Conference hydra::amiga_v1

	The main reason to buy a multi-sync monitor is related to PCs. Some
PC programs use the VGA adapter in EGA or CGA mode. If the monitor is not
multi-sync, these other modes display in a small portion of the screen.
Multi-sync monitors adjust the scan rate to take up the full screen. So, if you
are just using the monitor with your FF, a VGA monitor should fill the bill.
If you contemplate getting a bridgeboard or a separate PC, you might want to
spend the extra $$ for a multi-sync. There is no inherent reason why multi-sync
monitors should have better display quality than VGA on your FF.

    So if I understand, an VGA monitor and a FF card, could give me the way
    to perfect interlace mode ?
    
    						Erik Bussink

    I know a developer that has a flicker fixer just sitting on the shielf.
    He has the CBM card in his system, but liked the FF better. WHY??
    Because he says the FF will not be compatable with the Enhanced Chip
    Set. He has the Enhanced Chip Set in his 2000, and has just ordered
    2.0 roms from CBM. (he ordered 3 at 10.00 apiece), so I take his info
    very seriously. 
    							bill

I believe the FF _is_ compatible with the the ECS, but not with all of it's
weird modes.  If you have a NTSC FF, you won't be able to do PAL work, and
vice versa.

The FF is also limited to a physical resolution of 740x480 (approx), so 
trying to do anything more, won't work.

The CBM card certainly gives a bit more flexibility, but those are features
that I would probably never use.  

Steve 

Re: .*

The FlixerFixer is supposed to work with the ECS chipset for the traditional
video modes of that chipset.  The FlixerFixer will just produce a "garbage"
display if you use one of the new video modes.  You can connect your
monitor to the normal RGB port instead of the FlixerFixer to see those
modes.  Or, you could buy a switch box for the monitor to switch between
the two connectors.  See note 3967.3.

The main advantage of the Commodore Display Enhancer is that it recognizes
the new productivity video mode and automatically switches to displaying
the raw video from the Amiga.  Note that it does not recognize the new
SuperHires display mode and cut out: it just samples every other horizontal
pixel, turning SuperHiRes (1280 pixels across) into normal HiRes (640 pixels
across).  I believe that the Display Enhancer on the 3000 has a switch to
allow you to manually disable the Display Enhancer if you want to see all
of your SuperHiRes pixels.  I presume that the Commodore Display Enhancer
board for the 2000 has the same feature.

Both the Commodore Display Enhancer and the MicroWay FlixerFixer max out
at roughly 700 pixels and somewhere between 400 and 500 scan lines.  So,
their ability to handle overscan is about the same.

The advantages of the Commodore Display Enhancer are:

    Automatic passthru of the productivity mode signal: no need for a
	switch box.

    Manual passthru switch for SuperHiRes: no need for a separate switch box.

    Works with a genlock: the FlixerFixer needs an optional daughter
	board.


The advantage of the FlixerFixer:

    The FlixerFixer has an optional DEB board which allows it to be
	moved out of the video slot into a regular slot.  This frees
	the video slot for internal genlocks, a Video Toaster, etc.

Other than the above, buy whichever is cheaper.

    
    Gentelmen,
    
    	Thank you for this illuminating discussion about the pro's
    and cons of buying a graphics board, however the object of this
    note is to discuss the relative merits of VGA vs Multi-scan as I
    have allready purchased the Ficker Fixer.
    
    	Has anyone else purchased a VGA monitor to work with a Flicker
    Fixer?
    
    Harry
    
    
    

	I've seen the Flicker Fixer driving the Zenith Flat Tension Mask VGA
monitor. It was fantastic!.

	I believe there were some notes some time ago about having to adjust the
height or width of a VGA monitor to make the Flicker Fixer use the full screen.
Some monitors had enough adjustment range and others didn't. Anyone remember the
note number? You might want to try before you buy...

    
    re .7
    
    Where did you see the demo of the FF driving the FTM.  Do you know how
    much the FTM costs?
    
    I will search the notes on monitors to see if I can find the
    reference.
    
    

	It was a long time ago, but the Software Shop had it set up. They aren't
cheap. USA FLEX advertises them for $599. Also, used ones have been observed at
local computer shows for around $300.

    
    	My bother has used a seiko xxx  VGA monitor with the flicker
    fixer. He has been using it for years without a problem. The display
    looks great.
    
    		Steve P.
    

I also use a Seiko xxx (1550 I think?) which has the Sony Trinitron tube
and a FF. Looks great. 

I get about 704x450 ( I think) . The extra real estate on Workbench is 
great. I have not yet seen a program that has problems with this. Most
just open a standard 640 x XXX screen and you get a small border to the right 
and below the screen (which is the same as the background color of the 
applications screen, so you usually don't even notice it!)

john

Re: .7, .8, ...

I own a Zenith Flatscreen and a FlickerFixer.  It's a beautiful monitor
(still the best picture on a 14 inch I've ever seen), and it works well
with the FlickerFixer.

The FlickerFixer, unlike several other VGA and multiscan monitors, does
have sufficient range in its control knobs to allow you to spread the
FlickerFixer output to almost fill the screen.  I tried a few other
monitors, and found their controls to be inadequate, in my opinion.
I've heard that if you open the case on some monitors, you have
additional controls that allow you to spread the screen to a greater
extend than the external controls allow.

Disadvantages of the Flatscreen:

    1.	Fixed frequency VGA monitor: you depend on the FlickerFixer
	for your video signal.  You can't use the standard Amiga video
	signal, and you can't use some of the new ECS modes.

    2.	The monitor has a fan.  It's not a noisy as my early model 2000,
	but it is as loud or louder as later model 2000s.

    3.  The monitor does run hot.  It can really warm up a room.

    re .11
    
    How do you get 704x450?  What extra real estate?
    
    How much does the Seiko go for?
    
    Any other closet VGA users out there?  I thought that everyone used
    multi-sync when I first started this search
    

I think I run 704x470.  All you do is use the old MoreRows program,
and it modifys your prefs.  MoreRows will probably be obsolete with WB2.0 
since 2.0 gives such good control over screen size, resolution, etc.

These oversized, overscanned screens are potentially expensive in terms
of chip memory and CPU power - it's well explained elsewhere. 

Steve   

Additional to .5:

I forgot another advantage of the Commodore Display Enhancer over
the FlickerFixer.

The FlickerFixer is always a deinterlacer.  The Commodore Display Enhancer
is a deinterlacer or a scan doubler.

When the input to the  FlickerFixer or the Commodore Display Enhancer is
an interlaced video signal, both boards deinterlace the picture by
combining the current field of video data (200 scanlines) with the previous
field and output them as one 400 line frame.  The current field is stored
in the memory of the boards so that it can then be combined with the next
field of video when it comes along.

When the input is a non-interlaced video signal, the two boards function
differently.  The FlickerFixer continues to treat the signal as if it
was interlaced, and deinterlaces it by combining the current 200 scan
lines with the previous 200 scan lines.  The Commodore Display Enhancer,
in contrast, just outputs each scan line twice.

The difference shows up if you are moving objects around quickly on a
non-interlaced screen:  Let's say you have a square that you move one
pixel to the right every sixtieth of a second.  The normal Amiga
video looks like this:

*****

*****

*****


(the blank lines represent the fine black lines that appear on the monitor
do to the non-interlaced signal only using half the monitors display area.)

A sixtieth of a second later the image looks like this:

 *****

 *****

 *****



The above animation under a Commodore Display Enhancer looks like
this (since the scan doubling just writes each line twice:

*****
*****
*****
*****
*****
*****

and a sixtieth of a second later:

 *****
 *****
 *****
 *****
 *****
 *****

Under the FlickerFixer, the animation looks like this:

*****
*****
*****
*****
*****
*****

and a sixtieth of a second later:

*****
 *****
*****
 *****
*****
 *****


Since half the scan lines are from the previous field of video, half
the scan lines are in their original place.  The net effect is that
moving objects get fuzzy until they stop moving for a thirtieth of
a second.

Both boards show the deinterlacing motion artifact if they are working
with an interlaced input signal.  That's inherent in an interlaced signal.

I have a FlickerFixer with a NEC MultiSync-II. This combination works well,
but there is not enough adjustment on the monitor to fill the screen. However,
I find it important to be able to "view" the standard Amiga RGB output from
time to time. Especially on some games, demos, etc. that do alot of horizontal
scrolling. The FlickerFixer (and any other deinterlacer) causes anything that
moves horozontally to "ghost". I have my monitor hooked up to a switch so I
can switch it between the standard output and the FlickerFixer. As stated
earlier, if you get a VGA only monitor, you will not be able to use it on
the standard output.

Frank

As Steve said,  I use MoreRows to get the 704 x 470 (not 450 like I thought) 
max size.

The Seiko 1450 has controls on the back for adjusting horizontal size and 
position. I am easily able to fill the entire 14" display with Workbench. In
fact, I can over size it by a good ammount.

I paid around $650.00 for the monitor, but I think $700 was the price (Moe
at the Software Shop owed me a favor :-) )

john

Re: .13

>How do you get 704x450?

The Amiga hardware is capable of actually producing a larger than 640 by
200 (400, if interlaced) picture.  That is what the "overscan" support
is.

The problem is that as you increase the number of pixels per line and
lines per screen, the custom chips must access more memory.  Since
access slots to memory is a resource that can be used up, the effect
of an overscan screen can be the custom chips steal memory access
cycles from the CPU, thus slowing down its access to chip memory.

Another effect is the the custom chips themselves may not have enough
memory cycles to perform all their possible duties.  For example, displaying
bitplanes has a higher priority than displaying sprites.  If you use very
large overscan screens, some of the higher number sprites may not display
at all, or their display might fragment.  This can effect some games
(only those games you play without rebooting from the game disk itself).