Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    See note 2951.* for Word Processing comparisons.
    
>      I finally made it to the Memory Location to cop a Prowrite package
>   for myself and they were out. (note! this is better than an hours ride
>   for me.)    
    
    Haven't you seen those crummy "We're the one for you New England"
    telephone ads?  Call first.
    
    ~Steve

    
   > The salesman at M.L. mentioned two surprising limitations I wasn't
   > aware of with Prowrite;  only prints 8 colors,  ( I don't have a color
   > printer anyway ),,, and you can't put your imported graphic picture
   > any where on the page, something ab
    
    Absolutely untrue.  ProWrite allows you to resize and place any IFF
    graphic anywhere on the page and flow text around it.  ProWrite also
    imports HAM images without any problems.
    
    ProWrite uses it's own internal dithering algorithm to reduce a 4096
    color image down to 8 colors.  Perhaps the salesman meant that ProWrite
    itself resides on an 8 color screen rather than a 16 color screen?
    
    ProWrite is also guaranteed to be 100% bug free.  If it doesn't live up
    to your expectaions, the publisher will refund your money within 30
    days.  
    
    My wife is using ProWrite professionally to prepare legal documents and
    it has been absolutely rock solid.  She used a Wang Office Automation
    system for many years, and she is so spoiled by our Amiga and it's
    instantaneous response that she will probably never be able to go back
    to a simple terminal based WP that she could easily out-type.
    
    Ed.
    

      Re: .0

>      I'm not sure what all "PRINT SHOP"  for the Apple does, but it
>   sure does get a lot of lip service from the elementary school kids.
>   It's hard to imagine anybody that hasn't seen or been the recipient
>   of a card generated by this program.
>
>   Does the Amiga have a counterpart?  I'd love to be able to design
>   some High res cards in DPaint, and print up real cards. (the kids
>   would too!!!)

    John,

    Check out Deluxe Print II from EA. There's a review of it in this month's
    (Jan/Feb 90) Info magazine. It does cards, calendars, posters, banners (not
    the best), letterheads and business cards. My daughters' only complaint 
    is that we don't have a color printer. My response was to hand them their 
    box of Crayolas :-). Don't know how it compares to Print Shop, though the
    review seemed to indicate that the DPII interface was only slightly more
    complicated to use. 
							    -Dom

    Thre is a ProWrite v PenPal review in this month's Amiga World.
    Can't remember the conclusion.
    
    I have ProWrite and like it reasonably well. My wife is always annoyed
    by having to use a medium res version of the prog. (you get a high
    res version that works on interlace screens and a medium res version
    for non-interlace but rather large fonts and only half the no. the
    lines on a page. Personally I can'y use interlace screens EVER,
    whatever the colour combinations.  But maybe PenPal does the same,
    I don't know?
    
    Colin
    

    The word I got from System Eyes is,"We like,and use PenPal,but
    recommend ProWrite to those limited too a meg of Memory". They have
    found that you cannot do large documents with PenPal on a one meg
    machine. They do no even atempt to sell PenPal to 500 owners.(note
    that they could sell many of these packages,because PenPal demos
    well)
    BTW I do not use PenPal,or Prowrite.
    								bill

    Pro Write is supposed to print the pictures in graphic mode, and the
    text using the fonts from the printer, the result is faster printing
    and better looking text output.  I am thinking of buying Pro Write, but
    I wonder if anyone with a DEC printer (LA50, LA100, LA75 {not in HAL
    mode}) has ever tried it to see if it prints ok.
    
    Jean
    

    Re .0:
    
>     I'm not sure what all "PRINT SHOP"  for the Apple does, but it
>   sure does get a lot of lip service from the elementary school kids.
>   It's hard to imagine anybody that hasn't seen or been the recipient
>   of a card generated by this program.
>
>   Does the Amiga have a counterpart?  I'd love to be able to design
>   some High res cards in DPaint, and print up real cards. (the kids
>   would too!!!)
    
    I have Print Shop (and Print Master) on my C=128.  I believe an Amiga
    version exists of one or the other, and the Memory Location seems to
    carry yet another product that does the same thing.
    
    All these products offer a simple means of generating posters and
    greeting cards consisting of a graphic overlaid by a few lines of large
    text.  For posters, any decent paint program can run circles around the
    all of these programs.  For greeting cards, the magic ingredient is the
    ability to rotate 1/4 of the page 180� so it will be right side up when
    the card is folded.

>   Also I'm looking for a comparison between Pen Pal and Prowrite.
    
    (I ran into John while he was there.)  Info magazine prefers Pen Pal,
    but also gave solid marks to Excellence! and ProWrite.  I have (and am
    quite satisfied with) ProWrite.  I'd like to play with Pen Pal, if only
    so I can make better-educated comments at times like this.
    
    As mentioned earler, these two products were recently reviewed in Amiga
    World and the conclusion was that users will prefer one over the other
    based upon their own needs (there's a surprise! 8^).  Pen Pal is
    reputed to require a LOT of memory, so if you don't have 1MB, don't
    bother.  (As it is, ProWrite doesn't leave me huge amounts of spare
    memory either -- I can't start anything useful while editing a
    document.  I'm already planning an expansion beyond 1MB when I can get
    my hands on CMOS chips at a reasonable price.)
    
    The jump to ProWrite 2.5 from my C=128 word processor (Pocket Writer 2)
    was effortless for my sons, aged 16 & 13.  They've taken advantage of
    fonts, highlighting (bolding/underlining/italics), justification, and
    both modes (continuous or all-at-once) of the spelling checker.  John's
    kids are still young, so the issue for now is what he and his wife need.

    I have Write 'n File, the ancestor of PenPal.  WnF requires a lot
    of memory, so the assumption is that PP does too.  WnF gets the job
    done and the primary difference seems to be PP's ability to import
    pictures.  Both have the database capability and I find it VERY useful. 
    The extra memory would required for any size database as well.  If the
    offer for an upgrade still stands, I am going to take them up on it.  I
    brought an LJ250 from the office and it works well on the colors.
    
    WnF will manage 5 to 8 pages of ordinary text in 1 Meg (512K fast, 512K
    chip).  I haven't tested it since adding the 2nd Meg.

Pen Pal is an interesting WP. I like its screen display and the command
input a lot. It is obviously Intuition-based, which means its behavior is
very predictable, and common with good Amiga programs. Some interesting
points:

o Changes the mouse pointer to indicate the function the mouse will do,
for instance, if you're on the horizontal ruler, the pointer will say
"SET TAB", etc. So you're never guessing what the gadget you're pointing
at means, and the gadgets can be small.

o Has a complete graphics menu, can draw vert. and horiz. lines, boxes,
and "filled" boxes, in various line widths. Choice of 8 colors. Loads,
sizes, moves, crops etc. IFF pictures. Flows or columns print around pics.

o Has nice, intuitive vertical and horizontal scrolling. You can set display
to be any size within screen. Has option to show image of full page- the
type is too small to read, but it gives an idea of graphics layout.

o Has a nice spreadsheet-style database. Can add fields to existing database.
Does field "typing" (e.g. date, number, yes/no) to reduce error. Sorts and
selects on any field(s). Can do totals and subtotals. Can produce reports,
or use database for "mail merge" data. Can produce subset databases from
a database, save to disk.

o Spelling check is fairly fast, not astounding, and a little clumsy to use.
But not awful. No thesaurus. Has a document interpreter which counts words,
sentences, paragraphs. Gives "reading level", indicator of reading difficulty.

o Prints using printer's fonts or graphics. Uses any font in your FONTS:
directory on screen, though only TOPAZ will xfer to printer's font. Can set
up to 6 density levels (depending on printer, not all work) of printing, and
print "draft" or "finished". Prints any font in graphics mode, any choice of
color. Print quality is good, but not outstanding on 9-pin matrix printer.

o Manual is VERY good. Free disk (of database designs) if you register. May
send free upgrades, apparently have good support reputation. I had no great
difficulty moving it to hard disk.

BUGS: crashes system if you load a "bad" font. "Sunmouse" feature of MACHII
interferes with graphics menu. Window refresh sometimes hangs if the printer
has a problem during printing. Window refresh is sometimes slow. Graphics
functions can be slow.

Ref: Note 3341.2 LEDS::ACCIARDI

 >  Absolutely untrue.  ProWrite allows you to resize and place any IFF
 >  graphic anywhere on the page and flow text around it.  ProWrite also
                                     ****
                                     
                                        and
                                        
Ref: Note 3341.9 MKODEV::OSBORNE "Blade Walker"

 > and "filled" boxes, in various line widths. Choice of 8 colors. Loads,
 > sizes, moves, crops etc. IFF pictures. Flows or columns print around pics.
                                          *****  
                                            

   What is the definition of "flow"?
       
   My understanding - or more appropriately what I would like it to be - is
   that if I had a small 'graphic' in the centre of my page, that as I
   typed text into the document, it would adjust itself around it's outer
   edges, as is illustrated in the following:
       
       
       Now is the time for all good men to go to the aid of their
       country.  Now is the time for all good men to go to the aid of
       their country.  Now is the time for all good men to go to the aid
       of their country.  +-----------------------+ Now is the time for
       all good men to go |                       | to the aid of their
       country.  Now is   |                       | the time for all good
       men to go to the   |        GRAPHIC        | aid of their country.
       Now is the time for|                       | all good men to go to
       the aid of their   +-----------------------+ country.  Now is the
       time for all good men to go to the aid of their country.  Now is
       the time for all good men to go to the aid of their country.  Now
       is the time for all good men to go to the aid of their country.
       Now is the time for all good men to go to the aid of their
       country.  

         
   In using ProWrite 2.5 (just got it last night), what actually happens is
   that the graphic and text are superimposed on each other, as illustrated
   here:
       
       Now is the time for all good men to go to the aid of their
       country.  Now is the time for all good men to go to the aid of
       their country.  Now is the time for all good men to go to the aid
       of their country.  +-----------------------+ood men to go to the
       aid of their countr|.  Now is the time for |ll good men to go to
       the aid of their co|ntry.  Now is the time |or all good men to go
       to the aid of their|country.  Now is the ti|e for all good men to
       go to the aid of th|ir country.  Now is the|time for all good men
       to go to the aid of+-----------------------+he time for all good
       men to go to the aid of their country.  Now is the time for all
       good men to go to the aid of their country.  
       
   
   Is my interpretation of "flow" wrong, or is there a feature of ProWrite
   2.5 that I am not fully understanding and/or exploiting.
   
   Thanks
   
   Art
   

    Re .10:
    
    Dave Busch complained about a similar problem.  I think he solved it by
    defining a background color (which could be white) for the graphic. 
    ProWrite wants to treat the background as TRANSPARENT, which would
    result in what you saw.  Depending on how you look at it, this could be
    considered to be either a FEATURE (allowing ProWrite to flow text around
    irregularly-shaped objects) or a BUG (requiring additional work to make
    the graphic usable).

"Flow" means that text is moved as close to the "object" of the graphic
as possible, resulting in an irregular left or right margin, depending
on which is adjacent to the graphic. For this to work properly, the
included graphic must have a "background" the same color as the "paper"
(in PenPal- I don't know what ProWrite does). Usually used for a simple
(1 object) graphic, like the little pictures in dictionaries.

PenPal will only put text on one side of a graphic, as far as I can tell.
This is a FEATURE, because "split" lines of text are always harder to read
than continuous lines. PenPal doesn't try to write little bits of text in
every "background" space of the graphic- the text lines are contiguous.

    
    When I import a graphic (say, from DPaint), I make sure that the
    background color of the graphic is the same as the background color of
    the ProWrite screen.  I can then snuggle the text up to an irregular
    brush if I care to.
    
    XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX  ***** XXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXX
    XXXXXXXXXX XXXXXX xXXX  *********  XXXXX XXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX  XXXXX
    XXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXX  ***  XXXXX   XXXXX  XXXXXX XXXXXX
     
    and so on...
    
    As Bill mentioned, this is a bit rough on the eyeballs, but I consider
    it a feature to have the capability.
    
    Ed.

    I'm planning to invest in a new Word Processor this Christmas.  It will
    be primarily used by my wife who is a lecturer; she uses it to prepare
    lessons, schemes of work, handouts etc.  I will also be using it and
    hope that the children (aged 8, 10, and 11) will become familiar with
    it over the next few years.
    
    Having read all the reviews that I can find and this conference I have
    come down to the following ranking of WP software for my needs.
    
                   1   Pan Pal
                   2   ProWrite
                   3   Word Perfect
    
    My requirements are as follows (i) Robust software (bug free).  (ii)
    Fast  (iii) Spell Checker  (iv) Powerful graphics import  (v) excellent
    general functionality.
    
    Here are some of the plus and minus points:
    
    Pen Pal.
    
    +	Most user friendly.
    +	Integral Database. (Is this integrated? .. If not it's no use as I
    	already have Superbase Pro.
    +	Good functionality.
    
    ProWrite.
    
    +	Multi-column.
    +	Thesaurus.
    +	Good functionality.
    
    Word Perfect.
    
    +	Postscript output (?)
    +	Compatible with PCs etc.
    ++	Possibility of document conversion to WPSplus for work???
    -	Expensive
    -	Not user friendly by Amiga standards.
    -	Future of Word Perfect on Amiga in doubt.
    
    "Why is he telling us all this?" you are probably asking; if you have
    bothered to read this far that is.  Well, the quantity and quality of
    information available is pathetic.  Any reviews that I have read are
    superficial, and I don't have any opportunity to try out the products. 
    The info above may be incorrect, or there may be things that I have not
    considered.  Please give me your views on which you feel may be the
    best software for my needs.
    
    Also:  I was also planning to get Professional Page.  Will there be any
    compatibility problems with any of the WP software?
    
    Currently I use Kindwords, PageSetter (and LaserScript); this allows be
    to generate PostScript output, take it into the office and print it on
    an LPS20.  Will I be able to do this with any of these WPs and with
    ProPage?
    
    I welcome any further thoughts on the relative merits of Pen Pal and
    ProWrite.  I'm sure many of the noters in this conference will benefit
    from as much discussion / views on this as possible as it is an area
    where it is difficult to make a choice if you can't use each of the
    products for about a week.
    
    Peter

A few thoughts:

Recent magazine reviews of Excellence V2 seem to say it should be in the
running with Pen Pal, ProWrite & Word Perfect. 

 As best as I can read between the lines of the reviews, ProWrite
is the fastest of the Wysiwyg programs. You can also output to Postscript
with an optional package. This has been discussed in this conference.

Word Perfect was and maybe still is available to DEC employees at a 
discount. This too has been explained in some old note. Time for some
directory /title="word" etc.

Dave

    
     Re .14
    
    >>  (iv) Powerful graphics import 
    
     If it helps narrow your decision any...  Word Perfect has no provision
    for Graphics import. ( or mixing Graphics/text ).  Unless 5.whatever
    comes out.
                                           
    brien
    
    

    re -.1 & -.2
    
    Thanks, this is helpful.
    
    Word Perfect is eliminated ... no graphics.
    
    Prowrite is lookin' good with the facility for PostScript output ... is
    this not possible with Pen Pal?
    
    Any votes for Pen Pal .. what about the database facility, is it
    integrated in any way?
    
    Regards
    Peter

    I can't tell you about Pen Pal, but I own its predecessor,
    Write'n'File.  From what I've read, A lot of the characteristics have
    been propogated onto Pen Pal.  
    
    Write'n'File is slow and prone to crashes.  I suspect (from what I
    seen) that Pen Pal will also elicit visits from Mr. Guru and no faster. 
    W&F does not support anything resembling Postscript.  It prints in
    either of two modes, mapping text out to the printer in a bitmap format
    or plain text to a printer, allowing the printer to perform its own
    mapping.  WHICH MEANS: you have no control over the print compression
    (W&F always has 10 characters per inch) or everything gets printed in
    one font.
    
    I plan to buy ProWrite as soon as I can afford it.  I will also try
    some other database mechanism as well.  This database mechanism (which
    hasn't changed significantly from W&F) is a fairly simple flat file
    arrangement with little ability to do real database work.  It can sort
    and do mail merge, but the selection of data records is rather arcane
    and I've had virtually no use for it.  DATATRIEVE is better!

    
    I can pretty much say that ProWrite is absolutely bug free.  I can say
    this because my computer-illiterate wife has been hammering away at it
    for four hours per day for almost a year and has never had a single
    problem.  She has been using almost all of ProWrite's features, and the
    program has never missed a beat.
    
    Ed.

    I'll put in another vote for ProWrite (particularly V3.*).  It's
    guaranteed bug-free by its developers, and I like that.  It IS fast --
    I've yet to out-type it on a text-only document.  V3.0 made significant
    improvements to the user interface that should make it the equal of any
    of its competitors.
    
    ProWrite seems to be able to import almost ANY kind of graphic element
    you might throw at it.  You can also re-size and reposition the picture
    after it's been imported.
    
    I have ProScript (the add-on package to produce PostScript output) and
    routinely upload files for printing at work.  I should warn you that
    ProScript V1.0 doesn't know about the enhancements that occurred after
    ProWrite V2.5 (most notably multi-column support), but I'm hopeful a
    newer version will be available in the near future to close this gap.
    
    I'm also a recent PageStream V2.0 user.  One of the nicer discoveries
    is that PageStream understands ProWrite files when it imports them, so
    you can retain many (though not all) of the text style features in the
    process.  With Professional Page, et al, you must write a simple ASCII
    file (in ProWrite, this means selecting "Text Only" when saving the
    document) and then finesse the text in the DTP program after import.
    
    For my family's use, ProWrite is nearly perfect.  It's quite intuitive
    (no pun intended 8^), so the learning curves of my various family
    members have been short.  It's also nearly bullet-proof.  ProWrite is
    capable of doing ALMOST everything they might want to do under normal
    circumstances (automatic footnotes being the major exception) and MANY
    things that only a wierdo like myself would want to do.  It's versatile
    to the point where you can use ProWrite in lieu of a "sideways" program
    for production of landscape mode output.
    
    ProWrite isn't perfect, though.  One thing I'd really like (that's
    present in Pen Pal, for instance) is simple line/box drawing and
    shading.  ProScript needs to support the full range of ProWrite
    capabilities and should add a smoothing algorithm analogous to that
    provided for hardcopy output.  Better yet, support of outline fonts
    (by both) would be a boon!

    I have and use Pen Pal.  I haven't explored all its attributes yet, but
    it works great with most any IFF graphic.  I've imported HAM, Hi-Res,
    LO-REs, shrunk and expanded them, placed borders and wrapped text
    around them with no problem.  Its spell-checking facility is rather
    cumbersome to use(doesn't check on the fly) but works.  I've only used
    its database facility for making floppy labels (using Mail Merge) and 
    keeping track of my CD/TAPE/LP collection, it is adequate for my needs.
    I've used its Forms manager to create business and personal forms and
    they work as advertised.  It has never caused a GURU during operation
    and it allows you to choose how much available memory it will consume
    when it is in use.
    I bought Pen Pal before Prowrite 3.0 was released.  Softwood, the
    makers of Pen Pal, just sent me an upgraded version and I didn't have
    to ask.  I like that.  I like Prowrite's ability to use multiple
    columns and its thesaurus.  Pen Pal's graphics creation and
    handling capability, forms manager, and simple database meets my word
    processing needs.  Now that Prowrite 3.0 is released and I have read
    about its capabilities, Pen Pal would still be my word processing
    choice.  
    
    md
    
    
    
    md

    
      Re: -1 
    
                  Ditto on all counts. I like Pen Pal as much now as I did
        when I first got it 8 months ago. I too got a free update but that
        was 6 months ago I believe it was for V1.3-2 ( really just a
        guess ).  I've never even seen ProWrite so I can't say how they
        compare, but I like the way Pen Pal does things, and the way it
        displays an explanation of each icon as you locate the mouse over
        it. (you always know what's about to happen before your do it.)
        That's great for wife and kids.
                   
                  I wish Pen Pal did multi column.  (rumer follows) I was
        told by a salesman at The Memory Location that Pen Pal will have
        Multi column by it's next major update.  ( end of rumer )
                   
                  I'm not sure if it does side-ways printing. (don't 
        think so though.)
    
                                     *** May God Bless ***
                                         John Chicoine