Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I would say that they don't compare at all.
    
    Seeing as how the NeXT has 8 or 9 (depending on model) DMA controllers,
    a 68040 at ~15 MIPS.
    
    One thing to think of is, NeXT's operating system runs display
    PostScript.  In other words, the graphics, text etc. is all PostScript
    on the screen, in real time.  I've yet to see that on a 3000.
    
    Mike (who would have a NeXT Dimension next to his A500 if he had the
    money)

    Of course the Next would be the faster system if compared to a stock
    Amiga. compare it again after the 040 cards are available(with specs
    on preformance) and much faster would not be the case. GVP is rateing
    their card at 22mips. Then let us not forget that software on the next
    will be running under Unix. This sounds great until you start pricing
    the stuff. Display postscript is nice, but I am not sure how it is 
    implemented with all application software. I think of the Amiga as a
    great system at home, and often miss it when I am forced to do things
    here at work, like DTP. I don't see a NeXT doing the video stuff etc
    that I enjoy so much. 
    							bill

    
    Well, the NeXT is actually quite amazing at video work.  The last
    NeXTWorld had a big article on the latest and greatest available for
    the NeXT, including the NeXTdimension.  Granted, as yet they do not
    have the real time compression techniques built into the board, they
    will be released shortly.
    
    The NeXT is in, as you said, quite a different class than the Amiga
    which starts from the fact that it is a Unix machine.  Even so, a NeXT
    will beat hands down a 3000UX (I don't know about with an 040 board)
    and its video capabilities are quite wholesome.  The NeXTdimension is a
    32 bit board, with 24 bits for RGB color and another 8 for the alpha
    channel (which Amigas don't use; the Toaster has an alpha channel I
    think though).  When the upgrade comes out, the NeXT dimension will be
    able to grab in real time, 32 bit 60 fps video from a variety of
    sources (composite, Y/C, and RGB).
    
    Of course the NeXTdimension system would run around $30,000, so I'm
    definately NOT putting the Amiga down.  It's simply a different horse.
    
    Mike

Re: .0

A year ago (I believe it was the December issue), Byte did a quick once
over on the Amiga 3000UX.  The primary comparison was the NeXT, which
at the time was '30 based.

Byte had very nice things to say about the Amiga 3000UX with the U Lowell
graphics board.  As a UNIX box, they thought that the 3000UX was as nice
or nicer than the NeXT, and a whole lot cheaper.

Of course, the exciting thing about the NeXT is the non-UNIX part of
the software: the object oriented application interface and application
builder.  The 3000UX doesn't have anything like that.  And, as the
other replies have stated, NeXT has moved on and beefed up their
hardware since that comparison.

My favorite characterization of the NeXT comes from Dave Haynie:

	NeXT:
		The hardware makes it a PC
		The software makes it a workstation
		The number sold makes it a mainframe

Hi,

What does the Amiga 3000UX(?) cost?

Thanks in advance,

Dave

    At Paragon, it's around $5500 for the UXD and $7500 or so for the UXG. 
    Note this is from memory, it could be $5500 for the UXB and $7500 for
    the UXD, but I believe the former is true.
    
    UXB -> 105 LPS, 5M
    UXD -> 210 S, 9M
    UXG -> UXD w/ Lowell adapter
    
    Mike

Don't know about the "suggested retail price", but the Memory Location 
is selling them for:

A3000UX/B	$4000	5M/105M
A3000UX/D	$5200	9M/210M
A3000UX/G	$5700	9M/210M/hi-res graphics board

I haven't seen any prices for for the non-bundled UX software, but
judging from these prices, it's probably in the $700 range.  I think
the A3000 25/100 was $3300, but didn't write that one down.

Certainly the Amiga and the NeXT are apples-and-oranges, but if someone
wanted a solid U*x box, along with Amiga-like functionality, an Amiga/UX
system is a nice package.  $1200 for 4M and 100M of disk is a bit
outrageous, though. 

Steve

    
    Wait a minute.  By "non-bundled UX software," you don't mean they're
    selling Unix for regular 3000 owners, do you?
    
    According to all the sales reps and account reps I talked to not more
    than a month ago when I worked at Paragon, there was no way that they'd
    even consider doing that.  By that I mean Commodore reps, of course.
    
    That would involve a lot of license agreement hassles and a lot of
    people who bought UX's for more money than the 3000+Unix system VERY
    ANGRY.  As a matter of fact, I don't think Commodore would even admit
    that the hardware is the same (I guess I can say that now that I don't
    work for Paragon anymore).
    
    So, what did you mean by "non-bundled UX software?"  
    
    (Am I just pontificating without reasonable cause?)
    
    Mike

Re .8:

>    (Am I just pontificating without reasonable cause?)

Geez, I hope so! As the owner of a 2000, I'd like to think that I could choose
to run Unix on my machine or upgrade to a 3000 at *my* discretion, not shut out
from the former option by a marketing dictum...

Bob

Article 911 of comp.unix.amiga
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!sdd.hp.com!mips!pacbell.com!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!buck
From: [email protected] (Richard Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.amiga
Subject: Standalone UNIX and 1.1 upgrades
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 9 May 91 22:51:12 GMT
Organization: Commodore-Amiga Unix Development
Lines: 93


Oft-asked questions include:

	Can I buy Amiga UNIX separately to put on my A3000?
	Does Amiga UNIX work on a 2000/2500?
	How can I upgrade from/to version 1.1?
	How much do the various 3000UX models cost?
	Can I buy a multi-user license?


I'm not in marketing, so this is not "official", but it is accurate.


1.	When can I buy standalone Amiga UNIX to put on my A3000?

Soon.

The standalone UNIX package exists; no extra pieces are required, and we
have many shrink-wrapped packages sitting in our offices right now.  The 
reason you haven't seen it at dealers is that we've had trouble designing a
cardboard box and setting a price.  It will be exactly the same as the 1.1
shipped on 3000UXes, including tape, disks, and documentation.  You should
have at least 4 MB RAM and we recommend a 200 MB disk (although it runs
fine in 100 MB).   You can use this package to reinstall over your existing
hard disk, if it's big enough, or install on a separate disk.  It will be
available soon, certainly by the end of this month.  With the release of
2.0, the same product will be available for 3000s and 2000s.


2.	Does Amiga UNIX work on a 2000/2500?

Yes and no.

A well-hidden secret is that it does work, but we don't like to admit that.
We're not supporting the 2000/2500 series until a hardware upgrade package
is available and Amiga UNIX 2.0 comes out.  The basic upgrade (other than
having enough memory and disk space) is replacing the 2630 and Kickstart
ROMs, but more details will follow when we release the kit this summer.  We
don't like it in its current configuration because it doesn't match the
way AmigaDOS and Amiga UNIX live together (and boot) on the 3000 series.  
While it works and has worked all along, we want to wait until the 2000
series UNIX can be brought into sync with the 3000 series UNIX.  This
upgrade kit and path will be available when 2.0 is released.

For those who care, there are no plans to put Amiga UNIX on an A500.


3.	How can I upgrade from/to version 1.1?

Easily.

If you bought a legitimate copy of any previous Amiga UNIX version, you can
upgrade to version 1.1 by sending $50 to Dawn Phelps, Amiga UNIX Marketing 
Coordinator, 1200 Wilson Drive, West Chester, PA, 19380.  You'll need a
proof of purchase of some sort, since we didn't include a registration card
in many of the early builds.  The $50 is to cover the cost of the tape and
new manuals.  Future upgrades (to 2.0 and beyond) will be handled in the
same manner.  For the time being, upgrades are being shipped with a copy
of the new System V Release 4 Wall Chart.


4.	How much do the various 3000UX models cost?

More than a breadbox, less than a boat.

This information has been published in various places, and I think my life 
will be easier if I don't add anything more at this point.


5.	When can I buy a multi-user license?

Soon.

It's similar to the standalone UNIX issue.  The product exists, and existed
when we started shipping Amiga UNIX 1.1 on 3000UXes, but we haven't put it
in a cardboard box and set a final price.  We plan to do this right away.

Since UNIX System Laboratories still thinks of UNIX as a big system, the
royalty fee reflects their assumption that many users will use one system.
Our system is priced as a workstation; if we made the multi-user license
available to everyone, it would raise the cost of the machine.  Many - most -
of our customers want to use the 3000UX for multiple login sessions on the 
various virtual screens and network port, but all under the same user 
name (or root).  We therefore provide a cheaper license.  If you want 
an unlimited license, USL assumes you are using the system as a large file 
or e-mail server, and therefore wants you to pay a higher licensing fee.



--
		"Klaatu barada nicto"

		Richard Buck, (215) 344-3019, [email protected]  (4/91)

Article 2088 of comp.unix.amiga
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!bloom-beacon!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rutgers!ub.d.umn.edu!rhealey
From: [email protected] (Rob Healey)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.amiga
Subject: 2.02 UNIX summary
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 26 Sep 91 18:56:50 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth. Information Services.
Lines: 67


	For the benifit of the curious and since ADOS beta people
	have been spilling the beans for months here is a brief summary of
	what one can expect from 2.02:

	1) The serial port works great! Printer port too. B^).
	2) ufs is stable for all filesystem needs.
	3) X11R4 runs so fast in B&W the case glows. B^)
	4) All the MIT clients are available plus a virtual
	   window manager, tvtwm, that makes 700x480 B&W X
	   very usable. Also xtetris, xpostit and MOST importantly
	   xroach are on the stock installation B^).
	5) gcc 1.40 and gdb 3.5 are there and work.
	6) g++ is there but is labeled as a beta. Seems to work for
	   my purposes tho.
	7) Elm, emacs and Bnews are current PD patchlevels.
	8) Bison and gtar have been added.
	9) The system is FAST, even faster than beta 5 although that
	   might be related to using ufs as the main file system.
      10) As Keith pointed out in an earlier posting, the unlimited
	   user login does exist for 2.02 although sales/marketing
	   have the final call on that subject.
       11) SLIP is included and a man page for slattach exists. Seems
	   to work well although dialout SLIP isn't supported yet.
       12) The floppy driver reads, write and formats IBM 720K disk
	   formats. Due to Intel/Motorola byte sex differences file
	   systems won't work but cpio and tar do.
      13) The kernel .o's and Amiga driver sources are supplied so
	   custom static and relocatable kernels are easy to make
	   and test. As a side note, Amiga UNIX boot process allows
	   for relocatable kernels, one's that seek out usable memory
	   on boot and load/relocate themselves additionally the
	   boot code knows how to uncompress, a 'la LZW compress(1)
	   command, so you can fit larger kernels on a floppy. You
	   can have compressed relocatable kernels too. Eat your
	   heart out whimpy Intel!
       14) Open Look is a new version although I don't use it because
	   I'm a minimalist when it comes to screen space.
       15) The screen system has been redone such that you have a
	   library that you can use and ALT-ESC gives you a menu
	   of the current screen groups and their assignments to
	   ALT-F? keys. In the new screen system X and a regular
	   login shell can share the same virtual screen, you use
	   ALT-ESC to select which screen group you want to bring
	   to the front of the virtual screen.
       16) Using the new /etc/screendefs file you can customize the
	   size, color, fonts and propertys of all the screens. Using
	   snftoauf tool you can convert X font files to Amiga UNIX font format
	   and use them for your screens!
       17) All tty systems are run from ttymon now so getty is no longer
	   needed. The network, serial, screen and xdm logins can now
	   be manipulated and maintained via sysadm.
       18) The screen library allows access to all standard Amiga video
	   modes, the keyboard and the mouse.
       19) The audio device allows for sound and is used by writing
	   to /dev/audio.
      20) The lp subsystem has been updated for a mindnumming amount
	   of flexibility in printer control, forms and remote printing.

	Well 20 is a nice round number and should be enough to get
	me in trouble with somebody. B^). Anyways, 2.02 is worth
	the wait and is quite solid and delivers MORE than what was
	promised. Oh ya, 2000's with 2630's and 2091's ARE supported,
	at least their names are plastered all over the preliminary
	release notes and kernel files.

		-Rob

re    <<< Note 5258.11 by AICAD::CUDMORE "Research causes cancer in rats ..." >>>

	Thanks,  from this and .10 I gather its all  RSN  ??   (-:

	May, Sept, Dec,,,  complete this series to find out WHEN 
	My guess is ~Easter, though I'm not sure which year.

	R

    Well, blow me down, ugh ugh ugh ugh!
    
    And I thought we had real good reps who wouldn't lie or give us
    marketing crap!
    
    So how will this make UX owners feel?  And can I get it on my 500?
    
    ;-)   hahahahahahahahaha!
    
    Mike

UX Owners probably won't feel badly about it. Unix for IBM PCs runs $1000+
for a complete system. If they hang that price on it, it will cost slightly
*more* to buy an A3000 and Unix than to buy an A3000UX.

	<mike

	I broke the prices down (but at PowerUp prices) in note 4700.30.
	I think you'll still be able to get a better deal by avoiding the
	UX machines and just buying the equivalent hw/sw upgrade for a stock
	3000.  Like many systems vendors I think you're paying a serious
	premium by not going 3'rd party for the extra disk and memory ...

	But then again, who knows if Amiga Unix V2.0 will ever be released
	(i.e. due to their cutbacks in their Unix group).

	Sean

re    <<< Note 5258.15 by AICAD::CUDMORE "Research causes cancer in rats ..." >>>
>                -< I think stock 3000's are a better deal ... >-

	I agree.   I think they will start to sell unbundled Unix as 
soon as they see a sufficient drop off in bundled 3000UX sales,  i.e. 
if/when Unix isn't selling 3000s for them they'll try selling it 
separately    ...and of course they can admit to themselves that
they're not losing any of the leveraged 3000 sales at that point (-:
So, thats when the A2000 owners REALLY start to buy accelerator 
boards, memory, disks  and then  ...the economy turns around as a
direct result.   Price ?   Whatever the market will will.

	R

Sean, you've been shopping for a year, when are you going to BUY something?

Meanwhile, back to the topic at hand,
here's my slightly tongue in cheek (but with many grains of truth)
synopsis of when to buy NeXT versus A3000UX.

If you want to play/write games, buy an Amiga 500/2000.
If you want to write business applications, especially with GUI, buy a NeXT.
If you want to SELL business applications, buy a PC.

If you want to play with Unix, play with Amigas, and *maybe* write some
System V compliant business applications, buy an A3000UX.

So much for the nutshell, probably worthless.

In general, the A3000UX is a nice standards compliant and inexpensive
Unix box, and you still have your DOS options open.  However, it isn't
as "usable" out of the box as NeXT is.

The NeXT, while it uses many standards, is playing longshots all around.
Owning a NeXT and an old A1000, all I can say is that I like playing games
on my A1000, it didn't work out for the type of development I wanted to do,
so I bought a NeXT, and I love it too.  They're both good machines.
What you buy depends on what you want to do.

NeXT's Mach based implementation might not be so far off in the standards
as OSF catches on in the Unix community (OSF is based on Mach).
And NeXTStep may have some surprises yet if the much rumored PC compatible
version of NeXTStep materializes this spring (might even be announced
at January NeXTExpo!).

Of course, then you're faced with another decision, might want to buy
NeXTStep on a PC.


With regards to cost, the NeXT may seem  more expensive at first glance,
but it comes out of the box ready to work gangbusters for development,
and with a much nicer monitor and CPU.  So in calculating A3000UX costs,
don't forget to factor compiler and other development tool costs.  

Dave,

who doesn't read this conference much any more, so call me at DTN 264-6050
if you have questions.