Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I'll give you detailed instructions tomorrow.... pending testing my old 
    (3.0) version.  I haven't had any problems with the -SV although.
    
    

    
    I called the Impulse hotline (800.328.0184) and the guy answered part
    of my questions.  The 400 line mode set zone problem is probably cause
    by some background task I am running. (Qmouse or Snap1.4 or...)
    
    As for the other, he gave me some things to try. 
    
    re: -.1  detailed instructions would be heartily welcomed!
    
    md

    I finally sat down last night and discovered that the 'set zone' 
    feature worked fine in all modes.  I was about to ask you if you
    had any utilities or other tasks running in the background in case 
    there was a conflict.  I see that the question has already been 
    asked ;').
    
    I'll preface my reply to the question of loading and saving objects
    with a view on how I use the eXternal option.  The only time I use 
    an eXternal object is when it doesn't change over a number of frames.
    The eXternal command is effective when you want to tag an object
    (usually the more complex the better) and not save it in every frame.
    It will save a lot of space if used in this manner.  If you set an
    object to eXternal, it does lock that one object in cement.... I had
    never tried to reset an eXternal object because of the previous
    reasons.  The procedure for creating an eXternal object is detailed
    on pages 88-89 of the User Manual.
    
    As far as your loading an object, manipulating, and resaving it, you
    use the 'Save' and 'Load' options from the same menu bar as the 
    'eXternal' command.  Usually I load an object and manipulate it from
    frame to frame.  If the object changes over time, I leave it in the
    frame, changing it as needed.  I reserve the eXternal objects only for
    unchanged status (i.e. a spun cup that does not change position or
    any attribute during the sequence).
    
    Did the Hotline folks say anything that opposes this viewpoint?  If
    they have any tricks, I'd like to know about them.   
                                                      

    The Hotline said pretty much the same thing.  I misunderstood the usage
    of the eXternal object.  Got it down now, though!
    
    I tried using the "400 line" object editor set zone command with no
    background tasks loaded and the results were the same.  The rectangle
    looked like it was "modulated" and did not function correctly.  If I set
    zone in the animation editor it worked fine.  The Hotline said I had
    a hardware problem, I am skeptical of that conclusion.  I am going to
    call them again and let them know that set zone works as long as I am
    not in the object editor in 400 line mode.
    
    Thanks for your help and information.
    
    md

    For the record what are you running for hardware? I have silver
    SV but do not have much experiance in using it so no help here.However
    I would be interested in your hardware config. Another possibility
    would be to upload your file ,and have someone else try it.
    								bill

    re .4
    
    I haven't had any difficulty with the 200 or 400 line overscan HAM 'Set 
    zone' mode.  I have an A500 with 1 MEG and one external drive.  I have 
    used utilities like Dmouse and others while the TS program chugs away and 
    haven't experienced any problem like you describe.  In fact, I've had 
    occasion to run Tiles in the background for the wife to play while TS 
    is actively rendering without any problem. I think that my non-SV version 
    of 3.0 is 3.01a., if that's of any use to you.
    
    The use of eXternal isn't well explained.  The manual shows the steps
    to DO it, but not how to USE it.  I had to figure that one out by
    myself.  Their manual is the only weak point of the product.... 'learn
    by using' pretty well fits the way the manual approaches it.  My copy
    looks like the original Silver manual, complete with a sticker on the
    dust jacket to upgrade the name of the product, and needs a complete 
    professional rewrite (IMHO). 
    
    
                                Bob

    my configuration:
    
    Hardware:
    
    A500 with 3Mb memory.  SupraSCSI with two ST-506 drives.  2 floppies.
    On the serial port (switched) is a midi box, a LA75, and a scholar
    modem.  The parallel port is awaiting a suitable printer or scanner.
    
    Software: (background tasks, and stuff)
    
    I use ARP1.3, Conman1.3, SRT, Mymenu, ARexx, Calckey (hot button pop-up
    calculator(great little item)), Mackie (screen blanker), Qmouse1.6,
    Snap1.4, Nazcron(with events locked-no disk access every minute).
    I can boot up with background tasks or none from a requestor on
    startup.
    
    My only problem, now, is that the "400 line set zone in OBJECT editor" 
    option doesn't work, with or without background tasks.  I can set zone
    in any graphic mode fine from the ANIMATION editor.  The manual I
    received with TS3.0 didn't even mention the "Set Zone" option in the
    object editor.  I found out about it from, "The World of Turbo Silver",
    video tape I received with the TS package I order from Safe Harbor
    (plug-they're a great mail-order house)
    
    I am not going to sweat the object editor problem for now.  I've
    learned how to properly use OBJECTS-thanks to your replies and the
    Silver hotline-and can spend my time creating "worlds".
    
    mark
    
    if anyone knows of any other "features" not mentioned in the TS3.0
    manual post them here.  I definitely would like to know about them.

    You may want to consider upgrading to SV. It has many more textures
    and also runs considerably faster than to 3.0 series.Next time you
    call the hotline ask about the 3.01 mentioned in prior notes.
    								bill

    It's a lot of work but you may want to try the 400 line mode
    with just your bare 500. while you can work around it know if it
    is a hardware problem you want to find out asap. I say this because
    after I added 2meg to my 2058 card I experianced problems with some
    software,and not others.I also crashed every time I tried to duplicate
    a drawer from the workbench.Problem? I had to get a set of upgraded
    pals from GVP for the disk controller. If I was forced to point
    fingers I'd point toward the supra? Of course this is just a guess
    but it would be interesting to know what is happening.
    					
    							bill

    re. .8
    
    Right.  I as I remember, both versions are 3.01.... the 3.01 SV also has
    a much higher resolution (interlaced) object editor screen as well as 
    some other features in the menus that were apparently suggestions from 
    a number of users.  I do like the newer (additional) textures in the SV.  
    As I've mentioned before in another note, the Disturbed or wave texture 
    is one of my favorites.  There is also a kit included for developing new
    textures, if you are an adept C programmer. 
    
    I conjecture that in the not too distant future, Impulse will present their 
    newest product, Imagine, to the public and then TS will quietly fade away. 
    It supposedly will have the same rendering engine and will accept the 
    textures presently available (so Impulse says).  
    
    Bob

    re: .9
    
    I am going to strip down my A500 this weekend.  I wouldn't be suprised
    if it is the Supra.  I had problems with quarterback and they sent me
    an upgraded PAL which fixed the problem.  I will call them and inquire
    about the SV upgrade and Imagine.
    
    I will post what I find out.
    
    m

    Last time I talked to impulse(last week) they said Imagine was getting
    close. I inquired as to what would happen to Silver-SV an they stated
    it would remain as a viable product. I believe this because Imagine
    will be in the $300+ range,so they will still want an entry level
    product. re-1. I recieved an update to quarterback ver 4.0 that
    has a slow mode. This slow mode is to allow it to work with drive
    interfaces that could not handle the higher transfer speeds.
    
    								bill

    re. .12
    When I talked with the Impulse folks, they indicated the there were no
    future ungrades planned to support TS-SV.  They said that there would 
    be support for the -SV as it stands today.  Typically, a newer product 
    (that would be upgraded over time and continue to evolve) tends to 
    supplant an older product quite quickly because the older product will 
    have dead-ended.  Also, I suspect that Impulse might like the larger
    eventual profits of the expanded product and drop the older product in 
    favor of newer one...  you know, "Damn the customers, full profits
    ahead!" (just playing Devil's Advocate on this one).  Of course they
    might continue for the next year or so, selling the -SV in tandem, but
    I believe that TS-SV will fade in the not too distant future. I hope
    I'm proved wrong, although.... TS-SV is a nifty package.

    I've finally received my SV upgrade.  The added textures and the snap
    feature will keep me going for a while.  Rather then reinvent the wheel
    I would like some idea o what background color others are using now
    that the object editor is HI-RES.  Right now my background is black and
    I am getting a headache from the flicker.  I am editing a cell that I
    have been working on for a while so I am unable to see the wireframe
    in color.  Backgound suggestions anyone?
    
    mark

    I've been having good luck with changing the intialization file to 
    come up with a light grey for the background color and almost black
    for the lines.  I'll take a look at the actual numbers tonight and put 
    them up here tomorrow.  I changed the settings about five minutes after
    I first looked at the new edit screen.  Now I can go for several hours
    without going blind.
                    
    

    Is there anything I can do to "tone down" the super-requestors?  I
    wonder if they get their colors from workbench.
    
    m

    I believe that they are determined by the wb colors.  I have a similar
    setup on my wb (light background/dark letters).... I'll check when I
    get the values from the init file.

    re: .11 and others
    
    Did the upgrade to SV 'fix' the problem with the 'Set Zone' failure
    mentioned in previous replies?  It was an still unsolved problem as of
    a few replies ago, and I was just mostly curious.....
                                 

    It persisted on my "vanilla" A500 (512K agnus, 512K internal memory). 
    During my troubleshooting I received a midget racer w/68020/68881 and
    installed it. My "set zone" problem DISAPPEARED when I started using 
    Silver.FP from my original TSv3.01A diskette.(non-SV version)  It took 
    a bit of work to get the accelerator functioning with my drive controller.  
    When I got everything working(hard drives and midget racer) I didn't take
    the time to troubleshoot the "set zone" symptom.  Set zone functions
    fine in all modes now that I am using the FP version.  The Midget cured
    my curiosity! ;^)
    
    md

    MD,
    
    Here are the color settings in my TS.config file.
    
    BGRD bbb
    FGRD 000
    SLCT f80
    PNTS ccc
    PRNT f0f
    SPNT ff0
    PICK 00f
    ACTV 0f0
    PPNT f00
    
    I hope that this saves your eyesight.
    
    The settings for my WB preferences:
    (From left to right on the color scale in the Preferences screen)
    
    1. Almost White (~5/6 to the right... rgb equal)
    2. Almost Black (~1/7 to the right... rgb equal)
    3. Gold (keep the overall luminance/saturation down on this)
    4. Brick Red (keep the overall luminance/saturation down on this as well)
     
    You can substitute other combinations for 3 & 4, just as long as you
    don't set the luminance/saturation too high.  Hopefully I haven't got 3 & 4 
    reversed.... since I examined the setup late last night.  
    
   

    re: -.1 thanks...read on
    
    Well, here I am again with more Silver problems.  This time with the SV
    version.  Silver ran fine with the basic version except for the
    previously mentioned "set zone" symptom which I skirted by using the
    floating point variety of the program.  Now that I have installed the
    SV version my A500 is crashing with $03=illegal address, or $0B=line
    F emulator error(?), or $81000005=corrupted free memory list.  The
    strange thing is that it ran ok Tuesday and Wednesday evenings.  Silver
    crashes only when I enter the cell editor, or randomly when within the 
    cell editor.  

    It seems to have started when I edited silver.config to change the
    background color to 444 and the foreground color to 111.  I believe
    this to be coincidence, though.  The crashes also seem to be consistent
    when I exit Silver then re-enter Silver, but it also crashes on my
    initial start of the program.   I am using cells created in
    Silver 3.01a not in SV, though that should'nt matter, eh?

    A call to Impulse's "800" number got me in touch with a gentleman
    (don't remember his name) who said that SV is "finicky with memory"
    and that my A500 memory is not contiguous.  I told him that I have been
    using 3Mb of memory with no problem for 9 months and that SV is the
    only piece of software that is crashing in my configuration.  He said
    nevertheless, my memory isn't contiguous and that I should use a PD
    program call "SWEEP" after exiting SV.  I told him that I thought that
    he was full -er- I was skeptical of his diagnosis but I will try his 
    suggestion.

    I have a requestor pop up initially in my startup sequence that will
    let me boot the amiga with no background tasks.  While using the amiga 
    with no background tasks, SV still crashes whether run initially or
    restarted after I have exited it and it is INTERMITTENT.  I am at work
    now and I've left SV rendering a scene I created.(!???)

    All this verbage is to ask SV users if they received a new silver.config
    with their SV upgrade?  Also, since then new editor is in Hi-Res, is
    anyone using SV with the 512k agnus?  Maybe I am running out of chip
    ram.  I am looking for the PD program Sweep.  :(  :(

    mark

    

    Md,
    
    From what I just read, I'm assuming that you now have added at least
    two (or three?) more levels of uncertainty to the original 'Set Zone' 
    problem.  You either have (1) a problem with the hard drive/controller/
    memory that appeared when you first used TS (the original version), or
    (2) a problem with the installation of the Midget Racer or some odd
    incompatability with the Midget Racer, or (3) Something Else (clouded
    by additions of other variables). 
    
    I think the key is that you 'patched' the original problem (Set Zone) by 
    running the FP version (you shouldn't have seen this error), instead of 
    identifying the actual cause of the problem.  It may just be coincidence, 
    but the two problems (i.e. intermittent crashes, Set Zone) may be related. 
    Without removing each element and going back to a 'plain' configuration... 
    A500 (1MEG), no hard drive/controller/extra memory bundled into the 
    controller, no Midget Racer, no FP version.... and testing each component 
    in sequence, it'll be difficult to track down where the exact fault exists 
    (it could be a combination).  With a 'plain' system and the original 
    software (as in UNaltered), I think that it would be possible to get an 
    indicator of the problem, but with all the recent additions and changes, 
    the problem may be muddled.  It has to be done in an ordered fashion so 
    that nothing is missed (an easy thing to miss a clue when diagnosing 
    something).  I suspect when you stumble on to the problem, the source
    will stand out like a sore thumb.  
    
    Does this help.... or am I full of it ;').
    
                                    

    You are right, I was just procrastinating!  I plan to go back to a
    basic 1Mb, 2 floppy system, running Workbench 1.3, and systematically
    troubleshoot the symptoms. I'll let you know what I find.
    
    m

    I've found that I am unable to use the Set Zone option while in the
    cell (object) editor when in Hi-Res (400 line) mode of Turbo Silver 
    v3.01a on an Amiga 500 with 512K Agnus, and A501 clone.  I have another
    A501 clone (WHICH IS FOR SALE - $80.00+shipping) that I installed with
    no effect on the symptom.  With a 68020 midget racer installed, using
    the non-floating point version of Silver the previously mentioned
    symptom still exists.  If I use the floating point version of Silver, SV
    or v3.10a, the symptom disappears.
    
    According to Impulse, my A500 has a hardware problem.  I've run
    SYSTEST, which is supposed to be what service people use to check out
    A500/A2000s, and it passes all phases of the diagnostic except the
    "reserved" section which it skips.  I've run all the diagnostic
    programs *I* have, memory, cpu, etc, with no failures.  And since
    Silver is the only program, commercial or PD, that I am having problems
    with I have doubts about the validity of Impulse's claims.
    
    The PD program SWEEP, which is supposed to link fragmented memory
    chunks into larger contiguous chunks, seems to alleviate the crashing
    problem with SV on my fully configured A500.  I am going to find
    someone with an A500 locally (TB?) and try to duplicate the symptom.
    
    I couldn't resist the memory plug  ;^)
    
    mark

    Now that I have a 25Mhz 68882 installed in the midget racer my
    rendering times have decreased to almost nothing.  Traces that used to
    take 6 hours now complete in about an hour and a half.
    
    Anyway, has anyone made a good mirror in Silver?  I have been trying
    for two days to make one and the results have been lousy.
    
    md

    I don't know what you would call a good mirror, but I've created
    mirrors before.  The angle at which you view the mirror and the
    position of the objects in front of it seem to be the most critical.  
    I did one recursive set of reflections with two mirrors a while back
    (you know, reflections of reflections of reflections :-) (-: ).
    
    If you're looking for a different effect, one very interesting
    technique is to spin out a lens and then position the camera to look 
    through it.  You have to set the number of sections to a high number, or 
    small flaws appear in the rendering where the segments join.  I remember 
    some very interesting results while doing this.

    I finally got a good mirror.  I set filter and reflection to 255, then
    set facets and glossy.  What I was trying to do was to create a room
    and get the "recursive" reflections of the room.  I still haven't
    figured how to place the camera to get the effect I want.  If I place
    the camera in the room then seal it with mirrored walls I get "fisheye"
    distortion from the short focal length of the camera.  If I set the
    camera away from the room I cannot seal the room to get the effect.
    
    How did you spin a LENS?  Have you made a transparent surface that the
    camera could view through?  Anyway, I am learning a lot trying to get
    the effects I want.  Any suggestions are welcome.
    
    mark

    re. .27
    
    On spinning lenses.... First, you add axis and give it some really
    original name like 'lens'.  Second, you add points/lines to create one
    half of the curve that fits the lens shape that you need around the
    axis.  Third, choose the 'mold' option and sweep the object around 
    the axis (see below).  I would recommend that you choose at least 90 
    segments or you will have some very strange flaws in the rendering.  
    Set the 'filter' attributes to 250, check to see if the 'color' and 
    'reflectivity' attributes are set to 0.  Choose 'glass' as the material.  
    When correctly positioned in front of an object, it will act as if it were 
    a lens, magnifying or whatever.  You could even spin/sweep custom mirrors
    if you were so inclined.  I suppose that you could be really clever and, 
    using mirrors and lenses, construct your own miniature Hubble telescope 
    that could really function, within the confines of your ray-traced world.
    
      (This ray-tracing is weird stuff..... it's almost like having a 
                     miniature universe to play with.)
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  
          Add as many        ......|  Axis
          points/lines     .       | <
       it takes to   >   .         |_____
        produce a smooth   .        
         curve.              ....... < note that the points
                                       closest to the axis
                                       are ON the axis,
                                       otherwise there will be a hole
                                       in the top of the lens  when
                                       swept.
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 

    I've swept a few vases, but a lens?  I'll try it.  Maybe I can 
    make a magnifying glass, that would be interesting.  Thanks for the
    tip.
    
    md

make a telescope! :-) :-)  Couldn't resist!

john (amature astronomer)

    John,
    
    How mature are you??  Well, you said you were amature astronomer. ;')
    
    Seriously,  I wonder if you could actually make a functional telescope
    within the TS environment?  I expect that you would lose resolution
    with each element that you put in the way of your light sources.  As far 
    as construction of mirrors, it's a strong possiblity that several shaped
    mirrors could be created.  I imagine that a very simple telescope
    could be constructed..... although I wouldn't figure that I would work
    well, but it might just function.  The mathematics for simulation are
    there (?).   Maybe someday, I'll have enough memory to try it.  
                                                         
    I imagine that there is some critical flaw in this line of thinking....
    but it is just an idea.  I do remember having interesting results that
    could be further explored in the lens making area (a little fuzzy at
    first, but I thought that it could be improved on).  

>    John,
>    
>    How mature are you??  Well, you said you were amature astronomer. ;')
 
I often wonder :-)   


I suspect that if TS (or Sculpt) can product smooth enough surfaces,
reasonable lenses and mirrors can be made. Remember that (If I understand
the interaction between physics and reality) the degradation in performance
through a lense/mirror is due to physical imperfections in the medium and the
physical passage through the medium- not the math. I imagine that if TS does
not provide a "loss factor" of any sort that the lenses would be better than
real ones - assuming they are mathmetically perfect - which is not that
unreaasonable for a fast CPU/Floating point chip to produce.

some earlier reply indicated that a lense did indeed magnify. I have been
somewhat unsuccesfull making "flashlights" and good prisms in the past
using Sculpt 3DXL. 

Anyone with more experience?

john

    I have written a program in BASIC for building Sculpt Script files of
    radial math functions.  Therefore, it could calculate a parabolic
    mirror.  The rendering could takes days on my machine, though.
    Although I havn't been able to move zoo files since we moved the plant,
    I can move an ASCII script with a parabolic lens.  Would anyone with
    a faster machine want to try it?  You would want something to project.
    mirror
     (                                                                 *
    (           | focal plane 		lamps for projecting onto the plane
    (		|                         
     (                                                                *
    put the lamps at a known distance; put the white plane at the
    calculated
    distance at which they would be focused.
    Set up the target to be the plane; set up the observor location 
    <----- way out there along this line___.
    Tom

Sure, post it. It'll be a good test of me new 28mhz 68030/882 board...

john

    OK.  I'll try to make a couple different granularities of mirrrs with
    planes and one or two lights in a Sculpt 3D script file 2nite.
    Tom

'Pool.script Copyright 1990 Thomas E. Janzen Marlboro
'MA 01752
'This program generates a 
'script file called "ram:TELESCOPE.script"
'The script file can be read by Sculpt 3D by Byte by Byte.
'The image is of a parabolic mirror projecting onto a small white
'surface the image of a lamp in the background.  I have not
'verified that it works.
'Write a script file for scuplt 3d. Tom Janzen 7-10-90
script$="ram:TELESCOPE.script"
  OPEN "O",#1,script$
  PRINT #1,"ERASE ALL"  'Sculpt 3D commands for initialization
  PRINT #1,"COLOR 1.0 1.0 1.0"
  PRINT #1,"TEXTURE DULL"
  PRINT #1,"SMOOTHING ON"
  PRINT #1,"COORDINATES 2"
  PRINT #1,"MODE SNAPSHOT"
  PRINT #1,"MODE HI-RES"
  PRINT #1,"MODE INTERLACE"
  PRINT #1,"LENS NORMAL"
  PRINT #1,"EXPOSURE AUTO"
  PRINT #1,"IMAGE SIZE JUMBO"
  PRINT #1,"ANTI-ALIASING NONE"
  PRINT #1,"SKY NONE" ' GRADUATED 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0 1.0 1.0"
  PRINT #1,"GROUND NONE"  'CHECKERED 1.0 1.0 1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0"
  PRINT #1,"ILLUMINATION 0 0 0"
  PRINT #1,"WINDOW NORTH"
  PRINT #1,"(900.0,-600.0,0)"
  PRINT #1,"LAMPS CREATE"
  P = 200
  PRINT #1,"(";P/2;",0,0)"
  PRINT #1,"TARGET"
  PRINT #1,"(-300.0,-500.0,0.0)"
  PRINT #1,"LOCATION"

  PRINT #1, "(";P;",50,-50)-(";P;",50,50)-(";P;",-50,-50)-";
  PRINT #1, "(";P;",50,-50)"
  PRINT #1, "(";P;",-50,-50)-(";P;",50,50)-(";P;",-50,50)-";
  PRINT #1, "(";P;",-50,-50)"
  PRINT #1, "DESELECT ALL"
  PRINT #1, "TEXTURE MIRROR"
  increm=10
  'making increm twice as big makes the file 1/4 the size, but
  'the image is chunkier, so use smoothing in 3D
  FOR X=100 TO increm STEP -increm
      nextx = X-increm
      Y     = (1/(4*P))*(X^2)
      nexty = (1/(4*P))*(nextx^2)
        PRINT #1, "(";INT(Y);",";INT(0);",";INT(X);")-"
  NEXT X
  PRINT #1, "(";INT(X);",";INT(Y);",";INT(0);")"
  PRINT #1, "WINDOW NORTH"
  PRINT #1, "DO SPIN" 
  CLOSE #1

END

ERASE ALL
COLOR 1.0 1.0 1.0
TEXTURE DULL
SMOOTHING ON
COORDINATES 2
MODE SNAPSHOT
MODE HI-RES
MODE INTERLACE
LENS NORMAL
EXPOSURE AUTO
IMAGE SIZE JUMBO
ANTI-ALIASING NONE
SKY NONE
GROUND NONE
ILLUMINATION 0 0 0
WINDOW NORTH
(900.0,-600.0,0)
LAMPS CREATE
( 100 ,0,0)
TARGET
(-300.0,-500.0,0.0)
LOCATION
( 200 ,50,-50)-( 200 ,50,50)-( 200 ,-50,-50)-( 200 ,50,-50)
( 200 ,-50,-50)-( 200 ,50,50)-( 200 ,-50,50)-( 200 ,-50,-50)
DESELECT ALL
TEXTURE MIRROR
( 12 , 0 , 100 )-
( 10 , 0 , 90 )-
( 8 , 0 , 80 )-
( 6 , 0 , 70 )-
( 4 , 0 , 60 )-
( 3 , 0 , 50 )-
( 2 , 0 , 40 )-
( 1 , 0 , 30 )-
( 0 , 0 , 20 )-
( 0 , 0 , 10 )-
( 0 , 0 , 0 )
WINDOW NORTH
DO SPIN

Thanks Tom,

I'll crank it out tonight...

john

    I generated it overnight.  It was in snapshot mode.  it was totally
    black, the whole screen, after 8 hours 8o(.
    Oh well.  Back to the drawing boar... screen.
    I have to verify that Sculpt reflect light from mirrors onto other
    objects in snapshot mode.  Maybe it doesn't in any mode.
    Tom

    I have done a couple experiments with a flat mirror.  The Stubble 
    Telescope will never work because Sculpt 3D does not render
    the light falling on objects from mirrors.  Therefore you can't focus
    images with a parabolic mirror.  It only renders objects reflected in
    mirrors.
    Perhaps a more advanced version of Sculpt or another renderer can do
    it.  You can see where that feature is kind of esoteric at the low end.
    Too bad. 8-(
    Tom

    
    Tom, I tried your lens script and made a rather decent trace from
    Sculpt 3DXL.
    
    I finished developing the lens by spinning the curve that your script
    file produced into a dish.  I then mirror imaged the dish and filled
    the circumference using the 'unslice' function.
    
    I'd like to try a few more variations, but I'll upload the finished IFF
    here for review.
    

I wasn't as successfull as Ed. I was trying for a reflection onto the 
flat plate - nothing. The mirror refelcted the plate but no image showed
on the plate itself (focus).

I had the same trouble when making a prism, I couldn't get a color spectrum
on a white plate placed beside the prism. 

In fact, I had tried to make a "laser" of some sort by making a sperical
mirror inside a black tube with a very high intensity lamp inside near the
focal point - all I got was a bright spot inside the tube - no beam of
light...

john

    How about creating a refractor (you know, a straight old-fashioned
    telescope) out of two lenses and dropping the idea of the mirror, if
    the reflector route proves unfeasable?  I know that TS 'lenses' will bend
    the 'light'.  I did a lens (a hemisphere) on TS last night and placed a 
    target in front of the lens.  It worked just fine.  I realize that alignment
    of the lenses, camera/observer, and target might be a little difficult 
    to adjust properly.  (Note how we all refer to the objects and light 
    sources as real things, the flaw in the thinking may be real as well.)
    
                                    small     large 
        A possible                  lens      lens          target
        alternative       camera/ 0- ()        {}             *
            ?             observer
               

    Alignment is easier in sculpt because you can have calculated 
    script files make the objects.
    It is not my impression that Sculpt glass is refractive, just a shiny
    translucent surface, not a solid.
    I don't understand why Ed had to spin the curve if the script file
    already spins the curve.
    Tom

    Note Ed, I was not trying to make a lens, I was trying to make a
    mirror, a reflector telescope.  Sculpt 3D can't do it.
    Tom

    
    Yes, I understand Tom.  Your script file only got as far as producing a
    single curve with Sculpt 3DXL version 2.02C.  I had to finish the dish. 
    
    As an aside, 3DXL lets you place vertices interactively very accurately
    via an XYZ location requestor.
    
    Ed.

I believe Sculpt 3Dxl does have a refractive glass (there is glass 1 and 
glass 2 - one of which is refractive) or was that Sculpt 4D?

john

    
    Yeah, my version of 3DXL has 'Glass1' and Glass2' available.  I'll
    check the manual tonight and see what the difference is.
    
    Ed.

    Altering the refractive index of the material in Turbo Silver is also done 
    by selection (i.e. air, water, glass, etc...), but can also be selected by 
    entering the number of the refractive index (i.e. 1.00 for air)....  Thus
    allowing for more specific materials (i.e. diamond).  To cut rendering
    time, I used water last night.  You remember how to make a water-drop
    magnifying glass from your childhood, don't you?   Another advantage to
    ray-tracing water is that it doesn't drip when you turn the lens
    sideways :').

I managed a couple lens scenes in Sculpt 3Dxl last night.

	wjg::amiga:lens.lzh

has 2 sculpt scenes and the 2 ray traced images (IFF)

Looks like glass2 does indeed refract properly. However my lens reduced
the size of the image not enlarged it. I did not make any optics
calculations nor did I experiment with object size/distance (i.e. focal point)

The scene is a large convex lense with a "metal" block placed behind it so that
part of it shows through the lens and part does not (to gauge the magnification).

I had made 2 sixel images from the IFF but CSIX didn't do justice to them...

john

    A convex lens should enlarge things at the focal point and closer and
    reduce and INVERT things farther; if a convex lens reduced and did not
    invert, then it is NOT correct.  I can't see the picture.
    I assume it's doing some cheap geometric optics.  Physical optics would
    only be worth while on an optical CAD.
    Tom

Dave Busch made the same suggestion. We went to my house at lunch and 
there is another version chugging away... We moved the lense closer
to the object.

I wonder if the problem is something like: Once the object is far enough
away, it should invert and shrink. Well, it's shrinking but not inverting.
Possibly, the inversion point causes things to go negative, but Sculpt
is not dealing with that properly (unsigned arithmetic), so the image
never inverts...

We should have more data in an hour or so (actually after 5:00 when I
go home...)

john

    Whilst looking through the lens on my trusty Swiss army knife to view
    the effect (a convex lens), closer than and up to the focal point, the
    image is right side up.  Beyond the focal point, of course, it inverts
    the image... and shrinks it.  I'll experiment with Turbo Silver this
    weekend to see if the same results follow the physical experiment.
    
    I hadn't noticed any inversion, but I didn't attempt to pull away from
    the object under observation to a longer distance.  I'll be curious to
    see if the image flips.  The previous hemispherical lens did seem to
    react properly at close quarters to the target, although. 

    Well, I cold try some more with my mirror.
    I shoulod put the observor where I had a focal plane to focus on.
    the focal plane will be the virtual focal plane that the software
    models to calculate the image.  Hm.
    Tom

The experiment Dave Busch and I had done yeilded some strange results. 

We had moved the lens much closer to the object. The result was no magnification
at all (larger or smaller).

I was in a seminar all weekend so I didn't get any time to experiment more.

As I type this in I realized that we may have moved too close to the object
and therefore *should not* have gotten any magnification...

I'll keep trying.

john

    
    Forgot to type this in while I had the manual in front of me at home,
    but Sculpt 3DXL definitely performs real refraction with GLASS2
    texture.  The manual even states that you can build magnifying glasses.
    
    If you have an earlier version of Sculpt, you do not have the GLASS2
    option.
    
    Ed.

The question is whether it does the refraction correctly for all cases.

john

		Is Silver the same as Turbo Silver?  I was looking at the
	package for Silver and I couldn't find the word Turbo anywhere on
	it although Moe at the Software Shop said that it was Turbo Silver.

						Jim

    Be careful about this.  
    
    There was a much earlier product called 'Silver' which later evolved into 
    Turbo Silver.  About the package you looked at.... it could be that....  
    (1) It really is the old version of 'Silver' in which case you would be 
    'taken' if you bought it, since it wouldn't have any of the many bug 
    fixes/improvements of the later versions, forcing you to also buy the 
    newest upgrade {the upgrades are not free}.... (2) It really is 'Turbo
    Silver' in which case the revision number should be 3.0 or higher (it 
    might be 'Turbo Silver -SV' (version 3.01sv)).  I updated to -SV some time 
    back and have appreciated the user oriented improvements.   I would 
    recommend that you buy only the -SV version, if that was your intent(?).  
    The only way to find out for sure, if the manual has no identification on 
    it, is to run the program and look at the version #.  I believe that 
    inside the front cover was one sheet that identified the version, which 
    may or may not be correct as Impulse may or may not have updated the manual
    since the change in revision.  

Could someone briefly describe the differences between Turbo Silver's user
interface and Sculpt's?

For example Sculpt uses the tri-view (north, west and top 2d view) and I find
it aggravating to manipulate.

How does Turbo Silver create a scene?

john

    TS has a single-view interlaced screen which can be switched between
    three views: top, front, and right side.  You can zoom out or in and 
    scroll the viewing screen.  For a quick relational check you can turn on 
    a wire-frame view that momentarily replaces the edit screen.  All
    additions (such as adding a primitive such as a generic sphere) to the
    edit screen, appear at coordinates 0,0,0 and must obviously be moved as
    needed to their appropriate locations.  There is a small coordinate
    display that can be opened if you're in doubt about whether you're in
    the right place.  By switching through the views, you get accurate
    placement quite easily.  Different functions such as object selection
    are indicated by the use of different colors in the edit screen. 
    Features like molding, extrusion, follow by story path are also available. 
    The 'world' size is selectable and there is a snap-to-grid feature in -SV. 
    By the way, the SV version allows the use of LCD glasses to simulate a 3-D 
    effect.... I never tried that feature.  There are no magnets, as such, but 
    there are a lot of other features. 
    
    As far as creating a scene.  When the editor screen opens you find
    yourself with a blank front-view screen, with only the camera (Sculpt's 
    observer)showing.  You can then add objects (primitives or complex) and 
    move them by switching between screens and hauling them around.   You can
    vary any element in the scene by hauling up the proper requestor or
    thumping on shortcut keys.   I think that TS has an edge when it comes
    to the control over how textures and other attributes are rendered.
    Anyway, it does a superb job.
    
    I've used both Sculpt & TS, and I have to agree that it's less confusing 
    to use the TS than the Sculpt editor.  I suppose that you get used to your 
    editor through experience, but I had a tendency to get confused while 
    trying to navigate and use all the gadgets in the Tri-view windows on the 
    Sculpt editor.  I DO like the perspective 3-D wireframe editor that a 
    vehicle like Caligary has (IMHO the only decent way to get a fast, proper 
    view of what you're editing).  I understand that Impulse's Imagine will 
    soon have a wire-frame editor (3-D?) as an option.... it probably won't
    be like the Caligary editor, but I can always hope... .
                            

    
    You guys have hit on the ideal (and, so far elusive) BEST way to
    construct real 3D models - the Caligary method; ie, working in a true
    wireframe perspective.  This is how our in-house megabux UniGraphics
    software works.
    
    After (or at any time) the wireframe is built, you can project
    orthogonal views to any coordinate plane that you define.
    
    DynaCADD purports to work in this fashion, which is why I have such
    high hopes for it.  I hope that someone will do a conversion module to
    export a model to a ray tracing program.
    
    Oddly enough, the PC world seems to have a wealth of excellent geometry
    construction programs, but not very much in the line of ray tracing and
    rendering.  I see lots of ads for $$$$ add-on modules for AutoCad, but
    nothing like Sculpt or TS's price/capability range.
    
    Ed.

    New added objects in Sculpt do not appear at 0,0,0; they appear in the
    middle of the current window, which could be anywhere in the
    coordinates. In addition, Sculpt allows script files to define objects
    and automatically do anything in batch mode you can do interactively. 
    Do the other renderers allow script files to make objects?  I use this
    to render mathematical functions from huge files written by C or BASIC
    programs into text files.  I used it to make a pool with concentric
    waves in animation.
    Then the parabolic mirror.
    Also, Forms in Flight I had a red/blue stereo view, but you couldn't
    edit in it, but you could define any view.  Views like the Scuplt
    tri-view were also available simultaneously,and FIF allows editing in
    3d view, but not stereo view.  FIF II does not have stereo view at all
    8-(
    What do you want for such cheap software?  The pro stuff is thousands.
    Tom

    
    >    What do you want for such cheap software?  The pro stuff is
    >    thousands.
    
    My Unigraphics license costs DEC $10,000 plus $1440 per year for auto hidden
    line removal.  Add in an additional $6,000 per year for simple solid
    rendering like Sculpt 3D does for $99.
    
    Ya wanna play, ya gotta pay.
    
    Ed.
    
     

    
    I uploaded a few sample images generated with Sculpt 3DXL using Tom's 
    lens script.
    
    In each case, I created the word 'LENS' and placed the lens between the
    viewer and the text.  I then moved the text further away from the lens
    in a effort to find the point at which the text 'flips.'  I think the
    results look pretty cool.
    
    Look in LEDS3::USER6:[ACCIARDI.AMIGA]LENS.LZH; for a compressed
    package of three IFFs.  There are also .PS versions available, but they
    look pretty shabby in greyscale.  If some nice person wanted to convert
    them to color PS, we could print them out on an LJ250 using the PS
    emulation software.
    
    Ed.

    Ed,
    
    About how many distance units away from the target did the lens flip?
    I was experimenting last weekend, but had inconclusive results.  I was
    using a convex lens, but I got the feeling that it was too thick after
    I saw the general pattern of the distortions at farther distances.  I 
    suspect that I didn't pull far enough away from the target and kept the 
    camera (observer) too close the lens.
    
                                 Bob

I think if Ed were to upload the Sculpt scene files, someone with SA4D could
make a real simple animation of the lense as it moves toward/away from an
object...

john

    I'll volunteer my services, but the animation trace may take a while on
    my stock 68000.
    
    							Ed (Doyle)
    

I have an 030/882 if someone want's to lend me SA4D :-)

john

    
    I don't recall offhand the distance between the lens and target, but I
    guess it's a function of lens thickness also.  I also suspect that my
    lens may be too thick.
    
    I'll upload the scene file and anyone can play for themselves.  It
    would be nice if someone with Interchange could convert them to TS
    format.
    
    BTW, the scenes take about 1.5 - 2 hours to generate on my 2500/20 with
    16 MHz math chip.

    
    
    	Yes, I have SA4D and a 030/882 card. I'll play with this over the
    weekend. I also have Interchange and Turbo silver 3.0 . We'll see what
    this all looks like.
    
    		Steve  Peters
    

I was hoping you would Steve:-)

This will make a real neat animation... A Badge Killer entry for sure!

john

This years has been cancelled due to lack of people to run it.

Next years is probably in the same state, or it may turn into the Badge
Killer Tool Contest.

And I still need someone to talk at next months Badge meeting....

	Sob,
	<mike - Official Badge Guru

    
    
    	There may not be a Badge Killer demo contest, but I have entry
    forms for 3 other animation contests. Maybe we can win something.
    
    			Steve Peters
    

    
    Lens_Scene.lzh is available from LEDS3::USER6:[ACCIARDI.AMIGA]
    
    Ed.
    

    Well, well, will wonders never cease.  I finally got the image to 
    flip in my lens.  I took about a thousand units of distance to do it,
    but it did flip eventually.  At least the math works.  Has anyone tried
    two lenses in front of each other yet?

    I haven't tried lenses but I've made transparent spheres (colored and
    uncolored) that invert background images.  I believe on side of the
    sphere is a convex lens and the other concave.  For really strange
    effects vary the size of an axis or two on the sphere then view the 
    world through it.
    
    	md

    On page 44 of TS 3.0 manual, under the Join command, it says it is
    useful to join Scuplt 3-d objects upon importing them...
    
    How do you import them?  I can't find it anywhere in the manual...
    
    Any sucess on the laser, anyone?
    
    Mike 

    I use interchange by Syndesis to import objects from other object
    editors.  It works great!  I have interfont from Syndesis as well.  I
    am having a blast creating 3-D text and (attempting to) rendering it.
    
    mark
    
    p.s. I say attempting to above because I just cannot seem to get the
    hang of lighting my scenes the way I would like.

    Note, this is not meant as a flame, just some constructive input.
    (in reply to .77 'sphere as lens')
    
    If you think about it, you will notice that a sphere is a lens. If you
    stretch an axis or two, it even looks like a lens. 
    
    Bob Pomeroy
    refine::pomeroy