Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Decided to show your face in this conference then Russell.Hope we
    get an answer to your question.
    TYRONE. S.L.C.(U.K.)
    

    
    
    Ok, Do you have a terminal program for your Amiga?  If not, you'll need
    one, you'll also need a modem, and access to a dail in line at work. 
    You'll have to have an account where you can copy stuff from off of
    tape:: into it for downloading as well.  The executables for the Vax
    can be found on WJG::  
     
    Enjoy!
    

    No I don't have a terminal program; can you recommend one? How much
    is it? Where can I get one?  And the same for a modem would be a
    great help please.  How can I get access to a dial in line and who
    do I see?  I have a couple of VMS accounts, will they do?
    
    Thanks a lot, at last I think I'm getting somewhere!!
    
    Russell.
    

Russell,

There are a million and one ways of doing this.

The cheapest is sneakernet....this is what you do.

Get a VMS machine with enough disk space.

COPY the required files from TAPE:: Use FTSV if possible.

Use SoftPC or PCSA to copy the files from your VAX to an MS-DOS 3 1/2 inch floppy.

Carry your disks home.

Use PCPATCH or CrossDOS to copy the files from the MS-DOS disk to your Amiga.

Unpack the files on your Amiga and Bob's your uncle.

Most if not all of this is covered within this HUGE conference.

Within notes try a dir/title=download and various combinations
including SoftPV etc etc.

IF you need copies of the two AMIGA utilities I have mentioned then
send me 2 disks and I'll copy them for you.

Greg also in the UK Leeds Location Code LZO
BAHTAT::hilton
845 2361

    Greg,
    	thanks alot, but there are still a couple of points. I read
    your note about SoftPC and the location that was given seems to
    be protected.  Could you perhaps send me a copy?  I will have access
    to a DS3100 in a couple of weeks time so I hope to have some joy
    by then.
    	I will take up your offer on the two AMIGA utilities which I
    need, and I will get some disks sent via internal mail either tomorrow
    or or the week after next (I'm on holiday next week).
    	Finally (I think), the files that I found in TAPE:: had different
    extensions, is .ZOO an executable file? If not, what is and what
    do other file extensions mean?
    	If I can pull this off, I may have reason to turn my AMIGA on
    after several months gathering dust because I can't afford software
    for it!!!!
    	Thanks again,
    
    Russell.
    

    Re .0:
    
>   Could somebody tell me what hard/software is needed, what privileges
>   are needed and so on.  I own a humble Amiga 500 with no extra memory
>   and no second disk drive (I'm a YTS student for goodness sake.).
    
    You should be able to do what you want with the addition of a modem. 
    You will REALLY want the second 512KB that the A501 memory/clock (or
    clone) gives you in order to avoid having to do frequent disk swaps. 
    It also makes it practical to create a RAM: disk.
    
    As for software, getting started is the hard part.  There are a number
    of good communications programs available through the network, but you
    need to have a means of downloading the first one OR a friend with an
    Amiga who can give you one on disk.  Life will be much easier if you
    can find the latter (you won't have to master as many things at once).

Russel,  

SoftPC is :

SoftPC version 2.1 for VMS     hadley::dka300:[apps.softpcdecw.version21]

SoftPC for VAX/ULTRIX version 4.0 hadley::dka300:[apps.ultrix.version2vax]

SoftPC for RISC/ULTRIX version 4.0  hadley::dka300:[apps.ultrix.version2risc]

.Zoo and all the others are packed file formats. You need utilities to
unpack them. Zoo is on one of the disks I'll copy for you.

Enjoy!!
G
Greg

The kit at 

SoftPC version 2.1 for VMS     hadley::dka300:[apps.softpcdecw.version21]


has the PAK's world readable. I beleive DEC has a new policy on network
PAK's were you can't just pass the same one around. It is registered to
a particular node (and that is reflected in one of the fields in the PAK
itself!)

How come it's version 2.1 when the savesets are SOFTPC020 ? The date
*is* later than the SOFTPC020 kit I have here...

john

    John,
    
    It's SOFTPC020 'cos that's the way insignia stored it. When you boot
    SoftPC is should say version 2.1
    
    Greg

    Say, what is the lharc for the amiga rather than vms?
    is it lhwarp?
    I havn't transferred anything since december when the plant moved to
    Franklin, but I think I'll try again.  When I figured out how to move
    .arc files, you changed them to .zoo files.  After I figured that out,
    you changed them to .lzh files and we moved which may have changed
    something.  it takes about a month to finally find a sequence of
    operations that will transfer a file, after something has changed.
    Tom

It's still lharc. lhwarp is a warp (disk packer) program using the lharc 
algorhythms.

wjg::amiga:has:


LHARC120.LZH;1           65/66      18-JUL-1990 08:40:23.00  (RWED,RWED,RE,R)
LHARCA99D.LZH;1          85/87       9-JUL-1990 23:07:07.00  (RWED,RWED,RE,R)

 >is it lhwarp?  LHWARP is a different animal, a newer 
 version/style of WARP

 I haven.t updated to the latest, but I think these are the newest
 on WGJ::AMIGA:

 LHARC120.LZH;1          65  18-JUL-1990 
 LHARCA99D.LZH;1         85   9-JUL-1990

 These is a recent note or two that goes into details/preferences. I think
 the A version is "intuitionized". Note that these are packed with LHARC.
 You may need to look on TAPE:: etc. for a .ZOO version, or use the VMS
 LHARC and ZOO to unpack and recreate a .ZOO for downloading.

 >it takes about a month to finally find a sequence of
 >    operations that will transfer a file, after something has changed.
 
 I agree that staying current on logging in and downloading can be time 
 consuming. I have to use four passwords to get to my VMS system. The 
 passwords all change on different schedules, the new lharc isn't necessarily
 compatible with the old etc. etc.
 Dave 

    Firstly, thanks Greg for the programs.  
    	Secondly, I still have a problem....I have copied the files
    SOFTPC022.A, SOFTPS022.B and SOFTPS022.UID from HADLEY:: to my VMS
    account.  Do I now need my system manager to install SOFTPC on the
    system or is there an easier way.  If SOFTPC has to be installed,
    do I have all the necessary files or are there more?
    	I have printed off the SOFTPC_USERS_GUIDE.PS so the system manager
    can follow those instructions.  I'd rather not ask for SOFTPC to
    be installed if there is another way from me to copy VMS files to
    MS/DOS disk on a DS3100.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Russell. 

Be careful--if you are planning to use SoftPC to xfer from the VAX to a
720K MS-DOS floppy via the RX23 in your workstation, IT PROBABLY WON'T WORK!
The RX23 no longer supports writes to 720K disks.  See note 3315 and the SoftPC 
conference (WRKSYS::WS_PC_SOLUTIONS) for more information.  If anyone has 
figured out a way around this, please post it here!

Sam

    
    So as I see it, I'm back to square 1.  That is, I have an Amiga,
    little software and even less cash to by more software.
    	Is there any other way of getting stuff off the network *without*
    having to buy a modem?  How do I stand in the way of bringing my
    Amiga in to work (DEC park)?  How would I connect it up to the network?
    	Alternatively I am trying (with the help of my supervisor) to
    justify me being given a modem to take home.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Russell (the FRUSTRATED one.)
    

Russell,

Slooow down there.

I hazard a guess that there is at least one PC in DECpark, with PCSA on
it and a 3 1/2 inch drive?

If so use PCSA and some MS-DOS to Amiga floppy reader at home.


Don't worry be happy

;^)

    
    Ok, so if you're in DEC park, have a PC with a 3� disk drive, and have
    PCSA installed, please could I borrow it?  
    	Alternatively, can PCSA be `acquired' or does it need lisense etc?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Russell. (a suffering AMIGA owner who merely happens to work for
    Digital)!
    
    

    DEC's PCSA pays royalities to other companies (Microsoft, Rational,
    etc.) out of its license fees, so no it can't be aquired across the net.
    
    However, it can be ordered from the DEC Direct catalog.
    
    dennis
    

    Ask a Sales Rep,, Or track down a Demo Room ...
    
    
    
    Worst Case try broadcasting to the site with "All-In-One" in 'Reader's
    Digest Mode'...
    
    
    
    
    			- Pete -

    So close....yet so far!
    
    I've found a PC with 3� inch drive AND PCSA installed.  Hopefully
    tomorrow I will get something put on to disk.
    	However I'm still a little confused (ok so that doesn't take
    much!), which order do I do everything?
    	I've got some .ZOO files in my VMS account, do I un-ZOO them now or
    on the Amiga?  Then I copy the files to disk via PCSA and thn take the
    disk home.  I have a copy of CrossDOS which Greg kindly copied for me,
    how do I use this?  A complete dunces' guide would be gratefully
    received (We're talking every key press and disk change - remember I
    only have a single disk drive and no extra memory!). 
	
    	Thanks a million,
    
    
    Russell.
    
    

    
    As to where you unpack them is up to you however remember you only
    have about 720k instead of 880k on the Amiga so not all archives fit
    on.
    
    	type login host/username/* or maybe without the /
    
    	This gets you into your vax account then copy file.* a: assuming
    you have a disk in the 3 1/2 and it is designated a:
    
    	Remember Messydos only can cope with 6letter plus 3 extension file
    names. So a lot of files seem invisible until you rename them.
    
    Also you may need an autouser.bat in your login file
    
    eg.. 
     
use N: \\weldis \username %username * 
    
    
    This dies but leaves you in M: which is the default...
    
    to log out type
    
    use m:/d      (use m:/disconnect  I think )
    
    
    Well that is roughly how you do it......
    
    
    		I'm sure someone will tidy this up ....
    
    
    
    			-= Pete =-
    
    

    Yesterday I fomatted an RK23 disk on a PC but I don't think it
    formatted to 720K.  Anyway I copied some files over using XCOPY on
    PCSA.
    	I then took the disk home and tried to copy the disk to Amiga disk,
    that's where the problem arrised.  PcCopy (PCc720) wouldn't work and
    neither would CrossDOS.  
    
    PCc720:  I entered the path name of the amiga disk but the RK23 opened
    as DF0:BAD so I couldn't give a name, so that didn't work.
    	Anyway I decided to try copying files the other way - I formatted
    an RK23 to 720K using PCf720 which worked fine, but when I tried copy a
    .zoo file FROM AMIGA TO PC PCc720 wouldn't read from the diskdrive.  It
    kept asking me to replace disk in DF0.  When I did so, it didn't
    recognise anything.  What am I doing wrong?
    
    CrossDOS: I tried running this from workbench using extended-select but
    it wouldn't try and read the RK23 as the source disk and the
    destination disk was reported as not being a PC disk, so it failed.
    	I also tried it from shell using usins the SOURCE and DEST
    parameters, but again I couldn't give a name for the RK23, how can I
    get round this?
    
    I get the feeling that I'm coming close to success and I will try
    copying some files on to an RK23 formatted to 720K using PCf720, via
    PCSA today.  Do you think this will work?
    	Once I've finally mastered this I vowe to produce a document to
    teach peolple like me, how to copy files off the net on to the Amiga
    without a modem!  It's ridiculous, the amount of time it's taken me -
    and I still can't do it right!!
    
    Thanks alot,
    
    Russell. (Who is brain dead from banging his head against a brick wall
    for the last 2 months!!)
    

>    Yesterday I fomatted an RK23 disk on a PC but I don't think it
>    formatted to 720K.  Anyway I copied some files over using XCOPY on
>    PCSA.
>    	I then took the disk home and tried to copy the disk to Amiga disk,
>    that's where the problem arrised.  PcCopy (PCc720) wouldn't work and
>    neither would CrossDOS.  
 
this works fine for me:

format a floppy on a pc -  FORMAT A:/N:9
(/N:9 says 9 sectors - 720K)

read/wrtie on Amiga using MSH (PD on WJG::).

john   

    
    Could somebody please post here, the instructions for using PcCOPY an
    CrossDOS.
    	Last night I tried copying files from an RK23 formatted to 720k to
    an Amiga disk using both of these applications.  PcCOPY (PcC720) came
    closest as I copied PcCOPY and PcC720 to RAM: and then copied the files
    from the RK23 to RAM:.  I managed to copy a couple of files to RAM: and
    then to Amiga disk, but several of the files were too big to fit in
    RAM:.  Remember I only have a single disk drive and no extra memory.
    	When I tried to copy the files straight to disk using PcC720, it
    would not recognise a disk swap, even if I clicked on the "Change Disk"
    gadget before, during and after clicking on the "Copy" gadget.
    
    Now CrossDOS, I ran this from shell and entered the correct syntax but
    I had an error as destination disk "Empty:" was not a mounted device. 
    I suspect I have to change the S/startup-sequence.  What should it
    contain so it will work with a single internal drive?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    
    Russell. (Who could have been seen in an embarrasing temper last
    night!!)
    

Russell,

Buy/beg/borrow/scrounge a second disk drive. When you start copying
WHOLE disks you spend 80% of your time swapping discs!!

;^)

But seriously, I think in s:startup-sequence there will be a msdos mount
command or something similiar.

IF you copied the disks from me, it should mount A: which is df0: and
B: which is df1: you can change A: and B: to anything you want.


Greg

    Re .24:
    
>   Now CrossDOS, I ran this from shell and entered the correct syntax but
>   I had an error as destination disk "Empty:" was not a mounted device. 
>   I suspect I have to change the S/startup-sequence.  What should it
>   contain so it will work with a single internal drive?
    
    Do you have enough memory that you could copy the file to RAM and save
    a bunch of diskette swapping?  Failing that, once you've Attached DI0:
    (the CrossDOS incarnation of DF0:), the process of copying a file from
    one to the other should be as follows below.
    
    	copy DI0:foo.bar DF0:bar.foo
    
    CrossDOS lets you view the disk AS IF it were an AmigaDOS volume.  For
    example, you can "type DI0:foo.bar" to see a file's contents.  CrossDOS
    can also perform selective filtering of files, stripping high-order
    control bits and/or extraneous 
 characters as it moves data from the
    MS-DOS file to its AmigaDOS counterpart.
    
    	N.B.	One IMPORTANT item called out in the CrossDOS documentation
    		is a patch to the Trackdisk device for single-drive systems.
    		Make sure you apply it before you try to do anything.

    
    
    Break this down into managagable parts...
    
    Create a formatted floppy with Crossdos or better still MSH
    Create a formatted floppy on Whatever.. and copy some files to
    them on the machines they are created on..
    
    	Then take both floppys to a PC and try to read them.. ( dir )
    
    
    		At least you will know where the problem is
    
    	I'll try to ring you tomorrow.
    
    			-  Pete -

    
    
    As promised the MSH: Story for you....
    
    
    
Directory of my MessyDos disk


     c (dir)
       assign                           die
       ignore                           messyfmt
       mount                            

     l (dir)
       MessyFileSystem                  

     devs (dir)
       messydisk.device                 mountlist

  make_MSDos                       return_normal


Make_MSDos and return normal are two script files I created, 
Arp.library exists in my libs: directory of my boot floppy

Contents of make_MSDos
			cd messydos:c
			assign devs: messydos:devs
			assign L: messydos:l
			mount msh: from devs:mountlist

Contents of return_normal
			cd messydos:c
			die msh:
			assign L: Workbench1.3:l
			assign devs: Workbench1.3:devs
			echo "That's all from Messydos Folks !"

Contents of Messydos:devs/mountlist

MSH:	FileSystem = L:MessyFileSystem 
	Device = messydisk.device      
	Unit = 0
	Flags = 0
	LowCyl = 0 ; HighCyl = 79
	Reserved = 0
	Surfaces = 2
	BlocksPerTrack = 9
	Buffers = 5
	BufMemType = 1	/* messydisk needs no chip mem */
	BootPri = 0
	Stacksize = 4096
	Priority = 5
	GlobVec  = -1
	Mount = 1
#



Instructions:
		Boot your normal floppy then insert Messydos:

		cd to messydos:

		execute make_msdos

		Then type list msh:

		and insert your MSDos disk 

		now type list msh: again 


		on the Workbench you shoud have a DF0:Bad and df0:Unnamed

		When you have finished use return_normal



			

		Hope this helps 


			- Pete -
    

    This is terrific - Thanks.
    
    However there does seem to (STILL) be a problem.  When I execute
    make_msdos, it returns an error with mounting a/......and L/.  I'm
    wondering if it's got something to do with the fact that I don't have
    ARP.Library anywhere.  I've checked on CrossDOS and PCCopy but neither
    of these disks have the file.  Where can I get hold of it *OR* what
    does it contain, so I could type it in?
    	I've tried ignoring the error and typing "TYPE MSH:" but it asks
    for volume MSH in drive.  I place an MSDOS disk in df0: but it doesn't
    work.  Could you PLEASE help me solve this?
    
    Regards and thanks,
    
    Russell.
    

    HI
    	arp library is on wjg::amiga:arprel13.*,
    
    	I thought that I put that file on the disk .
    	do a dir df0: all.
    
    	If you still have no joy send me a disk and I'll put it on.
    
    			- Pete -

    
    Hi,
    	thanks for the pointer.  I copied ARPREL13.etc etc to Floppy and
    put it on to Amiga disk.  I then installed ARP so that ARP.LIBRARY
    exists in the libs: directory of my boot floppy.
    	The process now gets one step further, that is the mounting of MSH:
    is fine _BUT_ when I type "LIST MSH:" I get the error:
    
    "Can't examine "MSH:" : Error code 205"
    
    Has anybody got any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Russell.
    

    Ok, now I'm entirely convinced that I need a second disk drive, however
    last night I was using PCc720 to copy BOINGTHROWS.ZOO onto Amiga disk. 
    This worked fine, yet when I came to un-ZOO it, I ran out of disk
    space!  BOINGTHROWS is only about 400 blocks, so how on earth do I
    un-zoo it?  And HOW do you download stuff with 1000+ blocks?
    
    
    Cheers,
    
    Russell.
    

    Hmm .. sorta like trying to drive 400 miles non-stop in a car with a 20
    gallon tank that only gets 10 miles to the gallon.
    
    Enter the hard disk drive ... 

    	If you have 1 meg of memory, you can copy the archive and ZOO to
    the RAM: device. Then put a blank floppy in df0: and
    
    CD df0:
    ram:ZOO e// ram:<file>.zoo
    
    
    If it wants you to disk swap, you will have to figure out what commands
    it is using and make them resident.
    

	My sympathies.  I've only one drive at the present and some of the 
    bigger Fish Disks have been a real pain...

	My first cut at this for really big down loads consisted of the 
    steps with three diskettes.

    1.	Set-up - one diskette with executables on it, including zoo.  One with
	the archive to be unpacked.  One initialized to receive the contents of
	the archive.  Call them C0:, S0: and T0:

    2.	CD T0:

    3.	ZOO x//O S0:xxxx

	You will have to change disks 8 times for each file in the archive.
    (Verrry short files may only require 6 times, long files will require a
    lot more.)

	If you have space for a fair size RAM disk and a printer, the following
    is quite a bit faster -

    1.  Get a hard copy of the archive contents.

    2.	CD RAM: then ZOO x//O S0:xxxx

    3.	When the RAM drive fills up, kill ZOO and COPY CLONE the files to T0:,
	delete the files from RAM: and ZOO x//O S0:xxxx <next files from list>.
	Repeate this step until all files are transfered.

	LHARC is similar but uses different switches.

	If you don't have enough memory or an extra drive, you are stuck with
    the original method.

In theory you should be able to download directly to pipe:file.zoo and
then simultaneously do a zoo e// pipe:file.zoo from somewhere else.
I've never tried it so you might have to play around getting the right
set of programs to work with this, but it should work.

What you would do is:

1.  Format a disk and cd to it.
2.  issue a zoo e// pipe:file.zoo command.
3.  Start the download with the destination as pipe:file.zoo

The extraction should happen on the fly.

-steve

Re using a PIPE:

	Unfortunately it is not easy to convert theory to practice.  I've
    tried several ways but have failed so far.  It may be my set up or
    it may be my lack of experience.

	The part with ZOO e// PIPE:wxyz seems to work.  I played around with
    this a little and settled on RUN ZOO x//O PIPE:wxyz.ZOO.

	The problem comes with the down load.  I'm using VLTjr and XPRZMODEM
    I can't get it to load into PIPE:.  I tried to change directory both to
    PIPE: and to PIPE:wxyz.ZOO and it refused to do that.  I tried setting
    a logical named PIPE to the directory containing the file and did a
    SZ PIPE:wxyz.ZOO.  It started stuffing it in the default direcory (RAM:).
    I tried SZ -f PIPE:wxyz.ZOO to send the full path name.  I tried 
    SZ -f - PIPE:wxzy.ZOO.  Neither seemed to have any different effect from
    the plain SZ command.  SZ -f- PIPE:wxyz.ZOO gave me the usage verbage.

	Unfortunately, I haven't found all the documentation for XPRZMODEM,
    SZ or VLT so I have not been able to RTFM.  (I have some of the VLT
    documentation, but it does not seem to help much.)  Suggestions on how
    to specify the download target would be appreciated, as would a pointer
    to the ZMODEM documentation.  (I did do a DIR/TITLE=ZMODEM/ALL and found
    a few references and followed some of the more likely ones.  I skipped
    a number that did not seem likely, so if you remember a particular note
    that might help, please point me to it.  I'd even take a lecture on SZ
    usage as long as it is more informative than the very brief summry you
    get when you type SZ by itself.)


Re disk swapping:

	Is there any way to get Amiga DOS to buffer either a lot of blocks
    read ahead or a lot of blocks for write behind.  Either would reduce the
    wear and tear on my floppy drive, the floppy diskettes and my arm.
    ADDBUFFERS does not seem to have a lot of impact beyond consuming chip
    RAM.  Could PIPE: and COPY be used to build a nice big read-ahead cusion?
    (I saw a note that there might be a problem with the ARP version of COPY in
    this regard.)

    This sounds a REALLY clumsy way of going about things but......
    
    What I have thought of doing is un-ZOOing a file up until the point
    where the disk is full, then make a note of which files have been
    extracted.  Then go back to VMS and un-ZOO the whole lot, now just
    re-ZOO the files which didn't come out last time.  Then take the new
    .ZOO file to the AMIGA and un-ZOO it on another disk.
    	Hopefully all the files will be extracted.  Finally bung all the
    files onto one disk and Bob's your uncle (hopefully?).
    	My theory is that the .ZOO file is partly responsible for the
    filling up of the disk - so if you with this method the files are
    smaller and there are less to un-ZOO at a time.
    	I haven't actually tried this yet but I'll try it over the weekend.
    
    
    Wish me luck,
    
    Russell.
    

Did you try selecting the "external options" menu.  This will bring up a
window of options to set for xprzmodem.  On the lower right is a text
box you can enter the destination device:directory.

-steve

Re .39:

	I tried selecting External Options and nothing came up.  I must be doing
    something wrong there.  I also could not get the console window to come up
    either.

	I did find some documentation on XPRZMODEM that indicates that the
    behaviour observed is expected with the default settings and that I need to
    change the 'P' option to point to the PIPE:.  I'll try playing with the
    SC -C option to see if I can change things with that and with the 
    environment variables.  I'll try that tonight, after my kids are in bed.
    (One of them is having a birthday, so I expect that will be later than 
    usual.)

	It may be that VLT and VLTjr require CONMAN installed to get all the
    features working properly.  It looks like I will need to do some very
    carefull restructuring of my boot disk to get all the pieces I need to do
    a down-load without acting like a one armed man in a creap hanging contest.

Re .38:

	It would be nice to keep as much of the status information as possible
    intact.  There is also the fact that the archives are compressed.  It takes
    less time to down-load an archive than it would to down-load all the files
    in the archive, at least in most cases.  The multi-tasking solution seems
    to have the most promise so far and looks like there are only a few kinks
    left to be worked out.  It might even be possible to get it working on 
    minimaum A500 configuration.

The early version of VLT didn't support all the external options very
well.  What version are you using?  The latest is something like 4.824...

-steve

    Also remember that the EXTERNAL OPTIONS depend on the protocol
    section. You must have selected XPRZMODEM as the external protocol
    via the pulldown menu before the EXTERNAL OPTIONS will show anything,
    
    Keith

Re VLT:

	V4.8?? so it seems to be the latest and greatest.  ZModem was
    selected and saved as default.  Problem turned out to be that the first
    level of pull down menues is event driven while the option menu is not.
    I was trying to activate it at the wrong time.  If VLT is idle, the menu
    does come up and you can specify PIPE:.  You also need to change it so 
    that it 'overwrites existing file'.

	However, ZOO does NOT like being fed through a PIPE.  After trying
    to feed it from XMODEM and having it barf, I tried feeding it from the
    floppy with a PIPE acting as a read-ahead buffer and it blew up, not the
    exact same way, but very similarly.  Either the PIPE is doing something
    odd or ZOO is.  The next Fish Disk up loaded in LZH format will be subject
    to an attempt to down load it in this fashion.  That will give another data
    point in identifying where the problem is by using a different archiver in
    the chain.  I tried using PIP: but did something wrong with it.  I know it
    was me because the examples from the ARP book gave an error message about
    failing to open the pipe.  I probably have the wrong MOUNT program.  Again
    it point to the need to restructure my boot disk.  Now if I can only find
    the time to do so...

	Ended up putting some more wear on the floppy eject mechanism...

Re: .43

>However, ZOO does NOT like being fed through a PIPE...  Either the PIPE
>is doing something odd or ZOO is.

Pipes don't support random access.  I could very easily believe that
dearchiving programs could try random access I/O:

	"Read the directory in the archive.  Oh, the first file starts
	 at offset 674.  Let's seek() to 674 and start to unpack it..."

>>>Pipes don't support random access.  I could very easily believe that
>>>dearchiving programs could try random access I/O:

>>>	"Read the directory in the archive.  Oh, the first file starts
>>>	 at offset 674.  Let's seek() to 674 and start to unpack it..."

This might also explain why zoo needs STREAM_LF type files.  VMS doesn't
support seek() on record files.  I bet ARC would work since on VMS that
wants a variable length record file and therefore it probably doesn't
seek().  Unfortunately ARC doesn't maintain the full directory structure...

Oh well.  Maybe lharc or warp...

-steve

    LHARC also uses seek (I believe - Steve Drew knows...) so it won't help
    either. 
    
    ZOO does use fseek() to move around in the file. Stream_LF is a
    requirement under VMS for this to occur properly. 
    
    Best bet is to get another drive (I don't think you will regret it).
    
    John
    

	I was afraid of that.  I'm looking forward to Christmas...

	I am having trouble with unpacking .zoo files using a method
	decscibed in this note. When I list zoo file on the Amiga I get :-

	  Directory Entry Invalid (mainly)  OR  Invalid or Corrupt Archive

	I have only been successsful in breaking open two files out of
	twelve that I tried. Would be grateful if someone could put me right.
	The method I am using is :-

        Format disk on the Amiga with PCF720.

	Copy the files on to this disk using a Workstation and PCDisk :-
                       Run PCDisk
		       use a: disk$dua2:
		       import <file>.zoo

	Copy the Files on to a disk that has been formatted normally on the
	Amiga, using PcC720 for the copy.

	List the files using zoo on the Amiga.
			dfo:tools/zoo L <file>.zoo 
 
	Alan.
    
                                                      

    You've been caught by the VMS multiple file organization feature again! 
    Most archived files on TAPE:: and elsewhere have record format
    "Stream_LF."  This works properly with most VMS tools including VMS ZOO
    and XMODEM.
    
    PCDisk, on the other hand, wants a record format of "variable length,
    maximum XXX bytes," where XXX is most commonlyl 512.  So, to use
    PCDisk for file transfer, first you must reformat your stream_LF files
    using the command
    
    	cvtarc v filename.zoo
    
    CVTARC is floating around the Easynet -  there are references in other
    downloading notes.
    
    From personal experience, I've found that PCDisk works well.  However,
    some files, can't tell you a pattern, do not convert under CVTARC.  The
    symptom is that the converted file size is much smaller.   So beware
    that the PCDisk route won't work 100% of the time, even though the
    fault is not with PCDisk.
    
    Wes

>    PCDisk, on the other hand, wants a record format of "variable length,
>    maximum XXX bytes," where XXX is most commonlyl 512.  So, to use
>    PCDisk for file transfer, first you must reformat your stream_LF files
>    using the command  "cvtarc v filename.zoo ".
    
     Many thanks for the info  - ain't life sweet!

    
    OK, I've got a follow-up questions to the last few replies...
    
    Santa says there's a real good chance that an A500 with an extra
    512k and a modem will find its way under the tree in a couple of
    weeks, but no second disk drive.
    
    However, I'm currently running a VS2000 under ULTRIX, and I have an
    RX23 on this machine. While I'm reasonably fluent in ULTRIX, I haven't
    a clue as to how to copy stuff off of the EASYNET and write it onto
    the RX23 to take home, nor what to do when I get home (i.e., what's
    a .Zoo file, and where/when do I decompress what and how?).
    Fortunately, we are running DECnet on our ULTRIX time-sharing VAX,
    and the VS2000 has several disks NFS mounted.
    
    Is there a simple procedure or do I have to go through hoops with
    the PCSoft and other MSDOS oddities described in some of the early
    replies?
    
    Thanks,
    
    	Bayard Coolidge
    	ULTRIX CSSE/Amiga neophyte...
    
    

    
    Does anyone want to start over again. I`m a co-op student with Dec in
    Dublin. I don`t know where to start asking. So if theres anyone out
    there who is very patient and knows how to download off the system
    without using a modem I would really apprieciate a step by step key by
    key, word by word lesson. I have an A500 with external 3� inch drive
    512k expansion and printer. I have access to a Vaxmate and a rainbow.
    
                                        Woody ( Russel II) 

    Without an modem, you'll need an access to an PC or an machine using
    3.5 inch disk. (I can only teach you about the PC)
    
    The PC will have to work with PCSA or Pathworks. You will then copy
    stuff from your account (or remote computer) on the PC, and read the PC
    disk (720kb) on your amiga. On the Amiga side you will need a program
    like CrossDos/Dos2Dos/MSH(messydos).
    
    		This was an overall of your course.  
    				Is that alright Russel.
    
    				"Erik Bussink" Alias "Uncle Erik"

    
    I may just be able to get the use of a PC. What is PCSA & Pathworks.
    Can I get these off the system. Also can I get
    crossdos/dos2dos/msh(messydos) off the system.
    
                                             Woody (Billy)

    PCSA or Pathworks are Digital products, they shouldn't be to heavy to
    find. Check if the PC has already an Ethernet port in the back. 
    
    PCSA & Pathworks, are has I understand, products to net PCs with
    VMS/Ultrix machines. Then you can use the PC as a terminal on your main
    computer.
    
    About Dos2Dos/MSH(messydos), you should find somebody with the programs
    on amiga disks. You won't be able to download them, because you need
    them for downloading. (it's like bitting it's tail)
    
    						'Uncle Erik'

Woody,

There is a fairly strong chance I'm coming over to Ireland in the next
6 weeks. If you can wait I'll bring you the business. If you can't mail
me some disks and I'll put msh on for you.

Greg Hilton@lzo

:^)

If you haven't got PATHWORKS I use a floppy on my workstation and
SoftPC to access that. See WRKSYS::WS_PC_SOLUTIONS for SoftPC kits.
Only really useful is you have an RX23.

Greg

    
    
    This is Woody again. I still haven`t been able to download. I have
    copied some software to my account including PCDISk. I can use either a
    VT3100 or a Vaxmate to download. What I need to know, have the 3� disks
    to be IBM formatted. So could some kind soul out there please help.
    
                                              Woody

    Just to note ;-) the has been a (quite) long time, since a newcomer
    asked for help for downloading stuff !!! ;-)
    
    (I'm not talking about formatting disk ;-))
    
    								Erik

    
    So can you help me download please. I`m leaving DEC on Friday.
    
                                            Woody

    Try formatting your diskettes to "double density" IBM format, 720 K. 
    It's better to do this on your Amiga -- disks formatted on the
    high-density drives on DEC workstations are not always readable.  The
    rest of your procedure, PCDISK on the workstation and PCCOPY or
    CROSS-DOS on the Amiga, looks reasonable.
    
    Wes

    I don't know anything about VS3100 stuff. 
    
    	To format on a PC, check that your disk has some plastic-'tape' on
    the hole on the floppy.
    
    			+---------------+
    1.44/.720 kb hole ->|o	       o|<- read/write protect tab	
    			|	        |
    			|	      	|
    			|  +--------+	|
    			|  |	    |	|
    			|  |	    |	|
    			+--+--------+---+
    
    
    	MSDOS > format a:/n:9/t:80/v
    and insert the disk (the /v is to name the volume).
    
    						Erik 

    
    
     The PC format on my version of extras only works for 5� inch disks.
     If I`m copying files will the copying not format the disks anyway ?
     The disks I`m using are double density.
    
                                           Thanks Woody  

     > If I`m copying files will the copying not format the disks anyway ?
    
    	Not on a PC. On a PC you need to format the disks first.
    
    
     > The disks I`m using are double density.
    
    	The Amiga can read ONLY 720kb disk in MSDOS format, with utilities
    	like MSH,CrossDos,Dos2Dos. So you can use double density disks, but
    	if you use high density, close the small 1.44 hole. see -.X
    

    
    
       So unless I PC format the disks on the A500, I cannot download.
    
    

    There is a patch program for making those WB1.3 PCxxx programs work
    with 3.5" disks.  Look on the fish disks for something called pcpatch
    I think.  Or buy 720K preformatted disks.  Staples has them for only a
    few dollars more than unformatted.
    
    -steve

Re: .65

>    There is a patch program for making those WB1.3 PCxxx programs work
>    with 3.5" disks.  Look on the fish disks for something called pcpatch


On Fish Disk 218:

PcPatch		Patches for PCCopy and PCFormat from the EXTRAS disk,
		to allow reading, writing, and formatting of any kind of
		MS-Dos style disks, including 720K 3.5" diskettes.  Binary
		only. This is an update to the version on disk 163.
		Author:  Werner Guenther

The file tle""::uport$:[rmeyers.trade.amiga]fish.txt is a normal text
file that contains a listing of all the Fish disk contents.  Loading it
into your favorite editor is a great way to search for programs like
this.

    
    Didn`t download, thanks for all your help. Leaving today (8*(
    
                                       Woody