Conference hydra::amiga_v1

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Article 2749 of comp.sys.amiga.hardware:
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From: [email protected] (Stuart Pierce)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: flicker fixer and 2.0
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 27 Jul 90 06:16:02 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA
Lines: 8

Microway's advertisements indicate that the FlickerFixer is compatible with
2.0 and all the new video modes.
I think it is still useful.  You can get a flicker-free 640 x 480 x 4-color
display using the new chips under 2.0, but that is going to use all of the
available chip RAM bandwidth.  With the FlickerFixer, you can set up a 640 x
480 x 4-color interlaced display that doesn't flicker and leaves you bandwidth
to spare.  
                                                         Stuart Pierce





(this is via email - john)


 
   If you just got a blank message from me, I apologize for the inconvience.
I had a screw-up with the VMS mail system.
 
   Anyway, the flickerFixer should work fine with AmigaOS2.0.  If you are
talking about the new modes provided by the Super Denise, the flickerFixer
will not support any of these.  From what I've heard, it will only support
the old resolution modes, and all of the new ones (including the PAL
resolution modes, if you put your machine into PAL mode, and the Super HiRes
and Productivity modes) will confuse it.
 
   I have also heard rumors that Commodore is developing a stand-alone
Display Enhancer for the Amiga 2000 which will do the same job as the
flickerFixer, but which will de-interlace all of the new modes.  Stay
tuned....
 
 
                                  -MB-
 
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From: Marc Barrett <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: flicker fixer and 2.0
To: wjg::guineau
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
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    I asked this very same question quite some time ago when I was at the
    memory location. They showed me a memo from the guy that designed the
    flickerfixer. It said that the flickerfixer will work exacally like
    the one in the 3000, and will support all the modes that it does. The
    only difference is, that some of the new modes (dont remember which
    ones) are not even supported (or properly handled) by the 3000's
    deinterlacer, but on the 3000, these will automatically bypass it.
    Therefore, on the 3000, you can just hook up your multisynch monitor
    to the VDE connector whose output will be switched appropriately.
    However, on a 2000 with a flickerfixer, you would have to have a
    manual switch which would switch your monitor between the standard
    video output and the flixkerfixer output and do the switching yourself.
    I already have such a switch, so that would be that much of a problem.
    Besides, how often would you switch between modes.
    
    I have played with the 3000 at The Memory Location several times, and
    it is my opinion that the new modes are not that useful. The resolution
    is great, but the degradation that it has on system performance due
    to the bandwidth needed to memory is not worth it. I was blown away
    when at the 640 X 480 non-interlaced mode, I started a CLI and typed
    dir. The display was very slow when it had to scroll! I mean REAL slow.
    I then put it in the 640 X 400 interlaced mode (which didn't flicker
    because of the deinterlacer) and tried again. No problems, display
    was very fast.
    
    I think that the best mode on the 3000 will be the standard 640 X 400
    (which can be extended up close to 480 i would imagine) interlaced
    mode. You don't need the super denise for that. So, I don't know
    if it will really be worth upgrading to the super denise.
    
    Any of you 3000 owners out there notice the degradation in performace
    when running in any of the super modes?
    
    Frank
    

There was later raised a question on PAL mode and whether the FF will handle
that.  The list below pretty much answers the current questions.




Article 2777 of comp.sys.amiga.hardware:
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From: [email protected] (Peter Selverstone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: flicker fixer and 2.0
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 28 Jul 90 15:36:14 GMT
References: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Peter Selverstone)
Organization: Spy Pond Systems
Lines: 183


In article <[email protected]> [email protected] writes:
>I've been thinking about getting a Multisync monitor (in anticipation of
>2.0) and 
>a flickerfixer (since they're getting cheap!)
>
>My question is: Will the flicker fixer still be "usefull" with AmigaDOS
>2.0? And will
>it deal properly with it's new/old modes?

Here is the complete text of a file of answers to frequently asked
questions regarding flickerFixer, 2.0 and the ECS:

=====================================================================

                                                       May 2, 1990


flickerFixer Questions and Answers
------------ --------- --- -------

Why should I install a flickerFixer in my Amiga 2000?

   The flickerFixer will give you nearly the same display capabilities
   as the new Amiga 3000.  It's been doing that for over two years.
   It is the only compatible way to significantly enhance the display
   of the Amiga 2000.


What is 2.0?

   Version 2.0 (it used to be called 1.4) of the Amiga operating
   system is great!  It can take full advantage of the overscan
   display of the flickerFixer.  FlickerFixer is compatible with 2.0
   which is scheduled to be available for the A2000 in September
   1990.


What is the Enhanced Chip Set?

 Also called: The ECS
              Non-interlace chips
              New chips
              New Agnus and new Denise
              Super Agnus and Super Denise

   The ECS is Commodore's upgrade to the Agnus and Denise chips
   of the A500 and the A2000.  The new Agnus chip is available
   now and the new Denise is expected to be available when 2.0
   is released.  As of May 1990, the Amiga 2000 was being shipped
   with the new Agnus but NOT the new Denise.

   flickerFixer IS compatible with the ECS. 


If I install the ECS, will flickerFixer stop working?

   No.  It may be necessary to readjust the phasing when an old Agnus
   is exchanged for a new one, but the flickerFixer will work fine.
   See the manual for instructions on phasing adjustment and call
   MicroWay tech support at (508) 746-7341 if you need any help.

   flickerFixer will continue to operate exactly as before after
   the new chips are installed.


What about the "new graphics modes"?  Isn't flickerFixer obsolete?

   Not at all.  When 2.0 and the new Denise are released, there
   will be two new modes.  These are "superhires" and "productivity"
   mode.  All the existing modes will be just as they are now.

   "Productivity" mode is a non-interlace 640 x 400 mode that,
   like the flickerFixer, requires a high scan rate monitor.
   It doesn't flicker, but it is limited to 4 colors from
   a palette of 64.  Moreover, bandwidth limitations will cause
   significant chip memory interference when the mode is used
   with 4 colors.  The slowdown will be similar to what is currently
   experienced in 16 color hi-res modes.  To obtain performance
   equivalent to the current 4 color workbench, "Productivity"
   mode must be limited to 2 colors.

   Since flickerFixer has no color limitations and does not slow
   down the computer, "productivity" mode is NOT a replacement for
   flickerFixer and flickerFixer owners would generally not have
   a use for it.

   "Superhires" is a 1280 x 200 (non-interlace) or 1280 x 400
   (interlace) mode that does not require a high scan rate monitor.
   It is also limited to 4 colors out of 64 and has the same
   performance problems as "productivity" mode when used with 4
   colors.  This mode will not display properly through the 
   flickerFixer, it may appear to work, but actually only every
   other pixel is visible.  This behavior is EXACTLY the same as
   the Display Enhancer in the Amiga 3000.


If I plan on taking advantage of all of the new display modes
will I have to give up my flickerFixer?

   No.  You NEVER lose any capabilities when you install a flickerFixer
   in the Amiga 2000.  It has a separate output connector and does not
   modify the signals on the standard Amiga 23 pin RGB connector.
 

How can I use the new display modes if I have a flickerFixer?

   Just connect your monitor to the Amiga 23 pin RGB output.
   If desired, a standard 9-pin switchbox can be set up to switch
   a multiscan monitor between the flickerFixer and the Amiga
   output connectors.  Check with your dealer (or Redmond Cable).


What about the 640 x 800 "Interlaced Productivity" mode?

   This is just the interlaced version of the 4 color productivity
   mode.  It requires a high scan rate monitor and it will flicker
   on that monitor.  There is no way to cure this with standard
   31.5 KHz monitors.  Set up a switchbox if you want to use this
   mode.


What about the new 1280 x 800 mode?

   It doesn't exist.  Someone must have gotten confused.


What about the new 1008 x 800 mode?

   This resolution isn't actually related to the ECS, but to the
   A2024 and Moniterm monitors.  These are special scan converting
   monochrome monitors which are capable of 4 level grey scale.

   Since the Moniterm monitor uses a video slot card, it cannot be
   used with the flickerFixer.  The A2024 monitor (also called the
   Hedley monitor) connects to the 23 pin RGB connector, so it will
   be possible to use it on a 2000 with a flickerFixer installed.


Do I need a flickerFixer for an A3000?

   No.  The Video Display Enhancer that Commodore built in to the
   A3000 is very similar to the flickerFixer and performs the same
   functions.


Can I use an NTSC encoder like the A520 with the flickerFixer?

   Yes.  Just plug the encoder into the 23 pin RGB connector and
   you will have simultaneous NTCS composite and non-interlace VGA
   frequency video. The flickerFixer has its own 9 pin output
   connector and operates in parallel with the Amiga display. 
   FlickerFixer never modifies the Amiga video signal.

   If you use a genlock rather than an encoder, then the flickerFixer
   display will not be available unless you have installed the genlock
   compatibility option.  However, a genlock can still be used while
   the flickerFixer is installed in the video slot.


What does the Genlock Compatibility option do?

   The function of the Genlock Compatibility option is to allow the
   flickerFixer display to be used simultaneously with an external
   genlock.  While there is no problem using a genlock on a 2000 with
   a flicker fixer installed in the video slot, the monitor attached
   to the flicker fixer cannot be used at the same time as the
   genlock unless the compatibility option is installed.


I use a VGA card with the Bridgeboard.  Can I use the
same monitor on it and the flickerFixer?

   Yes.  With the right cables and switchbox this works fine.  Your
   dealer or Redmond cable should be able to help get the bits and
   pieces.

======================================================================
-- 
Peter Selverstone ...{mit-eddie,pyramid,datacube}!mirror!ssi3b1!pselver
Spy Pond Systems  [email protected]
Arlington, MA     BIX:pselverstone   PLINK:pselverst   CIS:72527,2652

Re: .2

>I was blown away when at the 640 X 480 non-interlaced mode, I started a
>CLI and typed dir. The display was very slow when it had to scroll! I
>mean REAL slow.

The new productivity modes use the same amount of memory bandwidth as
the 640 pixels by 200 scanlines by 16 color mode.  The 640 by 16 color
mode is the Amiga mode that uses the maximum memory bandwidth in pre-ECS
Amigas:  1.6 times the memory bandwidth of HAM.

Ironically, I think the blitter is what made the system scroll slowly.
I think that the chip memory in the 3000 runs at the processor's speed.
That means that there is plenty of memory bandwidth (as much as seven
times a 2000!) for doing high res graphics.  However, the custom chips,
although enhanced, run at the same old 7+ megahertz.  I believe that
the "cycle stealing" going on wasn't affecting the 68030's access to
chip memory much, but that it was hindering the blitter's access.
If the '030 scrolled the window rather than the blitter, the graphics
probably would have been faster.

I sure hope that Commodore is hard at work on a 32 bit, fast clock cycle
version of the custom chips.

    Re: .4
    
    While your're right that it's basically the blitter which slows things
    down here, your memory bandwith calculations are a bit too optimistic.
    ;-)
    According to Dave Haynie, the CPU->ChipMem bandwith has doubled on the
    A3000 compared to the A2000. If I remember correctly (gee, I hate that
    phrase, one of these days I'll store my library here at DEC), the
    ChipMem still runs a 7.odd MHz, but can be accessed from the CPU side
    32bit wide.
    
    Cherio,
    
    <CB>

Re: .5

Thanks for the correction.  I'd remembered that chip memory performance
had improved.  I remembered that the chip memory bus (for the CPU) was
now 32 bits wide.  I thought (maybe just hoped) that the chip memory
was also running at CPU clock speed.

For those of you who wonder what <CB> and I are talking about:

Chip memory on the 3000 is on a 32 bit bus when accessed by the CPU.
Chip memory on the 2000 is on a 16 bit bus.  Therefore, the chip memory
bandwidth (how much memory you can access in a given time period)
is twice as much for the 3000 as the 2000 since the 3000 chip memory
produces 32 bits in the same time that the 2000 chip memory produces
16 bits.

I'd made the mistake of assuming that the 3000's chip memory ran at
the same speed as the 3000's CPU clock.  In other words, I'd assumed
that the 3000's chip memory ran at 25 megahertz (or 16 megahertz
for the "slow" model).  Chip memory on a 2000 runs at 7.1+ megahertz.
If I'd had the clock speed right, the 3000's chip memory would
gain another factor of 3.5 speedup over the 2000's chip memory.

Multiply 3.5 by 2 to get my overestimate in .4.