Conference hydra::amiga_v1

One thing.  I thing the low end Amigas are still a terrific
value.  It's the high end Amigas, and lack of a vision
for the 90's by Commodrore which I feel endanger the attractiveness of
the machine in the higher price market.

    
    I have to agree that the lack of at least 8 bit color graphics for a
    machine of the Amiga 3000's caliber is almost inexcusable.
    
    Commodore _is_ working on new hardware-independant graphics libraries,
    but I have to wonder if there will even be any market share left by the
    time they get to 8 and 24 bit graphics...
    
    Good luck on your NeXT purchase.  In many ways, the NeXT is what the
    Amiga might have evolved into if Commodore hadn't neglected it for so
    long.
    
    Ed 
    

Re: .0

I do have to point out one thing:  Your dollar comparison is very
unrealistic.  No matter which computer you buy, or which company
you buy it from, or which standards the computer supports, you
will always do better if you put off making a purchase.

Thus, comparing 1985 Amiga to an 1990 NeXT doesn't say very much
about the cost effectiveness of the Amiga, but it does show a lot
about the progress of technology and the general decrease in prices.

Consider:  if you wanted to duplicate your Amiga 1000 with memory
and hard disk upgrades today, you could pretty easily do it for
half the price of the 1985 system.  Not only that, but the hard
disk hardware would probably 30% bigger, seek two to four times faster,
and you would have 20% more RAM.  Furthermore, the hardware wouldn't
be nearly as flaky, and except for the RAM, it would be shipped
from the factory pre-configured with the OS already on the hard disk.

The above is list price.  A fire-sale price, like for the NeXT, would
significantly drive the price down.

Buying a high end personal computer is an expensive hobby.  Maintaining
it with upgrades is even more expensive.  Failing to upgrade for
five years will at a minimum remove you from the mainstream for your
machine, and most likely cause you to lose all support.  For example,
I doubt you could find any program in a store today that would work
on an original Mac:  The original Mac wouldn't be able to read the
disks (the original Mac only had single sided drives), wouldn't be able to
fit the program in memory (the original Mac only had 128K), and
wouldn't have the needed OS upgrades.

I agree with you about the lack of direction that Commodore has shown:
Until the current president, I always had the idea that the guys at
the top thought, "We made a lot of money on the C64, if only we could
prop up that market..."

The big item improvements to the original Amiga have not yet come
about:  more colors, higher resolution, and a memory protected OS.
In fact, it appears before this year, very little has been done
to fix any of these problems except through patches: deinterlacer
boards, special purpose frame buffers, or a port of UNIX.  What
people really want is better integrated graphics and a version
of AmigaDOS that is protected.

The NeXT does address these problems, although at the price of
AmigaDOS compatibility :-).  And, of course, in another five years
the NeXT is going to look in retrospect pretty damn expensive
and inadequate :-).

    What OS does this system use. I know that they are running unix on the
    Amiga 3000's at UNH. This is along with Xwindows. I may be wrong but 
    you could most likely run all the missing software Dave likes on one
    of these systems. Of course some of us like,and can afford to be on the
    leading edge,and I think that is great. As for me it has to be the
    Amiga or nothing. I like what it does for me,and I can't afford the 
    same features on another system. Someday an 030 card would be nice.
    	As for unix If you have Dave's desires go for it, My feelings are
    it is where ms-dos was 10 years ago . Junk but popular because it is
    the only game in town.It will live a long and healthy life for sure 
    but I jsut can't believe something more elegant won't come along.
    	While Amigados is not that something it proved that you dont need
    4 megs,and a 100 meg drive to just wake up a multitasking system. Maybe
    some future form of unix will improve along these lines.
    								bill 

3., .4:

I'm not trying to compare or suggest Unix over Amiga/Intuition/Dos.

As for prices, it's comparing apples and shoes.  I was only reflecting
on the changes that 5 years has brought.  Again, I like my Amiga.

I was, on the other hand, trying to show that if you're looking
for what I'm looking for (Mips, Megs, and a more robust OS,
even if it's Unix), then you should consider the alternatives.
And that's why I listed prices and such.  Unfortunately, I 
doubt you can put together the software/hardware in the 
sizes I'm getting for 5295 for that price with Commodore
equipment, used, firesale, or other. (Negative assessment #1)

So I'm mostly presenting food for thought for high end system
buyers at this time, and commenting on my belief that Commodore
is fast slipping from having a leading edge product. (Negative assessment #2)

This isn't to say that people shouldn't buy Amigas.  I like
the machine too.   Really.  If you're going to spend less than 4k, buy one.
After all, I did :-)  

re: .3 - upgrades

Certainly I'm guilty of not upgrading.  On the other hand, upgrading
with CBM means buying a new machine.  Upgrading with PC's and NeXT means
plugging in a new board.  At least it doesn't render the rest of my system
useless.  This is why I didn't upgrade, and didn't believe the CBM upgrade
policy was as nice other people do.

Dave

[Who may actually have truly fried his Supra drive last night for the first
 time.  Suddenly its gone from flaky to "Not a DOS disk".  Rats rats rats.]

    
    FWIW - I just read in Computer Shopper that NeXT has sold an entire
    7,000 computers in a little over two years.
    
    I hope you're not going down another blind alley, Dave.  Are you sure
    you wouldn't like a nice Mac IIci?
    
    Ed.

    
    BTW, it's official...
    
    Commodore has shipped it's 2 Millionth Amiga.
    
    

Dave,

NeXT has a lot of innovative features as did the Amiga several years ago.
However, it is definitely more of a workstation than a home computer.
I know we want to drop that stigma, but hey I have my A3000 at home and
if it is a better home computer than so be it!  The great thing about the
Amiga is that is BOTH a great home computer and a moderately elegent system!

The Amiga has gads of low-cost software that you will probably never find
for the NeXT.  Not to say that this is a problem for you since you only
ever bought a few things (me neither).  You'll probably find a lot of PD
software for the NeXT which is UNIX related, but I doubt you'll find a great
deal of NeXT specific stuff.  Like you, I think, I use the system as a
learning experience as much as anything else.  In this regard, the NeXT
is probably a better system today.  The reason I bought the A3000 a few
months ago was that I don't think UNIX performs adequately on a 68030 box.
This is purely personal opinion, but once you've used RISC workstations
running UNIX, 68030 boxes just don't cut it.  I didn't feel the NeXT
was any exception.  I may break down and get Unix for my Amiga when it
becomes available, but right now I don't have any real reason to want it.

Price wise I think you've underestimated how much you will spend on
the NeXT though.  Just wait until you start having to upgrade some of
that system software and maybe purchase one or two software things.

good luck,

steve

> Certainly I'm guilty of not upgrading.  On the other hand, upgrading
> with CBM means buying a new machine.  Upgrading with PC's and NeXT means
> plugging in a new board.  At least it doesn't render the rest of my system
> useless.  This is why I didn't upgrade, and didn't believe the CBM upgrade
> policy was as nice other people do.

Very interesting point of view. I know a board level upgrade was not offered 
for the A1000 by commodore, but comparable trade-in's were. There were for 
computers that were designed for board level upgrades (A2000's). From 
reading Usenet news I gather that this is the case for the original next
cube - only I have not heard of a trade-in program. 

Your example with PC's often means replacing the motherboard. This is like
the classic "japanese transistor radio" repair story - replace all the insides!
This was also the case with A2000a to A2000b upgrades.

Other upgrades have been offered by both commodore and third parties. The
A2620 and A2630 as well as bridgeboards (though many may not think that a 
upgrade) have been offered by Commodore.

As for rendering the rest of your system useless, I do not understand. Your
external floppy still works, if you had a Microbotics Starboard they offered
an A2000 slot adapter which was reputed to work with other A1000 peripherials.
Microbotics also offered attractive upgrades and trade-in's on their A1000
peripherials. C-Ltd also did while they were in business. Finally, one of the
main reasons for not offering a board level upgrade is to move the userbase
to a platform DESIGNED to be upgraded - which the A1000 was definitely not.

Thus I feel your conclusion above is not well founded. It is my opinion that
Commodore has been exceptional in providing upgrade opprotunities in the 
most appropriate manner for the end user while not preventing Commodore
(in an undue manner) from improving the product by carrying forward burdensome
mistakes of the first cut at the product in the name of total compatibility.

	-SES

Re: .5

>Certainly I'm guilty of not upgrading.  On the other hand, upgrading
>with CBM means buying a new machine.  Upgrading with PC's and NeXT means
>plugging in a new board.

That reminds me of a BCS meeting where Max Toy (then president of
Commodore) spoke.

A complaint from the audience: "The Amiga 1000 to 2000 upgrade is too
expensive."

Max's reply:  "For $1000, Apple gives you a new board.  We give you a
new computer."

The disadvantage of the 1000 to 2000 upgrade was that in most cases,
you did lose the ability to use hard disk controllers and memory
boards designed for the 1000.

At least Commodore provided an upwards compatible expansion architecture
between the 2000 and 3000.

Okay gang, it's time for a pep-talk.

I've been an Amigan since the summer of 1986.  Not as old as some, but I do
remember cursing DOS 1.1, (and, yes, I had a copy of 1.0, but fortunately
didn't have to use it).  (It's hard to remember the old, fine-lined window
drag-bar, isn't it?)  I remember when games could be counted using one
hand. (I remember wetting my pants over Marble Madness. :-)

Remember the OLD demos?  The Robocity demo?  Remember standing with your
mouth hanging open over the bouncing boing ball?  And later, the Juggler?

I remember when we had to use Ed, because there warn't nuthin' better.
(Anyone used Edit lately?  :-)

I remember cursing TDI for their brain-dead Modula II compiler.  (I later
gave up and bought Manx C.)  I spent  most of my first 2 years as an Amigan
with only one floppy and with only 512K RAM.  It was rough, but I loved the
computer and would put up with anything.  (Even the frequent Guru visits.
:-(  )

In 1988 I parted with my beloved keyboard garage, and bought a new 2000.
Now I had 2 floppies and 1M.  Heaven!  The games were flowing by this time
and even though we often had a long wait for Amiga versions, I didn't mind
because I loved the computer.  DOS 1.2 was pretty stable and programmers
were starting to get the hang of programming it, so the Guru visits were
farther apart.  After about 6 months I bought a 40-something MB hard drive
and this time was truly in hog heaven. This was shortly before DOS 1.3 so I
was still running the OFS, but didn't care.  Eventually I added 2M of RAM
and the FFS to arrive at my present configuration.

But it seems that I'm at a cross-roads again.  And for the first time
I'm starting to think about going elsewhere for my computing enjoyment.
The MS-DOG computers I thumbed my nose at 4 years ago, are suddenly
sporting beautiful graphics, spritely microprocessors, mice, and even a
pretty (though admittedly somewhat brain damaged) graphical user interface.
I can no longer look distainfully at a PC-head and tell him/her that
the games s/he loves, look and play better on the Amiga.  256 color Super
VGA screens have begun to adorn the outsides of software boxes, and the
PC-heads have begun to extract their revenge.

I have always used my home computers for 3 things (in order of importance):

1) Playing games.  I freely admit to being an addict.
2) Telecommunicating.
3) Programming.

The MS-DOG machines allow one to do 1) and 2) quite nicely, thank you.  But
3) is the real bugaboo.  There's no arguing (especially among us Amigans)
that the Intuition/Exec combo is a lovely thing for programmers.  I'm
continually dazzled by their beauty.  MS-DOG has an array of wonderful, and
up-to-date compilers  (I admit to coveting Turbo C++ :-) but let's face it,
it's not a model of elegance for the programmer.

Therein lies my dilema.  The gamer part of me see the 256 color displays
and starts drooling.  (I currently covet a new 256 color golf game
called "Links.")  I'm sorry gang, but HAM just doesn't cut it for me. Too
fringey.

But then the programmer part of me harkens back to my experiences
with MS-DOS.  The ugly TSR's.  The ugly character-cell displays.  Its
single-tasking nature.  And I try to imagine life without being able to pop
from window to window (and screen to screen).  I have a hard time
believeing that Windows 3.0 can provide that sort of seemless task
switching.

So, I guess in all of this, I'd like to hear a word of encouragment.  Tell
me why I shouldn't just buy a 25Mhz 80386 system with a 1024x800 pixel VGA
monitor, and slip off into the faceless crowd of clone users?  You 3000
owners.  Tell me how much you paid for your systems.  I still have trade-up
ideas in the back of my head.  Can I get the 40M drive A3000 for under
$4000?  Would I be better off sending $1500 to Go-Amigo (I gave up on Able
ages ago) for a 28Mhz '030 board for my 2000?  (And still be stuck with my
vibrating 640x400x16 displays.  :-(  )

Is there a Xenix/X-Window combo that runs on the PC that could provide the
programmer part of me with the kind of programming enjoyment I've come to
expect from my Amiga?

Any thoughts for an aging Amigan who's growing tired of fighting the good
fight against the evil clone-makers?

Thanks,

-Gary

    

    
    Re: -.1

    Great note, Gary!  You've echoed many of my own sentiments, but I'll
    add a few more.

    Commodore has an engineering problem, plain and simple.  They just
    aren't willing or able to redesign critical parts of the Amiga
    architecture to keep abreast of (let alone ahead of) the competition. 
    I'm sure that they're trying, but that just isn't good enough.

    For example, as the world prepares to move to 2.88 MB floppy format,
    all I hear is that the Amiga can't even handle 1.44 MB format.  Sure,
    you can buy an AE HD floppy that's hacked into the system, but it's
    still a hack, and can't acheive the throughput of a genuine HD device.

    As IBM announces the XGA video standard (the successor to VGA), all I
    hear is that you'd "have to rewrite all the Amiga graphics libraries
    and redesign all the hardware" to get more colors, resolution, etc. 
    OK, then do it!  Not in 1996, dammit, but now!
                                                              
    If you're sick of hearing about 386 PCs with 97 MIPS, eleventy-skillion
    colors and 1,000,000 by 1,000,000 resolution for $995, then we can move
    to...

    ... Apple.  Everyone always has nice things to say about the Macintosh
    II line, right?  Gorgeous display with excellent system support for 8,
    24 and 32 bit color, and they even have digital stereo like Amiga!  But
    who on earth can afford them?

    Well, the street price of the new models places a color Mac within the
    grasp of everyone who may have been considering a new A3000.  Sure, the
    software is pricey, but it tends to do what you want, and you get to
    play elitist snob for a few more years.
                                                      
    As the Amiga nears the end of it's fifth year, it remains an enigma. 
    Never have such elegant software and hardware been integrated in
    a personal computer.  Yet it remains strangely unfullfilling to
    non-programmers.  What the Amiga has accomplished through cleverness,
    the competition has outdone through brute force.  For every genius
    trying to make the Amiga better, there are 50 geniuses trying to make
    the PC better and 10 geniuses trying to make the Macintosh better.

    I, too am approaching a computing crossroads.  Windows 3.0 is pretty,
    but beneath it's lovely fascade lies an abomination called MS-Dos.  VGA
    graphics are gorgeous, but the AT bus is ancient and slow, and
    compatibility problems abound.  The software I want is plentiful, but
    more expensive than what I'm used to.  256 color games are phenomenal,
    but I need a top end model to make them move smartly.

    If I buy a new Macintosh, I can once again sneer at the PC-heads for
    having superior, consistent system software, but for how long?  Will
    the Mac also be overrun by the PC hoards five years from now?  And what
    about (the lack of) games?  

    Sigh... I think it's up to Randy or <CB> to prop me up, because I'm
    losing faith.  Yet I'm _NOT_ going to jump ship today.  Maybe tomorrow,
    but not today.

    Ed.

re: .7-.-1

You all have great points about many thing.  Having spent
the entire weekend trying to salvage my dead Supra drive,
it game me the opportunity to see all the software I've
got that survived two O.S. upgrades and still works.

Ed, no doubt I'm looking for serious trouble buying a NeXT
machine.  If anything breaks after warrantee, I'm fried,
it'll cost a fortune, let alone if NeXT drops out of the
business.  Of course, when I bought *my* amiga, the same
concerns were strongly worth considering for CBM :-)

Still, I've got definite plans for my next computer.
(As opposed to NeXT computer).  I need Unix, I need all the
tools, and I need enough selection in languages to do what I
want to do.  CBM can't supply it for 5k yet, and PC clone
worlds running one of the 4-5 flavors of unix available
are all sort of "half baked" for 5k.  (Unix but no man pages,
unix but no X windows, low price but old unix, etc..., 
a shoppers nightmare).  I'm afraid Apple is left in the
dust though.  The new price announcements are better,
but Apple still has yet to get price/performance 
competetive.  This is why I'm going for the next.  I need
hardware *and* software.  Both Apple and PC clone unix
systems are better price-wise these days, but 5k will barely
get me the hardware and maybe unix.  (Maybe not even AUX for
apple!).  So I'm making due with what I can find.

I'm a sucker for dangerous platforms I guess.  But on a
budget, well, ... that's why we old Amigan's bought the
Amiga.  The right stuff at the right time.  We're definitely
not run of the mill shoppers.

re: Windows 3, etc..

Price/performance-wise - the high end 386's or low end 486's
through mail order (Dell, etc..) have some great deals
available.  OS/2, which we all know is nothing more than
a poor copy of intuition :-), isn't out of the question
as an okay multi tasking development platform of the future.
(particularly since I'm told it has memory protected tasks,
 something I truly miss on the Amiga and one of the major reasons
 I'm upgrading)
If I knew more about it, and had just a little less dislike
of Intel platforms, it might have been a stronger competitor
for this round of shopping.  

I just received an announcement Friday that DEC employee purchase
program is going to 70% discount on low end PC's.  Unfortunately
it doesn't cover 386 and 486 systems.  This confirms my suspicion
(and I'm only half joking here) that DEC doesn't want to make
any employee purchases attractive if it might help their engineers
who would really do development on the platforms.  The engineering
attractive machines in are never offered in the purchase program.
The current 386/33 offering, with 170 meg disk, 8 meg mem, tape drive,
monitor, vga card, lists for about 14k.  If we could get 70% off
on those it'd be very competetive.  (Not sure if the 14k includes
SCO unix or not). 

re: 68030 and Unix performance

Yeah, 68030's have trouble runing unix.  Even though the NeXT ships
with an FPU, it's still maybe 1/3 MFLOP and has a lot of pixels to
manage (unless the proprietary chips do so, I'm not up on the specs).
I'm fully planning on spending the 1500 for the board/OS upgrade.
The 68040 systems run about 15 mips, and 2 mflops.  That ought
to handle it :-)

Meanwhile, my NeXT purchase is proving to be as much as a
hassle as my Amiga purchase. I still haven't got it.
But if the NeXT machine follows in the Amiga's footsteps,
then I should get many years of good value from it.

Now to go recover all the software I lost since my last
backup in the fish archives :-)

Dave

Dave -

I've been doing this for nearly as long as you; I bought my first Amiga
in January of '86. After the A2000 upgrade, I was really P.O.'d at CBM; my
first large contract on the Amiga had just paid off, and I had $3000 worth
of hardware that wouldn't move without doubling the upgrade cost. At that
point, I really expected that my next main machine would be some form
of PC clone, just because of the price/performance ratio. Surprise - I
now own a 3000.

As to whether the 3000 or the NeXT is a better buy - this relates to a long
discussion I had with Dave Haynie. The Amiga and the NeXT suffer from a
"lack of choice" problem. If you try and buy a PC system that's hardware
equivalent to a 3000, you find that it's street price and the 3000 street
price are a few percent apart. That's because the 3000 is a "high-end" machine,
and an equivalent PC would be a 386 box with an upgrade path to 486/cache/etc,
5 32 bit EISA slots, capable of holding 16Meg of memory (not counting the
video ram), and a 32 bit DMA SCSI controller (or better), plus misc. serial
and parallel ports.

On the other hand, very few people actually need most of that. Give up all
the EISA slots and live with ISA; swap the 32 bit SCSI for ESDI or the ST
flavored controllers, and the price falls by a grand or more. And you can
buy configurations somewhere in betweeen the two.

All this relates to "what is equivalent". For example, a non-trivial portion
of that that 300 meg drive is full of Unix, as opposed to an Amiga system,
where you eat 6 Meg (standard partition for 2.0 on the A3000/25-50). How much
memory is "the same"? The A3000/25-50 is < $3000 through various discount
plans. I think the -100 is $500 more;  $500 for a monitor leaves $1000 to
buy more disk of whatever flavor you want. I can get what - to me - an
equivalent or better system in an Amiga than the NeXT. But my needs are
different from yours, so "equivalent" means something different.

If you need Unix, and want DSP and the hi-end graphics, then the NeXT is
the box for you. To me, Unix is a minus, I don't need the DSP, and my grahics
needs (presentation & video titling) are better met with the color &
animation capabilities of the Amiga than the NeXT.

	<mike

    
    All this gloom and doom over minor technical issues :-)
    
    Since the world seems to be going to standards, I expect CBM to stay
    competitive by offering me access to those new standards.  So far,
    they have had lots of trouble doing that with anything other than
    IFF.  And even with that, it took until 2.0 for them to add OS support
    for handling IFF.  But they have gotten better, and 2.0 shows it.
    Now if they would just finish the rest of it, like the device
    independent graphics, virtual memory, resource tracking, etc.
    
    That puts them at about the same level as the standards in the
    ibmpc market (weaker in some categories, better in others), 
    without all the cruft that market has to support for backwards 
    compatibility.
    
    And it sounds like they are trying to compete with marketing,
    educational discounts, etc.  But they don't have Steve Jobs or anybody
    of that prestige out promoting the 3000.  And hence, very few of the
    big name titles are being ported to the Amiga.  Maybe they need some
    high profile type person out there hyping the Amiga, giving lots of
    interviews, etc.  Hmmm... didn't they recently hire Nolan Bushnell
    for that :-)
    
    It seems to me that the NEXT is pioneering the future for personal
    workstations.  Look at how quickly the 3d look for icons caught on.
    Sounds like a great deal for a NEXT system if you are hunting in
    the personal workstation price range.  Software bundled with Hardware
    is a tough combination to beat if you are looking for a usable system
    at a great price.  Isn't that how they sell 500s in the UK and Europe?
    Maybe CBM needs to look at offering more than the OS and AmigaVision
    bundled with the A3000.
    
    Dave

    Now that all the guys with professional titles have spoken ;^),
    it's time for a word from the wrong side of the tracks. I'm definetely
    no expert, but I can't believe all the whining; and it's not coming
    from me!
    
    Re: .12

>    Commodore has an engineering problem, plain and simple.  They just
>    aren't willing or able to redesign critical parts of the Amiga
>    architecture to keep abreast of (let alone ahead of) the competition. 
>    I'm sure that they're trying, but that just isn't good enough.

    Hogwash! Perhaps I'm out of touch with what the rest of you folks call
    a "home" computer, but I'm thankful CBM hasn't turned over the hardware
    and OS like others have. Have you ever looked at the compatibilty
    charts for Mac's "System" in MACworld? Gak! Sure, someday you'll have
    to let go of compatibilty to advance, but look how much people (me
    too!) are pissing and moaning about letting go of their A1000's for the
    sake of how-soon-we-forget improvements such as 1Mb chip RAM and ECS?
    Well, perhaps the reasons aren't all compatibility, but remember, CBM
    hasn't had the best of financial times over the past few years.
    But chin-up! Remember, they've posted a profit last quarter and largely
    due to Amiga sales (yeah!); if only the economy would pick-up, the
    goodies from CBM would most likely pour out faster. Let's face it,
    things have never looked so bright for the Amiga. Look at all the new
    hardware and software available. Just compare the ads from a recent
    AmigaWorld to one of a year or two ago; night and day. And to boot,
    much of the new stuff is coming from Commodore. Dat be berry good news.

>    software is pricey, but it tends to do what you want, and you get to

    Sure, and that darn MultiFinder shure is swell...

>    play elitist snob for a few more years.

    Is that what is all about? No thanks, I'd rather be a humble non-
    conformist, snickering at those gear-brains in the big blue machine and
    the elitist snobs.
                                                      
>    a personal computer.  Yet it remains strangely unfullfilling to
>    non-programmers.  What the Amiga has accomplished through cleverness,
>    the competition has outdone through brute force.  For every genius
>    trying to make the Amiga better, there are 50 geniuses trying to make
>    the PC better and 10 geniuses trying to make the Macintosh better.

    I wouldn't call a "built-in" true multitasking OS (that runs in 512K) and
    custom hardware "cleverness"; and it has hardly been outdone. What you
    have to do is "outbuy" the Amiga. "Oh this PeeCee compatible software
    package? Sure, it'll run on your compatible, but you'll need to buy the
    EGA card and a new monitor, but you might as well wait for IBM to announce
    their latest 'standard', XYZGA, so you can do it all over again." I hope
    CBM doesn't resort to those tactics just to please those bigger and
    faster fanatics, at least in the home computer sector anyhow.

>    If I buy a new Macintosh, I can once again sneer at the PC-heads for
>    having superior, consistent system software, but for how long?  Will
>    the Mac also be overrun by the PC hoards five years from now?  And what
>    about (the lack of) games?  

    I never thought I would hear it put that way from you, Ed. I kinda wish
    you would buy one, just so you'd realize that the grass is always
    greener and sometimes wanting is not the same as having.

    Me? I'm still hoping the Amiga doesn't join the ranks of the "what's
    good for IBM is good for the rest of the *world*" or the likes of the
    over-priced, mega-marketing-hype MAC. Perhaps she'll quietly plod
    along, strong in several niches, slowly but surely growing in
    popularity, but never conforming to most peoples idea of "mainstream".

    Petey

                                                            
    I refuse to be an Amiga apologist.  
    
    The simple fact is that the competiton has undergone vast technical
    improvement over the past five years, wheras the Amiga has not.  CPU
    and buss speeds have improved on the high-end Amiga models, but glaring
    defects have gone uncorrected for half a decade.  Deinterlacing a
    defective hi-res display simply masks the real problem - insufficient
    memory bandwidth.  Display hackery like Dynamic Hi-Res is the result of
    a video architecture that can't be easily extended.
    
    I still think that the Amiga is a superb system, offering many features
    that the competition can't touch.  WB 2.0 looks like it will be a
    world-class GUI.  But being good just won't cut it in the nineties. 
    The Amiga has to be clearly superior in both price _and_ performance to
    survive the numerical and marketing odds that it faces.  I see no signs
    from Commodore that the Amiga will soon receive the basic redesign that
    it badly needs to beat up the nasty Clones.
    
    Here's my list of demands for an redesigned Amiga:
    
    	Full 32 bit wide custom chip set
    	Improved Paula chip for CD quality sound with 16 voices
    	Expanded color palette - 16.7 m
    	Support for industry standard 1.44 and 2.88 MB drives
    	Support for industry standard CD-ROM libraries
    	Support for larger displays, including custom screen support
    
    Frankly, I could have a top end 386 or Mac II this afternoon if I
    wanted one.  These systems are by no means ideal, otherwise I _would_
    have bought one by now.  The Amiga is still my favorite, hands down. 
    But a year or two from now, a jittery 640 x 400 display is going to be
    completely unacceptable to even the least discerning buyers...
    
    Ed.

    	Re: -1
    
      Bravo...
    
      I've seen these same concerns on Usenet.
      I'm no expert in the technical aspects of the machines, however I've
     been using a few different platforms of machines (mostly commodore).
      I don't need or want a Next as a home computer, and haven't ever
     used one.
      However, I've been using a 20Mhz 386 system at work, with VGA
    graphics, 3megs of memory a tape-backup and 80 meg hard-drive, 5.25
    drive and 3.5 drive.
      Also I've got a A500 with 2megs, 2drives (3.5) and an 80 meg hard
    drive at home.
      I truly believe the Amiga to be a better biult machine.
      It has productivity capabilities biult right in.
      The 386 is about the most inefficient machine I've ever had to use.
        The Amiga... If you want to multitask productivity software, just
    	             load the program.
    	The 386....  If you want to be able to run all your extra
                     peripherals (tape drive, hard disk, e-net cards)
    		     You struggle with Quarter-Deck for a month just so you 
                     can get 512k out of 640k base memory on a 3 meg
    		     machine so you can run your software (Harvard
                     Graphics).
          
    
         Graphics Power? 
         The 386...  Well I've seen some nice stills on a vga screen.
    		     Haven't seen the same quality in thier Animations
                     though. 
              
	The Amiga... I've seen both nice stills and animations.
    		     There is that # of color's limitation but that can be
    		     fixed buy buying a third party product.
                     (which, is what an IBM clone is made up of anyway).
                     Also, I've never ran out of colors on my Amiga anyway.
    
        So with the Amiga I can use a graphical interface, or the shell
    with ease, and with 2.0, it's getting even better.
        
        I really don't see a contest between the 2 machines.
      Would I trade my 500 for a 386? 
        Shure, so I could sell it and get a 2000 with all the trimmings!
    
        					My own Opinion
    						   
    				Ed "who doesn't want a Work Station
                                    for home or an I*M"        
       
        
    	 
                     

      Uh, that should read ... Re:-2
      Ed's typing was quicker on the reply than mine :')
    
    				The other Ed
    

    OK.  Here goes the opinion from the guy who was inside C= for many
    years.  I'm the formor MIS manager for the MIS division of C=.  The
    statement about C= (alias chicken lips) engineering is that every good
    product that they develped rarely hit the street and nearly every good
    product that hit the street they didn't develop.
    
    Lets look at the history :
    
    		PET Series :  Found in the back room of MOS Tech. (My
    			division) after commodore purchased MOS tech from
    			thro's of bankruptcy that Jack T. caused by not 
    			paying the bills that he owed MOS tech.  SuperPet
    			6809 Hack created by university guys that came to
    			commodore with it and then C= sold it.
    
    		VIC 20 : Engineers built this on weekends and were nearly
    			fired for spending time on useless junk until
    			figures out they could sell it.
    
    		C64 : Marriage of a VIC 20 with a reverse engineered Atari
    			800.  Jack T. was not going to let his formor
    			Partner, Atari (yes I said Partner, MOS Tech was
    			the sole supplier of ROM chips to Atari) to get the
    			better of him.
    
    		Plus-4 : Designed/Engineered/Marketed by C=.  Yuck!
    
    		B128/B256 : Never heard of these?  You missed a good thing
    			or maybe it was good you missed this thing!
    
    		Amiga : Purchased from the fingertips of Atari.  C= then
    			had to pay Atari over $10 Mill.  in out of court
    			settlements to keep it.  This is the money that 
    			Jack T. (now Atari owner)  used to buy the major 
    			C= distribution house.  (This is why you didn't get
    			your A1000 on time).  Incidently, designed by Jay
   			Miner who also designed the Atari 800.
    
    
    	The only decent engineering from C= that has been released has come
    from Germany.  Anything released from West Chester has bombed for the
    most part.   I saw (and touched and own) many C= machines that have
    never seen distribution.  They (the engineering staff's over the years)
    have really tried to come up with products that would later prove to be
    hot items, only to have the top man (Irving G. chairman) not allow the
    production of them.  One was a nice notebook size C64!!!!! IN 1984!!!
    Only problem was building the display cheap enough.  They never tried!
    Irving Gould is so old that he does not care what C= does 5 years from
    now.  The only interest he has is this quarter, this year.  If they
    make money this quarter, then the Pres. gets to stay.  If not, then he
    may be escorted out to a cab, like many others before.
    
    I do think that the Amiga was/is great hardware.   The problem has
    always been focus.  C= never could stop arguing on what was the right
    market.  We wanted to DECnet Amiga's in 1985 and use them as VAX
    Workstations for internal support.  "No.  That is not the market that
    we feel will bring us strategic market placement" was what I got in a
    letter from the "Pres" (I still have the letter).  What a shame.....
    
    
    

    
    Typo fix :  That was MOS division, now known as Commodore Semiconductor
    Systems.  

    Interesting...
    
    I've wondered about the Tramiel vs. Gould history.  As an 8bit Atari
    owner, I'd see all this stuff about what Jack T. was doing with/to
    the C64, Plus 4, etc.  But never heard anything about Gould until
    Jack left Commodore and later bought Atari.  And only because I went
    down to a BCS meeting that had him and Max Toy.  Did seem a little
    out of touch with market realities compared to Max.
    
    Of course, he is now more visible with the revolving door presidents
    and his salary.
    
    Dave
    

    re: .20
    
    Reminds me a lot of Digital!
        John Sauter

     <<< Note 4273.17 by LEDS::ACCIARDI "Probing the limits of adhesion" >>>

�        Full 32 bit wide custom chip set
        
         you'd be better off with multiple buses - 64 bit graphics bus,
         32-bit data bus.  no big deal, the Atari TT has this now.
        
�    	Improved Paula chip for CD quality sound with 16 voices

         this is a tough call.  I agree with the CD quality - 16-bit, but
         the digital spec's for CD call for up to 22-bits, besides the
         other consideration is you would get more out of adding a synth,
         like a Roland MT-32 up to a midi port.  one company - Sierra
         Online is a far ahead of everybody here, you would want to be
         compatible with them.
        
�    	Expanded color palette - 16.7 m

         careful, the cost for this may not be incremental and will drive
         the Amiga out of the home market.  remember IBM is going after
         that market now.
        
�    	Support for industry standard 1.44 and 2.88 MB drives
�    	Support for industry standard CD-ROM libraries

         why not just get this over with and go for a built-in scsi bus,
         that way it is just a matter of drivers, not hardware?
        
�    	Support for larger displays, including custom screen support

         one thing atari did was have gdos, which can do this now.  maybe
         Commodore should consider picking this up as it is being
         upgraded.
        
        concerning J. Trammiel - he and his ken, have been the worst
        thing to happen to either Commodore or Atari.  anything for a
        buck at the expense of customers, clients, contrators, suppliers
        and employees.
        
        as for sounding like DEC - we aren't as cold blooded as Jack T.,
        but we are getting there.
        
        Bob

    re:.-1
    
    a couple things:
    
    The Amiga has always had 2 buses, 3 if you want to count the pc
    bus on the 2xxx and 3xxx boxes.  The 3000 has a 32 bit ZorroIII bus,
    the problem is that the graphics chips/bus is still 16 bits.  Why
    a 64 bit bus instead of 32 on the TT?
    
    re: cost for low end
    That's why the high end box needs to have lots of slots.  The low
    end gets the reasonable base system and the high end gets 
    boards to enhance it up to a $10000 workstation.  Then as the
    price goes down, you move the popular options on to the motherboard
    to upgrade the base system configuration.
    
    re: Atari and Jack T.
    Atari was dying when Jack T. took over.  He extended the life for the
    8bit line a couple years by radically dropping the price.  And gave
    the company new life by coming out with the ST.  And added the saying
    "business is war" to the standards of how to do business.  That's why
    I still puzzled by what happened in the US market.  He turned the
    company around, got a lot of good press, forced CBM to drop prices
    on the A1000, etc.  Then they abandoned the US market for Europe.
    Very strange.
    
    Dave
    

Don't want to sound like a wet blanket guys, as this note
has been most interesting, but is the conversation getting
too urr, umm derogatory agaist certain individuals, companies
etc ?

We don't want Digital getting sued for slander etc do we ?

Mike
	(who doesn't live in the U.S.A and doesn't find some
	 of the legal things that happen in the States
	 very amusing.)

    
    There was a 'short take' in the latest BYTE about the A3000/UX with
    AT&T System 5 release 4.  The reviewer was unfamiliar with Amigas, but
    praised the price/performance of the A3000, claiming that it blew away
    similar platforms from Apple and NeXT.
    
    The total system cost, including 19" mono monitor and 100 MB SCSI drive
    was under $4000.  Even a 386 based system would be more than that.
    
    The reviewer also praised the excellent integration of the system,
    claiming that to duplicate the same on a 386 would require a real hodge
    podge of add-ons (not sure what this means).
    
    It was also mentioned that the graphics handling of a large display was
    superior to competitive systems.
    
    Ed

I'll be interested to see the full scoop on the A3000/UX.

The 'short take' only shows a competitive platform, not
a decidedly advantageous platform.  I say this after months
of shopping for "a unix platform", looking at PC's, Next mostly.
Apple wasn't price competitive for my system size, the Amiga/Next
both are doing better than Apple by my book.

However, and you notice these things especially if you have 
tried to put together a comprehensive graphics unix system on
a PC:

- To hell with the size, what's the *resolution* of the 19" 
  monitor?

- Does the unix system include man pages?  C compiler? Lex, Yacc?

- Does the unix system ship with X only? Or motif as well?

- How much of 100 megs is left for use when configured?

- Is it readily upgradeable to the 68040?

- How about memory upgrades?

- What other languages/products will run on it when it ships?
  (SYS V compatability is nice, but a product in hand is worth...)

I only point all this out because it was these questions which
(and their answers) drive me nuts in tyring to put together
a PC Clone Unix box.  The Unix software was all expensive, but
the boxes are cheaper.  But depending on which software you go
with, it may not even *have* graphics (like Coherent Unix),
or charge $300 for man pages (like Everex Esix), and so on.
You can get nickel and dimed a lot.

Still, sounds like C= is trying to remain competitive price-wise,
but there are a lot of unanswered questions for the avid unix
shopper.

Dave

     My recollections from the BYTE article:
     
                                            
     > - Does the unix system include man pages?  C compiler? Lex, Yacc?
     
     Full man pages, ATT & GNU compilers
     
     > - Does the unix system ship with X only? Or motif as well?
     
     Open look comes with it I think.
     
     > -Is it readily upgradeable to the 68040?
     
     Certainly the Usenet rumors and 3000 introduction imply easy 
     CPU upgrades.
     
     
     
     

    Re: .27
    
�    The total system cost, including 19" mono monitor and 100 MB SCSI drive
�    was under $4000.  Even a 386 based system would be more than that.

    Geez Ed, I thought you said them 386 systems could be had for $999 at
    K-Mart... ;^)

Howard Diamond (CBM educational program manager) recently (yesterday??)
posted to comp.sys.amiga that the 3000UX with 200Mb hard disk and
9Mb memory + $1950 would go for $4999.  I don't think he said whether
or not this included a tape drive.  I assume you have to be a student
or educational institute to get this price???

Somebody will probably post the note, but this is the gist of what I
remember FWIW.

-steve

    
   > Geez Ed, I thought you said them 386 systems could be had for $999 at
   > K-Mart... ;^)
    
    They can... I think getting the UN*X is the expensive part.  Last time
    I looked, SCO was over $1000.
    
    Ed.

    Seems like as good a place as any to ask this....
    
    Ed Acciardi.  Still looking in on us?  I've noticed your name in a few
    MS-DOS conferences recently.  I gather that you've had a few months to get
    familiar with your 386 and MS-Windows.  With your extensive background
    in Amiga use, you're well qualified to compare and contrast the two
    environments for us.  You have a 33MHz 386.  How does it perform next
    to a stock Amiga?  An accelerated one?  How about games?  How do they
    compare?
    
    Thinking about clearing some desk space next to his Amiga for a clone,
    -Gary

    I still have MS-DOS users drooling over my Amiga!

   > Ed Acciardi.  Still looking in on us?  

     Yes, still reading every note.

   > 		  You have a 33MHz 386.  How does it perform next
   > to a stock Amiga?  An accelerated one?  How about games?  How do they
   > compare?
   
    It's very hard to do a direct comparison between a PC running Windows, and
    an Amiga.  I am using a 16 color, 800 x 600 display on the PC, which
    updates fairly slowly even on a 33 MHz 386.  It's safe to say that any
    Amiga can blow it away in text scrolling.  On the PC, the display speed is
    as much a function of the video card and driver as anything else.  I have
    an unremarkable video card, but an NEC Graphics Engine has a coprocessor
    for Amiga-like updates.  To put it in better perspective, the PC seems a
    little slower than my VaxStation 3100, whereas my Amiga 2500 seemed a little
    faster.  In any case, a 33 MHx PC is simply very fast, much like my
    A2500 was very fast.  In terms of benchmarks, which are probably
    meaningless anyway, my PC rates a Norton SI of about 45, and my A2500
    had an SI if 16 or so.

    As far as the operating environment goes, I like Windows 3.0, but I think
    Workbench 2.0 on the Amiga will be better.  Windows is pretty strange
    compared to the Mac or Amiga, but I believe that legal considerations were
    largely responsible for this.  For one thing, no Windows applications
    generate the equivalent of 'project' icons.  You are forced to use the file
    requestor for everything.  And there are no representations of drives or
    directories on the Windows Desktop; you must use their 'File Manager' which
    is the world's absolute worst Directory Utility.  Amiga-like replacements
    are on the way.

    Good, bad, or indifferent, the Windows stuff is remarkably consistent.  Cut
    and paste is universally supported by a zillion different formats, and all
    of the requestors are provided by Windows.  Despite claims to the contrary,
    it sure looks like multitasking to me.  I can get multiple windows to
    scroll at the same time while spell checking a massive document.

    For mainstream applications, the big-name products (Word, Excel, Project)
    simply blow away anything on the Amiga.  There is no way to even compare
    the quality (or price) of the Windows stuff.  To it's credit, ProWrite 3.0
    on the Amiga has much of the functionality of Word.  If MicroSoft ever
    notices the Amiga, they may sue New Horizons :^).  Shareware and PD on
    the Amiga blows away the equivalent on the PC, but I do see some very
    interesting Windows shareware appearing.  I think that a lot of Mac
    programmers may be reluctantly going with the PC.  50 million people
    _can_ be wrong, but you sure can't argue with them.

    Games:  I have one entire game for the PC.  (Remember, I am too busy and/or
    broke to play games).  The game (Wing Commander) is the current top-rated
    PC game.  It's a Cinemaware like space flight combat/flight simulator. 
    It's good, even by Amiga standards.  The 320 x 200 x 256 color VGA graphics
    look good, but folks, you really don't need 256 colors in a game.  The
    scenes often look downright gaudy by trying to cram 256 colors where they
    are not needed.  I much prefer the suble tones of 'It Came From the
    Desert'.  And no matter how fast the PC gets, they just can't compete with
    the Amiga's hardware scrolling of super-bitmaps.  The Amiga just feels so
    much smoother.

    Hardware:  Believe it or not, I got a 33 MHz 386 with 4 MB RAM, 32 KByte
    Cache,(2) floppy drives, a 100 MB Quantum IDE hard drive, and a 1024 x 768
    Super VGA card for $2200.  That includes a 1 year, 100% parts/labor
    warantee.   Add in another $150 for a Microsoft mouse & Windows, and
    another $300 for the monitor, and you're in business for well under $2700.

    I can summarize by saying what I've been saying for a long time... if you
    need mainstream business applications, a fast PC with Windows is a good
    setup.  The workstation-size display is only a dream on the Amiga.  if the
    Amiga could get 1) some mainstream applications and 2) a modern display,
    I'd start saving my pennies again.

    Ed.                                                

    Re .34
    
    >I still have MS-DOS users drooling over my Amiga!
    
    Perhaps, but there's less and less to drool on at my house.  I have an
    unaccelerated 2000 with a slow HD, and a 5 year old Sony monitor with
    scan lines you can drive a truck between.  :-)  I bought the Sony
    for my 1000, and never bothered to replace it when the 2000 came along.
    I'm still running KS 1.2.  My SCSI controller is old, slow and
    non-autobooting.  KS 2.0 + ECS will not be cheap.  I figure $150-$200
    without installation.  
    
    To speed up my little pup would set me back about $1500 (new HD
    controller included in the deal).  To buy a good multiscan monitor
    would cost another $500-$600.  (Don't think I can use VGA monitor, can
    I?)  Add in $200 for 2.0.  Assuming that I could get by with my
    *S*L*O*W* 48M drive, that's $2300 just for an upgrade.  And I'm still
    looking at vibrating hires displays, except in certain modes.
    
    For $600 or $700 more I can have a whole new computer, and the best of
    both worlds.  Such a dilemma.
    
    
    Re .35
    
    Thanks for your input, Ed.
    
    >It's very hard to do a direct comparison between a PC running Windows, and
    >an Amiga.  
    
    You did a fine job.
    
    >I am using a 16 color, 800 x 600 display on the PC, which updates
    >fairly slowly even on a 33 MHz 386.  It's safe to say that any Amiga
    >can blow it away in text scrolling.  
    
    I must admit that a lot of my the fascination with VGA and SVGA PC's is
    in the workstation-like desktop that MS-Windows and the appropriate
    driver software can provide.  A little jerkiness on scrolling might be 
    worth it to me.  (Though Ami sure has spoiled us.)
    
    
    >As far as the operating environment goes, I like Windows 3.0, but I think
    >Workbench 2.0 on the Amiga will be better.  Windows is pretty strange
    >compared to the Mac or Amiga, but I believe that legal considerations were
    >largely responsible for this.  
    
    From what I've been able to glean from reading magazines about MS-Windows
    3.0, the words "slightly goofy" seem apt.  But all environments seem to
    have their quirks.
    
    >For one thing, no Windows applications generate the equivalent of
    >'project' icons.  You are forced to use the file requestor for
    >everything.  
    
    Oddly, I rarely take advantage of Amiga's 'project' icons.  Readme
    files are about the extent of it.  In a lot of ways I prefer the file
    requester approach.  By the same token I really like the DirUtil
    approach, and look forward to that functionality in Amiga OS 2.0.
    
    >And there are no representations of drives or directories on the
    >Windows Desktop; you must use their 'File Manager' which is the world's
    >absolute worst Directory Utility.  Amiga-like replacements are on the
    >way.
    
    I understand that there's at least one shareware file manager at the
    moment.  Glad to see that same spirit lives on on the other side.
    
    >For mainstream applications, the big-name products (Word, Excel, Project)
    >simply blow away anything on the Amiga.  There is no way to even compare
    >the quality (or price) of the Windows stuff.
    
    I confess that those sorts of applications are low on my list.  My
    serious interests lie in C++.  PC-Write running in a DOS window would
    probably suit my word processing needs.  (Or even the "Write" that
    comes with Windows.)
    
    >Shareware and PD on the Amiga blows away the equivalent on the PC, but
    >I do see some very interesting Windows shareware appearing.  
    
    I hate to admit it but that is a consideration for me.  Most of my
    non-game, utility-type software was cheap or free, and it's terrific.
    
    
    
    >I think that a lot of Mac programmers may be reluctantly going with the
    >PC.  50 million people _can_ be wrong, but you sure can't argue with
    >them.
    
    Sure you can, but they get this long-suffering look on their faces and
    roll their eyes in pity for the poor, misguided Amiga/Mac user. :-)
    
    
    Re "Wing Commander"
    
    Funny you should mention that one since it's one of the ones on my must
    have list.  All the ad hype and poop from reviewers who don't normally
    review Amiga games would suggest it has fast-moving graphics that'll
    grow hair on your chest.  I gather that you don't feel like its
    animation is anything special by Amiga standards.  As for "gaudy,"
    perhaps it was more the artist's poor judgment rather than a lack of a
    need for 256 colors.  I've seen some luscious VGA screens.
    
    >Hardware:  Believe it or not, I got a 33 MHz 386 with 4 MB RAM, 32 KByte
    >Cache,(2) floppy drives, a 100 MB Quantum IDE hard drive, and a 1024 x 768
    >Super VGA card for $2200.  That includes a 1 year, 100% parts/labor
    >warantee.   Add in another $150 for a Microsoft mouse & Windows, and
    >another $300 for the monitor, and you're in business for well under $2700.
    
    Where?
    
    Thanks again, Ed.
    
    
    -Gary

    
    Re: .36 (Gary)
    
    Maybe I should rephrase my comments about Wing Commander... the
    graphics _are_ very fast moving, but you just can't compare then to
    some of the Psygnosis 13-level parallax scrolling screens, such as
    Shadow of the Beast, which would be impossible to implement on a PC. 
    In spite of this, WC should ease any Amiga withdrawal symptoms.
    
    BTW, I got the PC at Solutions, Inc in Westmeadow Plaza in Westboro, MA
    right next to Papa Ginos.  This dealer has better than mail order
    prices and excellent service.  My system has a Taiwan TP386 motherboard
    with a C & T chipset, and is packaged in one of those mini-towers. 
    Other than a mushy keyboard, the system is pretty good in every
    respect.  They also offer a 30 day money back guarantee, in case you
    start to die from Amiga withdrawal.
    
    I must say that the PC/Windows combination lacks a lot of the charm
    that my Amiga had.  I find that I really don't spend much time with
    the PC (I used to stay up half the night just messing around with Amiga
    hacks), and I keep trying to pull down the Windows screen.  However,
    necessity dictated the change.  My wife is making more money at
    home now that we have a 'standard' machine.
    
    Ed

    
    
    re .36
    
    	If the AMIGA display is as much a problem as you say, why don't
    you fix the problem ?  A flicker fixer will fix the display problems
    you keep talking about. And YES a VGA monitor is all that is required
    for a flicker fixer. In fact my AMIGA 3000 will also work with a
    standard VGA monitor. It is true that some display modes do require
    a true multisync. I'll lookup all the display modes and the monitor
    type they require.
    
    	As for a slow disk controller and disk drive, what do you have ?
    Most if not all AMIGA SCSI controllers are at least as fast as
    PC disk controllers. The newer AMIGA controllers are much faster.
    Because of my current project at DEC, I will have exact numbers
    for PC disk performance soon.
    
    	As for the upgrade cost, you can always get a better deal looking
    at todays prices vs upgrading an older system. If you bought a
    PC when you bought an AMIGA you would have a slow 286 and be looking
    at replacing it.  A new AMIGA 3000 with 25 MHZ 68030, 50 MB harddisk,
    very fast SCSI controller, 2 MB memory, New ECS with flicker free
    display ( all part of a standard Amiga 3000 ) is now just $2900.00 .
    This seems to compare well with a new 386 PC.
    
    		Steve Peters
    

>    re .36
>    
>    	If the AMIGA display is as much a problem as you say, why don't
>    you fix the problem ?  A flicker fixer will fix the display problems
>    you keep talking about. And YES a VGA monitor is all that is required
>    for a flicker fixer. In fact my AMIGA 3000 will also work with a
>
I can answer this one:


$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ 

I can't afford a Flickerfixer OR a Multisync monitor.  I'll put up with the 
flicker for now.  (I have a high persistance b+w monitor to help with this.)

Randy

    
    FWIW, I believe that I've seen Flicker Fixers for sale for as low as
    $269 or so.  That's is just a little more than a decent video card for
    a PC.  Throw in another $300 for a VGA monitor and you'll have a visual
    feast for the eyes.
    
    Ed

    Re: .37

    >Maybe I should rephrase my comments about Wing Commander... the
    >graphics _are_ very fast moving, but you just can't compare then to
    >some of the Psygnosis 13-level parallax scrolling screens, such as
    >Shadow of the Beast, which would be impossible to implement on a PC.
    >In spite of this, WC should ease any Amiga withdrawal symptoms.

    Okay, I see what you mean.

    >BTW, I got the PC at Solutions, Inc in Westmeadow Plaza in Westboro, MA
    >right next to Papa Ginos.  ....

    I live in the deep south, so unless they do mailorder I'll have to
    pass, but thanks for the info.


    re .38

    >    If the AMIGA display is as much a problem as you say, why don't
    >you fix the problem ?

    I haven't abandoned the idea.

    >A flicker fixer will fix the display problems
    >you keep talking about. And YES a VGA monitor is all that is required
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Yeah, I checked that last night after I entered the note.

    >for a flicker fixer. In fact my AMIGA 3000 will also work with a
    >standard VGA monitor. It is true that some display modes do require
    >a true multisync. I'll lookup all the display modes and the monitor
    >type they require.

    Thanks.

    >    As for a slow disk controller and disk drive, what do you have ?

    An icky Pacific Peripherals paired with the slow version of the Seagate
    ST157N.  A friend of mine with the same setup recently took advantage
    of the GVP controller trade-in offer, and he's found that the drive
    really doesn't do much better.  (Though he does have auto-boot now.)

    >A new AMIGA 3000 with 25 MHZ 68030, 50 MB harddisk, very fast SCSI
    >controller, 2 MB memory, New ECS with flicker free display ( all part
    >of a standard Amiga 3000 ) is now just $2900.00 . This seems to compare
    >well with a new 386 PC.

    Whose price are we talking about here?  The last time I looked, the
    stated list price was more like $4000 for the above.  (That was back at
    the 3000 rollout, I think.)  Is that a dealer price, or are we talking
    Montgomery Grant?   And while I'm thinking upgrade thoughts, can anyone
    suggest a selling price for an '88 vintage 2000 (4.3 rev motherboard)
    with 2M of Zorro II ram, a slow (40ms) 48M hard drive, and an old but
    still reasonably good Sony KV-1311CR? :-)  Is $1300 too much?  1500?

    >Steve Peters


    Re .40  (Ed again)

    >FWIW, I believe that I've seen Flicker Fixers for sale for as low as
    >$269 or so.  That's is just a little more than a decent video card for
    >a PC.  Throw in another $300 for a VGA monitor and you'll have a
    >visual feast for the eyes.

    Yup, the FF can be had for <$300.  There are several other such devices
    in that price range too.


    After looking at prices in Amiga World last night, I'm once again
    thinking of powering up my 2000, or replacing it with a 3000.  (And
    perhaps throwing an ATonce board or bridge card in there for when work
    must be brought home.)

    
    -Gary

    
    I thought I'd take a few final paragraphs to clarify my impressions of
    life with a PC versus life with Amiga.
    
    First of all, other than a larger display and some excellent
    Windows-based business applications, there is really very little to
    like about the PC.  For example...
    
    Simple things like copying a floppy become a nightmare on a PC.  Even
    under Windows, the PC is capable of doing about one entire thing at a
    time, hardware wise.  Once you start copying a disk, you cannot do
    anything else.  That's right, folks, you can't even click the mouse
    button.  Something about the PC using IRQs, which do not compare
    favorably to the Amiga's 25 DMA chanels.  You get to sit there for
    hours on end listening to your disks gronk.  I find myself catching up
    on a lot of reading.
    
    Sound... If you spend $150 on a sound board, you will get a non-stereo
    product that sounds about 1/2 as good as Amiga's sound chip, with
    absolutely no OS support for it.  You install a sound driver file and
    hope that the game you bought supports it and can find it.  Forget
    about getting any system sounds to play through the board, as there are
    no system sounds.
    
    Hardware... with a motherboard from Taiwan, a video card from
    Singapore, floppys from Japan, hard drive from USA, keyboard from
    Malaysia, and case from Korea, the modern Clone is a miracle of
    mass-production and standardization - if it works the first time.  If
    not, you get to start swapping components and play field engineer. 
    Fortunately, I got my system from a local shop who will guarantee a
    working product, but it took three tries to get a good video card, and
    the second floppy had to be forced into the ill-fitting case with a
    hammer.  Sure, you could buy a Compaq or a genuine IBM, but now we're
    talking a $10,000 386 instead of a $2000 386.  If you buy an Amiga (or a
    Mac) you are buying a single, integrated system that is pretty much
    guaranteed to work.
    
    I'm not sorry I bought a PC, since I really wasn't using the Amiga for
    any of the things that it is good at, and we needed the PC for the
    things that _it_ is good at.  But if you think that the grass is
    greener, you may be surprised.
    
    Ed.

 >>A new AMIGA 3000 with 25 MHZ 68030, 50 MB harddisk, very fast SCSI
 >>controller, 2 MB memory, New ECS with flicker free display ( all part
 >>of a standard Amiga 3000 ) is now just $2900.00 . This seems to compare
 >>well with a new 386 PC.
 >
 >Whose price are we talking about here?  The last time I looked, the
 >stated list price was more like $4000 for the above.  (That was back at
 >the 3000 rollout, I think.)  Is that a dealer price, or are we talking
 >Montgomery Grant?

 The AMIGA 3000 system described above is a stock AMIGA 3000 without
 monitor. The price at the Memory Location ( full support dealer ) was
 $3400.00 2 weeks ago. One week ago they lowered the price to $2900.00 .
 In fact all AMIGA prices were lowered by CBM about a week ago.

 >And while I'm thinking upgrade thoughts, can anyone
 >suggest a selling price for an '88 vintage 2000 (4.3 rev motherboard)
 >with 2M of Zorro II ram, a slow (40ms) 48M hard drive, and an old but
 >still reasonably good Sony KV-1311CR? :-)  Is $1300 too much?  1500?

	From the memory location :

		Used A2000 1MB Agnus 1 floppy		$850-900

	I was looking for a used AMIGA a couple of weeks ago and
  asked what the going rate is.



		Steve Peters

>    FWIW, I believe that I've seen Flicker Fixers for sale for as low as
>    $269 or so.  That's is just a little more than a decent video card for
>    a PC.  Throw in another $300 for a VGA monitor and you'll have a visual
>    feast for the eyes.

Well, that's $569 more than I have right now.  I'm sure you can relate to this 
Ed.

Randy

As long as we're tossing about ideas on everything here,
and since I started the topic, I'll relate my impressions
as former (and still) Amiga owner and new NeXT owner.

BTW, the current price for USED configurations like my current NeXT
config (and available from Business-land with one month warrantee)
is about $3500 (includes 1132x820 non-interlaced BW monitor, keyboard,
mouse, 330mb hard drive, 256mb magneto optical drive, 8mb memory, 
25mhz 68030, 25mhz 68882, 25mhz DSP (don't remember chip number),
ethernet hardware and all the Unix/Next software). I paid 5295 for mine,
but got a year warrantee.  Haven't needed the warrantee, and worth
every penny.

In a nutshell, I'm finding the machine a Dream.  It'll never play
videogames like the Amiga, (or will it, the NeXTDimension boards with i860
chips and true 24 (or is it 32) bit color, might give even the Amiga
a run for video goodies, but at a high price tag).

If you want to play games, the NeXT isn't for you.  If you want to develop
software, it is really something.  I've benched the C++, Objective-C, 
and Allegro common lisp on my machine, and have been developing an Objective
C application for 2 months.  NeXT has done a terrific job of integrating
Objective C, GDB, emacs, NeXTStep. Debugging is a breeze, and my favorite
tools run.  Mach's support of messages & threads and other things make Ultrix 
look like a dog for development.

For graphic applications, Interface Builder is nice.  It took me an afternoon
to do the tutorials and learn the basics.  Now I can generate an entire
custom screen interface, with all kinds of scrollers, view fields, 
buttons, menus, etc.. and only have to actually write about 10 lines of code.
It's a very nice way to do development. (Interface Builder generates everything,
right down the the Makefile).

All I ever really wanted to do with my Amiga in the first place was
write software.  It didn't quite work out, for many reasons.  So now
all I find it good for is video games.  But the NeXT, particularly for the
price, very nice.  And, compared to most of the workstations I've used
at DEC, nicer even at an order of magnitude less money.

NeXT Inc, well, it's a dangerous bet if you want stability and guarantees
about the vendor.  But we "old" Amiga owners are all used to that.  Of course,
there is nothing that says the NeXT will enjoy the same success.

Finally, as a person who enjoyed the Amiga's windowing interface, ans also
finds PC's braindead, I can say that while the NeXT has one or two lacking
features in the windowing environment, overall I haven no complaint.  And
whatever complaints I do have are completely gone when I enjoy the
nice utilities NeXT has supplied for both using Unix, NeXTStep, and writing
code for the machine.  Display PostScript is a particularly fun way to go.
(Another thing that you can learn in a single afternoon.  Geez, DECwindows
could really learn a few lessons).

Okay, as you can tell, I've found a new religion.  The Commodore
3000UX sounds like it's shaping up as a competitive machine, but they'll
have to do more to make it as good a value as the NeXT.  The NeXT bundled
software (at least to people like me) is wonderful.  So far, "C" as
bundled software on the UX doesn't excite me.  

I won't spout any more NeXT religion.  I don't want to annoy the
Amiga world.  Amiga's a good machine.  I still have mine, and even have
some non-video game uses intended for it.  If anybody wants a NeXT demo
or has questions, send me mail, I'll  be happy to answer. (or ask in the
Shalot::NeXt conference).  

Dave

re: PC parts from all over the world

NeXT is fully assembled in the USA ... Jobs and his automated
manufacturing facilities...

    Ed,
    	I know what you mean about having to get a system for what it is
    good for. I started in the CP/M world, the best desktop DOS available
    at the time, and had real problems when degrading system reliability
    forced me to upgrade. There were only two compatible systems available
    then, two years ago, and I tried the C=128D. Well, as a CP/M system it
    left a lot (2MHz vs my O-1's 4MHz) to be desired. My lady NEEDED a new
    system so I gave up, held my nose, and recommended an inexpensive 286
    for her. SHE is happy with it, but her needs are quite limited and well
    within the 286's capabilities. It makes a good typewriter-with-memory.
    Conversion of old files was nearly painless (THE important factor). I
    never use it except when she has stumbled into a nasty corner, then
    wants me to get her out. But *I* do the posters and programs for her
    plays on my GUI/WYSIWYG system. Character cells are OUT.

    Re .42  (Ed A.)

    >I'm not sorry I bought a PC, since I really wasn't using the Amiga for
    >any of the things that it is good at, and we needed the PC for the
    >things that _it_ is good at.  But if you think that the grass is
    >greener, you may be surprised.

    >Ed.

    Ed, whether by accident or design, you (and others here) have made me
    reconsider my thoughts about PC buying.  I've been working with a PC on
    the job again (an SX) and though I've been drooling over the display
    quality, I've been seeing and feeling the MS-DOS warts, that made me
    reject the PC in favor of the Amiga in 1986.


    Re .43

    >>>A new AMIGA 3000 with 25 MHZ 68030, 50 MB harddisk, very fast SCSI
    >>>controller, 2 MB memory, New ECS with flicker free display ( all part
    >>>of a standard Amiga 3000 ) is now just $2900.00 .
    >>
    >>Whose price are we talking about here?  The last time I looked, the
    >>stated list price was more like $4000 for the above.  (That was back at
    >>the 3000 rollout, I think.)  Is that a dealer price, or are we talking
    >>Montgomery Grant?
    >
    >The AMIGA 3000 system described above is a stock AMIGA 3000 without
    >monitor. The price at the Memory Location ( full support dealer ) was
    >$3400.00 2 weeks ago. One week ago they lowered the price to $2900.00 .
    >In fact all AMIGA prices were lowered by CBM about a week ago.

    That's good to hear.  Just for grins I called Montgomery Grant today
    to ask about the 3000.  The numbers are $2179 for the 16MHz/50M
    machine, and $2649 for the 25MHz/50M one.  (Don't know if that includes
    a keyboard or not. :-)  I didn't ask about the 100M machine, since I
    *know* I can't afford that.  I don't intend to buy from MG, but I'm not
    really sure who will sell me one.  The reputable mailorder places don't
    sell the computers, and the last Amiga dealer (that I know of) in my
    area stopped carrying computers altogether about 3 years ago.  (They
    were a computer and record [you remember, the black vinyl things] store
    that specialized in C= computers.)  (Cool store, by the way.  They were
    the perfect place to sell the "way cool" Amiga 1000. :-)

    Anyone know the C= number I can call for dealer info?

    Any Dixie-dwellers who have experiences with dealers in the Charlotte
    NC, Greenville/Spartanburg SC, or Atlanta GA areas?

    [I asked about going used 2000 rate]
    
    >   From the memory location :
    >
    >     Used A2000 1MB Agnus 1 floppy		$850-900
    >
    >  I was looking for a used AMIGA a couple of weeks ago and
    >asked what the going rate is.
    
    Thanks for the info.  I have old Agnus, but I have 2 floppies.  I'll
    start with $800 and work from there.  Zorro II RAM boards are getting
    dirt cheap.  For the price I paid for 2M awhile back, one can now get
    6M.  And so it goes....
    
    
    
    Sorry to move away from the topic.  Mr. Moderator is certainly welcome
    to put it in a better spot.


    Thanks for all of your support.

    -Gary

    Well, this kind of gets off the topic, too, but it is related in a
    roundabout way.  In the process of trying to replace my system (see
    #4516), my dealer, Paragon of Colorado Springs, has informed me that he
    is receiving a 2000 as a trade-in from someone who wants to upgrade to
    a 3000.  This system is missing some of the things that I had before,
    including a bridgeboard.  Paragon is an authorized Commodore dealer
    and told me that the prices on 2088 (XT) and 2286 (AT) bridgeboards
    have come down considerably.  Granted, this is still not as cheap as
    a mail-order clone, and probably not even as fast or powerful.  My
    thinking about this bounces back and forth -- greater power at a lower
    price or more convenience in less space.  MS-DOS is so brain-dead when
    compared to a true multi-tasking operating system, that I often found
    myself pulling up the MS-DOS window only long enough to issue a
    command, then pushed that sucker back into the background so that I
    could do something more interesting and valuable in an AmigaDOS window.
    I suspect that I will do the same thing again, going with the
    bridgeboard because of the convenience.
    
    I intentionally tried to remain MS-DOS illiterate as long as possible,
    but finally had to cave in last year when I was going back to school
    for my Master's degree.  While working on projects for various classes,
    I had occasion to work on a number of different systems ranging from
    a plain vanilla 512K PC to a screaming 386.  It almost seems as if the
    new Intel-based systems have been designed with hardware that really
    hauls butt because the software is so user-obnoxious.  It is only with
    the widespread availability of relatively cheap  286, 386, and even 486
    systems running Windows, that the PC world has even approached the
    kind of capabilities that I had with my 1000 five years ago.  But as someone
    said earlier, it's tough to argue with such a large installed base.
    When asked, "What kind of system do you have?", I reply, "Amiga 2000".
    Generally, this ends the conversation.  Often, these people will shake
    their heads and mutter about the poor, misguided soul who refuses to
    follow the masses...
    
    Dave

    re .48 - Whilst (I love those All-in-1 terms) in Atlanta, try Ampex
    Systems on Jimmy Carter Blvd.  Last time I was there, they had 3
    A3000's sitting on display doing all sorts of wonderful things.  They
    had the obligatory Digi-view hooked to one and a synthesizer hooked to
    a second, both for demo purposes.
    
    Can't vouch for prices, though.  I was able to do some minor haggling
    on software prices.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tony

Charlotte:

	Try Software Etc and Sears for 'consumer' type 500s.

Atlanta area:

	Ampex Supply on Jimmy Carter Blvd.  Also does mail-order.

	BFJ Enterprises in Roswell Mall also has good prices.

	AAMIGA Center in Sandy Springs (moving soon?) may or may
		not do Amiga Hardware (long story and many rumors) but
		definitely does mail order software.

	I think there might be a 4th around but here but I don't know for
	sure.

    Re .50 & .51
    
    Thanks so much for the Atlanta and Charlotte suggestions.  I had
    entertained the idea of going to Hotlanta for a PC, perhaps it'll be a
    3000 instead.
    
    
    -Gary