Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    
    Have a look at the latest Amiga World. There is an ad for a device
    called ATOnce. It is a small module that attaches itself to the 68000
    in the A2000 or A500 and gives the Amiga full AT compatibility. It
    allows the use of the Amiga serial, parallel, floppies and hard drives
    to be used as PC devices. All for $398 (MSL).
    
    It multitasks and uses Amiga memory (anything over 1 Meg can be
    configured for either Expanded or Extended). The picture in the add
    showed a Workbench window with a Window's 3.0 window inside.
    
    I have called around but cannot find anyone that handles it yet. I will
    probably pick one up when I can find it. Seems a good way to go to get
    a cheap PC for the times you need it.
    
    If anyone has seen one of these, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
    
    		Clint

    re .1
    
    Thats $398.00 plus a copy of MS-DOS they do not provide it with the
    board.  That should add $50-$60 to the price.  Still good tho.
    
   

    I would be careful of taking magazine ads too seriously.  It's very
    easy to advertise a product that isn't ready yet, in order to get
    funding to develop it based on response from potential customers.
    The specifications in the ad may be a marketing person's dream rather
    than an achievable product.  If you express enough interest in the
    product they may offer you a job---developing it!
        John Sauter

    
    
    It is a rather impressive ad .. a whole page in Amiga World is not
    cheap. The catch is that it is a German company and the only way to
    contact them is via Compuserve at 100016,2545. No indication if it is
    compatible with an A2620 board though.

    I also am looking for a (replacement) bridgeboard; and think I'd
    still take one over these new products. The Bridgeboard comes with
    the floppy drive, MSDOS, and intra-system file transfer software.

    Re: .3

>    I would be careful of taking magazine ads too seriously.  It's very
>    easy to advertise a product that isn't ready yet, in order to get
>    funding to develop it based on response from potential customers.
>    The specifications in the ad may be a marketing person's dream rather
>    than an achievable product.  If you express enough interest in the
>    product they may offer you a job---developing it!

    A call to The Memory Location this afternoon indicated that they were
    expecting delivery of ATOnce boards sometime late next week from their
    distributor; TML price not yet set.

    -Dom

Just a word of caution -- which bridgeboard you get depends on what you need
to do.  The A2080 XT bridgeboard DOES give you I*M compatibility, but it is
somewhat brain-damaged.  For starters, you only have an 8088 running at 4.77Mhz.
Second, in order to fit everything on the card, you only have 512K of memory.
Third, unless you put in some type of graphics card behind the bridgeboard,
you are relying on the Amiga's custom processors to generate the display for
you.

So, what's the problem(s) you ask?

1.  4.77 Mhz is incredibly slow; just slightly more than half the speed of
    a stock Amiga.  I occasionally find myself apalled by how slow the Amiga
    is (although I thought it was incredibly fast 4 years ago when I got
    my 1000).
2.  Many I*M applications go out and look to see what you've got in the way
    of memory right up front.  I bought an ADA compiler for the PC side which
    I found, to my chagrin, would not even compile a 10-line "Hello World"
    program because it expected 640K.  I have looked into getting expansion
    memory for the PC side (there is no room on the brigeboard itself), but
    my dealer says that he has not been able to successfully accomplish this.
    He is currently checking with Commodore to find out what can be done but
    no success as of yet.  (I suppose I could get adventurous and try adding
    some additional memory on top of the existing chips, but I am a software
    person and I'm not that talented with a soldering iron.)
3.  The display is not that bad, but it is slow.  Actually, it's not too bad
    considering that you have to go from the 8088 to the Amiga's graphics
    chips and then back across the bus to tell the 8088 that everything was
    handled.  Not very efficient.  Also, the display is (comparitively) grainy
    when matched against a PC with a VGA or better.
4.  It is not that difficult to crash the system.  Now when I say "the system"
    I mean one or more processors.  Sometimes PC operations will simply hoze
    the PC, and a CTRL-ALT-DEL will get you out of the weeds.  The warm reboot
    is appalling slow because we have to let the 68000 know what's going on
    at every step of the way.  Sometimes, though, the PC gets so hozed up
    that it takes the 68000 with it, and you have to CTRL-A-A to warm reboot
    BOTH processors.
5.  Peripheral sharing is possible, but tricky.  The V2.0 Janus software will
    allow you to use an Amiga disk for I*M files or an I*M disk for Amiga
    files, but unless you do everything absolutely correct, you can trash
    the hard disk.  (I got around this after some very frustrating experiments,
    by getting a second hard drive -- I have a 45Mb Miniscribe ST506-type
    drive behind the bridgeboard with all of my PC files and a 40Mb Quantum
    drive on the Amiga side. You can share the mouse or the printer between 
    processors, but only one processor can access the device at a time.  As long as you
    are aware of which processor owns the device and don't make a request for
    that device, you are all right.  Otherwise, GURU city.  Often, I would
    start some program chugging on the PC side and allocate the printer to
    it because I needed to make hard copies of the output.  Because the PC
    is so bloody slow, though, I would often shove the PC window in the back-
    ground and do something more interesting on the Amiga.  As soon as I tried
    to send something to PRT: or PAR:, though, the entire system crashed.
6.  The A2080 comes with a 360K 5.25 inch floppy drive.  It's slow and it
    doesn't hold much data.  Generally, the only thing I use it for is to
    do backups of the PC hard drive.  Fortunately, I don't have that drive
    completely full, but I go through about 50 floppies to back everything
    up.  I could get an external 3.5 inch Amiga drive which will plug into
    the port on the bridgeboard, but this still only gets me 720K per volume.

Sounds like I am down on the bridgeboard, doesn't it?  Not really.  I had to
have I*M compatibility for some school projects, and the bridgeboard provided
that for the most part.  It IS nice having everything inside one box, rather
than trying to make room for a second computer.  The file transfer utilities
work fairly well in both directions, and I have yet to run across a problem
with compatibility with any I*M application.  The major limitations have been
due to lack of memory and lack of speed.

The bottom line is that the bridgeboard DOES provide I*M functionality, but
it is clumsy (IMHO).  Additionally, it is expensive.  For not much more than
the price of the XT bridgeboard, you can buy a used stripped-down clone which
has the same (or better) capabilities without the hassles of a shared bus (but
you DO have to clear off some more space on your desk).  The AT bridgeboard
costs about 3 times as much, and the same arguments apply.  Either one is a
solution to the need for I*M compatibility; it's just not an elegant solution,
which is what I'm used to on the Amiga.

Dave

>1.  4.77 Mhz is incredibly slow; just slightly more than half the speed of
>    a stock Amiga.  I occasionally find myself apalled by how slow the Amiga
>    is (although I thought it was incredibly fast 4 years ago when I got
>    my 1000).
 
    You can gain a 10% to 30% improvement by going to a V20 replacement for
    the 8088. The're about $8 from Jameco (415) 592-8097. (The V20 takes
    fewer clock cycles to complete a given 8088 instruction).

>2.  Many I*M applications go out and look to see what you've got in the way
>    of memory right up front.  I bought an ADA compiler for the PC side which
>    I found, to my chagrin, would not even compile a 10-line "Hello World"
>    program because it expected 640K.  I have looked into getting expansion
>    memory for the PC side (there is no room on the brigeboard itself), but
>    my dealer says that he has not been able to successfully accomplish this.
>    He is currently checking with Commodore to find out what can be done but
>    no success as of yet.  (I suppose I could get adventurous and try adding
>    some additional memory on top of the existing chips, but I am a software
>    person and I'm not that talented with a soldering iron.)

     I've successfully used a Quadram expansion board that I picked up used
     for $20. It also comes with serial, parallel and game ports. Jameco
     sells a similar model for $70, and you can probably do better than
     that. (Try Unitech, or another local clone dealer...). I'm very
     surprised that your dealer couldn't accomplish this!

								Rob

    I to am in the need to expand my Bridgeboard memory.  The latest
    upgrade to my Tax program now requires more than 512K.  Also they just
    tweaked the keyboard entry and now it no longer runs on the Rainbow.  I
    am 9K short of getting the program loaded.  I have a choice getting
    MSdos 2.1 or adding memory.  Whats the chance of getting MSDOS 2.1 to
    work with Janus 2.0, even if I could find a copy?  
    
    So .8 could you be a little more explicite on the QuadRam is that the 
    module name or the manufacurer.  I looked over the latest version of 
    Computer shopper lots of low cost XT modules for up to 576K.   I
    actually have 12 256K X 1 chips left over from my Amiga 500 spirit
    insider upgrade.  Does the supplied Par port force you into swapping 
    printer cables that could get to be a pain for the little printing I do 
    on the XT side.  The serial port could be useful.  Maybe I could get 
    DECNET dos and NETwork the Rainbow together could be fun for a little 
    while.
    
    Also .7 the local Commodore supplier in the Springs told me the same thing.
    They have had trouble getting a memory upgrade to work with the 
    Bridgeboard compatibility problems.
    
    Any one else out there had any luck getting beyond the 512K barrier?
    
    
    Thanks for any ideas.
    Alan
    

>    So .8 could you be a little more explicite on the QuadRam is that the 
>    module name or the manufacurer.  I looked over the latest version of 
>    Computer shopper lots of low cost XT modules for up to 576K.   I
>    actually have 12 256K X 1 chips left over from my Amiga 500 spirit
>    insider upgrade.  Does the supplied Par port force you into swapping 
>    printer cables that could get to be a pain for the little printing I do 
>    on the XT side.  The serial port could be useful.  Maybe I could get 
>    DECNET dos and NETwork the Rainbow together could be fun for a little 
>    while.
    
     The manufacturer is QuadRam, and the board is called Six-Pack 
   (I think - I got it used, with *no* documentation.) You can still use
   the Amiga parallel port normally; the added port becomes the second
   parallel port (i.e. LPT2:). My board uses 64kx1 parts, which means
   that only two banks are needed to fill up the memory to 640k. I'm
   not sure if the low cost memory expansion modules you refer to would
   add memory beyond 640k. (Does DECnet DOS even work over a serial line??)

    Hope this helps!

							Rob

    Thanks Rob.  I will look for the Six Pack.  I do remember a lot of AST
    Six Pack mentioned.  I wonder what the Bridge board would do if I
    tried to bring it to 768K.  Would it ignore the rest or just not work. 
    I placed a want ad in the IBMPC notes file.  I'll see what response I
    get.
    
    
    DECNET DOS works with DDCMP on COM1: Phase IV end node.  DDCMP was real 
    popular before ETHERNET ever existed.
    
    
      

    But DECnet-Rainbow (The Rainbow specific variant of DECnet-DOS) was
    retired long ago.  It was Async DECnet (DDCMP) only.
    
    DECnet-DOS is now part of the "DECnet/PCSA Client for DOS V3.0"
    product.
    
    Given that the most you would get out of a Rainbow to Bridgeboard
    connection with DECnet would be nft and fal, kermit would make more
    sense.

    regards,
    dennis

    I know.  I was just babbling at the keyboard.  What is a serial port on 
    the Bridge Board good for?  ProComm is good but then you have got to
    move every thing back to the Amiga.    The PD Com programs for the Amiga 
    are more than good enough.  Think I will just stick with memory.  Is a 
    good tax program.  The program cost $30.00 looks like the hardware to make 
    it run is going to cost 2X - 3X.  I have not seen anything close to it for 
    the Amiga.  After my relocation taxes are going to be a pain.
    
    
    Alan
    
    
    

    I use TAX-Break in Canada, works great and it is available in the US
    too, but look for it unde the dataTAX name as they had to change the
    name because their US distributor (Oxxi) wasn't doing a good job at it
    and the TAX-Break name is licensed to Oxxi.
    
    Jean
    
    

    
    I also used TAX-Break last year.  There were some problems which
    eventually got resolved.   I plan to use it again this year.  I just
    received the update notice and the distribution and name has changed
    as described in .14.
    
    If anyone is interrested, it's called dataTAX.   Now being distributed
    by the developers.  I don't have their phone but the address is:
    
    Datamax Research Corp
    269 Portage Road
    Box 1147
    Lewiston NY  14092
    
    It's available for Amiga and IBM (either 5.25" or 3.5" media).  I don't
    know what the cost is if your not a previous owner but if you're a 
    TAX-Break owner the cost is $29.95ea for as many copies as you like.
    This offer is part of their "update a friend" policy.  US sales were
    not up to expectations last year and I believe they're offering it 
    cheap in the hopes you'll continue to update on a yearly basis. 
    I think it's a great deal at $29.95.
    
    I was not happy with cover letter that dataTAX sent out blaming OXXI for
    poor support.   TaxBreak had problems last year alright but I think
    OXXI did a fine job trying to support it.  From where I sit, Datamax
    gave OXXI a buggy product and OXXI did their best to support it.
    I don't think OXXI should be held responsible for  the fact that the
    Datamax software occasionally used the WRONG tax tables, or had the
    WRONG formulas for calculating certain line items, or gave the filler
    deductions he wasn't entitled to.   I blame DataMax!  (by the way, I'm
    no great fan of OXXI but I think think they did a pretty darn good
    job of supporting the product)  At one point, I doubted if I'd be able
    to get my taxes done with this tool but things got straightened out.
    I'm optamistic about using it this year.  
    
    It's WB 2.0 compatible and this year the new feature is electronic 
    filing.
    
    Frank
    

    O.K.  I have been told by two dealers in the Springs that they have
    been having problems upgrading the XT bridge board to 640K.  One
    offered to call CA and find out what they would recomend.  Nice of him,
    he also stated that a unpopulated module would cost $125.00 and memory
    would be $54.00.  I did not take him up on it since I had a $22.00
    memory module on order and 18 64K X 1 chips on order for $10.00.  Total
    of $37.41 counting shipping and took three working days.  
    
    I also sprung for the Bios upgrade for another $12.50.  This brings the 
    XT up to 3.6.1 380 788 - 06.  The dealer did not know the specifics on 
    what fixes were in the new rev Bios and I have not noticed anything
    wonderful.  I was at 3.4.2 
    
    
    The module I bought is from Resource Concepts Inc 1-800-962-7795 and
    the item is  XT 640K RAM upgrade for XT  part number P11-129.
    
    
    
    Alan
    
    
    for 

    Another note in the continuing saga of Bridge board upgrades.  
    
    I tried to install a V20.  The Bridge board fails self test.  Ram location 
    5A796 should be FFH is 53H.  Location 59720 should be 00H is 00H.  Also 
    the optional ROM fails its checksum with a 08H.  I replaced the onboard
    256K rams with some 120NS ones and the RAM test passed but the ROM
    still fails its checksum.  I tried the older ROM same result.  Putting
    the 8088 back in and everything is OK.  The only V20 I could find is a
    10MHz model, it should not have a problem running at a slow 4MHz.
    
    Also the Floppy failed to boot but with a ROM checksum no wonder.
    
    Alan
    

    
    what's the rom access time?  maybe the v20 rom access timing is
    different.   They could be copied into faster parts.
    
    John

    Got me, the part number is  MMC27CPI280 National Semiconductor Logo.  It 
    probably could be done and since I own the ROM (evan got a reciept) I 
    would not be doing any copyright infringement, if I only keep the copy for 
    myself.  This was done for the Rainbows a few years ago.  But I do not have
    access to the equipment to do the copying.  Besides who knows what
    other parts will be timing sensitive.  The first 256K of memory is
    soldered in it would take major surgery to replace them with faster
    chips.     
    
    The V20 checks out at X1.8 of a PC on my Rainbow.  It worked fine after 
    the initial timing failure for the floppy power up test.
    
    Alan
    

    >Besides who knows what other parts will be timing sensitive.  The
    >first 256K of memory is soldered in it would take major surgery to
    >replace them with faster chips.     
    
    I don't think faster ram chips will do anything; ram access timing is
    up to the dram controller.  
    
    John

    I seem to be having similar problems with my 2088 board. Unfortunately,
    I can't add any info to this other than to state that my
    original system config seemed ok (Rev 4.5 motherboard, SupraRAM
    2000 w/ 2 meg, fatter agnus, 2090A, ST-506 drives on the amiga and IBM
    sides), but my new config is having problems (Rev 6.2B motherboard,
    GVP Impact II controller, Quantum 105meg SCSI drive, 2meg memory
    in SIMMs).
    
    Hope this gets solved -- I've been thinking it was the board or
    PROMS (it's a VERY old XT board, has some wire ECC's on the underside).
    If I get a chance, I'll check to see if my checksum/memory
    address errors are the same numbers.
    
    Keith
    

    I am not having a problem normally.  I also have a rev 6.2 mother
    board.  It only got upset when I tried to replace the stock 8088 with a 
    V20.  I just got greedy and the V20 was only $6.35.  Oh well I got a 
    faster Rainbow now.
    
    Alan  

    Well, I went and did it -- I went to a local clone dealer and got a
    "Zuckerboard" along with enough 64Kx1 parts to bring the bridgeboard
    up to 640K.  I never tried before, because my Amiga dealer said that
    it couldn't be done.  He was wrong!  When I boot the PC, it shows
    640K.  Compilers and other programs that heretofore puked due to
    lack of memory now work with no problem.  Speed is still a problem --
    the bridgeboard is still a pig in terms of performance.
    
    Dave

    Do you think we should go back and let the dealers know they are all
    wet.  Or just forget it and chalk it up to another good reason to
    continue to use mail order.  
    
    

    In my particular case, I prefer to do business with the local merchant
    whenever possible, especially since his store is within walking
    distance (1 block).
      
    It could be a situation similar to network and cluster configurations; 
    it works, but it's not supported.  In other words, if it breaks, don't 
    call us and complain.  And the reason that expansion memory is "not
    supported" could be that C= hasn't had the time or inclination to test
    it out -- you have to draw the line for support somewhere.  In this
    particular case, though, I don't see where there is any problem.
    
    Dave

    The manual that comes with Janus Ver 2.0 clearly states that the
    Bridgeboard can utilize standard PC add on hardware.  The Amiga 2000
    manual also states the same.  The do not mention product names, that
    would take a manual in itsself.  
    
    I just get tired of going to a dealer and being told "I do not know 
    anvthing about the amiga".  So why should I pay them an extra 20%-30% 
    for their lack of expertise.  I can buy via mail order save money and 
    still not be shure if it will work until I recieve it and try it.
    
    Alan