Conference hydra::amiga_v1

The Fred Fish Collection on CD ROM

The definitive source for freely distributable software for the Amiga   

     HyperMedia Concepts has placed the entire 410 disks currently in the
Fred Fish collection on a single ISO 9660 format CD ROM disc.  The
collection is presented in its original form, organized by disk, which
makes it possible to use current indexes of the library to easily locate
virtually any program or file on the disc.  A unique feature of the disc
is the inclusion of a second copy of the Fred Fish collection in Pkware's
ZIP format.  The path to the ZIPPED disks conforms to the MS-DOS pathing
requirements making it usable with any BBS software supporting CD ROM
drives.  This makes the disc ideal for use by BBS system operators
wishing to provide the entire Fred Fish collection online.

	Fred Fish Collection On CD ROM.....$69.95  (Until 4/15 $50.00) 
	Updates to registered users........$29.95
	Subscription ......................$99.95  (Until 4/15 $89.95)
		  (Fred Fish Collection On CD ROM plus 2 updates)





CDROM-FS

     HyperMedia Concepts, Inc. also offers CDROM-FS, which is a CD ROM
driver and file system software, produced by Canadian Prototype Replicas.
 CDROM-FS supports SCSI CD ROM drives which read industry standard ISO
9660/High Sierra CD ROM format discs.  This software will allow you to
connect virtually any SCSI CD ROM drive on the market to the Amiga. 
CDROM-FS comes with clear, concise instructions making it easy to install
and use.

	CDROM-FS...........................$50.00


For further information or ordering please contact:

HyperMedia Concepts, Inc.
P.O. Box 85303
Racine, WI 53408
Phone: 414-632-3766

re               <<< Note 4566.1 by KALI::PLOUFF "Ahhh... cider!" >>>
>                       -< Fred Fish CD-ROM Announcement >-

	Sounds interesting, price is OK too, but.....

	I've seen the Xetec ads in Amiga oriented magazines, but in 
the back of M*c and I*M magazines there seem to be lots of CDs 
available, "Introductory 3 pack for $99; Encyclopedia, Atlas & Bible"  
sort of deals, but they're not advertized in the Amiga mags  - -  what
gives ?   What more (than ISO 9660 High Sierra format, a SCSI
interface and device driver) is required and lacking on the Amiga ? 
Is something else needed to get at the on disk file structures ?  or is
that all defined by some kind of init block ?   I'd hate to buy a 
Xetec CD-Rom reader and find that the  ONLY  disk I can use is the FF 
library, though it would be cheaper than a set of floppies.

	R

> gives ?   What more (than ISO 9660 High Sierra format, a SCSI
> interface and device driver) is required and lacking on the Amiga ? 
> Is something else needed to get at the on disk file structures ?  or is

Applications.

An ISO 9660 file system allows you to do a directory of the CD, or to copy
files off it. However, the stuff on the CD (graphics, Encylopedia, Bible etc)
require an application that run on the Amiga which knows how to *interpret*
the data in the files.

Like DECwindows bookreader. You can mount a bookreader CD and do a DIRECTORY
of it, since the CD is standard Files-11 ODS level 2. However you need the
bookreader application to display the manuals.

Granted, it a mere matter of porting the Mac or PC applications to Amiga...

john

re         <<< Note 4566.3 by STAR::GUINEAU "but what was the question?" >>>
>                               -< applications >-

> Granted, it a mere matter of porting the Mac or PC applications to Amiga...

	So, errr, when were you planning to enter Beta test ?  (-:

	I think throwing hardware at the problem is simpler, even if 
its less fun;

	"A Max-II  and a  Bridge-board  to go, please"

> > Granted, it a mere matter of porting the Mac or PC applications to Amiga...
> 
> 	So, errr, when were you planning to enter Beta test ?  (-:
> 

It might not be so bad if you could get the authors to give you the 
source code to the applications :=)

john

    
    
    	I just recieved the Fred Fish CDROM and CDROM-FS last night.
    I works great. I installed the software on my system and put
    the CD in the drive. Up came a disk icon, lots of driectories
    and lots of files.
    	I'm using a Sony 541 drive on a GVP controller. Both are not
    on their list of supported hardware. But everything is working.
    
    	The software package also includes a programmers tool set.
    that contains a SCSI.LIBRARY to help talking to any random
    SCSI device. It also includes a sample program that controls
    CDROMS that have music and data ( many new CD drives have this now ).
    
    		Steve Peters
    

re         <<< Note 4566.5 by STAR::GUINEAU "but what was the question?" >>>


> It might not be so bad if you could get the authors to give you the 
> source code to the applications :=)

	I tried that and got:

%DCL-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling
 \GIVE\

	I guess the GIVE verb doesn't exist in commercial software (-:


	Seriously, does anyone know what is the other Mac magic that
is needed ?   Somehow I can't believe that those disks are Mac (or IBM)
platform specific, some other "layer" maybe ? 


re .6	Congrats, I'm envious  -  and I'd be curious to know what 
happens if you try a disk NOT specifically for Amigas.

	Reg	{believing that its cost effective JUST for the Fish disks}

    
    	I have played with a disk that was an "IBM" CDROM. All these disks
    are written to the ISO 9660 standard. This is the same format CDTV
    ( baby ) is using.
    	You can move around the directories but the data is binary that
    the AMIGA can't use. I found some text files that are readable.
    I do know that some disks contain the C source code for the programs
    needed to access the data. Other disks contain a description of the
    data format so you can write your own programs.
    	I got the disk because I'm the librarian for the Worcester Amiga
    club. It is cheaper than 400 floppies, takes less space, and is simpler
    than 400 floppies. We maybe puting it up on our BBS.
    
    			Steve Peters
    

    re: last couple replies
    
    Believe it or not, Jerry Pournelle has something relevant to say on
    this subject.  If you read his column in _Byte_, you'll know that he
    loves to play around with CD-ROMs.  He has reviewed several discs that
    contain both IBM and Macintosh software that works with the same data
    files on the disk.  What he _doesn't_ like is the fact that every
    application has a different data file format and different application
    software.  The user interface is wildly different from package to
    package.  Some packages make dumb assumptions about his hardware
    configuration.
    
    On the other hand, these days it seems, from reading the press, that
    any serious Mac or MS-DOS developer has a disc full of documentation. 
    Imagine all the Commodore ROM Kernel Manuals plus examples plus OS
    "Autodocs" on-line. :-)
    
    IMO, we're a couple of years behind those Other Brands, but by next
    year there will be CD-ROMs available with three sets of applications,
    not just two.
    
    Wes

Re: .9

>    Imagine all the Commodore ROM Kernel Manuals plus examples plus OS
>    "Autodocs" on-line. :-)

Well, the manuals themselves are not on line, but the autodocs and
examples have been online for a long time.  It's called the "Native
Developer's Kit," and is available from Commodore to anyone who wants
it for about $20.

The AmigaDOS 1.2 native developer's kit even came complete with a
demo version of InfoMinder, a very early hypertext program for the
Amiga.  InfoMinder came out about a year or two before HyperCard
on the Mac, and was so doomed to obscurity because no one know
what to do with such a program.

(To be honest though, the lack of certain features in InfoMinder prevents
it from reaching its potential.)

Anyway, I've had online all of the stuff from the Autodocs volume of
the ROM Kernel Manual for three or four years.  Since I also bought
the last copy of InfoMinder that Go-Amiga had, I've also been able
to browse the autodocs easily, simply by selecting menu items.

    I just ordered the CDROM-FS and the Fred Fish collection disk from
    Hypermedia.  When ordered together, the file system is 39.95 (that's
    89.95 for the file system and the fish rom), offer good 'till 4/15/91.
    
    John

>    I just ordered the CDROM-FS and the Fred Fish collection disk from
>    Hypermedia.  When ordered together, the file system is 39.95 (that's
>    89.95 for the file system and the fish rom), offer good 'till 4/15/91.


I ordered just the CDROM-FS - put the cash into a 12 volume set of NASA
data from the Voyager I & II missions - over 25,000 images! The set
is sitting in the Nashua Post Office waiting for me on Monday :-)

Now that we all are getting into CDROM, wee need to find a cheap source of
applications. I recently received a catalog from some distributor that had
some rather shocking prices - hundreds of dollars for things like encyclopedia's
and dictionaries (they have the whole Oxford English dictionary!).

Where can we find good, cheap applications? I would think a dictionary
shouldn't be much more than $40 or $50...

john

> I ordered just the CDROM-FS - put the cash into a 12 volume set of NASA
> data from the Voyager I & II missions - over 25,000 images! The set
> is sitting in the Nashua Post Office waiting for me on Monday :-)

John, considering the location of this note, I assume that the NASA data
is on CDROM. Could you tell us more about it? Especially where you got
it and how much it cost.

Thanks,
Gail

>        <<< Note 4566.13 by LAGER::SANDERS "Details, MINOR details..." >>>
>                                 -< NASA info? >-
> 
> > I ordered just the CDROM-FS - put the cash into a 12 volume set of NASA
> > data from the Voyager I & II missions - over 25,000 images! The set
> > is sitting in the Nashua Post Office waiting for me on Monday :-)
> 
> John, considering the location of this note, I assume that the NASA data
> is on CDROM. Could you tell us more about it? Especially where you got
> it and how much it cost.
> 
> Thanks,
> Gail
> 

Yes, it's on CDROM - 12 volumes! The first 8 cover Earth to Saturn, the
other 4 cover Uranus and Neptune. Each CD has tons of images which are
each 800x800x256 gray scale (raw, unprocessed images straight from the
Voyager cameras!). Each CD also contains scaled "browse" images which are
1/16 the size of each image on the CD for a quick look.

The package comes with 2 programs (of which the latest versions are maintained
on an internet FTP site at NASA). One will simply display the images, the
other allows you to do NASA style image processing. They run on a PC but
source is included in (gasp!) Fortran.

The 12 volume set cost $88.50 (includes P&H). I'll dig up the letter. You can
order by phone or over the Internet.

I went to the post office this morning to discover the package was just another
book in my Scientific American Library series ("The Science of Words"). Oh
well. I expect the CD's this week.

Since this stuff is from the government, we (the public) own it so I don't
think putting together an AmigaVision demo of some of the stuff I find 
on the CD's and posting it to the net would be illegal, right?


here is the info from NASA:


Article 108 of alt.cd-rom:
From: [email protected] (Ron Baalke)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Voyager CD-ROMs
Reply-To: Ron Baalke <[email protected]>


     I've received a number of inquiries about the Voyager images available
on CD-ROMs.  There are eight CD-ROMs that contain about 16,000 images taken
by Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 on their encounters with Jupiter, Saturn and
Uranus.  The CD-ROMs are available to the general public at the NSSDC
(National Space Science Data Center) at the Goddard Space Flight Center.
There is a charge of about $75 for the 8 CD-ROM set, and NASA employees
get a discount.  You can contact the NSSDC at:

        National Space Science Data Center
        Request Coordination Office
        Goddard Space Flight Center
        Code 633
        Greenbelt, MD  20771

        Telephone: (301) 286-6695

        Email address:   [email protected]

     The images are stored in compressed format on the CD-ROM with each
image being about 220K.  A decompression program, called PCDCOMP, and an
image display program that runs on an IBM PC computer, call IMDISP, are
included with the CD-ROMs.  The most recent versions of the PCDCOMP
(version 2.0) and IMDISP (version 5.6) programs can also be obtained via
anonymous ftp at ames.arc.nasa.gov site under the filename imdisp56.zip in the
pub/SPACE/IMDISP directory.  When the images are uncompressed, they will be
about 670K in size, so a large hard disk is recommended.  For each compressed
image there is a corresponding "browse" image, which is a scaled down version
of the original image (1/16 size) which can be viewed directly off the CD-ROM.
All of the images are the raw, unprocessed images taken by the Voyager
spacecraft.  All of the images are monochrome images since Voyager carried a
black-and-white camera.  All of the color images you've might of seen on
the news and in magazines were images created by the Image Processing
Lab at JPL; there are no color images on the CD-ROMs.  However, the IMDISP
program mentioned before gives you the capability to perform some image
processing functions on the images, as well as applying color palettes
to the images.

     A set of four CD-ROMs containing the Neptune images taken by Voyager 2
is due to be released at the end of February 1991, and these CD-ROMs will also
be available at NSSDC.
      ___    _____     ___
     /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|      Ron Baalke         | [email protected]
     | | | |  __ \ /| | | |      Jet Propulsion Lab |
  ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |___   M/S 301-355        | It's 10PM, do you know
 /___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /|  Pasadena, CA 91109 | where your spacecraft is?
 |_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                      | We do!

I went home at lunch and found 2 of the 12 volumes there. The rest are on
backorder :-( (See what happens when info like this gets posted to Usenet!)

I received volumes 9 and 12 - both of Neptune. After very quick look 
I found that they seem to work fine with the CDROM-FS filesystem from
Hypermedia Concepts Inc. 

They included decompression and label formatting sw in Fortran and C!

Included was a list of other CDROM stuff from NASA - I'll summarize and post
later.

more later...

john

    I just received the CDROM-FS and Fred Fish CD and I haven't been able
    to install it; maybe I'm getting old or something...
    
    Can someone (like Steve Peters) help?
    
    1. do I need a mountlist entry for the drive?
    
    2. is the driver the "ROM" file from the distribution devs: directory?
    
    Was there hardcopy installation documentation in your kit?
    
    
    How about a step-by-step for idiots like me?
    
    
    I have an A2090 on my 2000 and a Sony 540 CDROM drive.  Right now the
    CD SCSI id is set for 3, no parity.
    
    Thanks very much,
    
    John

You need 3 file's (If memeory serves me) from the distribution floppy:


	DEVS:ROM			mountlist
	L:CDROM-FS			the actual file system
	LIBS:SCSIDIRECT.LIBRARY		library to access scsi direct stuff


Move these files to your working environment (hard disk?).

Edit the DEVS:ROM file. This file has a ton of example mountlist entries.
See if there is an entry for the 2090 controller. If yes, modify the
Unit number in that list to reflect your SCSI ID remember that the A2090
has a weird numbering scheme - something like unit 2 is SCSI id 0, unit 3 
is SCSI id 1 etc.). If there is not a 2090 entry, then just use the NEC:
entry (first in the list) and modify the Unit as above and the Device
line to say HDDISK.DEVICE (2090's device name). If you like, you can change 
the NEC name (or whatever entry you used) to someting more meaningfull - 
I called mine CD0:

Now you should be able to type  

	mount cd0: from devs:rom

You can merge the ROM file (better yet just the entry you used) into your
master DEVS:MOUNTLIST file to you don't have to use the FROM keyword on the
mount command. I usually keep non-commodore devices in thier own file 
(like DEVS:TAPE.ML, DEVS:CDROM.ML etc)



		***	SOME IMPORTANT NOTES: 	***


	1. You will need to use the mount command supplied on the
		distribution disk. I copied it to my C: directory
		and named it CDMOUNT. Then you type CDMOUNT CD0: etc..

	2. I found that you must have a DATA CD in the drive when you
		mount the device -your mileage may vary

	3. This filesystem does not yet support Interleaved files
		or Extended Attribute Blocks.

	4. The A2090 has bugs in it's SCSIDIRECT implementation which
		may prevent this [CDROM-FS] from working...


# 3 is important. I found this out the hard way with the NASA Voyager
CDROM's. The symptoms of a CDROM recorded in interleave format is
that files will be truncated at the end (you will not get the whole file)
and the beginning will have some junk.  

I could go into the details of how ISO 9660 works to explain why this
happens, but only if you really want to know :-)

I am working with the CDROM-FS developer (Andy in Canada) to fix this.

    Do the nessacary files come with the Fish disk or the rom drive?
    I have a chance to buy a CD-Rom drive for $50, will any scsi rom drive
    work?
    								Ed
    

    Great, thanks John.  Can't wait to try it tonight.  Does anyone have a
    CD working with a 2090?  
    
    Regards,
    
    John

>                       <<< Note 4566.19 by KALI::VISSER >>>
>                                   -< thanks >-
> 
>     Great, thanks John.  Can't wait to try it tonight.  Does anyone have a
>     CD working with a 2090?  
>     

Another thing to keep in mind is that CDROM-FS requires the block size
(a SCSI thing) to be 2048 bytes, whereas the default for other devices 
is 512 bytes. The GVP required new microcode to account for this...

john

    
    
    John,
    
    	My GVP did not require new ROMS. SCSI Direct can handle the 2K
    block.
    
    re .19
    
    	The CDROM-FS is a separate package that is required to access
    CDROMS. This doesn't come with the disk or controller. But
    Hypermedia Concepts ( they sell the FISH CDROM ) has a package
    deal ( the CDROM-FS and FISH CDROM ). I don't remember the price.
    
    		Steve
    

    What disk libraries can be used with the cd-fs?  Do they give
    you a specification or do you have use trial and error?
    
    md

>                      <<< Note 4566.21 by ELWOOD::PETERS >>>
> 
>     
>     
>     John,
>     
>     	My GVP did not require new ROMS. SCSI Direct can handle the 2K
>     block.
>     
>     re .19
>     

I think that's because you have the latest shipping roms (3.07). I spoke with
Ralph Babel (the guy in the uk who writes the gvp microcode) and he said
you definetly need this or later versions.

I also had a very long and interesting conversation with the developer of
the CDROM-FS last night. There is a new version of the FS (0.670) which
provides some bug fixes and better support for the Sony CDROM series - even 
an audio player.

There will be a newer version soon which better deals with Interleave and 
Extended Attribute Records for the NASA Voyager disk set and others.

john

CDROM-FS supports the ISO 9660 (minus Interleave recording and extended
attribute records) and the High Seirra CDROM formats.

john

    I have been unsuccesful in getting CDROM-FS to work with either my
    A2090 or my C Ltd. w/ SCSI DOS 3.0.  The Commodore board causes a
    system "livelock," the C Ltd. system just can't find the "object."  The
    C Ltd. utilities that go directly to the SCSI bus _do_ find the drive,
    and seeming can read blocks w/o errors.
    
    Has anyone gotten the C Ltd. controller to work w/ CDROM-FS?
    
    I'll upload my configs, etc., later today.
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

>     I have been unsuccesful in getting CDROM-FS to work with either my
>     A2090 or my C Ltd. w/ SCSI DOS 3.0.  The Commodore board causes a

Oh yeah, I asked the developer if CDROM-FS will work with the 2090 or
2090a, he said "not a chance".

I doubt the CLTD will work either since they had their own version of SCSI
Direct which probable never got updated to the released version Commodore
blessed.

john

    Yea, I guess you are right John.  I just spoke to Rick Estes at
    Micro-Dyn, the company that now owns C-Ltd./Kronos, and though he
    wasn't aware of Hypermedia, he did say they (he?) wouldn't be updating
    the C Ltd. 2000 controller software, and he wouldn't release the
    handler sources so that someone else could fix it.  I asked him about
    open systems and he laughed...
    
    Oh well,
    
    John

     I recently purchased a CDRom reader, it's a Sony Haystack III
    (whatever that signifies). A question came up recently as to wether
    this drive is really SCSI.
     Does anyone have more info on this particular device?
     It was only $50 bucks at a salvage store but didn't come with any
    manual.
    							Ed
    

    I got CDROM-FS working w/ a Sony CDU-541 drive and the GVP controller. 
    Took a while.  Contrary to GVP docs for drives using FFS or OFS,
    mountlist Unit number must be the scsi id exactly, not scsi id +1. 
    CDROM-FS won't work w/ C Ltd. or A2090.
    
    Changing CDs doesn't seem to work.. When I do it, I lose the Workbench
    and the system live-locks.  Anyone else?
    
    John

Re: .29

>    Changing CDs doesn't seem to work.. When I do it, I lose the Workbench
>    and the system live-locks.  Anyone else?

Does doing a diskchange command before trying to access the new disk
have any effect?

In any case, it sounds like the CD-ROM filesystem should try and
perform a little validation the directory blocks before believing
them.

    
    
    	CDROM disk changing works on my system. I have a old GVP controller
    with new fastroms.
    
    		Steve P.
    

    re.: .30, .31
    
    Randy, Steve, et. al.,
    
    	I tried the diskchange command to no avail.  Steve, I believe I
    have the same set-up: "old" GVP controller with FastRom v 3.07.  When I
    remove the CD the disk icon disappears, as it should.  Everything works
    O.K. so far.  When I insert the _same_ cd, the workbench goes
    brain-dead, i.e., you can't open or drag other disk icons, the cd disk
    icon doesn't re-apear, and the cli is dead. 
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

>                      <<< Note 4566.32 by KALVIN::VISSER >>>
>                              -< disk swap, no joy >-
> 
>     re.: .30, .31
>     
>     Randy, Steve, et. al.,
>     
>     	I tried the diskchange command to no avail.  Steve, I believe I
>     have the same set-up: "old" GVP controller with FastRom v 3.07.  When I
>     remove the CD the disk icon disappears, as it should.  Everything works
>     O.K. so far.  When I insert the _same_ cd, the workbench goes
>     brain-dead, i.e., you can't open or drag other disk icons, the cd disk
>     icon doesn't re-apear, and the cli is dead. 
>     
>     Any ideas?
>     
>     Thanks,
>     
>     John
> 

There are known problems with the SONY CDROM in CDROM-FS which the developer
has already fixed.  Version 0.668 was the problem version, he has released
version 0.670 to Hypermedia Concepts. This one even has an Audio player 
for the SONY drives!

HyperMedia may not have it yet...

john

    Oh well,...
    
    	got v 0.670, same problem w/ diskchanging.  Workbench "goes away." 
    Is there a newer GVP rom than 3.07?  A newer CDROM-FS than 0.670?
    
    Help!
    
    JV

Latest GVP ROM is 3.14, but I'm not sure it's out yet 
(I beta tested it for GVP).

Latest version of CDROM-FS is 0.701 (I think).

john

My latest version of CDROM-FS is 0.702.

	Thorsten

    I appreciate all of the help wth this.
    
    I still have ths funny problem with diskchanging w/ the cd rom.  I have
    recently tried many things, on eof which helped a tiny little bit,
    sometimes, which was to run "GVPScsiCtrl <unit number> dcoff" and then
    mount the devce, both before LoadWB.  This resulted in allowing the
    dskchange to happen about once in 20 times.
    
    I have a removeable media hard drive for which diskchanging works
    flawlessly w/ FFS.
    
    I tried the CD rom drive w/ FFS and though I couldn't read the disk (as
    expected), the diskchanging worked fine (no icon, but "info cd0:"
    showed that there was an unreadable disk or no disk correctly).
    
    I think its CDROM_FS.  I found a document on the dist. disk explaining
    how they (he) did there own polling for disk presence, and I think
    there must be a timing problem or something w/ my Sony drive.
    
    Comments?
    
    Also, anyone have a number for GVP?
    
    Thanks,
    
    John

    I have talked to the guy that develops the CDROM-FS about this and 
    other problems. He says that the disk change problem is GVP's problem,
    although I have the same diskchange problem with my ICD controller and
    the ICD people said they do support diskchange. I beleive the CDROM-FS
    guy is doing some changes in that area.
    
    I had to write a patch to the ICD driver to get the CDROM-FS stuff
    to work at all. I know he is planning a new version to solve this 
    problem that I found (after much pressure on my part).
    
    /Steve.
    
    

I battled long and hard with Alan (CDROM-FS) and Ralph (GVP SCSI drivers)
about whose problem it is. I finally agreed with Ralph, he seemed to be
advocating the "O/S Supported method" and his method requires much less
bandwith waste on the SCSI bus.