Conference hydra::amiga_v1

My dealer has been able to confirm the following from CBM:


1) Approximately 15 people at CBM have been layed off/relocated/resigned

2) Several of them were technical people

3) Some were in the UNIX group. (USENET reported 8 people I believe)

4) Some of this is due to projects being completed (this might be a
   confirmation that UNIX 2.0 is completed).

5) The VP of Sale & Marketing has left (USENET rumor is that he resigned)

6) That 3000 systems (and possibly 1950 monitors) are 4-6 weeks backordered.
   CBM states this is due to the high demand because of the power-up program.


Keith

	Reprinted without permission from Digital News, Jully 22, 1991 page 9;

	Workstations Notebook

	Amiga Unix graphics improvement - The Unix workstation version of
	Commodore Bussiness Machine Inc's Amiga 3000UX has gained a graphics 
	option card. The Amiga 2410 card provides a high resolution display
	with 1,024 x 1,024 pixels.  Eight-color bit planes support display of
	256 colors on screen from a palette of more than 16 million colors.
	The card uses Texas Instruments' 34010 graphics coprocessor chip and
	is compatible with the Commodore 1950 multisynch monitors.  It includes
	1 MByte of video memory on the board and according to the company, 
	boosts X Window performance on the workstation. 

Here's a post from USENET. This info goes against what my dealer learned from
CBM, so believe what you'd like:


>Just called (US) CATS this afternoon:

>They (some CATS secretary-type, not the normal contact) say
>that the ONLY person who's "left" Commodore in the last week
>or so was Andy Finkel.

>He was in charge of the AmigaDOS 2.0 development team...
>"which is done now".

>When I asked "who's in charge of 2._1_ development?" she said
>"oh, that's another team."

>Nobody else has been let go, she sez.  (I didn't ask about the
>Unix group, sorry.)

>All I know...
>-- 
>Robin LaPasha              |Keeper of the Amiga
>[email protected]   |Hypermedia Mailing List



[Ed Note: This is the second "confirmation" that Andy has left. - kgb]

Keith

I just spoke with one of the laid off engineers. He confirms that the Unix
development got trashed. One person to meet contractual obligations with
the VPI deal - doing maintenance.

The number removed is 15, per my contact. 

AmigaDOS development is focusing on slotless amigas - re-creating the 
Commodore 64 market. The days of Amiga's with slots are limited. This 
is his opinion.

He is clearly pretty sour and feels that he got a raw deal (the package he 
described is pretty poor!), so some of that may be reflected in his opinions.

	-SES

(BTW - Are there any other Amiga UNIX owners in this conference? I'm the only one
listed in the survey note.)

I must say this is more than a disappointment. Glad my Amiga Software
investement still works in the 3000.

This doesn't paint a very bright picture for the Amiga.


Keith

    re: days of amigas with slots are limited
    
    that sounds like sour grapes.  The os support for slots is already
    in there.  I can understand the focus on slotless amigas, after all
    somebody has to do the work to make CDTV work.  And I'm sure CBM
    would love to recreate the success of the C64.
    
    Then again, isn't the 3000 massively backordered due to the tradeup
    deal?  That sounds like there is some demand for high end systems.
    
    Unless he was referring to focusing on slotless instead of how to
    support add-on graphics cards in a device independent way.
    
    Dave
    

    re .5
    	I would not start worrying yet. Un*x on the Amiga has made it's way
    into several universitys, and has had good reviews. I don't see a
    problem with laying off the group if the product is stable at this
    time. Lets look at it this way ! The project is complete, and there
    is no reason to keep 15 people around with nothing else to do. I 
    think that trashed is the right word, it matches the OS. I compare
    un*x to messydos in the respect that they both stink but are a
    necessary evil because of the applications that have been written
    for them. So I think it was necessary for CBM to enter the Un*x
    market, but I think it will be a uphill battle. The average Amiga user
    is not inclined to run Un*x, The ones that are are in a posistion to
    take advantage of the large market of available systems, and may shun
    the Amiga . Most Un*x users I have spoken too seem to relish the fact
    that it is not user friendly(I am bigger, and stronger than you because
    when I jog to work I run it all uphill), an in that vein they also tend
    to be loyal to their given hardware . If CBM raised the price of the
    a2000ux it may have a chance, but the average Un*x user I talk to don't
    believe you can run their sacred OS on any Amiga. This may be because
    deep down they know what a pig it really is. I don't know, all I really
    know is what I get from talking to these people. I do know a user with
    an 030 33mhz GVP card that would like to try un*x , but he can't get
    the OS seperatly for his 2000. Meanwhile he is amazed, and pleased at
    what the amiga can do running amigados. 
    							bill   

    I wonder if CBM has just seen the handwriting on the wall:  the amiga
    is tied to a power curve defined by the 680x0 series of processors.
    When they started the Unix port, the amiga was an attractive platform,
    but increasingly it will be behind the power curve of unix competitors.
    Maybe they just concluded that the potential market for 680x0 based
    unix systems was nil.

	Paul

Re: -.1

I wondered something like that also; it seems that this happened very soon
after CBM's attendence at UNIX expo.


here's some more info --


>While speculation is a normal activity on the newsgroups, it might be
>prudent to wait until we have information from someone who has it.  I get
>suspicious about 'facts' from an anonymous person not connected with Commodore.
>Remember, marketing and engineering aren't even part of the same Commodore
>subsidiary.
>
	As fate would have it, I had to get ahold of Richard Buck, ex manager
	of the 8 person UNIX group on the day of the slaughter. I tried calling
	him at about 4pm CDT 31 July '91. What I got was an answering
	machine telling me to contact another person for C= related
	stuff and his home phone for other info. So, I called him at home.
 
	To cut a 45 minute conversation down to size:
 
	1) No one had a clue that the cuts were comming. Sometime in the
	   late afternoon a manager gave them their pink slips. Richard
	   found out about it when he received his pink slip. He had
	   just finished scheduling 2.1 and people through the end of
	   the year. He had no idea he was about to be axed and he
	   was the manager.
 
	2) 5 of the 8 were cut outright. 2 were transfered to AmigaDOS
	   and 1 is left to wrap up loose ends on 2.0. Engineering
	   had 2.0 ready over a week ago. It still remains to be seen
	   if it will make it out of the firing mess. It sounds like it
	   WILL make it out but after the kamakazi cuts of last week who knows??
 
	3) Apparently some of the outside contractors/consultants/whatever
	   are still working on UNIX projects so I'm hopeful UNIX is just
	   temporarily derailed and that it will eventually be restored.
 
       The above is a summary, I'm not anonymous and 1 and 2 are factual
       assuming Mr. Buck didn't lie to me. I don't think he did 'cause he
       was still in shock from the firing when I talked to him, I think he
       had just gotten home from his ex work.
 
	[opinion text deleted]

 I think the cheap risc processors and the "clubs" such as OSF, ACE
 and the Apple/IBM handshake are making it more difficult for Commodore.
 Probably the hardest problem is trying to keep up in the Unix
 market which is very "clubby" these days. Although the IBM/Apple deal
 involves Motorola and won't produce anything of substances for a few 
 years (if it does), that deal has Motorola producing a RISC chip, not
 a 68xxx. 

 Also, I read, (maybe here) that the old C= marketing manager had the high 
 end focus and the new one has a low end focus.

 As for Andy Finkle, he may be a great guy and a great programmer/developer
 leader etc, but Amigados 2.0 is *very* late. The upgrade is a year later
 than announced and some 18 months past the first appearance of the 2.0 
 pre-release. Upper level managers don't like that in software development. 
 18 months is about the time suggested for an upgrade not the time to
 actually get it out the door. BTW, I don't know if was really Andy's 
 fault, I just know that seeing an ax fall is not that much of a surprise.
 
 And finally, two of Commodore's execs are among the highest paid execs in the
 world. They are both paid more than the top execs at many much larger companies.
 (Info from the "Bandito" in "Amazing Computing", I think.) Can't have
 those software weenies cutting into profits now can they. %-P

Re: .*

Well, I'm surprised.

I can only guess at why someone at Commodore decided this.

On one hand, as a few noters pointed out, the price performance of
the Amiga 3000 as a UNIX workstation isn't very good.  The problem is
that for about twice the price of a 3000UX, you can get about ten times
the performance (the new HP/Apollo workstation is $12000 for 57 MIPS).

On the other hand, as a low cost UNIX workstation, the price isn't bad.
That may be why the 3000UX is attractive to universities that require
their students buy UNIX workstations.

UNIX workstation purchasers are notoriously not faithful to any
particular hardware vendor.  Of course, some folks might worry that
Commodore might do something like fire everyone in their UNIX group...

Commodore had allied themselves with UNIX Labs or International or whatever
AT&T's UNIX "branch" is called these days.  And, Commodore got praise from
reviewers for being one of the first out with the latest version of
UNIX.

> As for Andy Finkle, he may be a great guy and a great programmer/developer
> leader etc, but Amigados 2.0 is *very* late. 

I don't know anything about this situation.  The only comment I can make is
that everything out of Commodore seems very late.  Every version of AmigaDOS
has been late, but then every piece of hardware has been late, too.  Remember
the Amiga genlock announced at the 1000 debut (two years late)?  Remember the
frame grabber displayed at the 1000 debut (three years late, finally shipped
by its developers when the rights reverted back to them because Commodore
hadn't sold any of them)?  Even CDTV was demoed over a year ago, and it
started limited distribution only recently.

    I was at The Memory Location about a week ago and was talking to Don.
    They are very upset with Commodore. It seems that the reason for the
    big powerup deal on 3000's is that Commordore found itself with a
    warehouse full of them, and that the machine was just not selling
    well. Well, they got a much bigger response to the deal than they
    expected, and quickly ran out of machines. Now they are taking their
    sweat time building new ones to meet the orders. I guess they don't
    want to find themselves makeing too many and filling that warehouse
    again.
    
    He also said that commodore was starting to give up on the high end
    Amigas and just want to push the A500 as a game machine. They want a
    CDTV or A500 in every home and play on selling them in most major
    chains. I can see how Commodore dealers would be very upset by this.
    
    Also, he said that the dealers are just about the last people on earth
    to find out about any of Commodores plans. Appearantly 2.0 has been
    announced at some show in Florida and the dealers were not even
    informed of this.
    
    They also find it difficult to deal with Commodore for parts. Commodore
    says that they have new roms available for the A2091 controllers which
    exhibit problems with more than one drive (mine does). They have had
    them on order for over two months and all they can get out of Commodore
    is that "they are shipping them".
    
    Sigh. All this is very depressing. He seemed very depressed. Also, is
    it just me, or has anyone else been there recently and found the
    shelves a bit bare?
    
    Frank

    RE -1
    	CBM has a history of seesawing on it's product Focus. I think that
    they are in a very good place to comoete with the Clones, and Mac's but
    outclassed if they step into the High End market. I agree that they
    don't seem to support their dealers as well as they should, and the
    state of confusion is depressing. However anybody that bought an Amiga
    1000 has seen this cycle many times and most have weathered the storm.
    I feel CBM did well in it's attempts to keep 1000 users thru upgrade
    paths ect an hope this trend continues. As far as the shelves being
    bare there are several things to consider. This is the traditional slow
    time for the home computer market, and people are out getting sun,
    payiny for vacations etc. Add to this that new software releases have
    been slow compared to a few months ago. You have to consider what bare
    means also. A dealer may have a large volume of inventory, but if you go
    in looking for new titles every day it will look bare. It also takes
    capital to order new titles on a constant bases, and that means you
    need sales as a dealer. People expect support, new titles every day,
    and highend hardware from their dealers, but then I see constant
    reference to mail order. Well it should not be a news flash that
    dealers are not in a posistion to compete with mail order houses, but
    they can offer support and other dealer added value. I see many people
    come into a dealers to LOOK at the packages, demo the software and then
    go buy mailorder. If I were a dealer I'd be depressed to . I am more
    concerned about the health of local dealers than CBM at this time.
    Unless the Amiga Community starts to support their dealers we will all
    be going mail order soon . Before I get heat on this I want it clear
    that I feel anyone has the right to but anywhere they wish, but If
    you don't support your local dealer then don't drain his resources.
    	For all the talk on how much is available in the IBM world you are
    even finding it hard to find a dealer in that market unless you go to
    Lechemere or such.  

    The solution to this problem is three-fold:
    	1.  Get rid of the current president of CBM.  He is the one that
    thinks that only A500s can sell.
    	2.  Get rid of Irving Gould, he is THE problem at CBM.
    	3.  Put people back in who KNOW computers and computer consumers!
    
    It is that simple!
    
    If you have CBM stock, vote Irving Gould OUT!
    Clark

Andy Finkel wasn't layed off - he is now running the CDTV team.

Also, Unix 2.0 isn't "done". It's not ABI compliant (apparently because the
68K ABI wasn't ready when they froze the features list). That was rescheduled
for 2.1.

	<mike

>Also, Unix 2.0 isn't "done". It's not ABI compliant (apparently because the
>68K ABI wasn't ready when they froze the features list). That was rescheduled
>for 2.1.

2.0 is done; but I agree CBM UNIX isn't completed. They WERE in the planning
stages for 2.1 before the layoffs. One of the issues for 2.1 was providing
color X-windows without the new graphics card. As it sits right now, it
is a requirement. This card lists for about $1000.

I'm not very happy about that.

    
    There are two kinds of management; Top Line and Bottom Line.  Commodore
    seems to be practicing Bottom Line management.
    
    The difference between the two, as explained to me by a former boss, is
    that Bottom Line management is fairly easy to practice.  You simply
    layoff or fire people and sell off assets and technology and you have
    instantly made money.  The shareholders love it, and by the time the
    company eventually goes belly-up, you are well into your next
    managerial assignment across town.
    
    Top Line management is a lot harder and requires clever and innovative
    managers.  You explore or create new markets, talk to your customers,
    invest in or develop new technology, and generally do things that would
    be considered long-range goals.  The Japanese seem to be good at Top
    Line management, as evidenced by creations like the Walkman (which no
    marketing survey would have predicted a need for).
    
    Anyway, I am not very upset by Commodore's latest Unix move, since I
    think they are not quite on the price/performance curve with the A3000
    anyway.  But I do think it's tragic that Amiga technology in general
    has moved forward as slowly as it has.  Commodore doesn't deserve the
    Amiga.
    
    Ed.

    re: Commodore doesn't deserve the Amiga
    
    If I remember correctly... the other options were Atari or going under.
    As a US owner, I'm glad Commodore got it, given what happened to the
    ST in the US.
    
    The thing to remember is that CBM does sell ibmpc clones, so even if
    the market for Amigas collapsed tomorrow, they will still have
    something to sell.  The Amiga is a chance for them to go after markets
    that the ibmpc clones have problems in.  I assume they are constantly
    checking if it would be cheaper to go with a ibmpc clone instead of
    an Amiga for a particular market.
    
    Dave

    RE: .17   Surprised to see you here Ed. Getting the Amiga bug again?

    
    Oh, I've always been lurking in the ether...
    
    I never really lost the Amiga bug, it's just that my requirements
    changed.  PCs are pretty boring, but one can't deny their usefulness
    for certain jobs.  It's a damn shame that the only really interesting
    affordable computer keeps getting kicked around so much.  It seems
    appropriate to blame it all on Commodore.
    
    Ed.

Re: -.1


Ed's no longer an Amiga user? My world IS crumbling!


Keith

Re: .18

>    The thing to remember is that CBM does sell ibmpc clones, so even if
>    the market for Amigas collapsed tomorrow, they will still have
>    something to sell.

The interesting thing is that CBM makes most of its money selling Amigas.
If the market for Amigas collapsed tomorrow, Commodore would be in deep
trouble.

But then, I don't so much care about what happens to Commodore as what
happens to the Amiga.

Too bad the doctors in Florida that financed Amiga, Inc. didn't have
more money.

Products are always late?  Are we talking about DEC?  Or IBM?
Oh, Commodore!  Right!

Managment is really screwed up?  Whose management?  DEC's?  IBM's?
Oh, Commodore! Right!

Product focus wrong and always changing?  DEC's?  IBM's?  Commodore's?

I know that as I contemplate buying an additional two to three more
Commodore's, I find all the pc related news unsettling, and especially the
news related to Commodore.  (I bought a used A500 a few months ago, was so
impressed that I signed up for the A3000 powerup, and am still waiting,
and am planning to provide my brother's family in Kansas with an A500,
plus a close friend's kids in Harrisburg, and maybe get another A500 so
that the stuff I do on the A3000 can be checked out on it before I send it
on to KS or PA.

But, I'm also planning to buy an 386 of some sort for my sister who works
entirely in a PC clone world and where knowing more about PC software means
more money; secretaries and clerks these days need to know PC apps more than
they know how to type or answer the phone.  But I am also worried about
making the right choice here.  Is a 386SX enough, or should it be a full
386.  386/16, 386/25, or 386/33?  How big a disk?  Which clone vendor?
Will that clone vendor be in business next year?  Will what I buy here
be as readily serviced in Maryland as here in NH?

I'm not really surprised that the computer market as a whole is slowing down.
There's really a lot of uncertainty about a lot of decisions because there is
so much knowledge that you need to absorb in order to feel confident that
you're making the right choice.  The best thing to do at the moment is to
delay making a many decisions as you can and hope that things will become
clearer later.

The one thing that I was able to determine was that the A3000 under powerup
was a really good deal when compared to MACs and even good compared to PC
clones, and it was the first PC that I could get excited about from a
technology standpoint.  It meets my requirement: good technology.  And I
see the potential for it being a good platform for doing kid edu kinds of
stuff, for which the standard even today is Apple II or clone.

And the ability to upgrade the A3000 to be able to run unix wasn't a negative,
although I would really like to see Commodore cut a deal with SCO (or similar)
to do OSF/1 rather than the the AT&T/SUN stuff.