Conference hydra::amiga_v1

>   happens is that the light on the drive stays on and the system
>   freeses,

I do not know about the Supra controller, but problems like that I have 
seen were usually SCSI bus problems (unless they were C-Ltd!). I am thinking
of things like proper bus termination, running the bus away from noisy cables
(like monitor and serial cables), makings sure the connectors are well 
connected. More than once I have been bitten by a bad cable ... why just the
other night!

>   This guy i know cranks it up to 325 Kb transfer rate from an RD52 but
>   with a different controller. 

I would get up to about 200kb or so (as I recall) with it hooked to a C-Ltd
(old) controller with diskperfa hooked to an A500.

Have you tried increasing the buffers? This may help, to a point. I assume
you are running the fast file system and not the old one...

About 350KB is about the most I have seen anyone get out of a MFM adaptec,
and that was with a hardframe and lots of buffers.

	-SES

As .1 mentioned, proper bus termination is important. If you're running
with two SOTS cards, make sure you've done the PAL hacks, and possibly
try a ceramic 68010 instead of a standard 68000 (all these things cut
down the noise on the SOTS adapter, which causes a lot of problems).

Also, make sure you've got the SCSI bus properly terminated. I had similar
problems with Supra adapter until I turned the terminating resistors on
the final drive around. If you had DEC rz drives, that would be hard to
avoid. I'm not familiar enough with the rd drives to know if the same applies.

Finally, call Supra and get the latest & greatest software. Their tech support
was very good to me, and the upgrades are both cheap and worthwhile. Something
like $10 for the Version 2 software, which is much better behaved than the
Version 1 stuff.

I turned my supra in for a Trumpcard (which fits inside the ASDG Zorro I box
I have, thus makeing the system smaller & more reliable), and sold the Supra
to someone who had just won a 360MB scsi from Sun, so I don't have any contact
information any more.

	<mike

    
    I've tried to put the buffers up to 300, and i've also grounded the
    Pal's.
    
    For the bus termination, i don't know? Both my drive have a termination
    directly on the drive, and for the Amiga bus i guess it's terminated by
    my memory board.
    
    About the 68010, don't you need special hardware to slap it in or you
    just remove the 68000 and put the new one in???
    
    I'll also try to get the latest release of the software but i don't
    think that would cause it to hang? 
    
    
    Stephane..
    

    I am using two RD type drives on a Supra/Adaptec controller
    configuration on my A500.  To connect both drives I had to daisy-chain
    the 34-pin connector and REMOVE the termination resistor pack from
    the FIRST drive.  I've been running like this for quite a while with
    no problems.  I can even turn off the last drive in the chain with no
    repercussions.
    
    md
    
    BTW, the adaptec is a 4000A

    
    My drives are daisy chained also but the resistor pack is still there,
    i'll try that. By the way what speed are you getting?
    
    Thanks.
    Stephane.
    

Theoretically, you're supposed to have termination on one of the drives in a
SCSI chain. In practice, the last one usually works best. You shouldn't have
any other terminatin in the drives.

For the 68010, just unplog the 68000, and plug in a 68010. Besides quieter
lines, you also get a couple of percent (practical max is about 5, but
Moto claims up to 25) more oomph. You may also need to run decigel, or some
other routine to catch naughty software (metacomco lisp, for example).

Upgrading to the latest software solved my problem with hangs. Of course,
changing from the SOTS Supra to a Zorro Trumpcard improved things yet again.

	<mike

    
    Speed?  We don't need no stinkin' speed...No, with this setup:
                                       
    	A500->SupraSCSI->Adaptec4000A->RD----->RD(terminated)
    
    Using Diskspeed V2 about 208Kb/s reads with the 256K buffer on
    both drives.

    I get SCSI bus hangs on mine if I try to enable "blind reads" with the
    Adaptec interface.  So do some other folks.  Once or twice a week they
    will happen until I set blind reads to off with the SupraEdit program.
    
    If you are trying different interleaves to get the best speed, not that
    you must have the MAP option on when formatting.  If Map option is off,
    then the interleave you select before formatting is not used.

> Theoretically, you're supposed to have termination on one of the drives in a
> SCSI chain. In practice, the last one usually works best. You shouldn't have

The SCSI spec says you MUST terminate both ENDS of the cable.

In my experience, termination is definetly required and proper (ie according to
ANSI) termination is the best. However, depending on cable lengths, SCSI
bus driver chips on the devices, power levels, noise in the environment,
phase of the moon, things will work with improper termination. 

Your just asking for trouble playing with termination and termination power
(term power is equally as important as termination). You will experience
parity errors (that's if you enable parity!!! and Yes, Enable it!!!) and 
bus hangs.

john

    
    Yesterday i tried a couple of things...
    
    The things that didn't work:
    
    1- Tried to remove the terminator on the first drive.
    2- Tried to swap the terminator, thinking that maybe one is defective
    3- I've put both drives and the adaptek in a DECserver box and i tought
       that the power supply was too close to the adaptek, so i let it run
       with the cover open.
    4- Tried different buffers (100,200,300,400).
    5- Tried to remove my 2 Meg memory board.
    
    The things that did work.
    
    1- Nothing........
    
    Tonight i'll try to remove the blind reads.
    The last i'm gonna have to do is scope the cable from the Supra when
    it's hung. But i don't know what to expect. I wanted to do it yesterday 
    but my scope was on the fritz  ;^(
    
    Thanks.
    Stephane.
     

    
    
    FWIW:
    
    I AM using an Adaptec4000A.  It has the front end of the DRIVE bus
    terminators so the other end has to be on the last drive.  I have blind
    reads enabled (increased read speed by 50Kb).  The SCSI cable from the
    SupraSCSI500 to the Adaptec4000A is approximately 4' long.  The 34-pin
    drive bus cable is approximately 17' long.(unshielded 34 conductor
    ribbon cable)
    
    The SCSI bus is terminated on one end by the Supra and the other end by 
    the Adaptec.  The DRIVE bus is terminated on one end by the Adaptec and
    the other end by the LAST ST-506 drive.
    
    I do not know if your congfiguration is anything like mine but I have
    been running this way since 10/89 with no hard drive problems, no
    hangs, except with Quarterback and Supra sent me a new PAL to solve 
    the problem, and blind reads enabled.
    
    	md
    

    
    Yesterday night i tried to turn off the blind read but it was already 
    off, so that's not it. I also tried to scope the signal's and
    everything looks nice, all the voltages are in spec and when the drive
    is frozen nothing special happens except for some SCSI signal that
    frozen and asserted.
    
    Tonight if i can i'll try to put a breakout box on the back of the
    supra and when it hangs i'll cut some signals to see which one causing
    the problem.
    
    Oh, i also tried to remove the memory board, same problem...
    
    My present config is:
    
    Amiga| Supra | Memory |
            |
            |_______________| |______| Adaptek |___| RD52 |___| RD52 |
               /\               /\
               ||               ||
    
            25 Pin Ribbon    50 Pin Flat
              Cable            Cable
    
    Does anybody know a very high bridge???
    
    Stephane.

    I do not know if this will help but my drive system was hanging up
    using Quarterback.  i.e. Hard drive and floppy drive froze.  Supra sent
    a new PAL for my controller which fixed the problem.  They did not
    give me a problem definition, just sent the PAL.  Have you tried
    varying the step-rate setting in supraformat?
    
    md

    
    The step-rate setting??? What's that. Can you give me more info on
    that?
    
    Today i'm gonna call Supra Corp. to see what they have to say.
    
    By the way, i'm having the same problem, i never mentioned it but my
    floppy also hangs, if it was reading on it.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Stephane.
    

The step rate is a number that the Adaptec4000A uses to control the drives 
seek timing.  Usually when you get a drive its specs will show its unformatted
    capacity and an average seek rate (something like 19ms or 24ms).  It is
    also part of the SCSI protocol.

SupraFormat lets you set the step rate (which controls seek timing) for the 
drive that you are using.  You can choose "0", "1", or "2", with "0" being 
the slowest step rate and "2" the fastest.  Your adaptec controller manual
(you do have one?) should give you the rates that 0-2 corresponds to.  On 
the Adaptec4000A 0 = 3ms, 1 = 24�s, 2 = 17�s.(or 3s, 24ms, 17ms)  

Since I knew the average seek time for my drive, I set the step rate "number"
accordingly and played around with the interleave number to get the fastest
R/W speeds.

To change the step rate, interleave, # of cylinders, # of heads, write
precompensation, reserved cylinders, etc.  Start SupraFormat and click
on the drive or controller gadget and a screen will open with the above named
fields.  change the step rate and interleave the get the optimum performance.
For an RD54, interleave = 2, step rate = 1.  (208Kb/s read speed on my A500)
Any other setting and the R/W speeds decreased.  Try  interleave = 2 and
step = 1 and see what happens.  Then reformat the drive.  If you have
supraformat v1.09e or higher turn mapping off when you format.�


****CAUTION****

� MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE THE LATEST VERSION OF SUPRAFORMAT (v1.09e or higher)

 IF YOU DO NOT YOU WILL HAVE TO RE-MAP THE DRIVE AFTER ANY OF THE ABOVE DRIVE
 SETTING CHANGES FOR THE CHANGES TO TAKE EFFECT AFTER FORMATTING.

 Re-mapping an RD54 takes 14.3 hours!!!


md
    

RE:.15

>   The  step  rate is a number that the Adaptec4000A uses to control
>   the drives seek timing.

    From the Adaptec ACB-4000 series user manual on page 5-27:

"The step pulse output rate code  specifies the timing of the seek
steps. Three options are currently available:

00 = Non-Buffered Seek - 3.0 mS rate - ST506
01 = Buffered Seek - 28 uS rate - ST412
02 = Buffered Seek - 12 uS rate"

    Note: ST506 is a RD50 5 meg drive, ST412 is a RD51 10 meg drive.

>   Usually  when you get a drive its specs will show its unformatted
>   capacity and an average seek rate (something like 19ms or 24ms).

    The  step rate refers to the track-to-track pulse rate for moving
the head, and on buffered drives the direct relationship  goes  away.
Using too slow a step rate will not hurt anything except performance.
That may not even be noticable. Note the manual seems to imply that a
step rate code is for "everything else."

>   It is also part of the SCSI protocol.

    Not  that  I  have seen. It *is* part of the Adaptec proprietiary
set mode command which is not implememted  as  defined  in  the  SCSI
common command set. I think the Adaptec 4000 came first!

>   For  an  RD54, interleave = 2, step rate = 1. (208Kb/s read speed
>   on my A500) Any other setting and the R/W speeds decreased.

    If  it  works  for  you...  I can't argue with success, but there
could be something else in your environment that makes these  numbers
work best for you.

>   Re-mapping an RD54 takes 14.3 hours!!!

YOW! I finally know something the C-Ltd is faster at!

	-SES

    Thanks for the corrections.  Any ideas on environmental changes I can
    make?  I'd like to squeeze a little more speed out of this hummer.

Step rate is settable on CCS compatible drives. Some (Like RZ22/23) will 
require it to be set to 0 (ie use default value - the drive knows best!)

It's located in the MODE SENSE/SELECT page 4 for rigid disks, and page 5 for 
flexible (floppy) disks.


SCSI II defines it as the step rate in 100ns increments.

john

    
    
    
    
    Yes i've got V1.09E of the software.
    
    Do you know what the settings should be for a RD52.
    
    Another thing, in the SupraFormat program, should i select controller
    type Adaptek 4000 or controller type Other? If i select the adaptek
    4000 for my second drive, after the format the program says:
     
     This controller does not support the SCSI mode use controller type 
     other.
    
    Finally, i found someone at my office who as a Supra, i'll try his 
    controller with my system in a few days...
    
    Thank you everybody for all your help.
    
    Stephane.
    

	I have seen the same message when I had a malfunctioning
	Adaptec4000A installed.  I was trying to format a RD53
	and had to use the "other" controller even though the
	Adaptec4000 was listed in Supraformat.  When I formatted
	the drive it only showed 5MB.  I returned my Adaptec and 
	received a working one and the RD53 formatted fine.

	I also got the message when I had incorrectly cabled up
	the drive.  This time the drive wouldn't format at all.
 
    	RD52:  8 r/w heads/512 cylinders/17 or 18 sectors/track
    
    	       It should format to approximately 31MB.	

    That should be 17 or 18 blocks/track not sectors/track.
    I used 18 on the RD53 when I had it.(71MB formatted)
    I cannot remember what I am using now.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    ps.  I also do not "reserve" cylinders and leave the "park"
    field blank.

    
    I've looked closer yesterday and the version of my SupraFormat 
    is V1.09b.....
    
    Could it have someting to do with my problem?
    
    
    Stephane.
    

    I do not think so.  I have version 1.06b, 1.07c, 1.09e (latest version
    that I know of).  I have formatted an RD53 with all the versions
    although after formatting with v1.09e you need the supradirect.device(it
    may be called scsidirect.device) driver to mount your partitions cor-
    rectly.  I got my first adaptec4000A from Computer Surplus Supply in
    California and one of the guys was pretty knowledgeable about amigas
    and hard drives.  You might give them a call, their number should be
    in the RDXX note or Computer Shopper.  What did Supra tech support
    have to say?  Did you ask them about the PAL?

    I have V1.09f of SupraFormat - purchased Jan. 1990

    
    I tried to call them but the line is always busy.
    
    I'll try again later. As i was saying earlier, i may have another Supra
    that i could try but the guy is gone on vacation. I think that will be 
    thing to do to know for sure if it's my Supra or Adaptek.
    
    Stephane.