Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I saw the list, since I am a register ProWrite owner.  It looked good
    until I read it carefully.  Notice that there is no PostScript output,
    only "Near-PostScript quality printing on dot-matrix printers".  That's
    marketing-speak for "no PostScript".  Since I have a PostScript
    printer, the flyer hit the wastebasket.
    
    The PostScript addon to ProWrite still hasn't been updated to support
    the new features in ProWrite V3.0, so I don't have much hope they'll
    be adding PostScript to this program in the forseeable future.
    
    I use ProDraw.  It's slow and clumsy, but it produces PostScript
    output.
        John Sauter

    
    I share the concerns for the lack of PostScript as well.  I had called
    these folks some time ago regarding this product and the person I spoke
    with was quite emphatic that postscript was not even considered at that
    time.
    
    Potential buyers ought to look into PDraw and ProVector before jumping
    on this one.  
    
    Frank
    

I was looking for a RAGS like (object oriented) drawing program. Something
faster cheaper and less complex than a full CAD program.

What are PDraw and ProVector?

john

    I don't know about PDraw, but ProVector is an object-oriented drawing
    program.  I can't compare it to a full CAD program because I've never
    used a full CAD program, but I found ProVector adequate for converting
    a scanned image into a line drawing, with halftones.  It has layers so
    you can keep independent things separate.
    
    I took an image of a drawing of two monkeys examining a computer
    printout, drawn by 8th century American Indians, and converted it back
    to a line drawing, even though I can't draw worth a hoot.  Because
    ProVector has PostScript output I was able to take this drawing and
    include it in the document that is our organization chart.  Each monkey
    is in a separate layer, as is the printout and the basket from which
    it emerges.
        John Sauter

Re .4:

>    I took an image of a drawing of two monkeys examining a computer
>    printout, drawn by 8th century American Indians, and converted it back
	       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Gee, I'm not sure what's more amazing- a computer in the 8th century, monkeys
who could use one, or the obvious journalistic sense of history of the
Indians. Must have been quite a moment!

  _____
 / . . \
{   .   }
 \ \_/ /
  \___/

    
    .Re .3
    
    John,
    
    That's exactly what I was looking for "a RAGS like" program.  All three
    of the things being discussed here fit that bill.  I think ProDraw and
    ProVector offer much more than the New Horizens product.
    
    I've used both and ended up buying ProVector.  It's difficult to
    compare ProDraw and ProVector.  Each has powerful features lacking in
    the other.  You have to pick and choose what you like.  ProDraw is
    about $129 and ProVector is about $175.  IMO ProDraw offers more 
    features for the money than ProVector butfor my needs ProVector
    is a better match.  
    
    I'll take the chart Dave Buch types in and try to do feature comparison
    (to the best of my ability) and then i'll up load it.
    
    Frank
    
    
    

John,

Here's  a rough cut at features of the structured drawing programs.  I don't
own  ProDraw  so  some  of those are from memory.  I'm sure ProDraw has more
features  which  I've  fogotten.   The  deciding factors which influenced my
purchace of ProVector over PDraw were:

 - an UNDO command was essential
 - ability to do fill patterns was essential
 - screen update speed was a big plus
 - on-line help was a big plus


Pro	Pro	Design
Draw	Vector	Works
------	------	------
slow	fast	fast	Fast and intuitive structured drawing
yes	yes	yes	Create lines, rectangles, polygons, ellipses,
                             arcs, and freehand objects
?	yes	?	Creation of sub-polygons (for hole creation)
yes	yes	yes	Smoothed (Bezier) curves
no	yes	?	Smoothed polygons (fit bezier to polygon)
no	no	yes	Optional arrows on lines
no	yes	?	Curve/Uncurve feature (a bezier fit)
yes	yes	yes	Clone, rotate, mirror, and scale objects
?	yes	?	Scale line thickness with object scale (optional)
?	yes	?	Set spline accuracy for freehand drawing (in pixels)
yes	yes	yes	Group/ungroup objects
yes	no	?	Merge/Split polygons at control points
yes	yes	?	Control point editing
no	yes	?	Adjustable object "magnetisim" strength 

yes	yes	yes	Text with multiple fonts, sizes, styles, and colors
yes	yes	?	Wrap text to objects 
no	yes	?	Edit existing text without delete and re-entering
Yes	Yes	?	Scaleable fonts
---	---	?	Fonts included 
yes	---	---	Fonts included (2 outline)
---	yes	---	Fonts included (2 outline, 7 stroke)
yes	no	no	Compugraphic fonts supported
no	yes	no	Page Stream fonts supported
yes	yes	?	Appropriate font conversion utilities included
yes	yes	?	Convert text strings to character objects

yes	yes	?	Manual Tracing for generating clip art
yes	no	?	Automatic Tracing generating clip art

sort-of sort-of	yes	Automatically align objects relative to each other
yes	yes	yes	Grid snap on/off
yes	yes	?	Adjustable grid settings
yes	no	?	Independent x,y grid adjustment
yes	yes	?	Grid display on/off

?	255	?	Max colors per allowed drawing (palette size)
yes	yes	yes	Variable line thickness
yes	yes	?	Selectable line join styles
yes	yes	?	Selectable line patterns
yes	no	?	User defineable line patterns
no	yes	yes	Fill patterns
n/a	32	?	Max fill patterns per drawing
n/a	yes	?	Fill pattern creation, editing, sizing
n/a	yes	?	Any object including text can be used as fill
yes	yes	?	Independant outline and fill colors

no	256	yes	Multiple drawing layers
n/a	yes	?	Layer attributes (display, lock, edit, etc)
yes	yes	?       Layering of objects within a single drawing layer
yes	yes	?	Changing object/text attributes
yes	no	?	Blending (special effect)
yes	no	?	Custom Distortions (special effect)

yes	yes	?	Keyboard shortcuts for commands
no	yes	no	On line, context sensitive help
no	yes	?	Context sensitive pop-up menus for obj editing
no	yes	?	A good manual!
no	yes	?	UNDO command
no	yes	?	UNDO command levels (up to 255 set by user)
no	yes	?	REDO command
yes	yes 	?	Cut/Paste between drawings
no	yes	?	Uses clipboard for cut/paste
yes	n/a	n/a	Uses an "art board" for cut paste
yes	no	?	A wireframe mode to speed up screen rendering

no	yes	yes	AREXX port
n/a	yes	?	User configurable ARexx menu
n/a	yes	yes	Macros, when used with ARexx
n/a	128	?	Number of built in ARexx functions

yes	yes	yes	Custom page sizes
?	---	yes	Drawings up to 100 inches by 100 inches in size.
?	yes	---	Unlimited drawing page size
1    unlimited	10	Number of Dwgs open at the same time
n/a	yes	?	Each open drawing has a unique palett
yes	no	yes	Ruler 
yes	yes	yes	ruler/grid/dwg units = inches
yes	yes	yes	ruler/grid/dwg units = centimeters
yes	yes	no	ruler/grid/dwg units = picas
yes	yes	?	Display coordinates and rotation angles (optional)
no	yes	?	Built in color brightness control to reduce flicker
yes	yes	yes	Magnified and reduced views

yes	yes	yes	Import IFF pictures
yes	no	no	Import and manpulate EPS (outlines only)

yes	yes	yes	Near-PostScript quality printing on dot-matrix printers
yes	yes	yes	Sideways printing on Dot Matrix printers
yes	yes	yes	Color Support for Dot Matrix printers
yes	yes	no	Postscript out (portrait & landscape)
yes	yes	no	EPS out (portrait &landscape)
yes	yes	no	Color Postscript & EPS out
yes	no	no	RGB Color separations out
?	yes	?	HPGL output
yes	yes	yes	IFF output
?	yes	?	IFF output: User specifies x,y size & resolution
?	yes	?	Scaled partial plots as well as full plots
		
?	yes	yes	Fully customizable
?	yes	yes	Full support for WB 1.3, 2.0
yes	no	?	Creation of project icons
yes	yes	?	Interlace mode supported
?	yes	?	Automatic screen adjustment for overscan
no	yes	?	Low memory warning (no guru!)
no	yes	?	Includes separate Version which uses FFP library
no	yes	?	Includes separate 68020/30 version
no	no	?	Copy Protected
?	yes	?	Automatic hard disk installation procedure
$129	$175	$90 ?	Approximate mail order price

    

    I looked at Pro Vector when it first came out. it did not mention
    anything about using ProPage,ProDraw format clipart. It took in all
    kinds of format except those. It appeared to me it was geared toward
    the users of Saxton Publisher. Does ProVector work with ProDraw Clips ?
    							bill
    PS. If it dosen't work with ProDraw clips it would be useless to me at
    present. I like the combination of Prodraw,Propage but would not mind
    getting another package to supplement the art process

    
    re .8
    
    Bill,
    
    You are absolutely correct ..... ProVector does not PDraw clip format.
    A minus for PPage, PDraw users.   And yes, the ProVector folks seem
    to have migrated in the direction of Saxon and PageStream in terms
    of compatability.   
    
    ProVector file format is in IFF-DR2D format.  I guess this is now a
    registerd standard with C= for 2 dimensional drawings.  There is a
    chapter in the manual which gives a detailed description of this file 
    format. ProVector will eventually support the CG fonts.  They've just
    begun work on that and feel it's quite a way off. 
    
    Frank

Thanks for the very comprehensive list, Frank.  I guess since I don't know
what half those features are :-), I'll have to sit at the Memory Location for 
awhile to see what they all do.

At almost 2x the price, ProDraw should have many more features, but I wonder
if DesignWorks is adequate for my use. 

john