Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Jolene,
    
    The Amiga can do all the serious stuff you wanna do.Fred Fish stuff is
    AMIGA only!
    
    
    Now go to your local PC guru and ask if the PC can do:
    
    True multi tasking
    CD quality stero sound
    Custom graphics chips for fantastic graphics
    etc etc
    
    Then go out and buy yourself an Amiga. Do a dir/title=pc in this
    conference. This has been discusssed many times. Also consider that
    the Amiga can run PC software with either a hardware or software
    emulator. So you have the best of both worlds, PLUS you have some
    really nice people here to help you with your Amiga!!
    
    Do a dir/title=ibem for the software emulator
    
    Greg
    

    The graphics on a good PC are better than those on a normal Amiga
    but then Amiga graphics are also good, so unless you're really into all
    that it's no problem.
    
    Both the Amiga and the PC can do everything that you mention and both
    probably have programs in the public domain that would do what you
    require so it really boils down to what else you want from a machine.
    To be honest, there's probably not a computer in the shops today that
    doesn't have word processors, spreadsheets etc available, so that's
    not really an issue.
    
    If a 386 VGA PC was the price of an A500 I'd buy the PC instead. But as
    it is, the Amiga is cheaper and so, I'd say, the better buy.
    
    
    				Jamie.

	This is just personal oppinion mind you, but I've had an A500 for
    about a year and worked with PCs and clones as well as other machines.

	If you've run on a VAX or other machine with multi-session capacity,
    a basic PC with it's vintage 1970 operating system will probably drive you
    up the wall.  (MS-DOS is vintage 1980, but is based on previous systems
    that are at least a decade older than it is.  It's not much different than
    DOS-11.)  The basic operating system software on the AMIGA includes both
    multi-session capabilities and a good, economical window system.
	If you buy a PC, you're in for a lot of hassle from the base software
    and hardware restrictions.  If you buy an Amiga, you won't know what you're
    missing in terms of agrivation.

	In terms of performance for the price, the Amiga is only fair.  You 
    can get more bang for your buck with the cheaper clones, but be careful
    when comparing speeds.  The Amiga uses a 680xx processor while the clones
    use 80x86 processors.  This is important because the 680xx processors can
    do the same amount of work done by an 80x86 processor in fewer clock 
    cycles.  A 25MHz 68030 processor has roughly the same computing power as
    a 33MHz 80386 processor.  Some of the applications you mentioned, like
    spreadsheets, can use the extra compute power, but others can't.  You'll
    need to figure what your mixture of work loads is in order to precalculate
    what your processing power needs will be.  Or you can do like the rest of
    us and buy what you can afford and upgrade if the choice was so bad that 
    you can't stand it.  Also remeber that your computing needs are likely to
    grow with time.

	The real key is the software.  You'll find more different kinds of
    software for the PCs of more different quality grades than you will on the
    Amiga.  The price of PC software is generally lower than it is for the
    Amiga because of the larger volume on the PC, however there is also less
    corrilation between the price and the quality (very subjective opinion 
    here) while you're more likely to get what you paid for with an Amiga.
    You'll find more brands of software on the PC for a given application as
    well.

	Up to this point, what I've said should probably have biased you 
    slightly in the favor of a PC in spite of its blemishes.  There are a few
    things that should definitely throw the decision the other way if they
    applied, but there is nothing in your base note that indicates that they
    do.  But here goes anyway --

	If you're interested in games, the Amiga is definitly a better game
    machine.
	If you're interested in video or sound or both (multi-media), then
    you'll find even the latest PC hardware barely adaquite in terms of speed
    while the standard Amiga hardware can generate very impressive results
    simply by adding a stereo amplifier.  With the addition of some additional
    hardware and software, you can end up with a system that is FULLY 
    professonal quality at prices that are affordable with a little planning.
	If you're interested in open system software, most UNIX applications
    can be run on the Amiga with little or no change, including the mail, file
    transfer and news services.
	There's not quite as much public domain software available for the 
    Amiga than there is for the PC, but the stuff available is generally better
    quality and is less likely to have been infected with viruses than the PC
    stuff is.  (again this is my opinion, but I've been collecting PD stuff
    for my Amiga for over a year and have not found a single virus.)

Jolene-

This discussion has been generally beaten to death many times over in this and
many other computer-related conferences. The single point I think hasn't been
made strongly enough in this particular thread is the difference between
PC clones and the Amiga as regards standardization of hardware and software.

On PCs, one must consider *which* graphics board, *which* mouse, *which* mouse
driver, *which* memory extension software, (etcetera ad infinitum) your
machine/you should use; compatibility between arbitrary collections of these
variables is definitely *not* guaranteed! On the Amiga, users kvetch to high
heaven if *any* program and/or hardware expansion peripheral doesn't work
completely with every other piece of gear and/or software on the market.

All Amiga software and hardware complies with (or attempts to comply with)
clearly-documented specifications, which ensure the greates degree of
compatibility possible. Scan this conference for examples of the types of
incompatibilities which (inevitably) nevertheless occur, then do the same in
one of the PC-related conferences. While a certain degree of computer literacy
will stand you in good stead regardless, I think you'll find the Amiga *far*
less demanding in that regard than the PC. You should actually be able to just
buy it and *use* it, which is what I think you're looking for.

(Oh, yeah, all that stuff in the preceding replies applies as well!)

Cheers,
	Bob

    Rather than do yet another comparison, I invite you, Jolene, to do your
    own.  Look at what software is available for each machine that does
    what you want.  Play around with each for a little while.  Consider
    your current and future needs (memory, hard drive, hardware
    expandability in general) and your budget.  Then make up your own mind.
    
    One other point.  With a little bit of shopping around, "brand name"
    PC-compatibles can be found for less than the equivalent DEC-label
    machines.  The Employee Purchase Plan is no bargain.
    
    Good hunting!
    
    Wes

With the MAC a lot of attention has been paid to user interface details
and is a very user friendly system, but it comes at a price, $$$$ and lack
of options.

With the PC, little attention was paid to the user interface, but a couple of
good applications, IBM's name, and price made it very popular inspite of
its horrible design and user interface.  However, the large market has spawned
lots of alternative sources of hardware and software and many have done it
their way.

The Amiga was designed by real operating system people, by people who wanted
to build an all purpose system, and that felt that standards were goodness.
The end result is a hardware and software system that is much like VMS: you
can add hardware and software to it rather easily.  And there is a great deal
of stuff available, although, like VMS, a lot of it tends to be rather
technical.

If all you want to do is spreadsheets and word processing, then buy the
cheapest PC that is fast enough for you, even if its obsolete.  All PCs
will be obsolete in a year and unless you spend a lot of money you can't
change that.

If you want to do desktop publishing, buy a MAC, but be prepared to spend
lots more than you'd like to spend.  If you're going that route, you'll want
a laser printer and scanner and those plus the MAC that supports them will
be expensive.

If you can deal with learning about technical stuff and want to get into
just about any kind of technical stuff for a lot less money than any
standard solution after investing a bunch of time learning about it, then
the Amiga is the way to go.  At the high end of the Amiga world, you can
do stuff for $10K that would cost $100K otherwise.  One the low end, you can
do more stuff on a 1 megabyte, 1 diskette system than you can do on a $1500
PC, although you end up doing a lot of disk changing and it is slow, but you
can get by for about $850.  Spend another $150 and pickup a second diskette
drive and your life is easier.  Add a couple of meg of ram and do some tailoring
and your life can be easier still ($150?).  Add a hard disk at $300-$500, and
now your at par with the PC.  Add an CPU excellerator and now you're ahead of
the PC (but if you had spend $2000 for the PC then you'd just catch up).
With the Amiga, you can enter worlds that you never thought possible, but
these worlds start dragging you into more and more hardware to support it.
The is particularly true in that broad category called `multimedia'.

    
    Being a new Amiga man and being the owner of a 386 pc forget buying
    Dec, the workstation even after the discount is more than an olivetti
    in the shops (Olivetti make our workstations)
    
    You can buy a good pc clone B/W monitor for about the same as a Amiga  
    with monitor add about 30 percent more for colour monitor for the pc..
    
    Graphics slightly sharper on the pc, not a great deal in it. Amiga is
    the better games machine but very good at the things you require.
    
    THE KILLER is software not as a previous reply mentions a good W.P here
    in the UK for the Amiga is about 150, the equivalent for a pc is 300+
    
    My opinion is, it does not matter which you buy, you wont go far wrong
    so dont worry to much.
    
    Good luck.

    Thank you VERY much for all of your responses.  Your suggestions, along
    with many from my peers at work, have helped me decide on going with
    the Amiga 500, extra floppy drive, and an extra floppy.  
    
    For now, I am going to hold off on the hard drive, and give the "disk"
    swapping a try.  
    
    I have looked through other notes, and have found conference
    surrounding a good finance package - PHASAR
    
    I have NOT found a good reference for a BASIC spreadsheet or a GOOD
    word processing package with Spell Checker.  ANY IDEAS?
    
    Also, in what other ways, can this unit help me with home information
    management:  Mortgage/loan computations, compound interest
    calculations, any others that you have found helpful?
    
    Any suggestions, again, would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Anything on FRED FISH that is worth while downloading??  
    
    Any other GOTCH'A's/ common problems any of you have had on this?  DO I
    need to start another note to get responses again.
    
    I'm must tell you, I am a rookie at all of this, so odds are you may 
    hear more from me in the not too distant future. 
    
    Thank you again, for all of your help.
    A new amiga user  ... Jolene

    Re .9:
    
>   Thank you VERY much for all of your responses.  Your suggestions, along
>   with many from my peers at work, have helped me decide on going with
>   the Amiga 500, extra floppy drive, and an extra floppy.

    I trust you're only buying ONE extra floppy drive.  You didn't mention
    memory -- the A501 (or equivalent) clock/memory expansion is nearly a
    requirement for what you want to do.  A 512KB A500 will have you
    swapping TOO much.  Having a full 1MB makes a significant difference. 
    (Having 2MB means you can do away with the external floppy AND improve
    your performance by defining a RAM disk.  The ICD AdRAM 5xx series let
    you configure up to 6MB of RAM in lieu of the standard A501.)
    
>   For now, I am going to hold off on the hard drive, and give the "disk"
>   swapping a try.  

    So be it.  Eventually, you'll want a hard drive.
    
>   I have looked through other notes, and have found conference
>   surrounding a good finance package - PHASAR

    PHASAR is generally well regarded.  There's a recent discussion about a
    public domain package called Checkbook Accountant that's downloadable
    from the Fred Fish collection on TAPE::.
    
>   I have NOT found a good reference for a BASIC spreadsheet or a GOOD
>   word processing package with Spell Checker.  ANY IDEAS?

    There are several basic spreadsheets and a few that have more features. 
    Check out Advantage (Gold Disk), Analyze! (Micro-Systems Software),
    Maxiplan Plus (The Disk Company), or SuperPlan (Precision Software). 
    There ARE others to choose from, including Haicalc (Haitex Resources)
    for $60 (most of the above are about $100).
    
    For word processing, I recommend ProWrite (or QuickWrite, if you don't
    need all the features of ProWrite) from New Horizons Software.  It's
    true WYSIWYG (fonts and all) and has a nicely intuitive user interface. 
    Other favorites are Excellence! (Micro-Systems Software) and Pen Pal
    (Softwood).
    
>   Also, in what other ways, can this unit help me with home information
>   management:  Mortgage/loan computations, compound interest
>   calculations, any others that you have found helpful?

    The Fred Fish collection is full of little applications of this type.
    For example, Disk 385 includes MortCalc, which is described as
       "Yet another loan calculator, but this one was written with
    	accuracy in mind.  The monthly payments times the number of
    	months should balance the total principall plus interest, to
    	the cent.  Version 2.5, freeware, source included.
    	Author: Michel Laliberte"
    
>   Any suggestions, again, would be greatly appreciated.
>   
>   Anything on FRED FISH that is worth while downloading??  

    See above.
    
>   Any other GOTCH'A's/ common problems any of you have had on this?  DO I
>   need to start another note to get responses again.

    Of COURSE you'll encounter GOTCHAs!  That's why we're here.  Before you
    start a new topic though, PLEASE search the confirence directory for
    existing notes discussing whattever it is. We ALL started as rookies,
    and the same questions tend to come up repeatedly.
    
>   I'm must tell you, I am a rookie at all of this, so odds are you may 
>   hear more from me in the not too distant future. 

    This is news? 8^)  You know where to find us.
    
>   Thank you again, for all of your help.
>   A new amiga user  ... Jolene
    
    Have fun and welcome to the family.

If you intend to do any sort of word processing, don't forget a printer!

I will let others suggest which one - there is lots of discussion in this
conference, but I don't recall anything recent.  I am not a good source on
this because I have been managing with what I can beg from Digital.

	Paul

I can't emphasize enough what .10 said.  Back in the dark ages (1986), when
I got my A1000, I only had 512K and one drive.  The first thing I did was
add another drive, because the disk-swapping was driving me nuts!  Later, I
added a Starboard with 2Mb.  With 5 times as much memory as I had before, I
had many fewer visits from the GURU and was able to do amny things that I
couldn't before.  Finally, I got a hard drive and wondered how I managed to
live without it for so long.

I suppose if you don't have something, you won't know what you are missing.
However, in my opinion, the 3 things that improve the workability of any
Amiga system are an extra floppy drive, more memory, and a hard drive.

Dave

    Re .11:
    
>   If you intend to do any sort of word processing, don't forget a printer!
    
    That's right.  Printers have gotten both better and cheaper over that
    past few years.  AmigaDOS 1.3 comes with a good (though not exhaustive)
    collection of preferences printer drivers (that's a FEATURE, but I
    won't go into WHY right here and now).
    
    Good 9-pin printers that produce Near Letter Quality (NLQ) output in up
    to a half dozen fonts are readily available for under $200 these days. 
    
    Good 24-pin Letter Quality printers used to cost upwards of $400 -- now
    you can find them for $200-300, depending on features.
    
    Ink jet printers provide the APPEARANCE of laser quality (though one
    thread here talks about the inks running when they get wet) for under
    $1000 (I've seen advertisements in the $500-700 range).  Care and
    feeding is more costly than dot-matrix printers, but that comes with
    the territory.
    
    Laser printers are MUCH more expensive, but have no equal when it comes
    to serious desktop publishing.  Expect to buy either a font cartridge,
    a bunch (1.5MB or so) of expansion memory, and/or PostScript capability
    to tailor the printer to your needs (again, assuming you're SERIOUS
    about this).  Laser printers are actually xerographic copiers, which
    means they need the same types of supplies and periodic maintenance.
    
    Since 24-pin printers seem to provide the most "bang for the buck", I
    recommend last year's Panasonic KX-P1124 (if you can still find it) or
    its replacements, the KX-P1123 (cost-reduced, advertised for $199 this
    week) and the KX-P1124i (more fonts + "Super Letter Quality", at $299). 
    The nice things about these units is that they're compatible with the
    Epson-X and Epson-Q units that form the defacto standard.  I recently
    got the KX-P1124, plugged it in, set my preferences for Epson-Q, and
    voila!   It's wonderful!
                            

Don't forget you can always print to a file, then bring the file into
work and print it off on a nice Digital printer!


Greg

    I GOT ONE!
    
    Last night, I spend hours using my new system (with extra floppy and
    1mg of memory.  
    
    Now, I am contimplating if I made the right decision not getting a hard
    disk (I did so because the only ones they had were $500-700.  Can't you
    get one for under $250.00  I saw a note somewhere (I have unsuccesfully
    tried to dir/title= to find it)  The latest information on hard disks
    is from 6 months ago.
    
    Ok, I am not technical, but can I use a hard disk from an old DEC
    system.  
    
    What do I need to look for?
    
    Thank you again for all of your help . . . should I open a note on hard
    disk drives?  I have noticed a lot of cheaper ones listed in the
    Massachusetts area, but do not want to get something that will be
    failing alot!  Would posting a WANTED request be a good idea??
    
    Jolene
    

    Sorry for my last memo . . . as you can see, I was doing too much at
    once . . . spelling errors, spend/spent . . . multi-tasking with my
    VT420 I guess . . .
    
    One more thing, what are the latest and greatest flicker fixers / virus
    checkers??

Do a dir/title=hard
dir/title=rd
dir/title=rz

That about covers the hard drives, they have been discussed many many
times in this conference!


I think virusX would be good. It's on EOT somewhere.


Greg

    Re .16:
    
>   One more thing, what are the latest and greatest flicker fixers / virus
>   checkers??
    
    One thing at a time (starting with the easier one):
    
    VirusX 4.01 is in EOT::AMIGA:[AMIGA.UTILITIES]VIRUSX_401.LZH.  It's a
    minor update to V4.00, which seems to be among the missing (perhaps it
    was on a Fred Fish disk that was recalled due to the presence of a
    pirated program -- it happens occasionally).
    
    As for "flicker fixing", you must first ask, "what's it worth to you?"
    There has been extensive discussion of interlace flicker (what/why ...)
    elsewhere in this conference.  There are several solutions available to
    you at varying cost.
    
    0.	(no tech) Avoid high-res/interlaced operation.  (I use this
    	approach for the bulk of my routine operation -- it also saves on
    	precious "CHIP RAM", of which my A500 has only 512KB.)
    1.	(low tech) Turn down the contrast on your monitor or use a tinted
    	screen to give the same effect.  Flicker is most obvious/obnoxious
    	at high-contrast boundaries.
    2.	(med tech) Find a monitor with a high-persistence screen.  The
    	reason you see flicker is that the screen is scanned top-to-bottom
    	30 times a second in "interlace" mode as compared to 60 times a
    	second (hitting even lines on one pass and odd on the next) in
    	"non-interlace" mode.  High-persistence phosphors don't decay as
    	much between sweeps, thereby reducing visible flicker.
    3.	(high tech)  A deinterlacer board can buffer the video output and
    	display it at 60 FULL frames per second on a VGA or multi-sync
    	monitor.  The A3000 includes this by default.  For A2000 systems
    	only, both the Commodore "Display Enhancer Board" and MicroWay
    	"Flicker Fixer" do the trick.  For A500/A1000/A2000 users, ICD's
    	"Flicker Free Video" plugs in beneath the Denise chip to provide
    	the same functionality.  Unless you bought a multisynch monitor to
    	start with, you'll need to trade up (serious buck$).
    
    As a new user, I'd suggest starting off in mode #0.  I have only two
    programs that INSIST on high-res operation, but that's because they're
    trying to put lots of data on a fixed-size screen.  I'm two years into
    my "affair with Ami" and I *do* intend to upgrade, but there are other
    things that are more pressing.