Conference hydra::amiga_v1

We bought AMOS when it first came out and my 13 year old son has programmed
several games in it. It has a number of features that make game creation
easy - you can create things that move around, make noises, play music etc.
It has a nice user interface / editor / windowing system that make it very
easy to use. I think we decided it was money well spent - even though we
payed full price al �50 - it is now available for �30-�40 on discount.

Nick 

Have read reviews and got a copy of the demo disk.

Very much like an enhanced BASIC (very enhanced). With many extensions to 
support Amiga type functions(as per -.1).

The demo was very impressive, especially when you consider it is an interpreter.

Mike

    This program is offered through ABLE for $58.54.
     But now I'm curious as well, has anyone seen any reviews on this
    product? If so where?
     Are there any demo's around that can be posted?
    		
    	
    							Thanks;
    								Ed
    

    Its a excellent deal for $50..It would still be a good deal if it was
    $150... For game programming it blows C away. It has 5X as many object
    commands as amiga basic.. It loads IFF sounds and pictures..Loads
    sonix,soundtracker music...
     
    Are you sure its interpreted? The speed the programs run make w3it
    appear as if it HAD to be compiled to go that fast..On the down side it
    will probaly not be compatible with workbench 2.0
    

Well, the demo I got hold of could be control-c'ed and I could look at the
basic-like program, made a couple of mods (simple text output so I could see the
changes). Ran the program again, no problem.

Maybe it tokenises the program, e.g. P-code style, but certainly the source was
there in the demo. And the delay between telling it to run and it actually running
seemed too short to have the program compiled into machine code.

Mike

    
    I bought Amos when it came out and think it is excellent.
    
    		Amos is basically a much beefed up( in fact it was totally
    rewritten ), and faster running version of 'STOS the games creator' 
    which was released for the ST ( yeuck ! ).
    
    re -.2:
    		Yes Amos is interpreted, however the sprite control
   /animation commands ( called Amal) are compiled at run time. 
    
    		the amount of commands at your disposal when you first
    try it is a bit daunting, but once you get used to it ( constantly
    refering back to the manual :-) it's quite easy to use and you can
    produce very nice programs/demo's quite quickly.
    
    		One point is that when you run an Amos program it uses the
    interrupts exclusively ( so no multitasking is allowed ). although when
    a program is finished it will exit back to WB or CLI.
    
    		One of the beauties of the program is that it's open ended
    and will allow you to make up your own commands and add them on. ( they
    can be written in Amos itself, machine code, etc). and from the blurb
    extra commands are already being worked on.
    
    		Mandarin are expecting to release a module around Christmas
    that will allow you to define and manipulate solid 3d objects ala
    starglider 2 ( I believe the programmers that wrote s.g. 2 are writing
    the commands). Also planned for release is a Compiler for Amos. 
    
    		Currently you need Amos to run your programs or if you wish
    to release programs into the public domain you need Ramos which is a
    run only version of Amos and is freely distributable.
    
    		all in all, it's excellent value for money !.
    
    
    
    						John.
    

    Checkout the Uk Computer Mags   Amiga Format etc.
    
    	One of them did a disk with a demo on recently.. Try it yourself
    
    	There is supposed to be a 3D version out soom , which should be 
    quite impressive.
    
    #include <std/disclaimer.h>
    	Personally I cannot stand Basic..
    
    
    			-Pete-

    And Amiga Computing
    
    	It appears to be running a tutorial..
    
    
    			-Pete-
    

    Well, I picked up Amos, and installed it on my hard-drive.
    It seems quite nice, but has a few quirks that might be "ARP"
    related. (I'll check out tonight).
     One thing I do notice is there is about an inch of trash on the top
    screen on one of the demo's (Magic Forest) as well as the editor
    screen.
     Also, it gurued when I ran "Castle Amos" another demo included.
     I set my stack to 8000, and it seemed to clear up all but the Magic
    Forrest stuff.
     I'm running this on an A500 with hardrive and 3megs of memory.
     Anyone else have these types of problems?
      Maybe there is some pal/ntsc conflicts?
         Any Ideas?
    							Thanks;
    								Ed
    

 I found the config.amos program and switched amos to ntsc.
 After loading some of my own screens, I believe that the garbage at the top of 
 the screen was due to the fact that the programs were written to pal
 coordinates, since I havn't had any problems loading mine.
    Also, when loading amos, it doesn't like having windows closed during
    the process.. This was the reason mine was crashing.
    One small beef, there isn't a U.S. keyboard definition in the keyboard
    directory, only English & French.
    However it comes with a Keyboard definer program but I haven't had time
    to read the docs on it.
    
  But I've got a question for those more expierenced than I with Amos.
  In using the Dual Playfield command, my program doesn't execute as expected.

  Open Screen 1,320,200,32,lores
  Load iff"foobar:pic1.iff",1
  Open Screen 2,320,200,32,lores
  Load iff"foobar:pic2.iff",2
  Dual Playfield 1,2

  When run, the program displays the screen2 but does not allow screen 1 to 
show through.

							Thanks;
								Ed

  
                           

re:-1

!>  Open Screen 1,320,200,32,lores
!   Load iff"foobar:pic1.iff",1
!>  Open Screen 2,320,200,32,lores
!   Load iff"foobar:pic2.iff",2
!  Dual Playfield 1,2

!  When run, the program displays the screen2 but does not allow screen 1 to 
!show through.

   I answered my own question.
   In the Open screen commands, the MAX # of colors can be 8 for a lores
   screen in order to use the dual playfield command.
   Also It is necessary to convert the screens from 32 color to 8.
   
   However does anyone know how to create a "wrap around" screen?
  For instance.. when scrolling a screen, it scrolls right off the view, 
 instead of wraping.

						Thanx;
							Ed
    
							


  

    Am I the only one who has had trouble using AMAL? When I use move and
    anim commands...one of them always goes faster than the other so it
    goes through the animimation too fast or doesnt animate at all... Ive
    been forced to use the regular AMOS commands
    

re:-1 Try using strings like "m$" in examples below to synchro motion and Anim.

 I've been recently experimenting with Amal myself.
 One thing I've noticed is that I have to add some sort of "Wait" command
 in order to have Sprites show up on my screen.
  
   open screen 1,320,200,32 lores
   load iff"df1:background.iff",1
   load "df1:sprites.abk"
   Sprite 1,300,200,1
   m$="a 1,(1,2)(2,2)(3,2)(4,2)(5,2)(6,2)"
   m$=m$+"move 145,145,100"
   Amal 1,m$
   Amal On 1
   
 I spent a week trying to get this to run, when I finally noticed the "Wait"
command being used in the manual examples.

   open screen 1,320,200,32 lores
   load iff"df1:background.iff",1
   load "df1:sprites.abk"
   Sprite 1,300,200,1
   m$="a 1,(1,2)(2,2)(3,2)(4,2)(5,2)(6,2)"
   m$=m$+"move 145,145,100"
   Amal 1,m$
   Amal On 1
>> Wait key
  
 It ran..., I still don't understand why it requires some type of wait command
(I thought Amal ran as an independent process).

 Also the following will not show sprite number 2.

   open screen 1,320,200,32 lores
   load iff"df1:background.iff",1
   load "df1:sprites.abk"
   Sprite 1,300,200,1
   Sprite 2,300,200,1
   m$="a 1,(1,2)(2,2)(3,2)(4,2)(5,2)(6,2)"
   m$=m$+"move 145,145,100"
   n$="a 2,(1,2)(2,2)(3,2)(4,2)(5,2)(6,2)"
   n$=n$+"move 145,145,100"
   Amal 1,m$
   Amal 2,n$
   Amal On 1
   Amal On 2
   Wait key

 Could someone explain why?
 
							Thanks;
								Ed

    
    
    With respect to the 1st program, without the Wait Key command at the
    end of the program , the program finishes and as such the animation 
    won't run.
    
    With respect to the 2nd you're placing the exact same animation on
    top of the first and moving them both along the exact same path. Thus
    I imagine it looks like its just 1 sprite. ( but in reality both
    are running). Try changing the movement increment on the second and
    see do they split apart.
    
    
    					John.
    

     re: -1
     
     Re: 1st program
     I thought that once I started an Amal routine it ran independant of
    the main program (guess I was wrong).
    
     Re: 2nd program
     Oops, the second sprite move command should read 180,180 for movement
     coordinates, (I got sloppy with my VMS Editor).
    
    							Thanks;
    								Ed
    PS Has anyone gotten the books mentioned in the newsletter that came 
       with AMOS?
       One I believe is called "The Game Makers Manual" for the Atari ST 
       version called "STOS".
       The other one is being written, and I'm not shure if it is available
       yet. This is the one he's writing for Amiga's "Amos".
       
    						
    

    
    
    re: prog 1	yes, Amal is idependant of the program that calls it, but
    once that program completes it automatically stops any associated Amal
    routines.
    
    re: prog 2 even changing the sprite 2 movement to 180,180, you are 
    still effectively running 1 on top of the other ( the 100 is the 
    step size, comparison means your steps are 1.45 and 1.8 respectively,
    I'm not sure, but I think it gets rounded up which would still put one on 
    top of the other. Judging by your starting point, both sprites run off the
    screen, so although sprite 1 should stop before 2, they're both off the 
    screen at that stage. Try changing the starting point up to approx
    150,50 ( top left of screen using Hardware co-ordinates), and see
    does 1 indeed stop and 2 continue on.
    
    
    					John.
    

	Add my vote to support for AMOS...

	You get to spend time designing your game play, sprites etc
	rather than poring over listings trying to find a misplaced
	semi-colon in your C code. 

	I would see AMOS as a "4GL" tool, allowing you to rapid
	prototype something, rather than spend hours plugging away
	in C and then decide you don't like the results anyway.

	As with *Datatrieve, if performance is really an issue you
	can always go back and code it after it does what you want. 

	Other comments:

	- The "FOLD" facility is neat 

	- The tools supplied are all written in AMOS (and they work !) 

	- I have been unable to crash the system while running AMOS
	  on my 1MB Amiga 500, a task I find trivial when dabbling with
	  windows, sound etc with Lattice C.	

	Paul P.

	*just an example, NOT my favourite tool either

	Wow!

	I just recieved my 1.21 update disk, plus the Extra's disk at no 
extra charge!
	I really expected to have to pay shipping or something, what with
them having to ship overseas to the U.S.A.
	Also, I only sent in my registration card around 2 weeks ago.
  Not only did they ship immeadetley, they must of shipped Air-Mail.
        It's hard to get this type of support from companies that are 
 in the U.S.A.!
	My hat off to Mandarin! For a great product and support at a great
 price!
	I can't wait for the compiler and 3d moduale to come out.
    
							Ed 

 On the EXTRA'S disk is a couple of programs to convert SMUS and Sound Tracker
music files to a Amos music file.
 They are Sonix.amos and Sound_tracker.amos.
 I've been using MED2.13 to make music, and save in Sound_Tracker format.
 (this is useful since I don't have Soundtracker)
 However, they seem to convert ok, but the conversion program reports an extra
10 instruments when converting. Also when it gets to the instrument conversion
 it only takes about 1 second to convert.
 When I go to play the music back, the whole system locks up.
 Does anyone else with Amos have any expierience these 2 programs?
 Do they work as expected when using the proper program ?
 
                                                 Thanks
							Ed 
                                                       

RE: .19 

From the expert (my son!):

The MED soundtracker format save function is somewhat unreliable; it would
be advisable to get some version of Soundtracker/Noisetracker. You can
still use MED because it's a much much better editor, but then you should
save in soundtracker format, load that into Soundtracker and re-save from
within 'tracker. This ought to work better. (Make sure you save MODULE
format, not SONG format. MODULE saves instruments in the same file.)

DO NOT use non-standard size blocks (ie non-64)...

I use Noisetracker 1.0 (on the net somewhere); this works OK but when
converted to AMOS everything in the rightmost melody track gets shifted one
beat up/down (can't remember which). This must be corrected for within
Noisetracker.

	I just bought AMOS. I got version 1.2. It comes configured for PAL. I
changed the configuration file for NTSC and the games fit on screen now, but
the file requester still extends below the bottom of the screen. Also, in direct
mode, there is about 1/2 inch of garbage at the top of the screen and the 
command entry window goes off the bottom. The line that displays your entry is
not visible. Does anybody else have this problem? Does this 1.2.1 upgrade
fix it? Will I get that automatically when I send in the registration cards?

	It is, indeed, quite easy to access many functions that normally require
library functions. And the speed is pretty impressive for an interpretive
language. It is clear that the underlying code was written in assembly.
It has some nice features for program developement, too. It is curious that
a program so closely taylored to the hardware environment has such a non-amiga
like user interface, though. But, it looks like it will be worth getting used
to. This is the perfect tool for writing educational programs for the kids.

     I to have the same problem's with the direct mode editor, junk on top
    and the editor is partially scrolled around the top.
     The file requestor position can be adjusted by running the config.amos
     file, I believe the direct mode editor too can be adjusted there.
     Also in direct mode you can scroll the edit screen with the up/down
    cursor keys to get on the screen properly. (So I'm lazy ;') )
     
     Re:.20
    
       Thanks !
    
    							Ed
    

    RE .21  I was thinking of using Amiga Vision to write educational
    programs for my kids (pre school).  Any users out there that have used
    AMOS and Amiga vision and can provide some ideas on both programs.
    
    Young kids get bored easily.  A program that can easily be modified for
    a new variation, or a program that could be easily rewritten would be a 
    big benifit.  Or to simply add new music and graphics and vary the
    voice.
    
    Amos sounds like its rich in graphics and sound.  But how about text 
    manipulation for spelling programs or and math/letter drilling programs?
    How does it handle multiple fonts I use a 73 point font in my Hisoft 
    programs I have already written.  But time is limited and I can not
    find enough of it to do all that I want to.  Commercial programs are
    good but limited and kids get tired of them.  I found that digitizing
    familure objects such as some of their toys, and using them in their 
    programs keeps their interest longer.
    
    Just the fact that AMOS is based on a script and easy to modify would be 
    a plus.  Also how does it handle DMCS music.  I also have MED but it can 
    only use the DMCS instruments not the DMCS song format.  Any one tried to 
    convert a DMCS produced SMUS file to AMOS?                     
    
    Also being crash free would be a big plus.  You would not believe how
    many times I had to rewrite my keyboard parsing routine to keep my kid
    then 2 from halting or crashing the program.  
    
    Basically what I need is, quick to develop and easily modifiable code
    with lots of graphic/music pre written routines.
    
    
    Any ideas would be welcome.
    Thanks
    Alan
    
       

  >  RE .21  I was thinking of using Amiga Vision to write educational
  >  programs for my kids (pre school).  Any users out there that have used
  >  AMOS and Amiga vision and can provide some ideas on both programs.

    I can't speak for either of those (although from the descriptions, it
    would seem AMOS would be better suited for games), but CanDo is well
    suited for what I think you have in mind. It's closer to AmigaVision
    (so I'm told) in functionality, but it has a real slick interface for
    creating on-screen gadgets. The combination of it and a digitizer and
    sound-sampler would be an ideal base for creating applications. I'm
    not familiar with DMCS, but CanDo can play 8SVX sounds and supports
    ARexx.

  >  a new variation, or a program that could be easily rewritten would be a 

    CanDo's scripting makes this part easy (especially for we non-programmers).
    
  >  Amos sounds like its rich in graphics and sound.  But how about text 
  >  manipulation for spelling programs or and math/letter drilling programs?
  >  How does it handle multiple fonts I use a 73 point font in my Hisoft 

    CanDo has several different types of text manipulation features, and
    can display a wide variety of fonts (and can enhance them with built-in
    rendering tools for bold, shadowed, embossed, etc) but some (like text
    input fields) are limited to a single font or mono-spaced fonts.

  >  Also being crash free would be a big plus.  You would not believe how
  >  many times I had to rewrite my keyboard parsing routine to keep my kid
  >  then 2 from halting or crashing the program.

    So far, CanDo has been very solid for me, but if you use custom screens
    or load alot of stuff (ANIM's, brushes, sounds, etc) it can be very
    disk and/or memory intensive (it seems to swap stuff in and out of
    memory well, but can swamp a 512K machine).
    Version 1.5 (just announced) is supposed to have single-key script
    capabilties, so you could "lock" certain keys. Currently, the "field"
    object can be used in combination with a script to weed out the
    "nasties".
    
  >  Basically what I need is, quick to develop and easily modifiable code
  >  with lots of graphic/music pre written routines.

    CanDo can fit the quick and easy bill, but I'm not sure about the
    latter.

    Pete

    	I am very pleased with AMOS for writing educational programs. I
    agree that you have to keep changing programs to keep the kids'
    attention. Apart from high level access to all the hardware (sounds,
    sprites and bobs, scrolling, voice, fonts, etc, you get a very fast
    interpreter. It is really fast to try a program, stop, modify it, and
    try again.
    
    	I wanted to make a picture of a school bus scroll off the screen as a
    reward for correct answers. First, you define the scrolling region:
    
    DEF SCROLL n,x1,y1 to x2,y2,dx,dy
    
    n identifies the scroll region. There can be 16 of them.
    
    To scroll it once:
    
    Scroll n
    
    Put that in a loop and it scrolls m times. But the screen flickers
    because it isn't double buffered. So you add the statement:
    
    Double Buffer
    
    That's it. Smooth animation. Layers Library? Don't even think about the 
    Layers library. I'm impressed.
    
    I think this is an ideal tool for this purpose. You can probably do
    some pretty spiffy stuff with CanDo or AmigaVision, too. So if you have
    other reasons to buy those, that might be a reasonable way to go. If
    you don't need them for other reasons, AMOS is a little cheaper, and, I
    assume less limiting since you have a full programming language to work
    with.

    Was the School Bus a BOB, Sprite or just a region of the screen grabbed
    with something like the Basic GET statement?  I would need to do things
    like animate letters.  For example a spelling program when the kid gets
    the word right the letters dance around while a song plays.
    
    For the Bobs and sprite are the in a compatible format with Amiga
    Basic or in my case Hisoft Basic?
    
    I have a few educational decks for CANDO.  A cootie game and a question
    answer deck (note 3333).  The question answer deck looks good with a 
    English/German and English/French tutorial.  I have not run them yet.  
    AmigaVision, Commodore chose not to make a separate player version so it 
    will be hard to see a demo.  CANDO and AmigaVision are about equal in 
    ability from what I have read.  Amiga vision being slightly more 
    sophisticated in its user interface.  Which in my case is its major 
    drawback, a scripted/editable output would be more useful after the 
    original work is done.  AmigaVisions major feature would be the ability to 
    add a CDROM in the future (the far future for my preschoolers).
    
    Its starting to look like AMOS is the one but I still need to look
    around a lttle more.  By the time I outgrow it Multi Media would have
    matured a little more. 
    
    Thanks for the information all.
    Alan
    
    

	The school bus was just a region on the screen. I just created a
scrolling region to the edge and scrolled it off. I haven't tried bobs or
sprites yet, but the support for them is extensive; ie. a large fraction of
the manual is devoted to them. THe manual leads me to believe that the format
for sprites and bobs is the standard format. There is also a utility that lets
you create sprites by grabbing them out of an IFF picture.

	One word of caution: if you have programs written in some other Basic,
AMOS has some gratuitous differences from standard Basic, so porting will be
more of an effort than one would suspect. In fact, now that I think of it, I
don't recall seeing any way of importing programs in text format. An example
of a gratuitous difference is the input file statement:

instead of 
open "filename" for input as file #1

its
open in "filename",1

	It's not a big deal, but it does take a fair amount of manual flipping
to get started. Even if you're pretty familure with Basic. Even so, really easy
to get your program running quickly.

Didn't see a reply from an AmigaVision user, so I thought I'd pop one in.

I haven't used the program extensively yet, but I am in the midst of putting
together a spelling test program for my nine-year-old foster son. My time is a
bit limited, and so I'm not going for lots of flash, but it should be easy
enough to add later, from what I can see. Oh, the blessings of modularity!

I like the AV interface. I do agree that they should provide some kind of
"compilation" utility which turns a script into a file of text commands; this
would provide the best of both worlds. I can also see why it might be a low
priority, though- Commodore is going for the visually-oriented nonprogrammers,
and providing a totally graphic view of a "program" is, I think, a more
effective (and more marketable) way to allow non-techies to "see" what a program
does with no need to "visualize" the results of a series of text commands.

The spelling test is built around what my little guy has to do for school
(manually at present). Given a list of words, (1) alphabetize them, (2) write a
sentence for each word which uses it correctly, and (3) the next week, in
school, take a spelling test consisting of the same words. (For the last
exercise, I'm having the script speak the sentences entered in (2).)

Given that I've really only scanned the manual briefly, everything seems fairly
intuitive so far.

    Since I got my update disk which included "Ramos" the runtime version
    of Amos, if anybody wants me to U/L some of the example programs, let
    me know.
    
    								ED

    Shure upload them as long its all PD.  
    
    Thanks!
    Alan
    who is still stuck in the decision loop.
    
    

      Just to let you guys know, I haven't forgotten about the upload of
    demo's. In fact I should have a couple up here tommorrow.
      
    								Ed
    

    I own both Amigavision,and CanDo. I haven't decided if I am going to
    pick up AMOS yet. I had cando before I purchased AmigaVision,and felt
    that owning both packages would be overkill. However I think that for
    actual "Multimedia" work Amigavision is the only way to go. The POS
    demo currently running at System Eyes shows this to be true. Most 
    Multimedia presentations will not even begin to push Amigavision to
    it's limits. It has the advantage of being very easy to use,and offers
    enough control thru it's use of conditional,and wait icons to handle to
    the types of decisions needed for MultiMedia. I think that this ease of
    use tends to belie the power that is available to the AmigaVision user
    when applied to Multimedia use.(in say a corporate office).
    	CanDo has several abilities that Amigavision lacks, most notably
    the capability of using menus,and Items. With Cando you can easily
    build a workbench type interface to control an application. This makes
    it ideal for educational applications,and as a front end for utility
    applications. The tutorial that comes with it "power Window" clearly
    demonstrates this. CanDo is also expandable in the manner that AMOS is.
    	I purchased the Pro Pack to supplement CanDo, and it featured
    several nice utilities. To use them you drop them in an exsisting
    drawer, and CanDo automatically makes them Available to the user. 
    If I was planning on building an application with a workBench type of
    interface this would be my package of choice. While it offers more
    flexability than AmigaVision I honestly don't feel it compares for
    multimedia work,and possibly any educational application that uses a
    laser disk for it's base.
    	AMOS: I don't own it yet but if I was going to do a game it sounds
    like the way to go. I'll pick it upin a few weeks to give it a look.
    For now can someone tell me if you can build mouse driven menus like those
    on workbench with AMOS. I don't see AMOS,or CanDo as being competative
    with AmigaVision in a true high end Multivision development
    enviornment.
    								bill
    

    I want to be able to use my AMI to present my family history. I have
    a genealogy program (YFT).
    
    I am considering CANDO so i can generate a Hypertext style of
    presentation and allow randon/unstructured jumping around the overall
    genealogical structure - including notes, picture files and maybe
    oneday video(certainly not now....).
    
    My understanding of CANDO is that it would support this style of use. 
    
    Question - will AmigaVision do this style of this as well, as 
    this would be the way I would prefer to go if possible??
    
    regard
    kevin
    
    

re: .33

I don't know anything about YFT or how you wish to interface to it, but I think
the chances are that you can do what you want with AV (AmigaVision).

You can define screens which are comprised of IFF images or brushes and overlay
"hit boxes" on them which become active buttons. You can create, manipulate,
and search databases using key fields. You can initiate exeutables from within
AV. I would think that some combination of these abilities alone would allow
you to construct an interface which allowed the user to click on a hit box to
traverse your genealogical tree and display the new subtree of choices as "hit
boxes."

The one trick I haven't figured out yet is how to dynamically define hit boxes.
That doesn't mean it can't be done, I haven't put a lot of thought into it.
Without this, you'd have to statically define your hit boxes, and depending on
the content of a given family "branch" ignore some inputs. I realize I'm
making a lot of assumptions about what you want to do, but you didn't give
much detail. If you have particular questions, I can try to answer them.

Re: .32

It's nice to hear the comparison you provide; I have AV and don't have CanDo,
but was wondering what I was missing. Question for you: has it proven to be
worth the offer InovaTronics is offering "current customers?" I have
PowerWindows and got a card in the mail offering it for something like $85, if
I remember correctly. Thanks again for your information.

Cheers,
	Bob

From the AmigaVision/CanDo/Thinker presentations at BADGE, (I own AV and
Thinker, but haven't beat on AV a lot yet), neither CanDo nor AV can create
buttons dynamically. So if you can format your family tree into something
that fits the forms of one of the two (Person, Father, Mother, scrolling
lists of siblings and children, maybe), then either one of them should
do. If you want things to be more dynamic than that, you need a different
tool.

The summary from those talks was:

AV - a presentation builder. A large number of applications it won't deal well
with.

CanDo - an application builder. A small number of applications it won't
deal well with, but it's missing many of the features you'd want for
building presentations.

Thinker - a hypertext system, with some multimedia hooks. Presentations
can be done with the tools provided with Thinker (the thinker presentation
was done with thinker; my ARexx presentation is done in thinker), but not
as well as with the others. If the application is centered around a
heirarchical data base, Thinker is probably the best choice of the three.

If I were going to do a family tree, I'd be tempted to use thinker to store
the data, and add a CanDo tool for manipulating the data base (using the
ARexx port in thinker).

Has anyone worked with UltraCard (whatever it's name is now)?

	<mike

    I am not sure what is ment when one says "create buttons Dynamically".
    	with Amigavision you could have many nested routines, and the
    ability to move between them with ease. As far as hyper text is
    concerned Amigavision has such ability. For instance in amigavision you
    can display a text file on screen(prepared for this application) and
    click on a word with the mouse, At that time you will perform whatever
    functions are tied to that particular text. If you had a list of
    different animals, and you picked "Duck" Amigavision will show you
    a picture of a duck, play the quacking of a duck,and if wanted display
    an animation of a duck. After this you could end up with a picture of
    the duck onscreen. Click on parts of the duck,and Amigavision will do
    it all again for that part of the animal. you can of course go back to
    the main text screen at will. This can be easily linked to the Dbase
    compatable data base that is within Amigavision. The hidden power comes
    from the fact that all the icons you select bring up a dynamic
    requester that relates to that icon. the picture icon will allow you to
    select the picture,resolution,transistion,etc. What you actually have
    is a THINKER type aplication with an intergrated visual Front End. I
    had looked into thinker at one point(before cando) and while I realized
    it's strength, I felt it was not the type of interface I wanted. In
    both products one has to process the input text file so it can be used
    to implement the hypertext functions. Amigavision actually  replaces
    the text with a graphic representation (not noticed in the application)
    Of course it is nice it the active words are highlighted to allow the
    user ease in selection. Amigavision would be able to handle the Familey
    Tree" application in a very elegant manner with no problem.
    	The pos demo i saw had a section where the user was placing an
    order for electrical components. Upon selecting the component from the
    list of inventory they were showen a graphic representation of the
    component and the cost. In the case or a resistor it displayed a
    digitized resistor showing the color code, in the instance of an IC it
    displayed the logic ,as seen in the data book. After the used had
    selected the components and then clicked on total they are greeted with
    an invoice showing Component number, cost per, total cost for amount
    ordered, and a final total for all the components in the order.  At
    that time you could print, the order, or process it depending on how
    you wanted to handle the application.(ie you could have the customer
    punch in his order,and have it ready before ha actually talked to
    anyone). This was done using the Database function. We have to look at
    all the peices of each of these programs CanDo, Amos, Thinker, and 
    AmigaVision and then see how they interact within the application.
    	So What appears to many to be a shallow puddle at first glance
    actually turns out to be a lake when they step in it. Many of these
    Hypertext applications have this trait. The traditional language
    strengths,and weaknesses are easier to sort out(C vs Basic) than 
    the Cando, Amigavision type of programs. I find myself hung on Cando's
    ability to allow me to build actual menus, with items ect. In reality
    I am limiting myself to the workbench type interface, where with
    creativity one can go far beyound this if they can break out of this 
    mindset(i think it is because I am not a programmer, and always wanted
    to make an application with menues and such, Cando allowed me to do so)
    								bill

    re .34, .35 and descriptions in others.
    
    Thanks
    
    Because I haven't tried it yet I am not sure of how it will end up. 
    
    The sort of thing I had in mind was to present some sort a tree to
    start with (click to select - no problem). This would expode (maybe) to 
    a discussion about this arm. Selection now maybe on key words. Maybe
    off to iff pix or another tree etc etc. The key thing I want to portray
    is a totaly unstructured way of perusing the family genealogy,
    regardsless of the rigid heirarchy in it.
    
    From reading mag articles I had figured CANDO was probably the closest.
    Now I am not so sure becuase of some of the discussions here (eg .36)
    
    I guess because I am not sure of what I want I simply develop my
    application to suit what facilities I have available. I would however
    like to know that the style of what I want can be accomodated. Probable
    leaning towards CANDO.
    
    regards
    kevin

Re: .36, .37

I'll explain what I meant by dynamic button definition, in case the author of
the note does want to try it.

The basic idea is to have buttons or "hit boxes" defined and layed out on the
screen at runtime of the application, rather than statically defined as part of
the script. This would allows them to respond appropriately to variations in the
data.

For instance, if Ma and Pa only had one daughter, the screen would graphically
display that as the full tree, with only one tree "leaf" available for
expansion. Now, if that little person grew up and had twelve kids, the expansion
of her "node" should display a different set of buttons, in response to the
different data content.

While you can indeed define a wide variety of different screens and
conditionally display the one you want, this is kind of "pseudo-dynamic,"
really. I was just thinking of what I saw as the most elegant solution. (BTW,
I haven't yet conceded that AV can't do it! Mebbe I'll give it a shot. Hmm, you
could use the script to run a copy of AV, and then with Arexx.....)

Cheers,
	Bob

    Hmmmm, I believe placeing "Amos the Creator" in the same boat with
    "Amiga Vision" and "Cando" is a mistake.
    All three are powerfull programs for creating applications, however
    Amos is a programing language ment to provide an alternative to "C" or
    "Assembley Language"(although you can tie in assembely language
    routines to the program), but like any other language it has a learning
    curve, depending on wether or not you've programed in basic would
    determine the steepness of that curve.
    Amiga Vision or Cando seem taylor made to provide you with the
    geaneology (sp?) program you're interested in, with a minimum of
    programing know-how.
      I'd say Amos is more flexible for creating different types of programs
     in general, but for the mentioned application (genealogy), Amiga-Vison
     or Cando will provide you with Quick Proffessional results.
    
    								Ed

Re: .38, etc.

� The basic idea is to have buttons or "hit boxes" defined and layed out on the
� screen at runtime of the application, rather than statically defined as part of
� the script. This would allows them to respond appropriately to variations in the
� data.

    You could have "pseudo-dynamic" hit areas with CanDo, that is, you
    would need to define the areas ahead of time but handle the dynamic
    part through the script. For example, the hit areas can be "invisible"
    to the user until a certain condition is met and then made visible by
    overlaying a brush onto the hit area. Of course, the script would be
    invoked everytime the user clicked on the hit area, but you would
    simply have the script just ignore it until the conditions were
    correct. This way, you could have "generic" cards for different
    functions, with the restriction that the base structure for a certain
    card would be mapped ahead of time.

� For instance, if Ma and Pa only had one daughter, the screen would graphically
� display that as the full tree, with only one tree "leaf" available for
� expansion. Now, if that little person grew up and had twelve kids, the expansion
� of her "node" should display a different set of buttons, in response to the
� different data content.

    Using the latter scenario as an example, when the main "tree" was
    displayed, the script would figure out how many "leaf" brushes to
    display dependant on the data passed to it. The hit areas themselves
    would have to remain fixed so you would have to set limits on the
    number of "leaves" that could be displayed. This would make it a little
    less generic, but a large majority of family trees could use the same
    deck. Come to think of it, you could handle the "overflow" with a
    special hit area that would call an additional card.

    Hope this make some sense...

    Pete

The "family tree" is a good example of looking at these kinds of applications
builders - it can be fit into the paradigm for any of them. We've had someone
talk about CanDo, so I'll add Thinker and AV (comments on better ways to
do it in AV encouraged - I'm still getting into this).

For Thinker, the tree would live in one document. Each person in the tree
would be a single branch, probably with no subordinate statements (IFF
images would be a good candidate for those, as well as comments that aren't
appropriate for the main statement). That statement would look like:

(Joe Ancester) Jan 21, 1935. Parents <George Ancester> and <Mary Ancester>
Married to <Jane Ancester>, children <George Ancester>, <Jill Ancester>, and
<Jerome Ancester>.  Second wife <Anne Ancester>, no children. Random text
about Joe Ancester, mentiong the company he founded with <John OtherAncester>.

The <>'ed text could be done that way, or it could be set up in a different
typeface, underlined, or even colors. I'd be tempted to code it - parents
in one color, spouses in a second, children in a third, and random other people
underlined. Clicking on any of them with the mouse allows you to look at that
persons entry, either in the current window, or any already open window, or
in a new window. You then get to move through this list using arrows or links.

For AmigaVion, I'd use the "book" metaphor; each person getting one page
having parents names and a scrolling text box of other information, with
pages following having lists of spouses and children. Parents, Children and
Spouses in the lists would be buttons to take you to the appropriate page
for that person. I can't see any way to allow for other people who are
associated that person, but not in a predetermined manner. After the last
list page, the "next page" button gets you the next person,for however you
want to define next. This book metaphor allows for reading sequentially, as
well as browsing by name, and keeps the number of screens you need lower.

The inability to provide links for people not directly related, but attached
in some way is why AV doesn't provide a real hypertext system. For AV,
you have to plan all the links out in advance; they can't appear to suit
the data. Worse yet, readers have no way of adding them when it's appropriate;
you have to go back and tweak the script.

Oh yeah - it's possible to combine the two approaches into one. AV could start
a Rexx script, which would get the statement for that person from thinker,
parse it and set variable values in AV as appropriate, etc. Lists would be
a pain, but that's only because the Rexx interface in AV is a waste.

	<mike

    I'm glad I put this one in - it has attracted some real good discussion
    (well to me anyway)
    
    I like the idea of AV because with C= bundling it I have to believe
    there will be a heap of applications starting to come out soon that use
    it. CANDO was my initial choice as from what I had read it was quite 
    close to the Apple Hypertext and I figured it would do what I wanted
    with what I know of that product.
    
    From what I am now reading I think AV may get the nod.
    
    It's interesting to look back at this notes file and consider the
    notes with larger replies as indication the relative degree of interest
    - this is now a respectably large one and is effectively for a new
    style of professional product. I would appear on the surface anyway
    that more and more of this product type will hit the market, and with
    good ones on the AMI (and the bundling by C=) that the AMI should grow
    in the professional market. Here's hoping.
    
    regards
    Kevin

On the topic of genealogy applications (as opposed to what to use and how to use
it to write one), you might want to look at A-Gene on one of the new Fish disks.
(I think it was 425.) It looks like it's what you want- unless you really wanted
to "roll your own,"  of course.

Cheers,
	Bob

     I just started U/Loading the Amos Demos I promissed, to Tape:: but it 
    seems to still be having problems... Any alternative areas?
     
     A word about the demo's... 
    Xerxes Revenge.... This is a scrolling demo of a simple shoot'em up and
    demonstrates the speed of Amos's Amal language.
      It is not a complete game.
     Amosteroids..... Another demo of the Amal language, in this one you
    		     must destroy the asteroids with your shield, but be
    		     careful, your shield will run out if you don't use it
    		     efficiently. (nice asteroid sprites!)
    
     You'll have to load up workbench then double click on the Amos Icons
    in order to start the games/demos.
     This first disk is rather large as I included some files the games
    don't need (sorry but I didn't have the time to delete them).
    	As I get better at setting up an Amos runtime disk, they'll
    improve.
    							Thanks, 
    								Ed

    re .42 
    	I am sure their will be many AmigaVision applications surfaceing
    but I wonder how many will require hardware like a laser disk etc..
    Of course there are many cando applications available on the 
    cando bbs, and we know of the many Amos applications that are coming.
    	All in all looks like a great year for any of these applications.
    	On another subject I was looking at the docs for AV and saw a
    a function that would return the frame of an animation.  Anyone know
    how to use this yet. I'd love to take my engine animation,and be able
    to access it frame by frame. Then I could do an interactive quiz on an
    internal combustion engine,and step through the animation TDC,BDC and 
    so on. Or I could have someone click on a hotpoint,and have the engine
    run to that part if it's cycle.
    								bill 

	I'm interested in recieving the monthly Amos newsletter.
	Perhaps someone in the U.K. who subscribes to this newsletter could
	answer the following questions.

	  Will they take Money Orders in U.S. currency?

	  What is 15 pounds in U.S. dollars.
	
	  How is the newsletter?

	  Are the 3D & compiler moduales out yet?
							
							Thanks; 
							Ed

    
    A question about AMOS 1.2
    
    How do you get a listing of your program? There is no save/ascii
    option. If i Try to use LLIST I get one of two error messages
    
    in program  - undefined procedure call
    in direct    - illegal in direct mode.
    
    lprint - hangs the system
    
    Has anyone else had this problem?
    
    brien
    
    

   Does anyone know if the the tutorial book for Amos ever came out?
   It was mentioned in the original Amos program I purchased as being written.
   Seeing how it's a UK outfit,, I figured some of the European Amos users
   could get me an ISBN# or a Title and Author, or a publisher so I could 
   order it.

							Thanks;
								Ed