Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Yesterday (Saturday) I checked out this article at Memory Location in
    Wellesley, Mass.  They seemed a bit confused about prices beyond the
    basic A2000, but quoted:
    
    		   Model	Price with Tradein
    		   -----	------------------
    		A2000		$899
    		A2000HD		$1699
    		Offer good until March 31
    
    A $800 premium for a hard disk sounds rather high, so I suspect one of
    these numbers is off.  But the deal is indeed real.
    
    Wes

    
    So... the trick this time is to find a dealer that just wants the
    keyboard to send in?  (there has been mention on the usenet of
    folks running an A2000 keyboard on a A1000)  I think that keyboard
    costs about $130 at the CBM repair places.
    
    After all, what are the dealers supposed to do with the A1000 box
    without the keyboard?
    
    -Dave

    
    It looks to me like this may be a strong message to A1000 owners that
    THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE to get with the program.  Future versions of
    the Amiga OS will simply not work in a 512K environment.  If you are
    happy with v 1.3 and feel that your current software will satisfy your
    needs for all eternity, fine.                             
    
    In spite of this offer being extended (in various forms) for the third
    time, there will be the usual rantings from those who feel that
    Commodore owes them free hardware upgrades for life.  To those who feel
    that CBM has been grossly unfair, I direct you to Apple's generous
    upgrade policy for Mac + to Mac SE (ie; throw away Plus and purchase
    new SE) or MacIIcx to MacIIci ($2300 motherboard swap).
    
    Ed.
    

    re: simply not work in a 512K environment
    
    But the A1000 isn't limited to 512K.  It isn't as cheap to upgrade
    to >512K as the A500, but it can be done without hacking on the
    hardware.
    
    For those of us considering doing the trade-in, I imagine the big
    questions are how to migrate the peripherals to the A2000.  I remember
    some company selling adapter board, has anybody tried it?  is
    it still available?  Is there a board available in the US that
    will provide a loadable kickstart without having to buy the
    68020 or 68030 board?
    
    -Dave

    	I think this is the time all 1000 owners should start looking
    to upgrade. While it is true that the 1000 can be expanded beyound
    512k I don't think this is the issue. I feel the answer is more
    in tune with the fatter agnus,and the extended chip set. I also
    feel that CBM has gone overboard in it's effort to support the 1000
    system,and knowing it will not have the ability to do so in the
    future is offering a do or die package to 1000 owners. I see two
    ways the 1000 owners can go 
    	1) run out and buy all the software you think you will need,and
    be content to know that any updates to registered owners may very
    well not run on the 1000.
    	2)upgrade.
    	In the past I have looked at the 1000 as a good alternative
    to not owning an amiga. However I would not recommend a 1000 to
    a new user today. I would highly discourage such a purchase. The
    current 1000 owners are mostly pretty savvy,and could get by for
    a while,but a new user would not have a prayer.
    							bill

    
>	 Well folks, Commodore is finally trying to orphan the A-1000.  They
>	have reinstituted the A-1000 trade in towards a A-2000 deal.  Here
>	are the prices.
>	Your A-1000 plus $999 for a 2000
>	Your A-1000 plus $1599 for a 2000HD
>	Your A-1000 plus $2999 for a 2500/30

    It seems to be a bad choice in Germany.
    A new B2000 costs about DM1800 (US$1000).

    Is there a way to make a deal in Germany, too???
    
    Cheers
    Gerald
        

    
    
    Out of curiosity... does anyone know the price of a 2000 without
    trade in. 
    
    I bought my 1000 as a "spare", so I could drag it to work for
    downloads, let the kids play games ( keeps them off the 500 ).
    While I like having the second system ( only cost $100), if the
    trade in allowance is good enough I might not be able to pass it
    up. I'll probably sell the 500 too.
    
    brien
    

    
    
    	The list price for an AMIGA 2000 is $1999.00 . To use the
    Amiga 1000 trade-in the Amiga 2000 MUST be sold for list price. So,
    you get $1000 off list price ( you pay $999 ).
    	The memory location price for a AMIGA 2000 is about $1600.00 .
    
    
    		Steve Peters
    		who just traded in an old 1000
    

    Since a few people have by now taken advantage of the offer, perhaps
    they could share their experiences.  Some questions...
    
    Does any New England dealer deviate from the prices in .0?  (Are my
    quotes in .1 wrong?)
    
    Has anyone tried to keep or buy back the A1000 system unit?
    
    Any extras in the A2000 packages?  For instance, for a while some
    dealers were adding the old 8088 Bridgeboards at no charge, presumably
    to clear out inventory.
    
    Wes

    The dealer here in Connecticut says you can keep the A1000 unit, all
    he wants is the keyboard. (a $900 keyboard!)
    
    I say keep the unit. Use it as a mouse-only system, BBS, serial-port
    CLI, or hack a keyboard! It will always play games.
    
    

    Anybody knows how long is this offer going to be on?

Re: .9

The "Just give me keyboard, keep the system box" trade-in:

On a recent Fish disk, there was a little software keyboard.  You clicked
the mouse on it software keyboard's keys, and it would send keystrokes
to another window.

The latest Amiga World has a full page ad from Commodore advertising
the trade-in deal.  Prices are stated for all of the different models
of the 2000: Vanilla 2000, the 2000HD, the 2500HD, etc.

This is the first time to my knowledge that Commodore has ever
advertised the 1000 buy back deal.

Given that they are offering the program again, and that they
want the 1000 disabled (no keyboard), and that they are advertising
the program, I suspect that the theories expressed in previous
replies is correct.  Commodore wants to drop support for the 1000,
and is making a major effort to buy up the machines.

    
    re .9
    
    	I have talked with 2 dealers here and both dealers said that the
    Amiga 1000 must be removed from service. CBM only wants the keyboard
    as proof, but any dealer that offers any deal to "buy back" or sell
    the Amiga 1000 is asking for trouble. As always, I'm sure you will find
    some dealer that thinks he will not get caught.
    
    
    	As for time, the deal is scheduled to last until the end of March.
    
    		Steve
    

    Well it seems to me that if the dealer is simply to throw the thing
    away, that there really isn't anything to "get caught" at. My dealer's
    attitude is "what would I do with the thing". It seems to me that once
    CBM officially drops the A1000, it doesn't make a difference if you
    have one to them. Besides, I know several people that are keeping
    theirs.
    

    
    re .16
    
    	I understand the attitude. I also see CBM working very hard to
    improve their image. I just hope these people don't cause problems
    for CBM when they need a part or later sell the machine to a new
    Amiga user. CBM is paying money to prevent these kinds of problems.
    
    	The "get caught" comes more from honesty than anything else. When
    the dealer sends the keyboard and paper work to CBM he states that he
    has followed the terms of the upgrade. In this case he has not.
    
    
    		Steve
    

       How about us Canadians?  Are we going to get hosed again?  A quick
       call to CBM Canada indicated that they were thinking about it.  A
       call to one of the local (and largest in Ottawa) Amiga dealers
       resulted in a "don't hold your breath" response.
       
       Any of you folks in Montreal, Toronto, or Calgary heard anything
       different?  Any of your local user groups discussing the issue?
       
       Maybe I should just go south of the border and trade up.  Not what
       I want to do, but I'm tired of being treated like a second cousin.
       
       Art
       
       
       

    
    
    I am not sure the deal is "from" Commodore, but a store in 
    Montreal offers the following deal:
    
    All prices in Canadian $. Remove 18% to convert in US$.
    	(but add 9% for provincial sales tax.)
    
    B2000  $2100.00 (base model, normal price)
    	   $1500.00 if given a A1000 in exchange
    	   $2080.00 "   "    "   "   "    "     (B2000HD)
    	   $1500.00 if given a C64 in exchange
    	   $2080.00 "   "    " C64   "    "     (B2000HD)
    	   $1300.00 "    "   " A500  "    "
    	   $1800.00 "    "   " A500  "    "     (B2000HD)
    	   $1430.00 "    "   an IBM  "    "    (YES, an IBM!!!)
    	   $1980.00 "    "   "   "   "    "     "     "   "   (B2000HD)
    	   
    Note the "C64" is 64-1541-1802      
    
    One other deal is that if you want to buy a "full price" B2000
    ($2100.00) you can get an IBM. 640K, 101 Keys, 5�" drive ect for
    $200.00 more.
    
    		P.S. Pay in May, no interrest...
    
    I beleive it's not bad..
    
    Vince.

    Okay, time to start some trouble ;^). Why should I upgrade to an A2xxx?
    With the barrage (well two or three constitutes a barrage, doesn't it?)
    of "turn-your-A1000-into-not-quite-an-A2000" boards on their way, wouldn't
    upgrading the existing A1000 be a viable solution? Just supposin' that
    one of these products delivers 80% of its claims in a semi-seamless
    fashion, wouldn't that be swell? For instance, at about half the
    upgrade price, the DVS Wonder claims:

          o Use of the Fat or Enhanced Agnus (512k or 1meg of Chip ram)
          o Use of the Enhanced Denise.
          o Software select one of three Kickstart ROMS; 1.2, 1.3, or 1.4.
          o A2000 compatible Clock, with battery backup.

    And for those of us having trouble justifying new capital purchases to
    them finance people, there's the cheapskate's build it yourself version
    Okay, on the down side, there are no processor/bridgeboard, video, or
    expansion slots, and the serial and parallel ports could be a headache
    for those digi-view/perfect sound type devices (assuming that the A1000
    versions will be discontinued). Also, the "support" disk mentioned for
    the DVS sounds a little frightening. Oh, and you'd probably want to
    adapt an A2000 keyboard to the whole mess.

    I'd love to upgrade to an A2000, but I really like the A1000. It's got
    a keyboard garage, aesthetically pleasing to the eye, and the mouse,
    joystick, and keyboard ports are in the right place. The Mon'AMI'Jr.
    takes care of the expansion slots quite nicely and who needs those
    stinking I*M slots anyways.

    Please help me make a decision! Remember, this offer expires March 31st...

    Pete

    P.s. All tax-deductible donations to the "Help-Petey-Buy-An-A2000" fund
         can be sent to me, Petey, c/o DEC @NIO/A6.

    I just returned from my dealer.  The letter from Comodore to dealers
    does not say anything about turning in your entire 1000 - just the
    keyboard. Their opinion is that the other dealers did not read it
    correctly. I'm beginning to believe that it is not necessary to turn
    your 1000 CPUs in to any dealer. Maybe someone should call CBM and ask?

    Re: .20
    
    I'd advise you to have the DSV folks signing a document that their
    claims are true, especially regarding the ECS Denise and KS 1.4.
    
    Anything short of the DSV stuff (if it works!) will leave you pretty
    much in a vacuum in the not to far future...
    
    Regards,
    
    <CB>_who's_speaking_too_much_again

    Of course I don't expect 1.4 to come on floppy this time around.So
    if you want to run 1.4 you may have to upgrade.Any means of putting
    1.4 on a 1000 short of buying the rom kit would most likely not
    be legal.
    							bill

Re: .23

>    Of course I don't expect 1.4 to come on floppy this time around.

I expect that 1.4 WILL be shipped on floppy.  I expect Kickstart to
be shipped on a floppy until AmigaDOS doesn't run on a Amiga 1000.

I'll be very surprised if 1.4 out right breaks the 1000.  Unless they
are going to require the extended chip set or one meg of chip ram, I
don't see what Commodore could do to break the 1000.

I do see the possibility that running 1.4 on a 512K machine might
not be worth it.

    
    To complicated things a bit further :-)
    
    Your options are:
    
    1. trade-in the 1000+$1000 for a 2000
    
    2. trade-in the 1000's keyboard+$1000 for a 2000 
       (if you find a dealer willing to do that)
       and buy a 2000 keyboard to put on the 1000
    
    3. Wait for 1.4 to come out, then buy a new 2000 with the 1.4 ROM and
       the enhanced chip set.  Maybe by then the list price might even
       be cheaper due to increased price competition from VGA/80386
       pc clones.
       Use the 1000 to run all that stuff that breaks on 1.4, or broke
       with 1.1, 1.2, or 1.3.
    
    With options 1 & 2, you will still need to buy the 1.4 ROM and the
    new Denise chip.  So you should add approx. $200? to the cost of
    buying now instead of waiting.  Also consider if CBM comes out with
    a 32 bit bus box, that might be a better investment than the current
    2000 box.
    
    -Dave

    If CBM comes out with a 32 bit machine I'd expect the price to be
    quite high,and as for lower 2000 prices due to competition from
    IBM ect: We already offer much more for less money,I don't think
    that we need lower prices to be competive.Sure you can get barebone
    386,286 systems fairly cheap but they cannot compare with the 2000.
    	I know one person who wants to upgrade but lacks funds.Now if
    you cannot upgrade for 1000.00  doubt you will be able to take
    advantage of any price decrease that may come in the near future.
    In regards to 1.4 I know nothing about it but I hope to god that
    CBM does base 1.4 on the new chipset,making it required. It seems
   foolish to bring around a new operating revision and not take FULL
    advantage of the new chipset.I want to see 1.4 intergrated with
    the new chips as close as possible,even if it means I'll have to
    run 1.3 until I can afford the chipset update.Maybe this is why
    the push to kill off the 1000. This last update may not do this
    but I feel the intent is there.CBM will be able to say "you had
    plenty of chances" to any disgruntled 1000 holdouts. The 1000 is
    still very usefull(i know of several full blown units) but it will
    take the exceptional hacker to keep up with 1.4. I still say cut
    your losses now ,and run with the upgrade.
    							bill

    I doubt that 1.4 will _require_ the new chipset, for the same reason
    that Workbench 1.3 did not _require_ Kickstart 1.3: it's too hard to
    co�rdinate simultaneous releases.  I do expect that 1.4 will take
    advantage of the new chipset, if it is present.
        John Sauter

Re: .27

>    I doubt that 1.4 will _require_ the new chipset, for the same reason
>    that Workbench 1.3 did not _require_ Kickstart 1.3: it's too hard to
>    co�rdinate simultaneous releases.

I don't believe that 1.4 will require the new chip set, but I'm, not 
completely willing to rule it out.  For a ROM based system to use 1.4,
you will have to take it to the dealer's and have him replace the
Kickstart ROMs.  Since the system has to be in the shop anyway, Commodore
could conceivably require the extended chip set to be installed
as part of the upgrade.

    I also would be surprised if 1.4 required the new chipset. All of those
    people out there who use Amigas and aren't real computer nuts would not
    be to impressed.
    
    Aha I hear you say they don't need to upgrade, true, but what about
    software manufacturers who distribute their software on Amigados disks?
    
    Regards
    	Mike

Re: .9

I find it hard to believe that _some_ upgrade of AmigaDOS will not
require the new chipset.  I don't think that it will that big of
a problem for the non-computer nuts.  Upgrading the operating system
of a ROM based computer means taking it into a dealer and having
him or her replace some components.  To the non-compiler freak,
whether that replacement is just swap some ROMs or swap ROMS and
custom chips is invisible (except for the price).  And the
price can be explained if you can show new features, like non-interlaced
high res.

    But a lot of people will probably never use non-interlaced hi-res
    because it requires an expensive (multi-sync) monitor, right?

Re: .31

>    But a lot of people will probably never use non-interlaced hi-res
>    because it requires an expensive (multi-sync) monitor, right?

Multi-sync monitors are getting down to the $400 to $500 price range, which
isn't that much more expensive than regular monitors.

I've been recommending for a long time that people not by the Commodore
monitor, but instead invest in a reasonable multi-sync.  I wish that
Commodore and dealers wouldn't push the 1080 (1084) monitors so much:
it would be better for people to get a monitor that will allow them
to use all the Amiga's features in the future, and to have to sell
the 1080 and buy a new monitor if they want non-interlaced high res.

    I'm thinking of buying a monitor for my amiga but I have not heard
    of multi-sync monitors. Could someone put in a simple explanation
    of how they work, the advantages over an ordinary monitor and any
    software that makes use of their extra (?) facilities?
    
    Thanks,
    Barry.

    
    See note 3473.3.
    
    If I may, I'd recommend the Princeton Ultrasync for around $450 (mail
    order).  The Princeton features 800 x 600 pixels and has very crisp
    text and excellent color.  It's a 12" monitor, but the display can be
    infinitely adjusted for both height and width to fill up the display
    area or shrink it down.
    
    Another good choice is the Mitsubishi Diamondscan model(s), which, in
    addition to doing what multisyncs do, also feature composite video
    input, which is nice if you're going to be recording to videotape.
    
    Pick up a copy of Computer Shopper if you need to find prices or
    availability of monitors.
    
    Ed.

    I know that most (some???) of us have "full blown" Amigas (2000 with
    lots of memory, multisynced flicker-fixed monitors...) but isn't
    software done for the common denominator like 500s with at the most 1
    meg and two floppies?
    
    Jean
    
    When I bought my 2000, I also bought a NEC multisync II.  Not too long
    ago, I bought a flicker fixer, and sold the pair a week after, the
    reason:  the flicker fixer is not compatible with a genlock unless a
    small dauther board is added (and then only for the Amigen and
    Supergen), the display is smaller (ok, slightly), and I still needed an
    extra monitor to see what was coming out of my frame grabber.  Now I'm
    happy as a lark with the RGB port feeding the genlock then the frame
    grabber and then the monitor, a C=1080!
    
    Oh, when I had the multisync with NO flicker fixer, a LOT of games
    would NOT work because the screen would "roll" (50hz pal????)
    

    
    Jean, I've never had the problems you described with my FlickerFixer. 
    Is it possible that your board is bad?
    
    The beauty of the Flicker Fixer is that it does it's thing AFTER the
    video signal has left the Denise chip.  It steals no CPU cycles or
    video memory.
    
    About the only negative effect of the FF is that some games with very
    fast horizontal scrolling may blur.
    
    As far as the picture size goes, that is why I recommended the
    Princeton.  The Princeton can scale the display up or down to account
    for any changes that the FF introduces to the final display.  It can
    also shift the entire display up, down, left or right.
    
    Actually, I think an ideal solution to this whole issue of new graphics
    modes would be for Commodore to release a monitor with built-in frame
    buffer AND user-selectable NTSC.
    
    If Commodore doesn't drive the technology, the poor userbase will
    simply become confused with all the different video solutions.
    
    Ed.

    If you don't have a genlock, you don't have any problems.  As for the
    rolling screen, this was experienced in pre-flicker fixer days, if you
    have the right cable, you could try it yourself by disconnecting the FF
    and connecting the monitor directly to the RGB port and trying some
    games like Packmania, flacon early version (these are the ones that
    come to mind) and most if not all demos coming from Europe.  Then again
    this could have been a problem with the NEC and may not show up on your
    princeton monitor.
    
    The flicker fixer did it's job quite nicely, but the C= monitor was a
    more attractive solution to me anyway.
    
    Jean
    

    A3000 rumor, why settle for upgrading to a mere A2000 or A2500 :-)
    
    Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!lll-winken!uwm.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!prls!pyramid!wjvax!mel
From: [email protected] (Mel Tolentino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: A3000 Debuts in Paris
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 14 Feb 90 10:28:43 GMT
Reply-To: [email protected] (Mel Tolentino)
Organization: Watkins-Johnson Co., San Jose
Lines: 43
 
 
This is all hardware isn't it...?
 
 
I've summarized the following info from a local BBS and seems fairly reliable.
Further comments or info would be appreciated.
 
 
 
                     A3000 DEBUTS IN PARIS!!!!!!!!!
 
             * 68030 16 or 25Mhz on the Motherboard (asynchronous)!
             * 32 bit bus for memory and I/O (backward compatible with ZorroII)
             * 50 Mb hard drive (don't know if SCSI)  
             * 2 megs Chip Ram!
             * Flicker-Fixer included
             * 1.4 ECS giving virtual screen 1280 x 485 pixels w/wo interlace.
             * Smaller nicer case with PC slots and 4 Amiga expansion slots.
             * Power switch on front, keyboard connector on side.
             * Price unknown :-( !
 
I'm a little disappointed that newer graphic modes were not introduced but
feel the 32 bit bus plus asynchronous 68030 will make this one quick machine!
 
The BBS I got this from is JDR-BBS located in San Jose, Ca (408) 559-0253
 
-Mel
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                   oo
 
                   jj
    ww     ww      jj
    ww www ww  jj  jj
     ww   ww    jjjj
 
     Mel Tolentino  (Watkins-Johnson Co.  San Jose, Calif.)
{{..!{hplabs,ucbvax,sun}!pyramid,..!decwrl!qubix}!wjvax!mel

    This sounds really great ! It represents a new generation Ami which
    could have maybe a better chance on the professional market.
    
    Sorin

    Re: .38
    
    Well, I'll keep to my end of the non-disclosure agreement, but let
    me tell you folks one thing:
    Don't believe everything you read (means: some of this info is
    definitivly false). 
    
    I'm truly sorry that it took less than a week for some moron to
    spill those infos. I sure know how the folks who are developing
    the fault-tolorant VAX must feel about early disclosures...
    
    <CB>

    re: -.1
�    Well, I'll keep to my end of the non-disclosure agreement, but let
�    me tell you folks one thing:
�    Don't believe everything you read (means: some of this info is
�    definitivly false). 

    Well done Christian! I was wondering how to say that without 
    compromising the NDA.
    
    				Alan T.
    

    Can someone, with out violating their non-disclosure agreement, let us
    know if kickstart 1.4 will be available for the 1000?  I don't have
    a $1000 to upgrade at this time, but I would like to at least upgrade
    to 1.4.  I do realize and expect that I would not have a full 
    functionality of 1.4 with the 1000 and the old chip set.
    

    Re: .42
    
    Nah, but simply because I don't know. But I'm pretty certain that
    CBM will not drop support for A1000 with 1.4. 
    A 512K machine might not functional...
    And you can always count on some vivid 3rd party developer to come
    out with a Kickstart ROM adapter for the A1000...
    
    As far as 1.4x or 1.5 are concerned, your guess is as good as mine,
    but at some point in time you'll have to part with your A1000 or
    stay behind in the OS development.
    
    Regards,
    
    <CB>

    re: .42
    
    It isn't really fair to ask people to "come close" to violating their
    non-disclosure agreements.  I suggest that those of us who want to know
    refrain from asking leading questions out of politeness until the
    information is released generally.
        John Sauter

re               <<< Note 3429.44 by SAUTER::SAUTER "John Sauter" >>>
>                              -< let's be nicer >-

>    re: .42
    
>    It isn't really fair to ask people to "come close" to violating their
>    non-disclosure agreements.  I suggest that those of us who want to know
>    refrain from asking leading questions out of politeness until the
>    information is released generally.
>        John Sauter

	Well, yes - but.

	Lets  ALL  be nicer in this regard ?  how about,
"If you have signed a NDA (with anyone) please don't publicise that fact here" 


	It "isn't really fair" to say,  "I gotta secret"  and  NOT  
expect people to enquire a little.


	R

    
    I apologize for .42,  I did not know what type of information could or
    could not be asked, that is why I specificly asked that the NDA was NOT 
    to be violated.  I do realize the importance in NOT divulging specific 
    information of any type of classification.  
    
    Once again, I apologize if this came to close.
    
    Pete Snider
    
    P.S. I'm very glad that the ones who have been lucky to see it have
    been impressed.
    

    I personally like the fact that it has been stated by some that they
    have an NDA. It shows me that there is a serious level on interest with
    some DEC employees, and it helps provide a source of reliable
    information when things can be stated. NDA's, by CBM or DEC, are never
    intended as an "I'm better than you" tease. If it really bothers you,
    register yourself as a real Amiga developer and get one yourself (no
    I'm not being sarcastic). It is very obvious that <CB> has been a major
    contributor to this notesboard. I don't deny him his excitement at
    learning new things from CBM before others.


    					Keith
    				(who does not have one by the way)

    Why in the world should Pete Snider apologize?
    
    John Sauter writes:
>    It isn't really fair to ask people to "come close" to violating their
>    non-disclosure agreements.  I suggest that those of us who want to know
>    refrain from asking leading questions out of politeness until the
>    information is released generally.
    
    _Of course_ we will ask leading questions!  That's how the
    non-disclosure game is played.  And, of course, Christian Balzer or
    whoever else will say "Sorry, I'm not at liberty," or just not answer
    the question, when he feels uncomfortable.  It's all a little like
    flirtation -- both sides enjoy it even though nothing of consequence
    happens.
    
    Seems to me that we, Digital, train salespeople in just the techniques
    that CB is showing in his answers.  CB has also contributed some small
    bit of first-hand observation to the topic thread, compared to the
    rampant speculation of other replies.  He has also, if you read his
    recent contributions closely, told us _nothing_ about future products.
    
    BTW, I read Pete's question as specifically _not_ asking CB to cross
    the line.  Mr. Sauter, loosen your surcingle a bit.
    
    Wes Plouff

    Re: .44-.48
    
    Huh, no need to get all excited here, fellas. ;-)
    I can relate to both .44 and .45, but hey, I'm supposed to be grown
    up by now and will handle touchy questions at my discretion. And
    it was well known that I'm a commercial developer before the Paris
    DevCon.
    
    All in all (not one ;-), relax everybody. This is _NOT_ UseNet or
    SoapBox... ;-)
    
    Regards,
    <CB>

    I don't think of non-disclosure agreements as opportunities for
    flirtation.  When I attend DECUS there are always things I can't
    talk about.  When a customer asks me a question about such a thing
    I always say ``Sorry, I can't talk about unannounced products.''
    In my experience, the customer always changes the subject upon
    hearing that response.  I consider changing the subject (and not
    returning to it) the polite thing to do.
    
    Does Digital train salespeople in flirtation?  I don't know, having
    never been a Digital salesperson.  However, I once talked to an IBM
    salesperson who wanted very badly to tell us something he wasn't
    supposed to talk about.  He managed to get the information across
    by using leading remarks and confirming correct guesses.  It was fun
    at the time, but thinking about it afterwards I realized it was wrong
    of us to participate in his "game".  If companies like Digital and
    CBM are going to be willing to reveal important information under
    non-disclosure to those who need it in advance of public announcement,
    they have to feel that the non-disclosure agreements are being kept.
    Even an appearance of carelessness with the information can lead to
    its decreased use, to the detriment of those who need it.
    
    What's a `surcingle'?  If it's a kind of necktie, I'm not wearing one,
    appearances to the contrary notwithstanding.
        John Sauter

    'Surcingle' has a meaning from medieval times.  A surcingle was the
    belt used to fasten a king's  -- or wizard's -- robe.  Now my gentle
    intent should be pellucid, no? :-)
    
    Wes

    I've discovered that there a at least a few dealers that are leting
    people "buy" back their A1000 system (sans keyboard) for a few hundred
    dollars.

    Usenetters have mentioned that there are places which will take the
    keyboard only and give you the discount.  No money paid for the A1000
    at all.  I'd suggest calling around and asking various places if they
    are willing to do this.
    
    If the dealer takes your machine he gets to keep it sort of as a bonus
    at your expense.  Commodore does not want it and I don't think they
    have stipulated that the dealer must take it away for scrap so I'd
    try to keep it if I still had one.  After all you can always get a new
    A2000 keyboard.  If nothing else you can probably take out the floppy
    and put into your new A2000.  Plus you'll have a set of spare 8520's
    etc...
    
    -steve

    I deleted the .14 reply I posted.  Turns out the instructions for
    connecting a A2000 keyboard to an A1000 were NOT correct according to
    other information on usenet.  It is possible to do this correctly, and
    other postings gave more precise directions.  If anybody is interested
    I'll post it here.
    
    sorry 'bout that,
    dennis

    re .55:
    Interesting timing.  I just finished building a working cable at 1:30am
    this morning by copying wire for wire an existing working cable.
    (After all the usenet talk of smoking your keyboard, this seemed the
     safest route to go).  It seems to work - I tried it for about a half
    hour last nite.  I want to do a bit more testing with it to be sure
    before posting.
    
    dennis
    

	Well that March 31 deadline for the A1000-->A2000 upgrade is 
	fast approaching. Has anyone found a dealer in New England 
	that will sell us an A2000 for $999 plus an A1000 Keyboard?

	I checked with System Eyes and the Memory Location. One of 
	them want's the A1000 box and the other will sell back the
	A1000 box for $200. 

	For me, finding or not finding "the deal" will probably determine
	if I upgrade or not.  I have a hard time justifying the $999 for
	the A2000 plus $150? (for a new SCSI controller) plus $150? (to get 
	me back up to 2MB) all so I can run 1.4, run future software, and 
	have an upgrade path to a 68030 or 68040 (for another $2-3K).
	
	But, since I am a sucker for a good deal, somehow I can justify
	it if I end up with an A2000 and my old A1000 system box. In such 
	case I could use the A1000 for dedicated real-time applications 
	like a heart rate monitor during exercise or a telescope movement 
	controller, or whatever. (well I least I can tell myself I'll
	use it for such constructive purposes.)

	Thanks for any pointers to dealers that will accept $999 plus an
	A1000 keyboard for an A2000 (or any other good deals).

	Gary

    Thanks to Gary, for entering that last reply on my behalf (how'd he
    read my mind, I mean, like, word for word, and with all them cobwebs up
    there), but I must come clean. After all, the first step to overcoming
    cheapskater's syndrome is admission...

    > But, since I am a sucker for a good deal, somehow I can justify
    > it if I end up with an A2000 and my old A1000 system box.

    What I can't figure is, Commodore's offering something like $350 bucks
    to the dealers (or maybe $350 off the cost of an A2XXX) for the
    keyboard, but some dealers would rather resell the complete A1K's for
    more money instead. This makes good profit margin sense, I suppose, but
    doesn't this kinda defeat the whole purpose of the upgrade offer for
    Commodore? If they really want to bury the A1000, shouldn't they be
    saying "Give us the whole A1000, or else!".

    I don't want to miss out on the future possibilities that the A2000
    offers, but I hate to give up a great machine, especially when there's
    still some hope ala Rejuvenator, et al.

    One more consideration (maybe paranoia would be a better word) is the
    hardware revision of the A2K box. Will dealers be "unloading" their
    in-stock rev 4.x motherboards to the upgrade folks? How much wheeling
    and dealing clout will I have with an upgrade versus a "regular" sale?
    Dare I ask for a rev 6.x motherboard, fatter aggie box with say a NEC
    floppy in place of the stock Chinon? Will they tell me to go elsewhere
    or perhaps pound silica into an orifice?

    Making this all gel by the end of March is going to be tricky. I really
    cannot afford nor justify this upgrade at the moment, but it's always
    tough for a cheapskate to pass up a deal. Maybe I should just wait and
    see what falls through the cracks, but I fear that by the time I can
    "afford" it I'll be buying someones used A2000 'cause they're buying a
    newly announced A3000 8^(.

    Gimme some flack, please!

    Pete

    I'm looking to pick up one of these keyboardless A1000 systems somehow.
    If anyone considering this tradeup does not have the intention of
    keeping the base unit, please send me EMAIL. I might be willing to pay
    the $100-$200 "buyback" fee to keep the unit. As I said earlier, a
    Connecticut dealer was allowing people to keep them. If this is still true,
    then a second possibility is that someone will perform the tradeup there
    and I could get the unit and I'll pay the original owner a small fee?

Re: .58

>    One more consideration (maybe paranoia would be a better word) is the
>    hardware revision of the A2K box.

Whatever the dealer has on his shelves.

>    Will dealers be "unloading" their in-stock rev 4.x motherboards to
>    the upgrade folks?

Probably not.  Most of the dealers I know keep only a small number of
2000s in their inventory.  Turn over keeps the stock "fresh": you would
probably have a hard time finding a dealer selling machines without
the 1 Meg Agnus.

>    How much wheeling and dealing clout will I have with an upgrade
>    versus a "regular" sale?  Dare I ask for a rev 6.x motherboard,
>    fatter aggie box with say a NEC floppy in place of the stock
>    Chinon?

Probably no problem getting a late rev board and a 1 meg Agnus
since that is probably what you would get anyway.  Don't know
about the floppy...

Hey, call up a dealer and ask.  What can it hurt?


The only bit of paranoia I'd have is for people upgrading to a
2000HD.  Make sure that the disk controller is the 2091.  I think
that the 2000HD based on the 2091 is still young enough that you
might be able to find a dealer selling machines equipped with
2090As.  The 2091 works better than the 2090(A), and also gives
you sockets for another two meg of memory.

Folks upgrading to a 2500/30 are probably safe.  That configuration
is to new to be anything but the latest stuff.

    re back a couple:
    I was in the same situation - A1000 with HD and memory.
    Seemed like alot of money to just get the same level of functionality
    I have in my A1000 plus a few bells and whistles I didn't have an
    immediate need for.
    
    The Software Shop (Worcester, Mass.) wanted the A1000 keyboard, keyboard
    cable, and the A1000 serial number + upgrade price in the Commodore ads.
    
    I left with a 3 meg A2000HD and a CLtd keyboard (from store demo A1000)
    
    regards,
    dennis

    re .61:
    The system described in .62 came with a rev 6.2 motherboard, 1meg
    Agnus, 2091 with Quantum 40mb drive on the card, and a floppy drive
    that doesn't have a dust door, and clicks (just like the A1000 df0:).
    
    dennis
    

I just spoke to Steve at System Eyes and the offer is being extended until the 
end of April. I didn't think to ask if he was extending it or commodore was 
extending it.

System Eyes is asking for the keyboard, the 1000, the original documentation,
kickstart disk, workbench disk, mouse, cables,... in the original box.  No
deal at all for just a keyboard.

In turn, System Eyes is selling the above mentioned systems for 350$.  There
were 4-5 of them on the floor yesterday.

    
    Does the $350 A1000 come with an A1000 keyboard?
    
    -Dave

Re: .65

�   Does the $350 A1000 come with an A1000 keyboard?

    I *believe* so; They turn around and sell them instead of getting the
    rebate from Commodore. By rights, you could buy the 1000, turn in the
    keyboard to a dealer who'll accept such, and get the upgrade (probably
    not too cost effective).

Re: to anyone silly enough to listen to me

    I took Randy's suggestion and called around. But first I ruled out The
    Software Shop and The Memory Location (both in Massachusetts) only
    because they seemed farther away than I really want to travel (I'm in
    E.Derry, NH don't you know) and if I had any problems...

    I called C='s 1-800 number they had listed in the ad. They gave me the
    phone numbers for System Eyes, Omni Tech, and Video Lab as the
    authorized dealers in my area.
    
    I called System Eyes first (having dealt with them before):

    A2000HD (A2091/Quantum 40Mg/Fatter Agnus) = $1599.00 and *complete* A1000

    *But* Steve said he only had one A2000HD in stock. I said, "Well, what
    if I get there before Saturday and it's sold?"

    "I don't know; I'll have to call Commodore."

    "Oh. Okay, if I call you back later in the week, will you know?"

    "I don't know; I'll have to call Commodore."

    That was enlightening...

    Next I tried Video Lab (route 102 in Hudson, NH). They are an
    authorized dealer, but they sell mostly turn-key configurations to
    cable TV stations and the like. They get their stuff from System Eyes.
    No luck there, but I'd like to stop by just to play with their stuff!

    The Commodore operator gave me the number for Omni Tech in Salem, NH
    (now defunct) so I called the Tewskbury store and spoke with the owner,
    Dick Synder (sp?).

    A2000HD (A2091/Quantum 40Mg/Fatter Agnus) = $1499.00 and A1000 box/keyboard

    I asked him about the Salem store; tactfully trying to avoid 5% Mass
    Sales Tax. The tax would come to about $75 but he said he could ship to
    me in NH for about $20. Then he mentioned that he thought that the deal
    had been extended till the end of April. I asked him to confirm this;
    he shuffled some papers and said he'd have to call me back.

    While I waited, I called back C='s 1-800 number and grilled the poor
    operator for info on the April extension. She read me the sale ad
    practically word for word and then offered up C='s Customer Service
    Center phone number. I played the "all lines are busy" recording for
    about 15 minutes before giving up. I headed off to work, gloomily.

    Now mind you, what prompted this spurious dialing frenzy was not
    Randy's advise entirely (sorry Mr. Meyers ;^). For some reason, the
    Wife was egging me on to buy an A2000*HD* with money that we don't own!
    I figure she finally got tired of looking at the mass of cables, fans,
    and expansion box clashing with her living room. She asked if the
    equivalent mess would fit inside the A2000HD. I answered positively,
    before she could even finish speaking...

    Anyways, while at work, the old lady calls and said Omni Tech called
    back (surprise, surprise!). I called him back and he said that his C=
    rep had confirmed the extension. Then I asked him *exactly* what he
    required out of the A1000 and if it mattered if it's serial number had
    already been used in one of the past upgrades. He said that all he
    really had to send to C= for the rebate was the keyboard and the serial
    number of the system box and that it didn't matter about the serial
    number being used before; they weren't tracking them (at least one of
    my A1000's had been bought back from the dealer after being turned in
    for one of the past upgrade deals). I asked if I could just turn in the
    keyboard and keep the system box and he said O.K.!

    Well, to make a long story even longer and more pointless, I'll be
    heading down there tomorrow to see what kind of trouble I can cause.

    Stay tuned for part II: Petey takes his car, business, and chances out
    of state.

    Petey

    P.s. I didn't ask about the motherboard revs; since they had the
    A2091's in them, I'm assuming they're fairly new.

    P.p.s. (Oh gad, shut up already...) I hate to not support the "local"
    store (not really local, System Eyes is kinda 20-30 miles away), but
    being a cheapskate, I have to go where prices are lower and the service
    seems friendlier.

    As always, the viewpoints expressed above are entirely from my own
    twisted little mind and in no way shape or form reflect the opinions of
    my employer, except by co-inc-i-dink.

    
    I also did the upgrade through Omni Tech.  They are $100 under the
    advertised upgrade price and also gave me a reasonable trade-in value
    for a A1000 1 meg. memory exapnsion board.  Too bad there aren't
    in Salem N.H. anymore.  I used to frequent the store quite often
    since I only lived 5 miles away.
    
    Joe Giuffrida
    

I spoke to Moe at the Software Shop recently and he corrobated the extension
of the 1000 to 2000 trade in deal; until the end of April.

This is quite consistent with what Commodore has done in the past on trade-in
deals. I seem to recall them all being extended.

A dark note that could be implied by this is the much rumored mid-April 
announcements may be delayed. I hope not since with the Apple Mac Fx 
announcement it has been shown that time *is* money in this business!

	-SES

    
    strange... I thought CBM was trying to remove the A1000s from the
    market thru this program.  Looks like most of the dealers in the
    Boston and N.H. now have some sort of scheme where you get to keep
    your A1000.  And CBM is extending that program??
    
    Maybe CBM found out you can sell a lot of A2xxx systems at a time
    when sales should be dropping off due to the anticipation of new
    models.  Probably helps a bit with dealer loyalty too - that trade-in
    program gets people into the stores to spend at least $999.
    
    -Dave

When I talked to one of the Steves at System Eyes, I got the idea
that he was selling 1000 with 2000 keyboards.  He had the theory
that Commodore was trying to do away with the 1000, and that in
the future if a 1000 owner with a 2000 keyboard complained about
1000 support being dropped, Commodore would reply with, "Look,
you are running on a system that was turned in on an upgrade.
We did take care of the original 1000 owners.  We've met any
obligations we had."

I also remember being in the store when a big box arrived, and
he said, "Hey, that might be the 2000 keyboards I have on order!"

If someone is interested, they should check.

    re -1 that is a 2000 keyboard with cable adapter.
    							bill

    Well, I got a surprise letter from Commodore (UK) on Saturday. I forgot
    to bring it into work with me so the following is from memory...
    
    SPECIAL OFFER - UPGRADE YOUR A1000 or A500 TO AN A2000
                                          ^^^^
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Mr Thomson,
    	Due to popular demand etc. etc.
    
    	Just take your A1000 or A500 including power supply and mouse to
    your nearest dealer, to take advantage of this offer.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Well, I can't remember much more about the letter, but the upshot of
    the deal is you give them �1099 plus your A500/A1000 and recieve in
    return a A2000/U (Which is a A2000 plus a A2091 and 40 Meg hard drive)
    There are also a whole heap of peripherals at special prices too. The
    deal is only valid for the month of April.
    
    I'll bring the stuff in with me tomorrow and type in the prices.
    
    The interesting thing is that they're accepting A500s as tradeins....
    
    					Alan T.
    

  Gee;    I hope that doesn't mean that CBM will be dropping A500 support.


Chuck

re -1
>>  Gee;    I hope that doesn't mean that CBM will be dropping A500 support.

I heard talk about a mass marketed 500,and that it would be different from
the current model.(could explain why we are seeing sale prices on the 500)
The person told me that the guy from CBM was very careful not to devulge
any information beyound this.I had not heard anything about a 500 tradeup
however.What I heard could be labeled rumor but if someone recieves a mailer
then you cannot dismiss this. I don't think that CBM is in a posistion to 
drop support for the 500 taking into account there is ram,and HD already 
available for the system.However the student program,and the special 
applications promotions do center on the 2000,and they seem to be selling
quite well.
								bill

Re .72:  This sounds like a plan for Commodore (UK) to drum up more business.
	 they can use the parts from the old 500 for repair parts or let the
	 dealers sell used systems to allow cheap entry to the amiga market.

	 In any case a while ago commodore US had a trade up plan from almost
	 any CMBM machine to a 500/2000 depending on what you started with.

-----Robert

    Just an fyi for you new 2000 owners - The Memory Location is selling
    6' keyboard extender cables ($4.50+tax) that work fine for sitting in
    a lounger with the keyboard in your lap.  I used to be able to do
    this with an A1000 keyboard, but the A2000's keyboard cable was too
    short.  
    
    regards,
    dennis
    

My [t]rusty old A1000 got hit by lightning (sniff!) so I took it into Paragon
here in Colorado Springs for a repair esitmate.  While there, Pete (the owner)
said that I might consider the trade-up because of what he called "Version 2"
of the software.  According to Pete, Version 2 would be out "within 60 days"
and would not support the A1000 because V2 has a 512K Kickstart and there
was no way to cram it into the 256K Kickstar ram in the 1000.  According 
to Pete, the three options if one wanted "Version 2" were:
	- Trade-up to a 1 Meg 2000 (presumably, a 1 meg 500 would work too)
	- Instal one of the aftermarket boards that had the enhanced PALs and
                Kickstart in ROM.  Pete was not sure if this would be sufficient
                to support the Version 2 ROMS
	- Stay at 1.3 forever.

Pete's hypothesis was that, when A1000 owners complained that "Version 2" 
didn't run, Commodore would say, "But we GAVE you the chance to upgrade".

Has anyone else in AMIGA Netland heard of such a thing?

Thanks,
BobW

Re: .77

	1) The last I heard the next version of AmigaDOS is 1.4
	2) It looks like it is 512K.  It may not run on A1000's or it may
	   use non kickstart ram for some of the os. (I do not know what the
	   story is here.)
	3) You won't be able to use any of the new chipset based features
           without an aftermarket board in the A1000.  (Some of these boards
	   have been designed so they can take whatever ROM's the 500/2000
           can take.)
	4) Depending on how much the repair is and how much extra equipment
	   you have, you may be better off trading the machine in.  Commodore
	   only wants the keyboard.  They never said the machine has to work!

-----Robert

    
    The latest issue of AmigaWorld indeed mentioned that 1.4 (or 2.0) would
    grow to 512K.
    
    Any A1000 owners may want to pick up this issue, since there is a good
    article by Sheldon Leemon on whether or not you should retire your
    A1000.  Leemon indicated that 1.4 (or 2.0) would run on an A1000, but
    you'd loose an additional 256K of user memory to the kernal.  This
    would leave you with a completely useless 256K of chip ram.  Blecchhhh.
    
    Ed.

    re .79:
    And if you had more than 512K memory?  Say 2.5Mb?
    
    dennis
    

Warning: Dribble Zone Ahead. Next Useen now before it's too late!
    

    Now, for all you waiting on the edge of your seats;

    I've taken the plunge and now own an A2000HD. I ended up at OmniTek
    (apologies for the previous spellings) with A1000 keyboard in hand and
    serial number from the box. OmniTek sells Amiga's and clones, but while
    I was there, most of the activity was in the relatively small Amiga
    room. They don't have a huge software collection, but it's not bad
    either and the prices are something like 25-35% off the list. I opted
    to save the ~$55 difference in Ma$$ tax and had it shipped UPS
    ($1499.00 + $20.00 shipping). I wasn't too thrilled about having it
    shipped (all I could picture was my poor machine being tossed around by
    sleepy high school/college students) but luckily, everything seems to
    have arrived unscathed. Of course, I've already spent most of the
    "extra" cash ($45.00 for Quarterback).

    Just for the record, it's got an A2091, Quantum 40Mb, 1 Mb FANG, and a
    rev 6.2 motherboard. However, all of the documentation I got refers to
    the A2090/A2090a. The hard drive came with WB and Extras already
    installed in one 40Mb partition (the only one). Luckily, the A2091
    installation software is easy to follow, so re-partitioning was pretty
    painless.

    So far I'm very pleased, but I can't seem to fit this keyboard under
    the system box...

    Pete

    As always, the viewpoints expressed above are entirely from my own
    twisted little mind and in no way shape or form reflect the opinions of
    my employer, except by co-inc-i-dink.

RE: <<< Note 3429.81 by CRISTA::CAPRICCIO "Suffering from Bruin's Ulcer" >>>

>   However,   all   of   the  documentation  I  got  refers  to  the
>   A2090/A2090a.  The  hard  drive  came  with WB and Extras already
>   installed  in  one  40Mb  partition  (the only one). Luckily, the
>   A2091 installation software is easy to follow, so re-partitioning
>   was pretty painless.

You should be aware of the options jumpers on the 2091. It has two of
general significance. The jumper block I am refering to is (I seem
to recall) labeled J5. It is to the right and below the memory config
jumpers as you look at the component side of the card with the card
edge down. The top Jumper controls if the driver scans the SCSI bus
for LUNs greater than zero. The default (open) is no. The one below
disables parity checking for the SCSI bus (necessary for Adaptec and
some older SCSI devices). It also controls the SCSI timeout delay.
The default setting (open) has parity enabled and normal SCSI
timeouts. When closed Parity is Ignored and timeouts are about 2
seconds. Thus, with the second options jumper shorted scanning the
SCSI bus can take between 2 and three minutes.

	-SES

    Re: -.1

    Thanks for the info. I gave a call to Dick at OmniTek and he said if he
    could find an extra manual, he'd send it to me. I'm not sure why
    Commodore shipped it with the old docs; the box had all kinds of
    stickers and stuff on it denoting it had an A2091, etc. Anyone else end
    up with no A2091 manual? I'll try to get Commodore to send me one if I
    can get through on the CSC phone line.

    Thanks again,

    Pete

    Having recently populated my nephew's A2091, I can tell you that the
    RAM chips must be CMOS type, 256Kx4.  We got 16 of 'em (2MB) from the
    place in Oklahoma for about $165 last month.

    Re .84:
    
    FYI, the A590 takes the same 100/120ns CMOS 256Kx4 DRAM chips (a
    usually-reliable source tells me that 80ns is too fast).  If you're
    impatient, I've found them locally for about $14 each.

There is a great deal of similarity between the A590 and the A2091.

For instance, has anyone noticed the place on the 2091 PCB for a XT style
disk controller?? Hummmmm..... Wonder if only a few parts would be needed;
Naaaaaaaa, who'd want a XT disk in their A2000 anyway!

	-SES

    re .83:
    Same here.  The manual included with the A2091 was for a A2090A.
    It made for lots of interesting reading, especially since it was
    radically physically different from the board in front of me.
    Fortunately, the harddisk was formated with Workbench 1.3.2
    already installed.  The fun part was in trying to install the A2091
    into an A2000 (they were out of A2000HD systems) without any useful
    documentation.  Anybody know why there is a molex power connector on
    the A2091 board?  I had to connect directly to the drive 40Mb Quantum
    before it would spin up.  Also had to guess which way to plug the HD
    light cable on.  Is now up and running, but it was worth some crossed
    fingers as I applied power.
    
    Let us know what Commodore says, I'm interested in getting docs for
    my 2091 too.  For example, how to hook up a second SCSI drive.
    
    thanks,
    dennis

    Re: .84,.85

    Thanks. Regarding the "80nS too fast"; I wouldn't think this would be a
    factor. If you were trying to use ones rated for, say, 150nS and the
    spec is 120nS, then you'd be taking a chance. I think as long as the
    DRAM's cough up their data (and it's stable) within the valid address
    "window", you're okay (besides, faster is always betta', right? ;^)
    Anyone want to "trade" 2 Mb worth of 256Kx4's for the equivelant in
    1024Kx1's. I bought them for $144.00 (Another Tom Senna cheapskater's
    special).

    Re: .87

    Sorry you're in the same stew, but I'm glad to hear I'm not alone.
    Being the incredibly patient person I are, I went back to OmniTek to
    bug Dick about it. He offered me a photocopy and I accepted knowing
    well that it is copyrighted, but heck, I *paid* for the thing and it
    should have come with the system. I'm still going to call C= and get
    the "official" document, and hopefully an explanation why it wasn't
    there in the first place.

    �                Anybody know why there is a molex power connector on
    � the A2091 board?  I had to connect directly to the drive 40Mb Quantum
    � before it would spin up.  Also had to guess which way to plug the HD

    I haven't read through the whole thing yet, but I think the power
    connector is there so you don't have to run a long cable when you mount
    the drive on the A2091 card itself. I think it draws power right from
    the 100 pin connectors when connected this way. Mine came mounted in
    the left-most 3�" drive bay. If you're interested, I'll send you a copy
    until C= comes through. Can I be arrested for such behaviour? Am I
    becoming a pirate?

    Pete

    I use 80nS chips (2MB) in my A590 and it works ok. It's really another
    life with an A500/A590 with a total of 3MB. In the future I'll try
    maybe to upgrade with an accelerator but there is no emergency. For the
    memory it was, as now I can use normally Cambridge Lisp and SBProlog. I
    use also 200 buffers for the HD and plenty of resident commands, so the
    HD is less used. I will not trade my A500 for an A2000 because I can
    only loose at this moment. When some A3000 will be there maybe I'll
    think again.
    
    Sorin

    re .88:
    
    Yes, I'm very interested.  thanks, I'll send you mail.
    
    The Quantum drive is mounted on the 2091 card.  It doesn't spin up with
    power coming from either the pins or when I plug the cable from the
    power supply to the connecter labelled 'drive power' on the 2091.
    Only by bending some compacitors out of the way was I able to plug it
    into the power connector on the drive itself and then the drive spins
    up and autoboots.  I was just puzzled why they would go thru the
    trouble of putting an unused power connector on the 2091.
    
    My 2000HD was a 2000 and a 2091 with 40mb HD in a seperate cardboard box
    clearly labelled as a 2091. (they were sold out of 2000HD)
    
    thanks,
    dennis   

    re .90:

>   I  was just puzzled why they would go thru the trouble of putting
>   an unused power connector on the 2091.

    The  connector  on  the  2091  is intended to supply power TO the
drive plug you had to bend the capacitors out of the way to get at...
So if you have a bunch of cards, maybe 2  2091  hard  cards,  getting
power  to  the  drive  is  simple  -  a  small  cable  (not  included
apparently)  that  goes  from  the connector on the 2091 to the drive
power connector.

	-SES

    There really is that kind of power available from the card slots?
    Amazing.  Is this a A2091 'unique' cable or is this sort of thing
    available from other sources?
    
    thanks,
    dennis
    

Re: .92

>    There really is that kind of power available from the card slots?

Yes and no.  One of the good reasons to have a A2091 manual is that
it contains a warning not to exceed some power limit if you
power the hard disk directly from the card.

Since hard drives almost always come without any documentation (you
have to find out the phone number of the manufacturer and call them
if you want specs!), knowing the electrical requirements of your
drive can be tricky.

When Commodore sells a A2091 as part of a 2000HD, they mount the
drive in a floppy bay and power the drive off of the drive power
supply cables.  I wonder if it is because they know something
we don't, or if it is because it is easier for them to install
that way, or if the drive is safer in shipping in the floppy bay.

Personally, I put my drive in the floppy bay not because I was
worried about power, but because drives are heavy, and disk
controller boards look flimsy.  Or at least my old Pacific
Peripherals controller card looked flimsy.  The A2091 seems
more durable.  If you get the A2091 as part of a 2000HD so that
it has the optional reinforcement bar and foam pad, it might
even be more secure than a floppy bay!

RE:.93

>   Since hard drives almost always come without any documentation...

    Well,  I  pretty much agree with this. A pretty poor practice, if
you ask me! But, most all the drives I have come across DO have their
power requirements printed on the drives. It may not be very detailed
and only listed as a total watts figure, but it  has  been  there  on
every  drive  I  can  recall coming across. As for other information,
well I agree completely.
���
	-SES

>>    There really is that kind of power available from the card slots?

>Yes and no.  One of the good reasons to have a A2091 manual is that
>it contains a warning not to exceed some power limit if you
>power the hard disk directly from the card.

    Quite correct (as usual). In fact, you may have multiple A2091's
    installed, but only one card-mounted 3.5" drive, lest you may kiss
    your warranty good-bye. For those of us that get off on this
    stuff, the spec is:

           +5V @ 1A, +12V @ 1A continuous, 2A maximum startup.

>When Commodore sells a A2091 as part of a 2000HD, they mount the
>drive in a floppy bay and power the drive off of the drive power
>supply cables.  I wonder if it is because they know something
>we don't, or if it is because it is easier for them to install
>that way, or if the drive is safer in shipping in the floppy bay.

    The manual instructs you to use the shock mounts when mounting the
    drive in a drive bay, but *not* to use them when mounting it on
    the card frame; using instead the screws and nuts on the card.
    What gives? One thing I've always wondered: is the drive
    orientation a factor in the life of the drive? It would seem to me
    that having the drive mounted horizontally (with respect to the
    platters) would be the more desirable position. My brain (small as
    it may be) says that gravity would be distibuted evenly across the
    platters, versus mounting it vertically on a card (the analogy of
    the "straight" piston engine vs. the pancake variety). Also,
    wouldn't any lubricant tend to settle towards the lowest point
    when the drive is spun down? It's nothing to get worked up over,
    but I was just curious, since it seems nowadays more and more
    drives are mounted vertically (ie RF's in BA21n boxes).

>more durable.  If you get the A2091 as part of a 2000HD so that
>it has the optional reinforcement bar and foam pad, it might
>even be more secure than a floppy bay!

    What I can't figure is (glancing at the pseudo-docs) is if you buy
    an A2091, you get a short power cable and short 50 pin SCSI cable,
    which implies you would have to mount your drive on the card,
    unless you supply a longer SCSI cable at minimum (power cable is
    there, as long as you don't have additional floppies). But if you
    buy the A2091-40 (controller + 40Mb drive), you get the long SCSI
    cable, reinforcement bar, foam pad and mounting hardware (where
    the mounting hardware {threaded shock mounts w/nuts and washers,
    or as they say in the mid-west, warshers} is specific to mounting
    the drive in a drive bay, not on the card). Mine's mounted in a
    drive bay *and* has the bar and pad. Go figure!

    Pete (not whining again, am I?)

    Sounds like I should leave the A2091 hardcard as is.  Drive orientation
    doesn't seem to matter to the PC drives in at work and its less risk
    powering the drive directly from the power supply.  
    
    I just used up the second 3.5" bay installing a second floppy drive
    I picked up at the last computer flea market.
    
    Thanks for all the advice.
    
    regards,
    dennis
    

    Re: - the mysterious missing A2091 manuals;

    I (well actually, my wife�) finally got through to Commodore. Here's
    the scoop, they ran out of A2091 manuals, so they sent the old ones
    instead (ya, right). To get an "official" copy, send a photocopy of
    your A2000HD or A2091(-40) receipt along with a note specifying that
    you didn't receive an A2091 manual, and return address, to:

                         Commodore Business Machines
                                   Dept. C
                              1200 Wilson Drive
                            West Chester, PA 19380

    They stressed to make sure Department C is included in the address, or
    somewhere on the envelope (ie/ Attn: Dept. C). Is there anyone else out
    there, besides me an' Dennis, who got stiffed?

    Pete

    Well, last week I finally decided to write to CBM to claim my missing
    manual and *they* arrived yesterday. Along with the A2091(-40) manual
    was the updated "Introduction to the A2000HD" manual. Now that's what I
    call service! Although it's been updated, the A2000HD manual still has
    a lot of old screen shots in it and most of the stuff is duplicated in
    the A2091 manual. Even though getting through to the service department
    (and trying to explain your situation) at CBM has been frustrating at
    times, they have more than made up for it with responsiveness and lack
    of red tape. Good job CBM service!

    Pete