Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    
          <<< FRSOLD::IS$NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]AMIGA_HARDWARE.NOTE;1 >>>
                    -< comp.sys.amiga.hardware - postings >-
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Note 5530.0              Non-Amiga based Toasters......                3 replies
FRSOLD::ZIMMERMANN "[email protected] (Mi" 43 lines  17-OCT-1991 03:28
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Article: 14834
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!datum.nyo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!att!mcdchg!laidbak!amiganet.chi.il.us!grimkirk
From: [email protected] (Mike Schneider)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Non-Amiga based Toasters......
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 15 Oct 91 08:19:45 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems
Lines: 33
 
don't exist fellas. Unfortunately, some ultra-intelligent marketing guy at
Commodore (must be a temp!) got the idea that unless CBM sold Amigas to
Newtek, they'd just go Grey-market them from Montgomery Grant and do exactly
what they are doing anyway, covering the Amiga logo so those poor Mac and IBM
based video operations won't have to swallow any pride and buy the only
machine DESIGNED to do what they have been desperately attempting (at GREAT
expense) to do on those other platforms.
 
Although I am very disappointed in what I believe is a commercial sellout of
product which will eventually make its own way in the world. I understand that
CBM is just in the business of selling UNITS, as is NEWTEK. But Newtek could
openly admit that the only reason they were able to develop the Toaster is
because the Amiga is the only motherboard capable of supporting it at the root
level. CBM is really not to blame, Newtek is. Rather than providing the Amiga
community with a peripheral that will expand its capabilities and viability in
the professional community, Newtek is more interested in marketing ITS product
into every nook and cranny of video-dom, regardless of whether anyone knows it
is on an Amiga or not. So they cover the label with another, and coddle the
Mac and IBM community's ego, by not sticking the Amiga label in their face.
 
You see, Tim Jenison must have come to the conclusion that even if he pisses'
off the entire Amiga community to the point that they stop buying any of the
rest of Newtek's product line, that the money made in the OTHER markets by
selling VIDEO TOASTER MACHINES will compensate them handsomely. I hope that I
am wrong. Anyone out there in Netland got an in at Newtek? Ask Tim about this.
I'd love to hear from him, just to get it from the horse's (sic?!) mouth.....
 
aka Lord Grimkirk       aka Cmdr Mike Schneider         Mike Schneider
Society at Large            USS Magellan NCC-1773       UFP Conventions, Inc.
Chicago, IL                                             "STARBASE NOVA"
Once a King, always     Remember: No matter where       TREK til you Drop!
a King, but once a                you go.........       The only Fan run
Knight is enough!                 There you are.        TREK Con in town!

Must be for the upcoming British market so that they can put the price
up over here even more

;^)

    I feel NewTek is doing the right thing. I love the Amiga, but I don't
    see that as a valid reason a business should not follow the route that
    is best for them. On the other side, every Toaster sells an Amiga, and
    as far as CBM is concerned that is goodness. This has a positive affect
    on number of units sold. We have to remember the market that the
    Toaster sells too is not the amiga Market, it is the video Market. As
    for price increase, that is to be expected. I don't think NewTek will
    be able to meet the production demand even at the new price. I don't
    like the way that the backorders are being handled though. It appears
    that the Toaster actually functions well when driven by another system.
    Of course the increases may mean trouble at Newtek. Having a product in
    demand is not enough to pay the bills, and support R&D. They may really
    need this cash to continue operation.
    								bill

    Re .3:
    
>   I feel NewTek is doing the right thing.  I love the Amiga, but I don't
>   see that as a valid reason a business should not follow the route that
>   is best for them.  On the other side, every Toaster sells an Amiga, and
>   as far as CBM is concerned that is goodness.  This has a positive affect
>   on number of units sold.  We have to remember the market that the
>   Toaster sells too is not the amiga Market, it is the video Market.  As
>   for price increase, that is to be expected.  I don't think NewTek will
>   be able to meet the production demand even at the new price.  I don't
>   like the way that the backorders are being handled though.  It appears
>   that the Toaster actually functions well when driven by another system.
>   Of course the increases may mean trouble at Newtek.  Having a product in
>   demand is not enough to pay the bills, and support R&D.  They may really
>   need this cash to continue operation.
    
    I don't know NewTek's financial situation, but I can understand that
    they may have discovered (in the Macintosh market, at least) that the
    Video Toaster is underpriced.  That would explain their (65% !?) abrupt
    price increase.  They ARE entitled to reap the fruits of their efforts.
    
    I *do* wish that NewTek had found a smoother way of implementing it,
    though.  Accepting all NEW orders at the higher price is well within
    the norms of American business.  Making the price increase retroactive
    to goods already on order but not yet shipped IS NOT!

    Bill,
    	I also feel that it was not a good thing to make the price increase
    cover those Toasters already ordered, but not shipped. However I think 
    that in the long run they will get away with it. If I were one of these
    people I would not be able to get it because of cash flow, but many
    will be able to overcome this without problems(commercial accounts). 
    I wonder about the demo tape. The official one I saw at system Eyes
    has them touting the less than $1600.00 price. This tends to indicate
    a sudden chane in policy. I do think it is tied to the Mac market, the
    only nice thought is Sculpt 4D in that market should bite the big one.
    I resent those that use their posistion in the Amiga Market to move to
    others, and then forsake us. NewTek may be on the line but the heart of
    the Toaster is the amiga, and ARexx. another plus is that it will show
    the developers that money can be made on an Amiga Based platform. Look 
    at the trend with programs like Imagine, ADPro ect. If you want
    professional performance be prepared to pay professional prices. It's
    a sad fact but true. I for one like the trend toward better software,
    but worry about the ability to obtain it.
    								bill

re                       <<< Note 5130.0 by KAHUNA::SUMNER >>>
>                          -< Toaster Price Increase >-
 
                                       was            now
        The Video Toaster board;     $1595.00      $2495.00
 
        The stand-alone Toaster;     $3995.00      $4495.00
 
        The upgrade to 2.0;      (around $100)      $400.00


	OK, its bad, but it may not be THAT bad.


	Go Amigo sez  $1995;  so in round numbers the list price has
gone up $900, but the street price has gone up $500, previously it was
only discounted by $100-$200. 

	Reg	{not rushing out to buy what I don't REALLY need just 
		to beat the price increase  - -  but checking anyway,
		just in case (-:, (-:  }

    re: .6
    
    Go Amigo may be selling off their stock, purchased at the lower price.
    If that's true you can expect Go Amigo's price to rise in the future.
        John Sauter

    
    I did some price checking also and found the VT to be selling for
    1999.99, so the price hike isn't as bad as the retail suggest.  Also,
    [.3] made a good point on that the VT is selling to the video market, 
    which is not necessarily the Amiga market.
    
    I was looking forward to Version 2 software for the VT, but if it's
    selling for $300 or greater it will have to do more than the demo
    tape I just got shows.  And, I'm sure it will.
    
    ~Ray 

re .3

	I don't think it is a good thing that New Tek is hiding the identity of
the Amiga. Here we have a clear case where the Amiga can do something important
that can't be done on a MAC or a PC. But they are hiding the fact so MAC and PC
users don't have to face up to the fact that there is a better platform for
what they are doing.

	On the other hand, there could be a business opertunity for other
ISVs to come out with software add-ons for "The Amiga Inside Your VT Video
Controller".

    Re .9:
    
>   I don't think it is a good thing that New Tek is hiding the identity of
>   the Amiga.  Here we have a clear case where the Amiga can do something
>   important that can't be done on a MAC or a PC.  But they are hiding the
>   fact so MAC and PC users don't have to face up to the fact that there
>   is a better platform for what they are doing.
    
    NewTek's branding of an A2000HD/VideoToaster system is perfectly legal. 
    We (Digital) do the same thing with the Tandy PC clones we sell.  Even
    at the higher price level (which might even have the odd side-effect of
    INCREASING Video Toaster sales by moving closer to the "expected" price
    for its functionality), the VideoToaster unit provides capabilities
    that simply aren't available (at ANY price) on PC and Mac systems.

	I didn't say it wasn't legal to hide the Amiga. It just seems to me
that if the MAC and PC users tried using the Amiga as a computer as well as
a video controller, they would discover some of its other good attributes,
and maybe some of them decide to switch brands. I think that would result in
even more Amigas being sold.

	It's a bizarre situation because a product is being sold which perfroms
a needed function for an attractive price. So, people doing video productions
will buy it for that reason. But there's more! It's also a general purpose 
computer! Shouldn't that be a selling feature instead of a liability?

    The Toaster is not being marketed as a computer for the same reason
    CDTV is not being marketed as a computer. NewTek sees it's market as
    the Video Market. Many people already own Mac's, and PC's , and have an
    investment in software that they use daily. In most cases the toaster
    will be intergrated into a production studio as a discrete component
    of the overall video production enviornment. Now they must use the
    toaster directly to run lightwave ect, but aside from that I don't
    see any wisdom in taking the toaster down to run software for other
    reasons. It is probably intergrated deeply, and far to valuable a
    resource to "Play" with. remember that as good as the Amiga is in
    the realm of graphics it lags behind in business, and even in DTP
    on other platforms. As a Toaster it gives the user the Graphic ability
    they desire, and complements the system they use daily. I don't think
    the high end Mac user will be enticed to dump his $$$$$ investment
    very easy. This is one reason lightwave and such cannot be run offline
    from the amiga. I do think an amiga would greatly add to the
    functionallity of a studio, but not the one in a Toaster. Besides I
    would not expect to meet a lot of people that are in the know to be
    unaware that "one of those" lurks under the hood. In the video world
    a Toaster is a bargain, and all that they need or want. remember the
    Toaster will do little to show off the amiga's prowness at multitasking
    as a standalone unit.
    								bill

	I agree in a big studio the Toaster is a black box and anything else
it could do is done on other equipment elsewhere. But it seems to me Toasters
will also be sold to cottage operations and hobbyists where its value as a
computer would be a big plus.

	It would be interesting to see how developers would fare if they
repackaged their products as:

	A word processor for Video Toaster
	A MIDI package for Video Toaster
	A box that turns your Video Toaster into a MAC
	A card that puts a PC coprocessor in the Video Toaster
	.
	.
	.
	etc

New from Psygnosis...

	"Blast the Mean Aliens", super parallax scrolling, 8-channels stereo
	music, unbeatable playability, available for AMIGA 500/1500/2000/2500
	/3000 and Video Toaster! I can see it now!	:-)
		  ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
								- JIM CAD*

The technical type will eventually realize its an Amiga and might be persuaded
to convert.  The Non technical type wont realize its an Amiga.  But then this 
type wont buy anything thats not a PC or a MAC simply because its not as well 
known.  It gives them warm and fuzzies that they are still in what they
parceive as the main stream.

We have done it for years.  How many of you with RZ23's knew it was a Conner?  
If you had bought the Conner you could have saved a few bucks.

Alan
My $0.02

>        The Video Toaster board;     $1595.00      $2495.00
> 
>        The stand-alone Toaster;     $3995.00      $4495.00

They should have done the following:

        The Video Toaster board;     $1595.00      $1995.00
 
        The stand-alone Toaster;     $3995.00      $4995.00

since in the MAC and IBM market they are unique while in the Amiga market they
have demonstrated the market and there are lots of competing products coming
out.  And if MAC and IBM dealers start buying Amigas to build standalong
toasters at a lower price, then that's likely to result in a larger Amiga
market since these boxes will likely have the Amiga name on them.  This would
seem to be to NewTek's advantage as well, since they have other Amiga products
to sell and it would also encourage other vendors to do software products that
complement the NewTek's products on the Amiga.

Of course, they can increase the price on the standalone toaster at a later
date.

re                     <<< Note 5130.12 by SALEM::LEIMBERGER >>>
>                              -< They don't care >-

>    The Toaster is not being marketed as a computer for the same reason
>    CDTV is not being marketed as a computer. NewTek sees it's market as
>    the Video Market. Many people already own Mac's, and PC's , and have an
>    investment in software that they use daily. In most cases the toaster
>    will be intergrated into a production studio as a discrete component
>    of the overall video production enviornment. Now they must use the

	The situation with A-MAX is somewhat analagous.  If I buy 
A-MAX so that I can run  ONE SPECIFIC MAC APPLICATION  I don't want 
the mac community yelling,  "See, told_Ya_SO, wrong platform, shudda 
gotta mac in the first place.  Why don't you dump that and get this ?"

	Reg

Well, all this points out that there is one thing NewTek and VideoToaster
are seriously lacking:

A tough competitor.