Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I agree their is a problem. However the solution is to educate the
    readers on proper use of the notes files. I refuse to answer any of the
    download questions,and those that ask about arc etc. My feelings are if
    they want the help,and the info is available, then they should at least
    try to make an effort to locate the information they are looking for.
    	When someone asks questions on "Downloading" it makes me wonder if
    they have even read this notes file before. Even if we cleaned this
    notes file up the condition will persists until people are willing to
    force the issue by not bothering to answer the notes request help on a
    topic that already has several threads going.
    								bill

How about this...

"EVERYONE MUST READ note 1.4 (or whatever) before anthing else" as the 
conference title.

In that note could be some pointers to notes of 'commonly asked questions' such 
as downloading, arc (zoo, lharc, etc), a500 hard drives, etc...

Do a DIR/TITLE="DOWNLOAD" and you could be there for 10 minutes waiting to see 
where to look.

Now don't get me wrong here.  This file is great and the people who use it are 
great, but even I, a fairly experienced noter, have trouble finding info I want 
when I know that it's in here.

Any other suggestions...

Steve

    re .1
    
    The problem is that there are already so many notes and replies about
    downloading (arc, kermit, zoo, lharc, etc...) that it would take
    forever for many people to look through all of them.  You must keep in
    mind that not everyone has a fast network connection to BOMBE:: and in
    many locations the network can be quite slow.  Combine this with the
    fact that the titles of many notes do not acurately indicate the
    contents of the note.
    
    I agree with .0 that this note needs to be cleaned up.  The current
    notes file is the second version and I think we need to go to a third
    version.  Important topics (such as a good downloading note) can be
    carried over the the new version, then with a little more monitoring,
    hopefully can be kept clean.  For a good example of a clean notefile,
    take a look at 4WD.  Judy Kilgore does a very good job of moving
    duplicate notes to their proper placeds (and quite promptly as I have
    found out).
    
    This does not imply any criticism of the moderation of this note.  I
    think the level of activity here necessitates multiple moderators.
    
    Ken

    re .0-.?
    
    i agree. it seems that what we need we don't got, namely a more
    sophisticated notes program, that allows more than one level of
    notes/replies. then we could group the notes/replies into more
    manageable sub-units.
    
    given that we don't have this, i would really suggest we put ALL
    up/download questions into a single topic. to be honest, it's really
    kind of a hassle having to wade thru them all the time.
    
    on the other hand, i'm not volunteering time for the task, so it's
    another case of do what i say, not what i do.
    
    for what it's worth,
    
    ken

    Whatever you do, just warn me if this version of the file is going
    to become unavailable! I have found a WEALTH of info here and would
    want a chance to copy the conference before it vanished.
    
    
    As far as cleanup is concerned; why not just assign keys to all
    the common notes? UP/DOWNLOAD, HARDDISK/CONTROLLERS, FISH, REVIEWS,
    TAPE-UPLOAD... would all be useful catagories.
    
    

I agree that the Notes file needs to be cleaned up...

Several areas that need cleaning up:

1) More people need to delete messages about stuff that is sold.
2) Each game should be reduced to one base note.
3) Outdated product info should be deleted - old price lists.
4) Long files should be pointed to (not entered as a note) - especially if they
   change a lot == for instance - the abel price list.
5) Any thing that has multiple base notes should be combined.

A new edition may be necessary, with the current notes file available read only.

My proposal for the new notes file is to preallocate a lot of base notes for
various Topics... The base note could be a topic definition as in
"This is the for sale topic...please include your name/dtn/whatever"
or it could be a general discussion...

Certain topics like upload/download and the various archive programs could have
general information under the base note.

Archive sites like TAPE:: could have two notes...one for stuff people uploaded
and one for whats where in the other Amiga directories on Tape.

This has been a quick brain dump.  I am available for more discussion and
possibly to help work on a new edition of the notes file.

-----Robert

    
    For what its worth, I suggest that we START by following the line
    suggested in 4117.2   ie. Use Note 1.* as a proper index to common 
    notes topics, or even a consolidation of the top 20 Amiga-at-DEC 
    question areas. Should not be difficult.
    
    Every 500th Topic in the Conference could be a Note pointing back to
    1.0 for the people who start near the end, instead of the beginning.
    
    The virtue of this is its relative simplicity, and wide application.
    
    Even if enough kamikaze volunteers come forward to do their penance
    on the conference cleanup, this still stands a sensible way of managing
    things.
    
    Randall.
    
    
    
    

    Re: .3
    
�    I agree with .0 that this note needs to be cleaned up.  The current
�    notes file is the second version and I think we need to go to a third
�    version.  Important topics (such as a good downloading note) can be
    
    Second version? I don't think so. It may have been converted to VAX
    notes from the old notes11 (or whatever it was called) format, but I
    believe this is the one and only.
    
    I agree with you in that I would rather see a version 2 of this
    conference and have this one write-locked. Even if you were to do some
    housecleaning, (which in itself would be a major task), at the rate it
    is growing doing a DIRECTORY or SEARCH will only get worse. Also, how
    does one decide what goes where or which notes get deleted without
    offending anyone? What will become of all those highly informative
    topics that are titled "This is note nnnn, and I got here first..." ? ;^)
    
    You will still find new users adding "How do I download?" topics to a
    new version of the conference, but they could be tastefully informed
    via a MAIL message (including the contents of their topic) of the
    appropriate note, and then the offending entry removed or relocated.
    As Ken pointed out, this works rather well in some other conferences.
    
    Bruce, I know you probably would rather let us quabble over the
    preferences, but before *this* topic grows too large ;^), could you
    give us a list of "maybe's" and "definitely not's" to argue about
    seeing as any changes initially puts the greatest impact on you?
    
    Pete

    OK, the consensus opinion seems to support starting a new volume.  I'm
    inclined to agree that the time has come to make a fresh start.  Let me
    assure everyone that this volume will be retained, there is a wealth of
    information in here.  Give me a few days to get organized, write up a
    couple of "intro and rules" notes, etc.

    Anybody want to volunteer for the position of assistant moderator?

    
    	Just as a rough estimate... How many blocks does this file take
    up in a text format. ??
    
    I think the "digital's Top Ten Questions" should go along with a 
    digital Gold Disk...
    
    	..... Seriously ..
    
    		A backup saveset of Lharc arc cvtarc etc...with explanation
    and note 9.* the directory.
    
    		And a Amiga version , suitably compressed with lharc vlt
    etc...
    
    		Then whoever is closest to the new noter could copy the 
    first disk for him or her !!
    
    
    			-Pete-

You might concider distributing "read only" copies of the archived file to
various sites around the world. This would greatly speed up searches of the
old conference for them.

john

    re .8
    
    My memory failed me.  Your right, this is the only version of AMIGA.  I
    was probably thinking of the move to BOMBE from where ever it was
    before.  
    
    re .10
    
    I would be willing to volunteer as an assistent moderator.  I have a
    fairly fast link to BOMBE and the new workstations displays rapidly.
    
    
    Ken

    re: .10 "How many blocks does this file take up?"

    FYI - A freshly compacted copy of the Amiga conference file (still in
    "notesfile" format) today occupies 62,409 blocks and contains almost
    66,000 records.

    
    Can copies of the file itself be obtained?

Well Folks, what's the final consensus?

-New Version (archive the old one)
-Clean up
-Intro pointer notes
-Do nothing

?????

Of course, it's all up to the mods and system managers in the end...

Steve

    The final comment is; do nothing.
    Tom

    I think what we should do is write protect this conference and start
    another one.  In the new conference, I think the moderators should set
    up several notes based on the most frequently requested topics much
    like a BBS does with sigs.  For instance:
     
    games/adventure
    games/simulations
    games/arcade
    
    etc. where each of  the above would be the subject of a note.
     
    jk
    

    I think each game should have its own note.  That way people can reply
    with their own comments, etc., about the game, and a dir/title will
    find it.  Come to think of it, this should apply to any program, not
    just games.
    
    Rich

    There is an important problem with this plan.  Notes have multiple
    topics.  If one reply covers two important topics, will it be reposted
    in both places? of course not.  If a discussion under a topic slowly
    transforms into another topic, where do you split the topic?
    
    Notes files are supposed to be multi-modally random access.
    Get at replies through directories, keywords, and markers.
    But everyone has to contribute to keywords.  They have to make the
    keyword for their note or reply.
    
    In other words, trying to organize subjects into sepearate topic notes
    is linear thinking, but conferencing is multi-dimensional.
    The best thing to do is master keywords and markers.  Solve the keyword
    underuse problem and you have mastered networks in the 90's.
    
    Probably the notes server should automatically extract keywords from
    new replies and topics.  That's the missing functionallity from notes.
    
    Tom

>    Notes files are supposed to be multi-modally random access.
>    Get at replies through directories, keywords, and markers.
>    But everyone has to contribute to keywords.  They have to make the
>    keyword for their note or reply.
    

	Yup. I agree wholeheartely! I tried to add a keyword to my 
     review of the DEB2000 board this morning and was rejected due
     to insufficient priv's.

	A plea to the moderator: PLEASE allow unrestricted keyword
     creation! 

	Also, when someone does find a note on a subject that interests
     them, why not add a keyword (after looking at the keyword list)? 
     That way, if they ever need to find it again, it would be faster.

							Rob

    Here's my vote...
    
    -Start a new version, archive this one
    -Add about 5 moderators so that they can keep up with putting notes
     where they belong.
    
    Also, someone should put together a directory and write up a com file
    that would get everything all set to do downloads. (x-modem etc.).  Also,
    someone should have an amiga disk that could be sent to folks who
    wanted everything they need to DL on their amiga.
    (Handshake,uuencode,uudecode... whatever).  This disk could be copied
    for a nominal fee, maybe $2, and sent to whoever wants it.
    
    Steve
    

    The main reason I kept keyword creation restricted was to avoid all the
    redundant ones generated by "creative spelling".  I have always created
    any new keywords immediately upon request.  For the new conference we
    will try open keyword creation to help encourage everyone to use them.
    I guess even misspelled keywords would be better than no keywords.  I
    wish NOTES would ask for confirmation before creating a new keyword so
    simple typos might be caught immediately.

re:.22

    Keywords are only good if they are well thought out. Having everyone
    invent their own skeme might result in 4000 keywords. Also having a
    keyword list 500 notes doesn't work either. I suggest a good list of
    reserved notes and keywords. This set of notes should cover everything
    the new user would ask. I would like to see more notes edited to fill in
    the information rather than just adding more an more notes that cover
    the same stuff. Then after it is clear the edited copy is correct,
    delete the old one.

    I'll start the list. maybe someone will edit this list and extend it.

	Welcome - Here are the quidelines for this note file.
	    Rules about what not to say etc.
	    Rules about deleting your own useless notes and getting moved
		when you don't find the right note.
	    Keyword registration and usage
	Amiga Survey - Who are you and what do you have.
	Online libraries
	How to download
	For Sale >	anything older than ?months should get deleted
	Wanted  /
	Directory
	Available word processors
	Available compilers
	Available Drawing programs
	Available Music programs
	

    I know I'm not exactly following suit here, but ponder this for a mo...

    This might be overkill, but since Notes doesn't currently support a
    heirarchal-type directory structure, how about reserving quite a large
    amount of topics with more detail given to the most commonly asked
    questions (for example):

         Downloading/How-to
         Downloading/Kermit
         Downloading/Wmodem(?)
         Downloading/Xmodem
         Downloading/Ymodem
         Downloading/Zmodem
         Downloading/??????        ; x amount reserved for future protocols
             .
             .

         Uploading/                ; complement of DL'ing
             .
             .

         Terminal Emulators/abc
         Terminal Emulators/xyz
             .
             .

         Memory/SIMM
         Memory/DRAM
         Memory/SCRAM
             .
             .

         Amiga/A500
         Amiga/A1000
         Amiga/A2000
         Amiga/A2000HD
         Amiga/A2500
         Amiga/A3000
             .
             .


    Granted this approach may seem too complex at first, but for those in
    outlying areas and/or with slow links, directories/searches of a few
    hundred notes for the general topic (and then a search of the replies)
    would be faster than for several thousand base notes. The toughest part
    lies in the hands of the moderator(s); the original layout and then
    what to do with notes that involve several elements of each 'topic';
    cross-post within, cross-reference with keywords (or titles or text),
    or ???

    Pete (Lord of Disorganization)

    After giving this some thought I'd like to propose write-locking this
conference and creating a new one. The new conference should either have a long
list of keywords created for general use or allow creation. The idea of several
moderators has merit, as everyone has a fair idea of who are regular
contributors or monitor the conference on a daily basis (I'd be willing to help
as this is my most active conference).

I also lke to suggest the following as a starting point for conference topics.


Welcome
Conference Directory
Survey
For Sale
Items Wanted
Downloading Help
Uploading Help
Archivers (Arc, Zoo, Lharc, Pak, Zip, Warp, Lhwarp, Shar, etc).
Hard Disk & Controllers Topic (Help/Info)
Monitors Topic
Accellerators Topic
Printers
Mail Order Topic
Tape:: Upload directory Topic (TAPE::USER2:[UPLOAD])
Amiga Enet Archives (TAPE:: WJG:: etc)
Fred Fish Directory
Fred Fish Releases/Announcements
The Fred Fish Catalog (the VAX Document version I mean)
Amiga News
DTP & Postscript Topic
Conventions/Gatherings
Publications & Magazines
Product/Game Review (one per product, created as needed)
Video Graphics & Production
Stores & Repair Centers
Announcements
The Amiga Conference Topic
Related Conferences
CBM Topic
USENET Topic
Where is?	(to ask where something can be located)

Topics should be created or "spawned" when it is obvious that the subject
should stand on its own. It's obvious that there have been many notes posted as
a topic to get attention rather than taking the chance of getting lost in
the maze of twisty little notes all different.
    
    Keith 8^)
    

    I've started building the new file, the first 100 topics are already
    "reserved".  I currently have two assistant moderators signed up, and
    we are working out the initial allocation of reserved notes, etc.  Keep
    those suggestions coming!
    
    Re: .23
    I am assuming there will be some moderator activities required to
    maintain reasonable order along with open keyword creation.

    Re: last few

      I've seen the error of my ways - unrestricted keywords would probably
    result in a mess, too... If I could modify my request as follows:
    have a note (similar to the dir/last) that contains the current list
    of keywords, and another note where people could request new keywords
    be added (hopefully, with the note it should be attached to!). This
    would answer my objections to not being able to add keywords, (albeit
    at a cost of more typing), and also keeps control over the keywords.
    And, as the keyword list covers more topics, the requests should get
    fewer!


							Rob

    I don't think it is necessary to post a list of currently available
    keywords because Notes will display it (very quickly) when you ask
    for it.  [ SHOW KEYWORD ]  You can even use this list as a menu to
    locate a keyword with the cursor (>) and hit <Select> to associate
    it with the current note.

>    I don't think it is necessary to post a list of currently available
>    keywords because Notes will display it (very quickly) when you ask
>    for it.  [ SHOW KEYWORD ]  

      Thanks for pointing this out. It's been my experenice that SHOW
      KEYWORD can be very slow, especially on large notesfiles (c.f.
      IBMPC). I just timed it on this notefile, and it took 13 seconds.
      Not bad! Although I wonder how long it would take when there are
      a larger number of keywords...

>    You can even use this list as a menu to
>    locate a keyword with the cursor (>) and hit <Select> to associate
>    it with the current note.

      Great! Another feature I never knew about! How do you move the
      cursor? Up/down arrows seem to be attached to the command line 
      recall feature.

							Rob
      					(wondering what other NOTES
					 features lie hidden :-)

    On the keypad, <2> and <5> control the selection cursor.  This is also
    true for other lists, such as directories and your notebook entries.

    FWIW, I've uploaded a tpu procedure to tape::user2:[upload] which allows
    you to pick items off a directory list and create your own "read list".
    Most useful after having done a dir/title="string" in that it keeps you
    from having to write down the note numbers. You simply add them to the
    read list via kp8, scrolling via the normal kp2 & kp5, then traverse the 
    read list via kp4 (back) and kp6 (forward). Clear the read list via 
    pf1-kp8. Makes my life with directories in notesfiles a *lot* easier. 
    I take no credit for this, got it from a fellow Amiga notesreader in MRO 
    who got it from...

    To use, put it in sys$login and 

	define notes$command sys$login:notes$command.tpu

    File name:

    tape::user2:[upload]notes$command.tpu

    -Dom

Keyword list

	While you can get a list of keywords easily, it is not always apparent,
    especially to a novice, what the keyword is intended to designate.  Having
    an ANOTATED list of keywords would be helpful.

Directory and other large notes

	You may be aware that the DECwindows interface treats large notes in a
    less than intelegent fasion.  It would be helpful if the updates to the
    directory note were only done at some reasonably long interval, like once
    every 500 topics (all right 250?) or 3 months, which ever comes first.

    There is a utility to produce a concordance of a VAXnotes conference
    on the SW_TOOLS_CATALOGUE (I think?).  It's called CONCORD (surprise).
         
    Perhaps this could be run weekly or monthly and the resulting file
    made available for copying.
         
    Peter

    
    define soapbox = on
    
    Last time I tried that from Usenet Amiga Articles I ended up
    with 4 Meg of text to read !!!
    
    		- Nice in theory though -
    
    When you have finished setting the scene for "The Next Generation"
    I think to keep that as a file for mailing to newcomers is a good
    idea.
    
    	If we can decide on a definitive VMS and Amiga Collection of
    utilities I will put them together for downloading..
    
    .Pete.
    #include <std/disclaimer.h>