Conference hydra::amiga_v1

If you haven't looked at the other "novice" notes, you probably should.
There is a lot of good information scattered around the conference, but 
it is sometimes hard to find.  I asked many of the same questions approx 3
years ago!  Perhaps try dir/title=new or dir/title=Mac or dir/title=novice.

My 2 cents:

The Amiga is very capable of doing all the drudgery you've mentioned.
Budgets, WP, envelopes and lists, etc, are a breeze.  With it's multi-tasking
ability it probably handles these things much better than most.  There are
some very nice applications to do all that.

I'll leave the video questions to the experts, but there was a short
article in Amiga World about how Todd Rungren created his latest video
using Amiga/Toaster combinations (5 each, actually).  He had been using
Macs but found that the price/performance was outstanding for the Amiga.
(He actually owns a Mac software company, who's name escapes me - Utopia? :^)
There was also a video tape of Computer Chronicles that someone might have.
One episode covered the Amiga and the Toaster. 

It's interesting that the old negatives always leave such an impression.
Commodore has done an excellent job with improving support, UI consistency, etc.
They really seem committed to both hardware and software quality, and provide
excellent support (especially for developers).  Go to a good store and play 
with WB2.0 - it's fantastic.  Personally, I think the communications software
is excellent - and most is shareware or PD.  

The A2000/A3000 differences are pretty well documented.  The A3000 comes
with many standard features that are optional on the A2000.  It has a
'display enhancer' to improve display quality, high performance hard drive,
more expanability regarding memory, just to name a few.  The A2000 may
be better suited to video due to it's larger case - or so it's been said.
You can _almost_ turn an A2000 into an A3000, by adding the missing pieces,
but it won't be as well integrated.  The A3000 is pretty slick.           

Generally speaking, before you decide on a computer you must know what you
want to do with it.  If it's just basic home computing, anything can do 
a respectable job - and a Mac is probably the friendliest.  If you plan to 
do home computing + video, graphics, animation, titling, etc - then an Amiga 
may be the best bet.  It certainly has great price/performance, and is an all 
round super machine.  Get some demos and decide what you need, it's too 
much $$$ to make a bad decision.

Personally, I don't do any video or animation.  I don't own any games.
I like it because it's fun to program, and I dabble with some art.
However, someday I do want to get into animation - and that option will
always be there.  Someday...   

Steve

    Re .0:
    
>   But since I'm in the video field, I'm considering an Amiga.  I've read
>   a number of magazine articles and a book on Desktop Video... and the
>   Amiga and Toaster seem like an interesting package.  Of course, I
>   realize that a true Desktop Video application with even simple editing
>   needs two s-VHS or Hi8 decks that can read time code, a Time-Base
>   Corrector, an Edit Controller, and maybe an audio mixer... but it seems
>   that at this moment, the Amiga offers the least expensive way to get
>   started in this field.
    
    I'm not a desktop video expert, but this is consistent with my
    understanding.  A recent development has been the appearance of TBCs
    that can be mounted within an A2000 or A3000 (they use an AT slot).
    
>   I'm interesting in the NEGATIVES as well as the Pluses of the Amiga. 
>   I've heard, for example, that Commodore support sucks... that Amiga
>   software is inconsistent in its interface and can be difficult to load
>   onto a hard drive... that using modems and communication SW can be
>   tricky  (how about if a client asks me to E-mail him a script and he
>   uses a Mac (or a PC)?).
    
    1.	Commodore's support has improved of late.  Reputable dealers have
    	provided good support all along.  The major exception is that
    	Commodore WILL NOT support systems bought from unauthorized dealers
    	(in particular, the Montgomery Grant mail-order folks).
    
    2.	AmigaDOS strikes me as unusually CONSISTENT, compared with other
    	systems (particularly MS-DOS).  By defining standard file formats
    	and interfaces, the AmigaDOS developers have made it relatively
    	easy for users get software from a variety of publishers to work
    	together smoothly.  In fairness, the Mac developers did the same
    	thing.  On the other hand, every Amiga ever made is "32-bit clean".
    
    	The Intuition GUI isn't as rigorously policed as that of the Mac,
    	but it's easy to use and generally consistent.  Workbench V2.0,
    	which ships with A3000 systems and will eventually be available
    	for upgrade on the other models, provides significant improvements
    	(not that 1.3 was bad...).
    
    3.	The Amiga supports the same modems as the PC and Macintosh.  There
    	are a number of good communications programs (but fewer good BBS
    	programs), including several commercial-quality shareware offerings.
    	On the other hand, there are only a few LAN offerings available on
    	the Amiga and some of the commercial network services (most notably
    	Prodigy) have ignored it.  A lot depends upon the frequency and
    	volume of data you need to transfer.  It would be feasible for you
    	to establish an Amiga-based BBS into which your clients could dial
    	to transfer messages/files -- you could even be using the Amiga
    	for your OWN work simultaneously.
    
>   I'm not real computer savvy. For example, a lot of the notes in this
>   conference go over my head!    The other alternative for me would be a
>   Mac LC, with the new cheapo Laser printer.  The Macs seem nicely
>   packaged and supported... and there's lots of software for them.  I
>   know I can run IBM software on the Amiga with the "Bridgeboard", but
>   doesn't that defeat the purpose of getting an Amiga?  (I know the Amiga
>   excels with games, and I'll no doubt buy a few, but that's not the
>   prime reason I'd  acquire one.)
    
    Buy the system that does what you need to do.  If you need the Video
    Toaster, your choice is to configure an Amiga with it or to connect
    NewTek's add-on unit (an A2000 with a Toaster, hard drive, and memory
    in a "plain brown wrapper") to your Mac (or whatever).  You won't find
    as many Amiga titles as you will for the PC or Mac, but that doesn't
    matter as long as you find software that does what you want.  There's a
    good selection now, with more on the way.
    
>   Also, what's the main difference between the A2000 and the A3000?  I
>   know you can't use the Toaster with the A3000 because the box is
>   smaller... but there's a competitive product called the Video Blender
>   that is pictured with the A3000 in ads.  But I haven't read anything
>   about the Blender.
    
    The A2000 has a 68000 as its standard CPU.  This is the same CPU as is
    used in the Mac classic, though the Amiga's custom chips give it a
    decided performance advantage (the Amiga's CPU isn't responsible for
    screen painting).  The A2500 has a 68020 (as in the Mac II) in its
    CPU expansion slot.  At power-up, you can select which CPU to use (some
    games only like the vanilla 68000).  The A3000 has the 68030 (as in the
    latest high-end Mac II machines) as its standard CPU.  The A3000 has
    faster memory access (and can configure up to 18MB) than the A2x00
    (which can configure 9MB) but the A3000 has fewer expansion slots.
    
>   If anyone in the southern NH area is using a Toaster, and you'd be
>   willing to show me how you use it, please give me a call.  I'll be out
>   of town from June 9- 22nd, but you can reach me at home at 603-465-7780
>   in Hollis.  Or just reply to this note-- I'll read it sometime before
>   the end of June.  Many thanks!
    
    There are Video Toasters on display at several local Amiga shops.  The
    best layout is probably at the Memory Location in Wellesley, MA. 
    System Eyes in Nashua has one, but I don't know how well they've
    mastered it.
                                             

    
    Another way to get a start is to buy a used system, you might even
    be able to get an Amiga and a Mac for the price of a new Mac LC.
    
    Whenever a new release comes out, there are folks trading in or 
    selling their current stuff to buy the latest stuff.  Amiga is due
    to get a major release, 2.0, and the enhanced chip set.  Mac just
    announced/shipped version 7.0 which needs 2Meg of RAM.
    
    Dave
    

    Both Commodore and NewTek believe very strongly that the Video Toaster
    *must* be made available on the Amiga 3000.  Comments on Usenet indicate
    that both companies have been working toward that end.  I expect we'll
    be hearing some 'official' news in the not-to-distant future...

Re: .0

>    I've heard, for example, that Commodore support sucks... 

Pretty far from true these days.  Amiga 2000s and 3000s now come with
"gold service."  If it breaks anytime within a year, Commodore send a
repairman to you home or office to repair the machine.

>that Amiga software is inconsistent in its interface and can be difficult
>to load onto a hard drive... 

The only software that doesn't load onto a hard drive is games.


>that using modems and communication SW can be tricky

Using modems and communication software is tricky the first time that you
do it.  But it is no harder to do it on an Amiga; and it is no easier to
do it on a Mac or IBM clone.


>(how about if a client asks me to E-mail him a script and he uses a Mac
>(or a PC)?).

Not a problem as long as you send him the ASCII version of the script instead
of your word processor's special format file.  Word processor programs usually
store extra information in the file that tells it what fonts are being used,
where the paragraphs break, where underlining is used, etc.  These files
can only be read by the word processor program that created it.  However, all
word processors allow you to save the file as pure text, which can be read
by anybody (even humans).  Otherwise, you don't only need the same computer
as the client, but you need to have used the same word processing program.
(Although, I believe that Wordperfect Amiga creates files than can be read
by the MS/DOS Wordperfect).


>    If anyone in the southern NH area is using a Toaster, and you'd be
>    willing to show me how you use it, please give me a call.

Systems Eyes, the Nashua Amiga dealer has a toaster set up for demos.
Call them at 889-1234 for directions, then drop by.


>    Well, at the end of this month I'm leaving DEC (after 8 years) to go
>    freelance as a video producer/director/writer.  

If you plan on doing that sort of work with your own equipment, then an
Amiga is your only choice for a computer.

    Thanks, folks, for your insightful replies to .0!
    
    It's good to find out that Commodore isn't so bad, and that the Amiga
    isn't at a disadvantage with its software, communications, or value for
    $$ invested.
    
    I guess the next step is to visit the Memory Location and see what's
    what.
    
    I'll continue to review this Note (and the entire Conference) over
    this-- my last-- month.
    
    Thanks again!
    Andy
    

    Re .6:
    
>   Thanks, folks, for your insightful replies to .0!
    
    We don't claim to be unbiased, but we can be brutally honest.
    
>   It's good to find out that Commodore isn't so bad, and that the Amiga
>   isn't at a disadvantage with its software, communications, or value for
>   $$ invested.
    
    There's always the "is the glass half full or half empty?" syndrome. 
    The denizens of this conference see the Amiga as "half full" and are
    actively seeking to fulfill its potential.
    
>   I guess the next step is to visit the Memory Location and see what's
>   what.
    
    TML is open until 8pm on Fridays and 5pm on Saturdays.  There's a
    better-than-even chance that you'll run into one or another of us on
    any given Saturday afternoon.
    
>   I'll continue to review this Note (and the entire Conference) over
>   this-- my last-- month.
    
    One thing you'll miss when you leave is the AMIGA notesfile.  You'll
    want/need someone to answer "dumb" questions, so you might want to
    start your "support network" before you go.  (I'm willing, though I
    live in Newton, MA -- someone here live near Hollis, NH?)

This month's Byte has "yet another" GUI article.  Actually, it was pretty
decent, and the Amiga got some good coverage (not as much as it deserves, 
but it's an improvement). It explained some of the concepts pretty well,
and discussed the +/- of various GUI's - Mac, Amiga, MS-Windows, Motif, OS/2,
etc. 

Each GUI component that they felt was most important - the Amiga excelled at:
multitasking, inter-process communication, scripting (ala ARexx), 
reasonable consistancy, ease of use, ease of configuration, etc.
The drawbacks were lack of built-in networking support (not too major
for the home user), and lack of high bitplane displays (ie. 8+).

To paraphrase the last paragraph:

For ease of use look at the Mac, Amiga and NeXT.  The Mac has the most
applications.  The Amiga has more advanced features that make it particularly
well suited to some applications.  The NeXT is all round excellent, but
lacks software (only about 80 applications, vs 4000 for the Amiga, and 8000
for the Mac).

This was (of course) based on WB2.0.  One of the Mac mags has a article
on what's available for video, but I didn't read it - just saw the cover.

Steve

    RE: .0 & .2
    
    I have a friend of mine who also left his job and went freelance as a
    Video type person (What is the official title???) :-)
    
    His system comprises of A3000/25 50Meg + 210 Meg Hard drive 18M Memory
    (Which he says he still wants more !!!) and numorous software packages
    including REAL 3D and 40,000 different animation type packages and of
    course the Art Department Professional. The reason for the massive
    ammount of memory is for REAL 3D. With this program whilst doing a
    render REAL 3D takes almost all the memory in your amiga - the more
    memory you have the faster the render is. 
    
    Unfortunately officially the Video toaster won't fit into a 3000 just
    yet but I have heard of some hacks on how to squeeze it into the space.
    
    RE .2
    
    Using AREXX he sets up REAL 3D to do a 100 frame render sequence
    overnight and whilst his amiga is doing this he runs PARAGON BBS
    Software in tthe background for his BBS. There is a noticable speed
    loss on when you dial up but considering you can't even come close to
    doing this on a MAC/IBM then it's remarkable.
    
    *** WARNING *** Bias statement following.
    
    When purchasing a computer just remember the original slogan ...
    
    ONLY AMIGA MAKES IT POSSIBLE !
    
    
    Shaun.
    
    - Sorry can't offer any help for you when you leave DEC unless you want
    to ring Australia.
    
                 

re        <<< Note 4792.8 by WHAMMY::spodaryk "For three strange days..." >>>
>                        -< check out Byte (shudder :^) >-

> well suited to some applications.  The NeXT is all round excellent, but
> lacks software (only about 80 applications, vs 4000 for the Amiga, and 8000
> for the Mac).

	At least this is a benchmark - albeit a very rough 
approximation.  I'm always beating up my management about the Amiga 
being multi-tasking, they're always beating me up that there is  "NO" 
software for it.  Eventually they admit that there is "some" but 
nowhere near as much as for the mac ,,,,,and on and on and on.
I wonder if the 4,000 vs 8,000 just represents twice as many 
competitors in each arena ?   Oh, if I bring these numbers to their 
attention they'll just say that 3,995 of the Amiga applications are 
"just games" (-: (-:   but all I ever see running on their macs is the
damned aquarium thing, the audio is quite good for a mac - realistic
sounds of fish blowing bubbles;  F A N T A S T I C  gotta havva mac ! 

	Reg

I believe the article stated that the Amiga had about 2500 "commercial"
applications, with the remainder being made up of high quality public-domain/
shareware software.  Maybe one of the Amiga mags would have a closer estimate.

The problem is not the quality of the software, mainly the fact that very
few Amiga's have made it into the "business" world.  They are sneaking
into schools and even goverment shops, so maybe the coporate world is next? 

Steve

    re: .0
    
    I was also wondering a while back which system to buy to start building 
    an editing suite... for the buck the Amiga won hands down!  I just 
    got a VT and it works and looks great!  A very worth while investment.
    
    As far a the Video Blender goes, the good points is that it says it
    requires no TBCs and it has a unlimited amount of video effects.
    It doesn't have 2 24 bit frame buffers, 24 bit Paint program, 3D program, 
    CG, and of cousre no digitizing capabilities.
    
    The VT can be bought at CompuAblity for $1349 (includes shipping), the
    Video Blender for $1295.
    
    That's why I decided on the VT.  TBC's can be bought for $789 and are
    still coming down!
    
    In my opinion Amiga is the only way to go for quality video productions
    at a resonalbe cost.  Think I should go into sales? 8^) 
    
    ~Ray    

    Is there "something" out there that will allow the A2000 to use more
    than 9meg of memory, ala the A3000?
    
    mark
    

    
    re .13
    
    	The NEW GVP 68030 cards for the A2000 allow for 16 MB amd 32 MB
    	of fast ( 32 bit ) RAM.
    
    	The is a board to put 2 MB of chip ram into a 2000 to give a total
    	of 10 MB.
    
    re toaster in a 3000 ...
    
    	The problem is more than just fitting the board in. There are some
    timing changes in the 3000. I was told you need to replace a couple of
    the custom chips too. If you want a toaster get a 2000 with a good
    68030 card.
    
    		Steve P.
    

This is the PC that DEC should have made, and in many ways we tried, but
we weren't aggressive enough.  I worked on the PRO, so I have a lot of
appreciation for what was done with the first Amiga at almost the same
time.  The people who started out the Amiga, and those who have worked
on it for the past half decade, have a lot of appreciation for the
qualities that we working on DEC systems tried to include in our systems.

I've been so impressed by the A-500 and the people I've run into as I've
started learning about them, that I'm on the verge of buying an A-3000
for $2250.  This is from someone who agonized about spending $600 for
a used but reasonably well equiped A-500 (1meg, two floppies, monitor,
some business software, and a daisy wheel printer).  Three months ago
you couldn't have convinced me that owning a PC made any sense at all,
especially when I was so used to doing lots of graphics based multitasking.

Ok, so that's my assessment as a techno-junkie.

If you spend an afternoon at SystemEyes, you'll run into a lot of DECies;
in fact the owner is an exDECie.  All of them seem to have some flavor
of `state of the art' multimedia/graphics kind of focus, with limited
funds.  I suspect the same is true of the memory location, etc.

The question really comes down to what are you going to do.

If you aren't going to seriously try to get into graphics, multimedia,
and other similar techno oriented work, and you're really just going to
do word processing kinds of things on a PC, then an IBM PC makes a whole
lot more sense, because you can get IBM clone desk anchors for cheap
anywhere.  Or, you might look for a used DECmate; you should be able to
find one real cheap, and you're already up to speed on it.

If you're seriously into a new career, and you're really ready to learn
new tricks, then the Amiga will be a good place to start.  You can
probably get it done with a MAC, or even IBM clone, but it will cost
you a lot more.

� do word processing kinds of things on a PC, then an IBM PC makes a whole
� lot more sense, because you can get IBM clone desk anchors for cheap
� anywhere.  Or, you might look for a used DECmate; you should be able to
� find one real cheap, and you're already up to speed on it.

    Sorry to bust in with my bias exposed Mike, but I have to disagree with
    you on this one. While the "cheap" part of your above statement may be
    true, you also get a "cheap" OS (if you can call it that). A similarly
    priced clone just cannot compete productivity-wise with the Amiga.
    The problem most people have is getting their "mind-set" out of the
    single task syndrome. I know lots of DEC employees with multisession
    terminals (ala VT3xx) who don't take advantage of this feature either
    by ignorance or, more likely, "mind-set". Hell, try to convince some
    people with non-sessions terminals to pause their current sessions on a
    LAT line and start another; they just can't get "set host" out of their
    heads. I think the same applies to the Amiga's native multitasking vs.
    the clone's MS-DOS. Agreed, a single floppy, memory-lean Amiga can be
    frustrating at times, but it's a much better platform to *start* with,
    so adding the right stuff (more memory and then a hard drive/multiple
    floppies) makes it pure joy. I don't think the same can be said for
    the clones.

    Picture this: you're typing away in your WP, and you decide it's time
    to save he last hour's work. You grab your trusty "Docs" floppy, insert
    it, and select "Save". But alas, the floppy is full and not a formatted
    blank one in sight! On the clone what would you do? Perhaps the WP can
    hibernate itself and open a DOS "shell" so you could grab that cup of
    coffee while you format a new floppy. Of course with the Amiga, you can
    still type away while your floppy formats. Or maybe you need to access
    some data to insert into your document mid-stream. Multitasking makes
    this part a dream, especially when you are working at home and you have
    to download that data from work; start your terminal emulator, dial-in,
    start your download and then go back to your WP for a proof-read or run
    the spelling checker. You could reach the end result with a task
    switching machine, but you'll consume lots more coffee. The point I'm
    trying to make here is that even if you're only interested in word
    processing, don't let the machine limit you, let it do the work for
    you. So, the next time you see a fellow employee twiddling his thumbs
    while he prints out a 12-page ECO with his VT330/LA75, introduce him
    to sessions...

    Apologies for the flag waving (but make mine Amiga!),

    Pete

>This is the PC that DEC should have made, and in many ways we tried, but
>we weren't aggressive enough.  I worked on the PRO, so I have a lot of
>appreciation for what was done with the first Amiga at almost the same
>time.  The people who started out the Amiga, and those who have worked
>on it for the past half decade, have a lot of appreciation for the
>qualities that we working on DEC systems tried to include in our systems.

I brought my A1000 into DEC and showed to to a group of workstation engineers 
FIVE YEARS AGO.  They were blown away by it back then.  Think they'd get off 
their butts and make a few changes in the direction of DEC's future products?  
No.  We gave the desktop away.  We laughed at PC's like the Amiga and Mac 
because we thought they were consumer toys.  Boy were we (DEC) wrong.

I have worked on Macs, PCs, VAXstations and DECstations.  I don't know how DEC 
can continue to sell such (my opinion, also shared by the people I work with) 
brain-dead stuff.  The user interface on VAXstations, as well as the windowing 
performance of that interface clearly sucks when stacked up against something 
as simple and elegant as the Mac.  Yeah, this is a flame, but I'm tired of 
promoting products that are ultra powerful, but impossible to deal with, 
unless you have a programming degree, or two.  The response from DEC, "We're 
DEC and we're right."

We missed the boat with our PC's back in the early 80's.  We're missing it 
again.

But this is falling on ears that agree, but are powerless to change anything, 
or deaf ears that just won't learn and adapt.

Randy

    re: coffee
    
    You've found a new reason to buy Amigas - too much coffee can be bad
    for your health. "Amiga, the healthy alternative".
    
    And fewer cups reduces the risk of spilling it in the computer.
    
    Of course you could get mind-numbed keeping track of all those things
    you are running, and spill the coffee anyway :-)
    
    
    re: getting it right
    
    It's a single tasking world out there, the results of years of
    conditioning...  Until you are exposed to the alternative, or were
    never told that you could only do one thing at time, you don't realize
    what you are missing.  Sort of like B&W tv is fine, until you see
    what Color tv is like.
    
    Consider if DEC had come out with something like the Amiga back in
    1985, would it have been any more successful that Commodore's efforts?
    
    Dave
    

And then we wouldn't own them and we wouldn't be so frustrated by the lack
of a comparible product at DEC and the sense of impending doom from CBM
failing to produce anything.  And given DEC's view of 3rd parties, there
wouldn't be any interesting things like videotoaster, so who would care.

Sigh...I wish I had the optimism I had a decade ago, or even the spirit I
had walking out of ZKO after spending 30 hours working on a PRO baselevel.

    I live in Nashua N.H. . You are welcome to drop bye if you would like.
    	I don't own a toaster but I do have the Supergen 2000s, JX100
    scanner(more valuable than a toaster if you want to input logos etc)
    and much of the high end software. I can be found on saturday
    afternoons at System Eyes. The Amiga to me is the only platform
    available that will do video the way it should be done. I have talked
    with three professional Video studios that use the Toaster. All are
    very pleased, and one was not sure it could do the job at first.
    Why ? Because the price was to low. 
    
    						DTN 285-3482
    						bill