Conference hydra::amiga_v1

try Microprocessors Unlimited. I can look up the number but there in Beggs
Oklahoma (I think). They have the LOWEST prices and ship Express mail
so you order it today and get it tomorrow - literally.

I just bought 4 meg of 1m x 1 70ns DRAM's for $320.00!

1m x 4 are gonna be EXPENSIVE wherever you go.

john

                       Microprocessors Unlimited, Inc.
                       24000 South Peoria Avenue
                       Beggs, OK  74421

                       (918) 267-4961

    Thanks for the info.  I called them and you were right John.  Here is
    their price breakdown.
    
    	$45.00	each  Hitachi dip
    	$58.00  each  Toshiba dip
    	$70.00  each  any ZIP package
    
    Expensive?  That's exorbitant!  Guess I'll have to find another
    memory solution or wait until they're more readily available.
    
    md

    $90/megabyte is only slightly high.  Those prices are not exorbitant.
    I paid Active $90/megabyte for 1*256K DIPs.
    So those prices are OK for 4 * 1 megabyte, which I didn't even know
    were on the hobby market.
    Tom

    
    Were the ZIP chips static column mode or paged mode?
    
    I got 2Mb from Tom Senna's 1Mb DRAM order for somewhere around $140.  It
    would take 4 4x1Megabit chips to make two megabytes = 4 * $70 = $280. Not
    surprising for such new technology, but for my pocket still a little too
    pricey.  Not that I even have an A3000 yet (I'm still thinking about it).
    My wife's a student and the $3039 package deal looks pretty tempting...
    
    - steve

    After figuring it out it is not as expensive as I first thought.(just
    back from vacation...got to get my mind in gear).  $180.00/megabyte is
    about $35-40 dollars more per meg than current "packages" using 256k x
    4 ICs.  
    
    re: -.1  I did not inquire about whether the ZIPs were static column
    mode or paged mode because I am still awaiting information on the
    memory controller that I would put the chips in.
    
    re: -.2  They would have to special order the ICs and-I believe-the price 
    is dependent on quantity ordered.
    
    When I get more specific information on IC type and am ready to place
    an order I will post the costs etc.
    
    m

    I just had 4 megs of 4 megabit paged mode RAMS installed in my 3000 at
    a price $80 per chip ($640 total). If you look around , $75 per chip
    installed shouldn't be a problem. The static column chips are more
    expensive and REALLY hard to come by at least for a while. They are
    what you call new technology. I had mine installed by a dealer rather
    than do it myself, because I tend to sweat alot when I bend pins on a
    $75 chip. Not too mention from what I've heard, it can be a little
    tricky getting them in.
    
    bob
    REFINE::POMEROY
    
    P.S. I though you had to get 4 meg increments when you got 4 megabit
    DRAMS.
    
    

    I need the chips for the new Supra 500XP scsi controller.  They can
    be installed in the controller in 2 Meg increments.  The controller
    will accept ZIPS or DIPS.  Dips are less expensive (at least at
    Microprocessors unlimited) than dips.(see previous notes)  As soon
    as I receive the controller I am going to purchase 4Meg.
    
    mark

    I mean't DIPs are less expensive than ZIPs.

    re: .7
    
>    P.S. I though you had to get 4 meg increments when you got 4 megabit
>    DRAMS.
    
    For some reason I thought the chips were 4 bits wide by 1Mb deep, but
    if they are 1 bit wide by 4Mb deep, then I guess you'd have to get
    4MB at a time.  Come to think of it since the A3000 uses the same ZIP
    sockets for both 1Mb and 4Mb chips they must be 1 bit wide by 4Mb deep.
    
    Those prices should drop sometime in the near future as production
    increases.  I hope they go down as fast a 1 Mb chip prices did.
    
    - steve

RE:.10

>   For some reason I thought the chips were 4 bits wide by 1Mb deep, but
>   if they are 1 bit wide by 4Mb deep, then I guess you'd have to get
>   4MB at a time.  Come to think of it since the A3000 uses the same ZIP
>   sockets for both 1Mb and 4Mb chips they must be 1 bit wide by 4Mb deep.

    Wrong!  It  takes  8 chips 4 bits wide to make RAM memory 32 bits
wide. This is true if it is 256KX4 or 1MX4. This is  what  the  A3000
uses.  The  fast  RAM  must be all the same size and corresponds to a
motherboard jumper.

    It  has  come  to light recently that mixing page mode and static
column ram in the fast memory section of the A3000 can be  very  bad.
This is particularly because the A3000 manual says you can. Well, you
can, but the first bank MUST be page mode - Either DIP or ZIP package
installed  in  Bank 0. This came to light when A3000's began shipping
with Static Column RAM in the fast memory DIP sockets.

	-SES

>    Wrong!  It  takes  8 chips 4 bits wide to make RAM memory 32 bits
>wide. This is true if it is 256KX4 or 1MX4. This is  what  the  A3000
    
    Sorry, I didn't realize it took "by 4" chips.  I suppose I should have
    though since it would take 32 chips to do it "by 1".  I guess this
    means the 1Mb of fast dips are also 256Kx4 chips?  I almost kept some
    of the memory from the A2058 card in my A2000, but decided against it. 
    Good thing since they were 1Mx1!
    
    Yes, I sold my A2000 a few weeks back.  I'm still considering whether
    I want an A3000 (my wife's a student) or something else or nothing...
    In the past I used my amiga while working on a MS at WPI, but I'm
    done now and not really sure I need another computer at home (My
    wife has an AT she brought home from work).
    
    - steve

    Re several:
    
    The 1MB of Fast RAM that comes installed in the A3000 is 4x256K (the
    same as is used by the A590 & A2091 disk controllers, among others). 
    It appears C-A intends that your first action when you want to expand
    the A3000 is to MOVE that memory over to become the 2nd MB of CHIP RAM.
    Then it makes sense to install ZIPs (all of the same kind) to populate
    the 32-bit Fast RAM.

re .13

I asked, and was told that you can install both ZIPs and DIPs in the A3000 FAST
memory. It'd just look strange.

Given the current pricing of 1Mx1 ZIPs vs DIPs, I'd be tempted to by 4Meg of the
DIPs to get started with, and live with it looking strange if I decided I
wanted more memory later.

Of course, if you're getting the 256Kx4, then none of this applies. I just expect
that I'll run out of 4Meg in the not-to-distant future.

	<mike

    Krueger company quoted me $45.00 per for 80ns static column ZIPs.(1 Meg
    X 4).  I questioned the sales person on the low price and she started
    to waffle.  She told me to check back with her "later" and said that
    there is a lottery on who will be supplied and who will not each month
    and that they should have them in stock in "a week or so".

RE:.14


>   Given the current pricing of 1Mx1 ZIPs vs DIPs, I'd be tempted to
>   by 4Meg of the DIPs to get started with, and live with it looking
>   strange if I decided I wanted more memory later.

    This would be an error..... There is only 1 meg of DIP sockets in
the fast ram section of the A3000. Beyond filling these, all fast ram
must be ZIP packages. The first bank of 8 zip sockets (not physically
contigious,  logically  so  and  with  sockets  numbered sequentually
correct for bank filling) overlays the 8 DIP sockets in the fast  ram
section (they have the same addresses) and sould not both be filled.

	-SES

    RE: .15
    
    When you buy a 3000, it has 1 meg CHIP and 1 meg FAST in 256Kx4 DIPS.
    
    When you buy more RAM, you move the 1 meg FAST RAM over to make 2 megs
    CHIP RAM. (unless of course you are adding the same type of chips that
    are already in there in which case you just add 1 meg CHIP RAM).
    
    If you add DIPS, that's it. You can add 4 megs worth of DIPS and you
    are done, no more room. If you want a 6 meg system, and you know you
    won't want to ever go higher, buy the DIPS. They are cheaper and easier
    to install. (Chips that cost $80 apiece are by there nature hard to
    install because the installer tends to be nervous.) If you do ever
    decide to upgrade, you'll have to try and sell off the 256K x 4 DIPS
    (at a loss no doubt) and buy the 1 meg x 4 ZIPS. With the ZIPS, you can
    go (in 4 meg increments) to 16 megs of FAST RAM for a total of 18 megs
    on the motherboard. I would tend to doubt that you can mix the 1
    megabit and the 4 megabit chips. You can't even mix the two different
    types of 4 megabit chips (static column and paged mode). Presently, I
    have 6 megs in my 3000. 2 megs of CHIP (in 256Kx4 DIPS) and 4 megs of
    FAST RAM (in 1 meg x 4 ZIPS). I doubt if I will need to go higher too
    soon, but if I do, the option is open to me. And yes, I paid about $400
    for that option.
    
    					bob
    					REFINE::POMEROY
    
     

RE .16 & .17

I think I gave the wrong impression. I could still be wrong, which would be
what I get for quoting hearsay. Here's what I was told when I asked about it:

1) The FAST DIPs can be either 1Mx4 or 256Kx4. That means you get either 1 Meg
or 4 Meg of DIPs for fast ram.

2) The DIPs overlay the first bank of ZIPs, and are electrically identical. So
long as you obey the other rules regarding chip types, you can use DIPs for
the first bank and ZIPs for the others with no problem.

Therefore, you should be able to buy 4Meg of 1Mx4 DIPs for slightly less than
the same ZIPs, and use those. Later, you can buy 4Meg of 1Mx4 ZIPs for use
in the other three banks.

I'd love to be able to RTFM. But my 3000 is still awaiting someone buying my
2000.....

	<mike

RE: .18

    Look,  I've had an A3000 for months, I have installed and removed
much memory in testing. Here is the straight poop...again.

    Chip memory consists of 1 meg of soldered  in  DIP  package  RAMS
plus  sockets  for a second meg of DIP package rams - total is 2 meg.
The organization of the chips here is  256Kx4.  Period.  Either  Page
Mode  or static column mode rams work equally well. I think they only
NEED be 120ns fast, but faster is OK.

    Fast Ram on the motherboard consists of (from the factory) 8  DIP
sockets  with  with  8 DIP package chips installed. In addition there
are 32 ZIP package sockets. DIP ram CAN NOT be used in these sockets.
The first 8 of the 32 ZIP sockets map to the same physical  addresses
as the 8 DIP sockets; they can not be occupied of the DIP sockets are
begin used.

    The  DIP  RAM  supplied  by Commodore in the Fast RAM DIP sockets
will be (at the whim of  the  market  and  Commodore)  either  Static
Column or Page Mode. In the fast RAM section ALL ram must be the same
type and size. All must be static column or all must be page mode. It
contradicts  this  in  the "Introduction to the Amiga 3000" manual on
page 4-10, but the manual IS in error. If types of  memory  is  mixed
strange and wierd crashes will happen, usually upon boot.

    When  1megX4  ZIP  (the only package I have found them in, except
surface mount) chips are used jumper J852 should connect pins  1  and
2, otherwise pins 2 and 3 (factory default for 256kX4 RAMs).

    With  245KX4 chips the max memory on the motherboard is 6 meg - 2
meg of Chip Bus RAM and 4 Meg of Fast RAM. With 1MegX4 chips the  max
is  18Meg  on the Motherboard - 2 Meg Chip Bus RAM and 16 Meg of Fast
Ram.

>   I'd  love  to  be  able  to  RTFM.  But my 3000 is still awaiting
>   someone buying my 2000.....

    Then  you  might spend time getting money for that manual and the
machine that comes with it. It will be better than misinforming folks
about how to expand the machine you know little about.  Get  to  know
it. The better you do the more you will like it!

	-SES

    
re:  Note 3931.19 by NSSG::SULLIVAN "Steven E. Sullivan"
    
>    Chip memory consists of 1 meg of soldered  in  DIP  package  RAMS
>plus  sockets  for a second meg of DIP package rams - total is 2 meg.
>The organization of the chips here is  256Kx4.  Period.  Either  Page
>Mode  or static column mode rams work equally well. I think they only
>NEED be 120ns fast, but faster is OK.
...
>    Then  you  might spend time getting money for that manual and the
>machine that comes with it. It will be better than misinforming folks
>about how to expand the machine you know little about.  Get  to  know
>it. The better you do the more you will like it!
    
    Lighten up Steve!!!
    
    Don't 256Kx4 dips have the same pin out as 1Mx4 DIPS?  So isn't it just
    possible that 1Mx4 dips could go in the fast ram DIP sockets?  If you read
    Mike's message I believe this is what he is saying.  It makes sense since it
    was my understanding that the first row of dips (fast) and the first row
    (alternating) of (fast) zips were equivalent.
    
    - steve mcafee

>    Don't 256Kx4 dips have the same pin out as 1Mx4 DIPS?  So isn't it just
>    possible that 1Mx4 dips could go in the fast ram DIP sockets?  If you read
>    Mike's message I believe this is what he is saying.  It makes sense since it
>    was my understanding that the first row of dips (fast) and the first row
>    (alternating) of (fast) zips were equivalent.

As I understand it (from Dave Haynie) there are NO 1MX4 DIP packages produced
(as of June 27, 1990). What I in the reply to which I was responding was using
dips in zip sockets... not doable.

I always get ticked when folks lead others to spend money on unusable 
configurations or equipment. There is no reason to buy 4 meg of 256X4
DIP's for an A3000, unless there is a plug in card (PIC) that uses them.

	-SES

Re .19

I still think I'm not making plain what I'm suggesting. I agree with everything
you said. Nothing you said suggests that the configuration I named was
impossible. The only thing you said that I wasn't aware of was that you
can't mix static column rams & paged mode rams, then again, the repair
tech I asked about it had only had machines to play with for about a month,
not three.

Let's try running the setup backwards, instead of forwards. Take the maxed-out
configuration we both agree on:

2 meg of fast, 16 meg of 1Mx4 zips divided into four banks, 0-3.

Bank 0 and the DIP sockets map to the same physical address, and can't be used
at the same time. Agreed. Yank the ZIPs from bank 0, and then install 4 meg
of 1Mx4 DIPs in the DIP sockets. I now have 16 Meg of fast, 4 in the DIP sockets
for fast ram, and 12 in the ZIP sockets that do not conflict with the memory
in the DIP sockets; the ZIP sockets that can't be used when the DIP sockets
are in use aren't being used. Assuming that all the banks are either SC
or PM, what's the problem with this configuration?

I was quoted prices for 1Mx4 DIPs at one time, and they were noticably lower
than the prices on 1Mx4 ZIPs, except I never found both packages at the same
place.

All I'm trying to do is point out an option that could save people some money.
The description of this option came from a usually reliable source. If that
option won't work, then I'll quit telling others about it, and get that
information back to the source. However, you keep repeating the same
information that we agree on, without ever talking about the configuration
I've described.

    I feel like beating a dead horse... So,
    
    Personally I wouldn't mix any types of RAM. I would buy one type and
    that's it. 
    
    You said you were quoted prices on 1Mx4 DIPs, but evryone I have talked
    to says you can't get 1Mx4 DIPs at this time. They are not available.
    
    bob
    

    All the places I spoke with said they had to order both types ZIPS and
    DIPS but that all were available.  This was last week.
    
    mark

    The latest word about 1M x 4 dips are, as stated earlier, that they are
    not available.  If anyone knows of a source I would appreciate a mail
    message.
    
    mark

Well, now that I've got the 3000 on order, I need to actually order
memory, instead of just pricing various options for hardware I no longer own.
Pointers to places with SCRAM will be appreciated.

And yes, if it turns out to be significantly cheaper to go with DIPS
rather than ZIPS and mix them, I'll give it a try.  But those places
that quoted me prices on DRAM parts (I didn't need the SCRAM last time)
don't seem to have SCRAM at all.

To update the list in .3:

1Mx4 SCRAM ZIPS: $70
256Kx4 SCRAM ZIPS: $12.50

No SCRAM dips...

	<mike

    
    If you haven't seen it, Dave Haynie just recently posted a note about 1Mx4
    DRAMs in comp.sys.amiga.??? .  He wasn't certain that the DIP sockets were
    in fact wired for these, but more importantly he didn't know of any 1Mx4
    DIPS which had the right pitch.  The only DIPS he was aware of were .400
    rather than .300.
    
    - steve

Article         2900
From: [email protected] (Dave Haynie)
Subject: Re: A3000 RAM upgrade question
Date: 6 Aug 90 17:55:30 GMT
Lines: 22
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Stefan Becker) writes:
 
>Is it possible to upgrade the A3000 to 4MB Fast-RAM with 1Mx4 DIP(!!) chips,
>which replace the existing 256Kx4 DIP chips in the first bank?
 
Two problems here.  First of all, I'm not certain that the DIP bank was
wired for the extra address line necessary for the 1Mx4 parts, though there
is a good chance it was.  The second problem is the one to overcome -- find
a source of 1Mx4 DIPs in 0.300" packages.  At least back when we had to make
this kind of decision, only one company had announced a 1Mx4 DIP part, at it
came in a 0.400" package, which of course isn't physically compatible with
the thinner DIPs we're using, even if the pinout is the same.  ZIPs aren't a
problem, since they grow vertically rather than horizontally.  Anyway, if
1Mx4 0.300" DIPs start to show up, I can easily check to see about whether
they work in the A3000's Fast-Bus DIP sockets.
 
>Mail	: Stefan Becker, Holsteinstrasse 9, 5100 Aachen, West Germany +-------+
 
-- 
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      PLINK: hazy     BIX: hazy
      Get that coffee outta my face, put a Margarita in its place!

    Re .28:
    
>   The second problem is the one to overcome -- find a source of 1Mx4 DIPs
>   in 0.300" packages.
    
    Ask and ye shall receive.  (I read that somewhere. 8^)
    
    According to the July 1990 issue of "Japan Review", both NEC and
    Toshiba are starting to ship 4-Megabit DRAM with 300-mil pin intervals. 
    The NEC article specifically calls out 4x1M DIPs, while the Toshiba
    article merely mentions announcement of 128 models of 4M parts.  Access
    times for both are claimed at (down to) 60 nanoseconds.
    
    NEC will start production in October of 100K units/month.  Toshiba is
    already ramping up from 500K units/month in June to a million by the
    end of the year.  Sample prices are $56 and $53, respectively.

Re .28:

Ok, there's a reason that what I proposed wouldn't work; as opposed to reasons
why things other than what I proposed wouldn't work. From .29, it looks
like the parts I wanted could have been quoted from a Toshiba price book.
You might also note that I was asking for DRAM, not SCRAM, at the time. I
did notice that looking for SCRAM I came up empty or with higher prices than
looking for DRAM.

And finally, Western Micro Tech in San Jose (+1 408 725 1660) just quoted me
1Megx4 80ns ZIP SCRAMs for $45/part at quantity eight. They have 200 on
order, and my name is supposedly attached to eight of them. That's better
per meg than the price on 256Kx4s I was quoted from up unlimited.

	<mike

     I'm looking to get some more memory for my 8UP memory board, but I
    don't know what to ask for. I do know that 1meg is a little board 
    with about 6 ?? chips on is.  Does anyone know what I should ask for
    when I call Micro-Processors unlimited.  

    Thanks  Bob

    OK, what you want are 1Mx8 SIMMs, the same type used by Mac-Plus
    machines.  You'll have to install them in pairs, so order an even
    number.  Last time I checked they were selling for about $40 each,
    probably slightly less now...

    Re: prices and vendors 

    Somewhere in this conference I posted a pointer to a list of vendors
    that's in the Mac conference. Check out note 34.95 and replies in
    routes::macintosh for the list. I just added 2 meg of memory to my
    GVP A500HD+ for a total of 5 meg. The place I ordered from is 
    Diamond Computer Resources in Texas (800-541-7126). 1Mx8 80ns simms
    were $34.95 each + $4 shipping UPS ground. Diamond offers a lifetime
    warranty on the simms and you can order any quantity.

    -Dom