Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I switched from an Apple IIe running AppleWorks to the Amiga.
    If I were doing that today I'd use SuperBase Pro for the data base,
    ProWrite for the text editor and PlanIT for the spreadsheet.
    (These are the products I use today.)
    
    The integration isn't as smooth as with AppleWorks, but with a hard
    disk you can write the data out of one program and read it into
    the other very quickly.
    
    I use Superbase Pro, PlanIT and AmigaTeX (as a report writer) to keep
    track of family finances.  Once you get used to it entering checks
    and posting returned checks doesn't take much time, and you always
    know where you stand with respect to your budget: I "close the books"
    every Saturday, and do a 53-week projection.
    
    Because these are just tools and not a complete application you will
    have to do a lot of customizing to make them do finances your way.
        John Sauter

    re. AppleWorks - Amiga
    
    I agree with .1, SuperBase Pro is probably the answer, but don't expect
    it to be easy.  I have yet to see a database program on the Amiga that
    comes close to AppleWorks ease of use (especially the tabular entry
    which I have not seen on any other database).  Expect many hours of
    frustration trying to set up databases and reports the way you want
    them as this is a "professional" relational database and very powerful. 
    You *can* set up simple databases without too much trouble but watch
    out when you try to do reports to the printer.  Once you learn your way
    around the program, it is fairly simple to do reports but the problem
    is that the docs s*ck and don't really explain how to do anything. 
    Rely on the example databases provided for much of your information.
    
    The is a program by MSS called The Works! which is a spreadsheet,
    database, word processor package but I do not feel any of it's elements
    are very good.  You might check it out though.  As I said, I've yet to
    see any database program that comes close to AppleWorks ease of use for
    personal databases.
    
    For a SpreadSheet, I use VIP Professional.  This is a 1-2-3 lookalike
    but does not support the mouse.  
    
    For word processing, I use Scribble!.  Easy to learn and use, with a
    spelling checker.  
    
    Another thing on databases, every database I have come across requires
    that every record stored be written to the disk immediately.  If you do
    not have a hard drive, this is going to seem extremely slow.  SuperBase
    Professional has a way around this by loading the data file into memory
    first then moving it back to disk when you close the file.  This is
    explained in one of the Appendice.
    
    Ken
    

    For you Superbase Pro users, V4.0 is now shipping. The $125 upgrade
    offer has been extended from April 1 to April 15 (you must have your
    upgrade request postmarked by April 15th).
    
    Precision claims that the software has been completely rewritten and
    that the documentation is all new as well.
    
    From an ease of use perspective, Superbase Pro can be much easier to
    use than Appleworks, depending on how effective the program was
    written that you are using to enter your data. It might take a while 
    to become proficient at writing programs with it, but once you get the 
    knack ...
    
    BTW, V4 now supports .GIF pictures as well as .IFF.
    
    RE: .0 There is a pretty good Mac emulator for the Amiga. And someone
    has mentioned an Apple II emulator out there somewhere.
    

Another thing I'd like to be able to do with my new Amiga (still haven't
bought one) is to somehow transfer data from an existing mailing list
(of about 10,000 names) and convert it to something that the Amiga can
use to create a data base file.  The original data was created under CP/M
on an Osborne or KayPro and is spread over about 20 CP/M flopies.  I
suppose the only hope is the good old serial port trick.

Bob...

Yah, serial port transfer would seem the fastest route. Superbase has the
ability to read in a formatted text file and construct a database from it. It's
possible that others can do this as well, I don't know.

Bob

     In the FWIW department, this comes up from a search of the
     Fred Fish PD disk collection. I have no idea if they will help.
     
     
******************************
FF155-162.LIS;1
 
ECPM		A CP/M emulator for the Amiga.  Emulates an 8080
		along with H19 terminal emulation. Update from version
		on disk number 109.  Includes source.
		Author:  Jim Cathey; Amiga port by Charlie Gibbs;
			 Significant improvements by Willi Kusche
 

******************************
FF163-172.LIS;1

 
CPM		Another CP/M emulator independently authored from the version
		that appeared on disk #157.  Emulates a CPM computer with a
		Z80 processor connected to an ADM3A terminal.  Assembly
		source included. 
		Author:  Ulf Nordquist
 

******************************
FF179-194.LIS;1


SimCPM		A CP/M simulator for the Amiga.  Simulates an 8080
		along with H19 terminal emulation.  Includes source.
		This is version 2.3, an update to version on disk 109.
		Author:  Jim Cathey; Amiga port by Charlie Gibbs and
			 Willi Kusche

     

And what's more they do work ! - well to a degree. I had problems with Wordstar.

I had a small custom application with 400-500 records running on CP/M on my
old Apple ][+.

I transfered the daya to the amiga, converted to ascii format and sucked 
it into Superbase Personal.

I've successfully had CP/M versions of Zork running on one of the emulators. I
had to hack the screen handling routines a bit.

Mike

    Re .4:
    
>   Another thing I'd like to be able to do with my new Amiga (still
>   haven't bought one) is to somehow transfer data from an existing
>   mailing list (of about 10,000 names) and convert it to something that
>   the Amiga can use to create a data base file.  The original data was
>   created under CP/M on an Osborne or KayPro and is spread over about 20
>   CP/M flopies.  I suppose the only hope is the good old serial port
>   trick.
    
    That's one of several ways to do it.  If you can write an MS-DOS disk
    (using UNIFORM or some other package) in Apple CP/M, you have a leg up
    on a disk-to-disk conversion.  Even if you can't, I can help (using my
    C=128 and *its* CP/M mode 8^).

    I still have my old Apple IIe and an Amiga 2000, (recently upgraded
    from an Amiga 500). Still use the Apple on rare occassions to play some
    of the older games, etc.
    
    FWIW, I have found PHASAR to be an excellent replacement for Dollars and
    Sense. For Word Processing I lean towards PROWRITE. Must agree with
    prior replies though, there is nothing equivalent to AppleWorks.
    
    Randall

Thanks for the replies so far.  Sounds like several of you would vote for
ProWrite and SuperBase.  I saw a Platinum version of TheWorks -- the hype
on the box sounds ok.  Any recommendations?

re .9	I'll probably be keeping my Apple IIe too -- after all, who'd want it!

Now for a hardware question -- on my most recent retail expodition I was told
that a 2000+parts excatly equals a 2500, is that true?  I would guess that
they might be logical equivalents.  He also said that you'd have a 3000 if
you add more parts -- that seems even less likely.

What speed CPU is in a 2500?

If I add an accelerator to a 2000 does it make any difference where I add
additional memory: on board the accelerator, on a SCSI disk controller card,
on a plain vanilla memory board, ... ?

Bob...

Re: .10

>Now for a hardware question -- on my most recent retail expodition I was told
>that a 2000+parts excatly equals a 2500, is that true?

Yes.  The 2500 is just a package deal from Commodore: a 2000 plus an
accelerator card plus a disk controller and disk.

Commodore has changed what was in the package from time to time.  Originally,
a 2500 has a Commodore 68020 card plus A2090(a) disk controller.  Eventually,
Commodore switched to 68030 card plus A2091 disk controller.  The newer
package is called the 2500/30.

If you bought an Amiga 2000, and the Commodore 2091 disk controller, and
the Commodore 68030 card, plus a hard disk, the only difference between
your machine and an official 2500 would be:

    1.  You would be missing the "Amiga 2500" sticker on the front
	of the machine.

    2.  You would not have a brace bar plus foam rubber strip across the
	inside top of the 2000's cover to add some extra rigidity to
	the disk controller card in case you mount the disk on it.
	(I have no idea why Commodore doesn't sell the bar/foam pad
	with the 2091 if you buy it separately.)

Some people occasionally call adding third party (like GVP) boards
to a 2000 as making it into a 2500.  I believe that gets you an
equivalent machine (maybe slightly better or worse), but I think it
is abusing Commodore's trademark, and I disapprove.

>He also said that you'd have a 3000 if you add more parts...

He is wrong.  There are some differences between the 3000 and 2000
due to improved design in the 3000 that can not be duplicated via
option boards.  For example, the 3000 can access chip memory twice
as fast as a 2000.  The 3000 also comes standard with a Agnus chip
that can handle 2 Meg of chip memory.  (Although I have heard of some
gadget to allow a 3000 Agnus to be installed in a 2000.)

That isn't to say that you couldn't add enough hardware to a 2000
that make it run faster than a 3000.  For example, there are 50 Mhz
accelerator boards for the 2000 that make it run much faster than
any 3000 you can get right now.

    
    
    re .10
    
    	Yes, a 2000 plus a CBM 68020 or 68030 makes a 2500.
    
    	There is no way to make a 2000 into a 3000. You can get
    most of the functions by adding third party add-ons.
    
    What's in a 2500 ?
    	The original 2500 had a 25 MHZ 68020.
    	The 2500/30 now has a 25 MHZ 68030.
    
    If you are adding a 68020 or a 68030 you want to put the memory
    on the accelerator board. It make a big difference.
    
    		Steve P.
    

Re: .12

>    	The original 2500 had a 25 MHZ 68020.

I wish.  It only had a 14+ Mhz 68020.

>> If I add an accelerator to a 2000 does it make any difference where I add
>> additional memory: on board the accelerator, on a SCSI disk controller card,
>> on a plain vanilla memory board, ... ?

Add the memory on the accelerator. Adding it on a memory card or a SCSI card
that's on the Zorro bus means you only get to access it via the 8MHz bus,
16 bits at a time. This is a significant performance hit. On '020 cards,
we're talking about a factor of 2 or better. It'll be worse for an '030.

>> Some people occasionally call adding third party (like GVP) boards
>> to a 2000 as making it into a 2500.  I believe that gets you an
>> equivalent machine (maybe slightly better or worse), but I think it
>> is abusing Commodore's trademark, and I disapprove.

That's a "2500 clone". Like clone's in the IBM world, it means you get more
bang for the buck, but could have compatability problems later.

>> That isn't to say that you couldn't add enough hardware to a 2000
>> that make it run faster than a 3000.  For example, there are 50 Mhz
>> accelerator boards for the 2000 that make it run much faster than
>> any 3000 you can get right now.

I'm not sure about that "much faster". a 33MHz machine should be roughly
30% faster. That creeps into the "just barely noticable" category for things
you don't take a coffee break for. I don't think you can get 0 wait state
memory for a 50MHz machine, so it won't be 100% faster than the 25MHz A3000.
Anyone with a 50MHz card want to swap benchmarks?

	<mike

    I don't approve of calling a 2000 with a GVP 030 cad a 2500 . I do feel
    it offers considerable more though. I have seen several of the 33mhz
    systems ,and they seem far faster than the 2500. I think it also has to
    do with the nibble mode ram sold with the card. I have seen 2 50mhz
    systems,both with toasters,and I can tell you they were screamers.
     
    As for the 2000hd range of products I strongly feel a 2000 with a GVP 
    controller is the only way to go. The major consideration here is that 
    GVP will allow you to put 8 meg of memory on the controller the CBM card 
    only allows for 2. I also feel the Fasstrom scsi software is better than 
    the stuff CBM sells. The dealer that sells you a 2000hd over a 2000
    with the GVP controller is getting a higher profit margin,and he gets
    to bone you for a memory card tomorrow. I love my Amiga, but I think
    CBM needs to put a little more effort into some of their products. a
    good example is the fact that if you want a CD rom you have to go third
    party, while CBM is on the verge of releasing CDTV. I felt they should
    have brought CD rom support to the 2000 series asap. As for
    compatability the point is valid. However with GVP supporting a full
    line of options, and seemingly sticking to CBM's specs I don't see it
    as a problem.
    
    In Regards to a 3000 I too believe that if you want a 3000 you have to
    buy a 3000. I'd opt for a 2000 with a 030 card but my preferences are 
    certainly noted by now. If you are buying a system for a family I'd
    have to say go with a 2000 + whatever. If your into video,and a toaster
    you don't have a choice it only the 2000 + whatever. I imagine someday
    I will upgrade my 2000 but not today. I haven't seen the mix of
    software I like running on the 3000. I also don't like the way the 3000
    displays raytraced pictures. For all that is said about the new display
    mode etc I see the display on the 3000 as being like VGA. The colors
    all seem to be flat with no depth. 
    
    Bottom line: 
    	Any Amiga is a nice addition to any home. Of course you could buy a 
    2500, and a 5000, and a toaster for the cost of some of the other
    systems around that support color. As of late I am more impressed with
    the quality software that is being developed than ever before. 
    							bill

    re -1 that should have read 500 not 5000 (at least not until the year
    2000). 
    							bill

    
    Re: Amiga software...
    
    Funny that you should mention that Bill... I recently have seen some
    press releases for 'breakthrough' modeling programs from AutoDesk and
    AT&T for PC clones.  These programs retail for $3000 and offer about
    1/3 the functionality of Imagine.  In fact, I'd say that they are about
    at the level of where Amiga modeling software was four years ago.
    
    Of course, no mention whatsoever of the Amiga as a pioneer/leader in
    the creation of artificial ray-traced worlds.
    
    Ed.

>>    Funny that you should mention that Bill... I recently have seen some
>>  press releases for 'breakthrough' modeling programs from AutoDesk and
>>  AT&T for PC clones.  These programs retail for $3000 and offer about
>>  1/3 the functionality of Imagine.  In fact, I'd say that they are about
>>  at the level of where Amiga modeling software was four years ago.
  	You can now get sculpt 4d for the mac for only 2500.00.
	I'm not sure if this supports animation.  
>>  Of course, no mention whatsoever of the Amiga as a pioneer/leader in
>>  the creation of artificial ray-traced worlds.
	I thought you knew that us amiga owners are only dreaming about 
the stuff we do. I mean it can't exsists until the Mac,and Ibm people 
invent it.
	I do need a presentation package for the Decstation. However I can't
swallow hard enough to gulp down $200+ for limited functionally. I currenty
do graphics on the Amiga,and then convert them to VGA for use on the
decstation.
								bill
ps I'd rather have a 500 with floppies than a clone with a hard drive!
    
    Ed.

    Re .18:                  
    
>   ps I'd rather have a 500 with floppies than a clone with a hard drive!
    
    True, but you don't have to stoop to such a serious either-or choice.
    
    Though one can buy an AT clone with a hard drive for under $1000, the
    price of a similarly-equipped A500 isn't too far out of the box.  By
    the time you add a monitor, a mouse, MS Windows 3.0 or GEOworks and
    enough memory to let it work reasonably, you're talking a system price
    in the $1500-1700 range.
    
    One can easily package an A500P (A500+A501) with a C=1084 monitor and a
    hard disk (instead of the second floppy) for a comparable amount of
    money.  A500 prices will probably drop another $100 this year, as will
    the cost of add-on disk subsystems and the DRAM chips to go with them.
    
    Once you're running, there's NO COMPARISON between MS-DOS and AmigaDOS! 
    Even Windows 3, which does limited multitasking, is victimized by the
    plethora of incompatible "standards" that have appeared in the MS-DOS
    environment.  Where the Amiga has one mouse interface (optionally
    supporting a three-button Sun mouse as a superset), the PC world has no
    fewer than three that don't work the same.  Where MS-DOS disk support
    makes geometries (cylinder/track/head) a visible consideration,
    AmigaDOS hides all that.  Where each MS-DOS application invents its own
    format for the storage of graphics/sound/WYSIWYG data (resulting in
    application incompatibilities and a growing market for conversion
    programs), the IFF standards in AmigaDOS provide a high degree of
    compatibility among applications.
    
    In my completely biased opinion, 60 million MS-DOS users CAN be wrong. 
    The Amiga may never do better than a distant third in the home computer
    race, but that's good enough as long as it can achieve "critical mass"
    and continue to receive developer support to provide a good selection
    of high-quality applications.  I don't need twenty mediocre word
    processors when there are two or three good ones to choose from.

    re .18
    
    " You cannow get Sculpt 4d for a MAC for only 2500.00. "
    
    	It is interesting that the latest reviews of animation
    software for the Amiga say that Sculpt 4D has fallen behind.
    I know I haven't seen an upgrade in years.
    
    		Steve
    

>>    	It is interesting that the latest reviews of animation
>>  software for the Amiga say that Sculpt 4D has fallen behind.
>>  I know I haven't seen an upgrade in years.
  Here'e a story I heard this weekend from a former CBM product demonstrator.
	He said that he had the chance to talk to the guy that developed Sculpt
4d.(he is on a first name basis but I can't remember). This was at siggraph
after they had released the Mac version. Paul asked him if he was still
supporting the Amiga, and he swore up, and down he was. Later some folks came by
the booth paul was in asking about modeling programs. Paul took him to meet
the developer,and as they got into earshot he heard the man disavowing
everything he told paul earlier. He was telling the Mac people that he was done
with the Amiga etc. So I don't expect to see anything from them. Sad
considering they got their start on the Amiga. Of course the Mac world is
attractive. NO multasking to worry about, and very little competition in the 
3d rendering world. I guess they could not play in the real 3d rendering world.
No loss to me I picked Turbo Silver SV out as the winner a long time ago. Now 
I'll upgrade to imagine,and never look back. I wonder what all the developers
that jumped ship think about the Toaster,and CDTV.
							bill

    I think the previous few replies are getting away from the original
    topic.  Let's get back on track.  After all, this was a Apple - Amiga
    conversion note, not an Amiga - IBM comparison note.
    
    Ken
    Z