D-2R went from
    	  $1850 to $1349.  Other than that, I didn't notice any big
    	  changes in price (I'm sure some went up).
    
    
    The '97 limited editions include a Paul Simon OM-42 for $8K, a 
    Kingstin Trio D-28KT ($4500), a OO-16DB commemorating women in 
    music ($2100), a Martin/Stauffer OO-40 ($7900) and OO-45 ($20,000),
    and for those with truly deep pockets...
    
    	Jimmie Rogers OOO-45JR		$25,000      (!!!)
    
    
    Sure hope at that price its Brazilian rosewood.  That's $5,500 higher
    than last years D-45 CFM Sr. commemorative special addition in
    brazilian!
    

    
    Elliot Fisk records and performs exclusively with the T. Humphrey
    'millenium' model.
    
    

    I was aware that Fisk performs with a millenium, but I read somewhere
    (maybe the most recent AG) that at home he was more likely to play his
    Fleta.  Given that, it seems strange that he wouldn't at least
    occasionally use the Fleta for recording.  
    
    In addition to Fisk, other prominent Humphrey Millenium players include
    Sharon Isbin, the Assad brothers, Ricardo Cobo (sp?), and one of the
    members of the LA guitar quartet (a special 7 string millenium with a 
    low B).  I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I can think of
    off the top of my head.
    
    Sergio Assad's old Millenium is up for sale (he replaced it
    with one that better matched the tone of his brother's).
    
    Jim

    
    And Badi Assad as well.

    re: .310 and .311
    
    I double checked the AG article.  Fisk used the Fleta for the majority
    of his recent Segovia tribute CD.   He does primarily perform with the
    millenium.
    
    Returning to Martin Guitars...
    
    The CEO-1 and CEO-2 guitars sound like fancy versions of the special 16
    series (1-series style construction and bracing, solid woods, but with
    fancier appointments).
    
    The Paul Simon OM-42 has a narrower nut (actually, standard D nut
    width), but widens to the full normal OM spacing at the bridge.
    
    Jim