Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    If you got the game without the original instructions you are probably
    the victim of a software pirate.  If you can't get instructions from
    the person you bought the disk from I suggest you not do business with
    him in the future.  I doubt the author of the game is getting any
    of the "disacounted" price you paid.
        John Sauter

    re -.1
    
    John,
    
    this is not piracy, it is standard practice for old games.  Both Silica
    Systems and Diamond Computers in the UK have similar offers - bundles
    of games for a very low price, or bundled with purchase of a system.
    
    The games are in a 'uniform edition' package - like paperbacks from
    publishers.  There is a plastic disk box with an insert containing the
    instructions.  The instructions are a stripped down version of the
    original - it is the extra content in the original that I am missing.
    
    If you look at a game like Populous, it comes with a 20 or 30 page book
    which describes the game, its operation and strategy.  If Popolous ever
    comes out as a budget edition, can you imagine trying to play it with a
    single sheet replacing the original book?
    
    There is another example - Lemmings.  The full price version I bought
    has two disks, one of which is purely the introduction animation.  My
    next door neighbours bought an Amiga which had Lemmings bundled.  This
    version comes on a single disk, without the introductory sequence and
    without the 10 page book which gives useful hints.
    
    I do not believe either that I am the victim of piracy, or that these
    budget games deprive the writers of revenue that they would otherwise
    have got.  It can only increase their revenues; when the full-price
    revenue stream has dried up, selling off the rights for a fixed sum to
    a system bundler can only be considered income above and beyond what
    the product would bear in its full-price edition.
    
    Therefore I am still looking for hints from someone who has the earlier
    more complete version, or who is clever enough to be able to play the
    game with the limited instructions that I have.
    
    Martin

    re: .2
    
    In spite of your explanation (which I appreciate) I remain suspicious.
    Lemmings is still being offered by distributors and retail stores at 
    full price.  This "Uniform Edition" package sounds like it was constructed
    by someone with a bulk disk copier, a lot of plastic disk boxes, and 
    printed inserts.  I doubt that each "Uniform Edition" package contains 
    original disks, else the original instructions would be available.
    
    This practice increases the revenue of the original author only if some
    of the sales price flows back to said author.  Based on your description 
    I doubt that this happens.  Before I would be willing to purchase such
    a "Uniform Edition" for my own use I would ask the seller how much
    money reaches his source for each copy he sells.  If the answer is "0",
    he is a pirate.
        John Sauter

    > Lemmings is still being offered by distributors and retail stores at
        full price
    
    John,
    
    I think Martin was saying THAT BUNDLED lemmings only come with one
    disk. ie the lemming you get with the 500 plus packs in the UK. In the
    UK you do get cheap software that is not pirated, but as Martin says,
    has limited instructions.
    
    Perhaps this hasn't happenned in the USA yet.
    
    Greg

    This is getting to be quite a good discussion!  I hope it can continue
    into the V2 conference, as it raises lots of good questions totally
    unrelated to the base note.
    
    John, I would suggest that if an author gets no INCREMENTAL revenue,
    that the distributor is not necessarily a pirate.
    
    Consider that you personally have invented something of value - for
    example a computer game, a book, a film script.  You want to make
    money, and you want it published.
    
    Lets say you find a publisher who offers you two deals:
    
    1) Royalty.  The publisher will sell copies for �100, and you will get
    �1 for every copy sold.  (Like in the record industry). 
    
    2) Outright Purchase.  The publisher will pay you �1,000,000 and
    retains all revenue from sale of the product.
    
    Which deal would you go for?
    
    I suggest you would make your decision based on two criteria
    
    1) Your expectation of sales volume.  If the market for your product is
    millions of units, I would suggest you take deal (1).
    
    2) Your cashflow and the value of money to you now, as opposed to
    later.  To make it an artificial example, if you expected to sell 1000
    units a year, you would break even after 1000 years.  Even though deal
    (1) is worth more to you over an infinite period of time, I would 
    advise deal (2). (Let's not be greedy!)
    
    Let's now bring this example into the real world and consider both deals.
    
    You firstly go for the royalty option, and your product sells really
    well for a few years.  After a few years, your product is selling in
    the dozens as opposed to the thousands.  You may well then accept an
    outright purchase deal from the publisher.
    
    This outright deal may be good for both you and the publisher.  You get
    money up front, and the publisher can simplify his accounting and
    administration as he no longer has to pay you royalties.
    
    Who is the pirate?
    
    [I am enjoying this a lot!]
    
    Martin
    
    [ps - But I still can't play Onslaught]
    
    [pps - Thanks for joining in, Greg]

	So, products are marketed differently in different markets.

	Is it just that the U.S. software market hasn't yet seen, or 
isn't yet used to, the  "paperback editions"  phenomenon ?

	If so then the  "piracy"  assumption seems a little premature.

========================================================================

	If I were to get into pirating software I think I'd spend just
a little bit MORE effort and money on the packaging and documentation. 
I'd try to make an EXACT forgery of the whole product, then I could
sell it at a figure thats a lot closer to what the REAL product 
fetches - and most customers would never even know (-:

	Errrr, registration cards ?   Sure, I'd have look-alikes of
those printed up too, though they may not be pre-addressed to anywhere 
that exists.  Hmmmm, a  "hot-line"  number ?   I'd have to think about
that.   .....but I'm not even thinking about getting into piracy
anyway, so its moot.  (-: 

	R

    re: .5
    
    Certainly the kind of deal that you describe is possible, but then the
    packager of the product has presumably paid for the privilege, and his
    payment, directly or indirectly, makes it back to the author, as in
    your �1,000,000 pound example.  However, such deals are not usual,
    particularly with products like Lemmings that have been popular over
    a long time and were produced by a company, rather than an individual.
    Therefore, I would inquire into the legitimacy of an offer of a low-
    cost product.  It's similar to being suspicious of a watch that is
    being sold by a scruffy-looking man in an overcoat, rather than from
    a jewelry store.  The offer may be perfectly legitimate, but I'd check.
    
    Assuming that you didn't buy from a pirate, the fact that you paid less
    than the retail price for a package without instructions means that you
    didn't pay for the instructions.  It therefore doesn't seem right to
    try to get the instructions without paying the difference in price.
        John Sauter

    re: .6
    
    If I'm not mistaken, every sale of a paperback book causes a small
    amount of money to be returned to the author as a royalty.  At least,
    I saw a notice in a paperback book which stated that if the book had
    been sold with the cover removed it was stolen property, since the
    cover had been returned to the distributor as an indication that
    the book had not been sold, so the retailer had been reimbursed.
    
    The 'exact' forgery system that you describe would certainly fool people,
    particularly if the forgeries were sold through retail stores.
    The easiest way to get such forgeries into retail stores is by
    selling them to the distributors.  If course, you'd have to cut
    the distributors in for a good chunk of the profit, since they're
    taking a lot of the risk.
    
    Don't worry about registration cards, just copy them too.  The
    manufacturer will get more cards than he sold, but he has no way
    of knowing which are the bogus cards.
        John Sauter

re .5:
    
>    Assuming that you didn't buy from a pirate, the fact that you paid less
>    than the retail price for a package without instructions means that you
>    didn't pay for the instructions.  It therefore doesn't seem right to
>    try to get the instructions without paying the difference in price.
    
    Interesting point, John.  However I have two replies:
    
    1)	I did NOT make the decision to buy the game without the
    instructions.  I did not negotiate a discount based on the lack of
    useful instructions.
    
    2)  The UK has a marvellously simple piece of legislation, the Sale of
    Goods Act (1912? 1922?).  One of its guiding principles if 'fitness for
    purpose'.  Regardless of price, or ANY OTHER CONSIDERATION, goods you
    buy must be fit for the purpose for which you bought it. A piece of
    software without instructions is not fit for purpose; ie you cannot use
    it.
    
    There has been a lot of argumument over the (curiously British) trait
    of selling electrical goods (Hi-Fi, domestic electrical appliances)
    without a mains plug - is it fit for purpose or not?  The manufacturers
    claim that there is small print saying "Plug not included", so that
    consumers know what to expect.
    
    [Side note - we sell completely configured systems on one part number
    including processor, storage, licenses, software - but no mains plug. 
    We call it a country kit]
    
    Conclusion - I have been sold a software product that I cannot use. 
    Can anyone help?
    
    The next thing to discuss is whether I have forfeited any rights by
    buying a package that included unusable software, and not by buying the
    unusable software explicitly.  I would say that I have not forfeited
    any rights.  The advert said things like 'Top Games software - value
    �100 - provided FREE'.  Therefore the software has a value and I should
    expect it to perform to that value, regardless of what I paid.
    
    In addition, if a customer buys one of our bundled products (like
    VAXset) and finds that a part doesn't work (like LSE? - only an
    example), he would not accept the argument that LSE is only a part
    bundled in, and that he purchased the set of products cheaper than the
    sum of the parts, therefore couldn't expect all the parts to work.
    
    Over and out!
    
    Martin
                                                                      

    OK,
    
    To put a stop to the arguments ring up Domark and tell 'em your story.
    I'm sure they will send you some instructions, or else you can report
    the store to FAST and get a reward, and buy the full price game.
        
    QED
    
    Greg

    re: .10
    
    A very good solution!  Please tell us how Domark responds to your
    request.
        John Sauter