Conference hydra::amiga_v1

The DEC mouse (new corporate "round" mouse anyway) is RS232. I don't think
the amiga mouse is [rs232], is it?

John

    Re: -.1
    
    I don't see how it could be RS232 without an internal PC card. It's got a
    sub-miniature "DIN" type connector on the end with 7 pins. Since it
    doesn't generate any voltage, I assume the pins are just for the
    buttons and ball rollers. RS232 requires data transmission, DTR, etc.
    
    I'm not using any interface card. I thought perhaps re-mapping the pins
    and placing the connector would work?

    
>    I don't see how it could be RS232 without an internal PC card. It's got a
>    sub-miniature "DIN" type connector on the end with 7 pins. Since it
>    doesn't generate any voltage, I assume the pins are just for the
>    buttons and ball rollers. RS232 requires data transmission, DTR, etc.
>    
>    I'm not using any interface card. I thought perhaps re-mapping the pins
>    and placing the connector would work?

I'm not quite sure what you mean. But if you have a DEC mouse and it's the
round shaped one (as opposed to the rectangular shaped) then it is an RS232
mouse. This pins are power, rx-data, tx-data and ground. DEC does not use 
DTR, CTS or any other RS232 hardware handshaking lines.

John

    I took one apart and see what you mean. I was under the impression that
    it was a simple device, but I see that it acts the way you've
    described. Don't suppose there's a way to modify it; bypassing the
    circuitry and making it work?

    re: .3---Technically, what you have described is not RS-232.  To be
    RS-232 compliant it would need to have a certain 25-pin connector.
        John Sauter

    Have you seen the newest mice?
    They've removed the roller ball and replaced it with two motion sensitve
    buttons.. No cleaning needed.
    

I have always disliked the design of the DEC mouse (even tho it 
won an industrial design award [the judges apparently like the 
looks, but have never used a mouse...]).  The round shape makes 
it possible to have the mouse pointing the wrong way if you don't 
take the time to hold it correctly.  The shape allows your 
fingers to hang over the edge.  If you have long fingernails, 
they'll drag in the desk.

Form follows function???

I'll stick with rectangular mice with buttons on the top, thank 
you.

Randy

re .5: Right. I think it's called a "serial mouse". Not RS232.

John

    Isn't the Dec Mouse produced by Logitech?
    In Amiga_Hardware there's a hardware hack for turning a logitech mouse to
    Amiga Compatible.
    								Ed
    

Yup. I think so. It has a Logitech chip in it...

John

    Re: .7
    
    I don't have a problem with it - but my main motivation is that I have
    one, my mouse won't live much longer, and it's a possible X-windows
    mouse.
    
    
    Re: .9
    
    Yes, it is a logitech mouse (says so on the bottom). I'll check out the
    hardware conference and post any findings here.

    Rather than try to muck about and rewire the harware in the mouse
    wold'nt it be easier since the mouse is serial to hook it up to the
    serial port of the Amy and write a patch for AmigaDos to use the serial
    port for the mouse.
     
    Shaun - (Someone who likes easy solutions !!!)
    

    Re. .5
    
    I think RS232 only defines the voltage level, timing, etc. of the
    signal but says nothing about the connector type.
    
    Chong.

    Well - the serial port idea is interesting (although I'm not crazy
    about the loss of a serial port for the mouse). Any takers?
    
    I found the article that was in amiga.hardware; it is for a different
    Logitech mouse. It has 8 wires, while the DEC has 6 (plus the shield),
    the wire colors don't match, and the serial numbers don't seem to come
    close to matching. So I'm still wondering if a simple hardware fix is
    possible. Here's the article:
    
    
Note 43.0       How To: an inexpensive mouse upgrade/replacement      No replies
FRSOLD::ZIMMERMANN "csusac!riyadth"                  91 lines   6-FEB-1990 08:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!ucbvax!ucdavis!csusac!riyadth
From: [email protected] (Riyadth Al-Kazily)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: How To: an inexpensive mouse upgrade/replacement
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 5 Feb 90 08:30:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Lines: 81
 
 
Inexpensive replacement Amiga mouse How-To
 
After having come across the specs for the Logitech P7 bus mouse, I made
the discovery that it's operation is exactly the same as described in
my Hardware Reference Manual for the standard Amiga mouse.  I happened
across a stash of P7 mice at HSC Electronic Supply in Santa Clara (see
address etc. at the end of this document).  Unfortunately the mice are
only the two button variety, but the price was right, and it is definitely
an improvement over my original mouse - real switches in the buttons even!
 
The mouse is your basic Logitech-type mouse, model number P7-2F-SI.  The
P7 is the type of mouse (Amiga compatible, bus style), the 2F means that
it has 2 buttons (I dont know what the F stands for, do any of you?).
The SI means that it was custom made for Systems Integrators.  The mouse
cord ends in a modular connector with 8 conductors.  In order to connect
it to the Amiga, a female DB9 must be connected, either by cutting the
modular plug off and soldering on the new connector, or (the way I did
it) by getting a modular DB9 adaptor, available at HSC.
 
With this particular mouse there is a slight electrical modification that
must be made for proper operation.  Actually, it is an un-modification,
as the mouse was modified for Systems Integrators' application.  There
is a trace on the mouse circuit board that has been cut and jumpered.  To
use the mouse on the Amiga, the jumper must be removed and the cut trace
restored to it's original route with another jumper.  Then all that remains
is to route the 8 conductors in the wire to the correct 8 pins on the
Amiga's mouse port.
 
The connections should go something as follows:
 
      Amiga pin #   function        P7 wire color
         1           V-pulse          brown
         2           H-pulse          grey
         3           VQ-pulse         green
         4           HQ-pulse         yellow
         5           middle           blue   (does not apply to this mouse)
         6           left             black
         7           +5v              white
         8           GND              pink
         9           right            clear
 
Note that the colors given may not be correct for all mice, so you may
want to open it up and check.  The following is a pseudo-diagram of
the circuit board with colors in their appropriate place:
 
      |      L-BUTTON                                    R-BUTTON
      |
      | (top row)   ___    (bottom row)
      |            /___
      |  white    o/___o-  brown
      |  green    o/___o-  yellow         LOGIMOUSE
      |  grey     o/___o-  pink                  P7
      |  blue     o/___o-  clear                REV D
      |  black    o/   o-  red  (shield gnd)
      |
      |
      +----------------------------------------------------------------
 
And finally, for the information on how to get this mouse.  Firstly, the
cost of the mouse was $7.95, and I was able to find one new in it's
original packing box, although many were out of the packaging.  The
address of HSC is as follows:
 
                HSC Electronic Supply
                3500 Ryder Street
                Santa Clara, CA  95051
                orders - (800) 4-HALTED
                 in CA - (408) 732-1573
                customer service - (408) 732-1854
 
Minimum order is $10 + shipping, $2 fee for orders under $20.
Don't forget to order DB9's and hoods if you need to bring your order
over $10, or order a couple for friends.
 
Have fun with the mouse.  Now if only I could find a 3 button P7
lying around...
 
-- 
      -------------------------------------------------------------
 riyadth alkazily                        {ucdavis,lll-crg}!csusac!riyadth
    

    If you were to use the serial port with a software patch I think
    you would be giving up a lot in performance.I may be wrong but isn't
    this how the I** does it.I've always considered the built in mouse
    port one of the amigas better offerings. Lets put this in perspective!
    What is the MOUSE ? In most user situations it is the main interface
    supporting almost all software used on the amiga.No matter how
    power fullyour system is an no matter what what options you have
    you depend on your mouse to interface to it. If you doubt this unplug
    it for a night. The above said it always amazes me when I hear of
    people wanting to use a kludge involving the mouse. Of course I
    realize that peoples finances differ,and I don't want anyone to
    think "it's easy for him to say",but I would suggest delaying the
    next game purchase or two and buy a mouse designed for the Amiga.
    	A while back i bit the bullet and bought an optical mouse. 
    I admit I did not wait until it became necessary,but I've have never
    regreted it.NOW I have a great feeling mouse and it has 3 buttons
    designed to work with the amiga. With 1.4 applications likely to
    support a three button mouse this may be a decision facing all 
    amiga owners in the near future.Guess i tend to ramble on,but this
    is because the difference a good mouse makes leaves a lasting
    impression. FWIT I've yet to see a replacement mouse (aside from
    the boing) that has the quality of the original amiga mouse.
    							bill

    I agree that the serial port connection, while it may work, is not very
    desirable. Fortunately - I'm not in the boat where my Amiga mouse
    doesn't work, so I'm not "in a bind". I have this DEC mouse (it's hard
    to beat something for free) with 3 buttons and wanted to find out if it
    was possbile (and what it would take) to connect it up. I find the
    DEC mouse pretty decent - optical sensors, few moving parts, real
    buttons. I'm sure if someone came up with a hack to make it work -
    there would be several people here interested. It makes an interesting
    project, and DEC mice are easy to come by for some people. (You could
    have also said "avoid a headache and buy" to all those that worked
    hard and got DEC RD disk drives working). :-)
    
    Anyone have any other ideas on how to make this work? Perhaps I should
    post a query on one of the Hackers or other conferences?
    
    
    P.S. I use my system without a mouse many times - the AMIGA/SHIFT/Arrow
    and ALT/AMIGA keys work fine. (but then again, I'm a heavy CLI user and
    often only need to activate the shell or a couple of icons). ;-)

	re -1 point well taken(the price is right). I guess
I just lost the hacking spirit when I started working long hours.
I barely have time to do the things I want on the amiga so I am not 
prone to things that involve hacking vs modest sums of money. I think
you may be right in that many people here would like to use the mouse 
if the interface work were already done. This conference is most likely
still your best bet for help on a project such as this. Their are many
hardware savvy guys using the Amiga,and am sure you can get the info 
required. the posting from usenet was a good start. I am not sure that 
schematics ect: will be available for a item we buy to resell.
	
	Looking at a product we build that interfaces the mouse
to several cpu's I see a connector "to mouse device"
	pin 1 to ground through an inductor
	pin 2 to mouse_in through an inductor
	pin 3 to mouse_out through an inductor
	pin 4 to  -12v through an inductor 
	pin 5 to  +5 through an inductor
	pin 7 to mouse press pulled up with a resistor to +5

Amiga mouse connections
	1 mouse V   mouse vertical
	2 mouse V	mouse horizontal
	3 mouse VQ mouse vertical quadrature
	4 mouse HQ  mouse horizontal quadrature
	5 mouse button 2 	mouse button 2
	6 mouse button 1	mousebutton 1
	7 +5	+5 volts power (+5v 125ma)
	8 GND		Ground
	9 Mouse button 3	Mouse button 3
	
	Now I am not sure how the amiga mouse data is used by the processor.
I think it is controlled by another chip(the cursor is said to be a hardware
sprite). looking at the connector I tend to feel they are using raw Analog
signals and converting them somehow,while with the DEC mouse you have a 
serial bit stream being read in. You may want to look back through this note
file for notes where people have converted Trac balls to the amiga. If nothing
else it will give a better understanding on what may be happening.
								bill

Regard software-
	Not long ago I posted 3-BUT to the net.This was a hack that allowed 
one to use the middle button for extended select. The docs were in the form
of the assembly source code.
								bill

re -1 I forgot to mention i had nothing to do wit 3-but exept to post 
it .(came frpm plink)
						bill

    if you really want to know how the dec mouse works, look into the
    appendix of the VCB02 Technical manual (GPX Q Bus module)
    It describes the mouse + protocol in enough detail.
    
    It also describes the LK201 Keyboard protocol.
    
    Both devices use 4800 Baud Rs232 level serial connection.
    
    You could try the ancient mechanical mouse DEC had, it should work
    with pulse signals on TTL level, but don't ask me about details.
    (used on VSI or early VSII Vaxstations)
    
    happy hacking    Guenter