Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Re: .0 
    
>        And while I'm on the subject, if anyone has any experience
>    	with any educational software I'd appreciate comments.  As
>    	a (soon to be) Amiga family my better half has made it very
>    	clear that our 8 and 11 year olds will not spend ALL of their
>    	computer time playing games.  So any information in this area
>    	will be helpful. I'd be especially interested in any info on
>    	Logo.  The kids use this in school now (on Apples) and seem to
>    	enjoy it.
    
    Mike,

    As an also soon-to-be Amiga family, I made a call to Commodore a week
    or so ago in response to an educational ad they ran in the October 89
    issue of Commodore Magazine (final issue of Commodore Mag). The ad
    spoke about the "Amiga Achievers" & how "the Amiga is versatile enough to
    fit into virtually any curriculum". I called the 800 number 
    (1-800-627-9595 x500) and am waiting for a packet of info to arrive
    re: the 1200 published educational programs available for the Amiga.
    The woman who answered the phone kept asking what school I represented.
    I told her I didn't represent any school, I was just a parent interested
    in educational s/w for the Amiga. She said they don't normally send the
    info to parents, only to school systems, but I politely managed to 
    (hopefully) get her to send me the info. It hasn't arrived yet, but when
    it does, I'll post some info in this note for those who are interested.

						    -Dom

    
    Mike,
    
    I can send you the August addition.  I'll put it in the mail Wednesday
    morning (coming from Marlboro).
    
    Frank
    
    

    Re: Logo

    From the September Transactor for the Amiga, page 79 (quoted without
    permission):

    "Commodore Business Machines, Inc. announced the launch of a new
    educational package for the Amiga - AMIGA LOGO.  It has many
    operational features that distinguish it from other LOGOs.  Some of the
    features include pull-down menus and the use of the mouse for free-hand
    drawing, as well as support for the Amiga's extensive graphics
    capabilities.  The Amiga's built-in speech capabilities allow for help
    screens that recite the instructions to the pupils.

    "AMIGA LOGO was developed by Carl Sassenrath, one of the original
    designers of Amiga's multi-tasking operating system.  AMIGA LOGO runs
    on all Commodore Amiga computers with a minimum of 512K memory and a
    single disk drive.  AMIGA LOGO will be available in July.  Contact:
    Higgins Public Relations, 338 Newbury St., Boston MA, 02115, USA.

    It is hard to tell from this whether availability is July 89 or July
    90, but I would guess 89.

	Paul

    
    re: .2 
    
    	Frank, thanks for the help.  I'll photo coy what I need and get it
    	back to you as quickly as I can.
    
    re: .3
    
    	Any idea on what the Logo package will cost?
    
    
    								Mike

    Re: .4 
    
>    	Any idea on what the Logo package will cost?
    
    Memory Location had it on their shelf for $85. BTW, December AmigaWorld
    list ~5 pages of educational s/w titles.
						    -Dom

         Does that price include a multi-user license? ;^)
         If you can live without all that nice stuff that said
         package offers, and a not-so-perfect implementation of
         LOGO, there's a nice ShareWare version available. It's
         written in assembly language, includes a limited editor,
         and some sample programs. An excerpt of the DOC's follow.

         Petey

    ALOGO - � 1986 by Gerald Owens

    Permission is given for free, non-commercial distribution.
This software is TRUE shareware:  If you have contributed something
to the public domain, then you can keep it for free!  Otherwise, it is
requested that you send a tax deductible donation of $5.00 to:

               Wycliffe Associates
               Box 2000
               Orange, Ca.   92669-9984


    Specify that the money is to go for literacy training in less
developed countries, and tell them that "S" sent you.  Be sure to tell
them not to send further information if you don't want it.
Please direct all bug reports and suggestions for improvements to:

               Gerald Owens                   Gerald Owens
               C/O William Richardson         C/O Amiga Atlanta
               1599 Council Bluff Dr.         Box 7724
               Atlanta, Ga.  30345            Atlanta, Ga.  30357


LIMITATIONS

     This is just the graphics portions of LOGO.  I have tried to
follow the Apple II LOGO commands as closely as possible, with the
exception of file, editor, and printer related commands.  Any good
book on LOGO should be of help.


PROBLEM AREAS

     A single window is used for the editor, command, and graphics
window.  Wierd things happen to the "turtle" when things get scrolled.

     Do not panic!  Repeat, do NOT panic if after successfully executing
a procedure, you re-edit the buffer and find a blank screen!  The
editor is fixed to place the cursor in front of the NEXT statement
to be executed.  If there is an error, the cursor will be in front
of the offending statement.  When a procedure returns, the cursor
is temporarily placed after the END or the OUTPUT statement, so if
the last procedure executed was the last procedure in the editor
buffer, the cursor will be placed after the END statement, and so
may appear alone on a blank screen.  Just press SHIFT-UP ARROW to
get to your code.

     The editor is not very good.  I hope that if a later version comes
out, it will be worthy of alternate use as a programmer's editor.

     The program polls the window message port constantly for a keypress
while it executes, so that it can stop at a keypress.  Unfortunately,
this takes up so much CPU time that it is virtually unable to be
multi-processed.  My apologies.  I'm sure there's a work-around, but
the Amiga is such a complicated machine that it will probably take a
while for me to get sophisticated enough to implement it in assembler.

     There are no global variables.  All procedure variables are
sort of local/global.  They're global in the sense that they are
accessible outside of the procedure, and local in the sense that
when a procedure is entered, the old value is saved, and when the
procedure is exited, the old value is restored.  Every unique variable
name is placed in a table and all accesses refer to that central
copy, so the scope can be classified as being dynamic.  If you want
global variables, declare a dummy procedure with "local" variables
having the names of the desired global variables.

     Procedures and variables are declared using the editor.  They
cannot be declared from the command processor.  When declaring a
procedure, the header (TO <name> <vars>) MUST START on separate lines.


HOW TO RUN
     ALOGO cannot be executed from the Workbench.  Rather, get into the
CLI and type in:

logo
.
.
.

FINAL NOTES

     ALOGO V1.0 is written entirely in assembly language, which
accounts partly for its speed and partly for its rough edges, since
most of the programming examples provided by Commodore are oriented
towards "C".  The headers of the procedures are partly compiled into
a table for quick lookup, and are tied directly to the source code
in the editor.  Changing a line in the editor forces this table to
be recompiled.  I could have compiled all the procedures in the
editor buffer in their entirety, but there would have been no direct
connection between errors in the compiled code and where the error
was located in the source.  Thus, in a child-oriented language, I opted
for making the location of errors easy to do.

    Re: getting ed. s/w info from Commodore

	I wound up having to call my daughters' elementary school principal
    & have him call Commodore for me, as my package never arrived (he was
    interested in looking into placing Amigas in their school anyway, since
    the price of IIgs's is pretty high & he wasn't thrilled about adding any
    more IIe's.). I figure C= didn't send it to me since it contains a 
    videotape ("Creativity in the Classroom") and pricing material that they 
    only want to send to schools. The package of educational material consists 
    of photocopies of an Amazing Computing article (AC's Guide to the Amiga)
    on educational s/w. The letter from Commodore does state that C= is 
    "putting together a new education program that will let you access our
    technology at unbelievable prices. You will receive more information
    about this soon".

	So far, I've picked up 4 educational s/w programs for my kids. I'm
    fairly impressed with the quality, and even more impressed that my
    daughters actually enjoy using them. I used to have to beg and plead
    with them to use the s/w on the 128. Now I have to wait til its their
    bedtime before Dad gets a chance to use the 500 :-). Reviews of the
    ed. s/w packages I've bought forthcoming as replies to this note.

							-Dom

    Since .0 asked for ed s/w reviews, here's one of a package we picked up
    at the Memory Location after some hands on testing. It's called MathTalk
    by First Byte. Used for addition, subtraction, division, multiplication
    problems; incorporates the Amiga's speech synthesis into the program,
    prompting the student along the way (via Professor Matt A. Matics). He
    sounds a bit like "Albert" in the recent incarnations of Disney's Absent
    Minded Professor/Flubber movies.

    There are a number of activities, ranging from a workshop, to a "guess
    the missing number" to a fill in the multiplication or addition tables,
    to a test-taking mode.

    The "workshop" is what sold us on it. For double digit arithmetic, the
    professor instructs you to "add the ones column", which is highlighted,
    then add the tens column. For subtraction with borrowing, there's a 
    rename button to rename columns from which you borrow. It takes the
    student through step by step. If a mistake is made, the professor shows
    you how its done. For simple single digit addition/subtraction problems,
    dinosaur eggs are drawn, and counted. For more complex problems, the
    problem is done on a chalkboard & the answer simply written down column
    by column. (Would be nice to have shown grouping for multiplication
    & division problems). There's a "help me" button if you're totally
    unsure of how to solve the problem.

    For kids that don't need the workshop, there's a test-taking mode in
    which you have to enter the answer from left to right. Answers can be
    entered via the keyboard or can be picked off a calculator style keypad
    using the mouse. Some of the activities can be timed, though you also
    have the option of selecting no time limit. (Trying to enter 100 answers
    into the 10x10 multiplication grid with a time limit is a real toughie,
    so having the no time limit option is nice in that it doesn't frustrate
    the child).

    It comes with only 2 sets of problems (math pages). You get to make
    up your own, max of 24 to a page. Constructing the problems is relatively
    simple, though I have to remind myself to "shut the professor up" before
    entering this part of the program since I can enter numbers faster than
    the professor can talk. Addition problems can consist of more than 2 
    numbers. Most problems can go out to 5 digits. 

    The package keeps statistics on each student, allows retakes of problems
    missed using the "incredible talking calculator". Parents can keep track
    of a child's progress via the "view score file" menu.

    My only complaint with this package is that it's not fully Amigatized.
    Even after only a few weeks of having our Amiga, the kids know that right
    button press & hold gets you to the menus. This program uses the left
    button, though there are big icons that can be used in place of the
    menus (dialog boxes are then used in place of the menu choices). Actually,
    right button does work, but the menu items aren't highlighted. One
    other problem is that its a Mac port (the menus in the manual show the
    Mac key rather than the Amiga key) & the Mac hourglass wait pointer
    is used (tough to see as it often blends into the background) rather
    than the Amiga's snoozer which is bigger & easier to see. Sometimes 
    there's a slight 1 or 2 second delay between the time the arrow pointer 
    disappears and the wait pointer shows up, making you wonder what the 
    program's up to. The colors are also a bit disappointing, a lot of dark 
    blues & oranges are used.

    The program's not copy protected, and unfortunately, doesn't multitask.
    Load times are a tad slow, but not unbearable. My daughters (9 & 12) do 
    enjoy using it, all in all I'd rate it a 4 out of 5. 

						    -Dom
    
    

    Re: .0
    
>        And while I'm on the subject, if anyone has any experience
>    	with any educational software I'd appreciate comments.  As
>    	a (soon to be) Amiga family my better half has made it very
>    	clear that our 8 and 11 year olds will not spend ALL of their
>    	computer time playing games.  So any information in this area
>    	will be helpful. I'd be especially interested in any info on
>    	Logo.  The kids use this in school now (on Apples) and seem to
>    	enjoy it.


    Mike, 

	The Jan/Feb 90 issue of Info has a review of Amiga Logo. Generally,
    they said Commodore did an okay job on it, but could have done a lot
    more to differentiate Amiga Logo from all the other Logos on the market.
    From the review: "Commodore has missed the opportunity to make the editing 
    environment "Amiga-tized" and friendly, and that's the major flaw with 
    this product." If you haven't seen the review, send mail & I'll forward 
    a copy to you.

							-Dom
    
    

    Speller Bee (First Byte)

	Another piece of educational s/w from the Math Talk people - this
    one allows the child to enter spelling words into the spelling library
    and be tested in a variety of ways (it also comes with its own spelling
    lists). The package allows the user to alter the sound of those words that 
    the speech synthesizer has difficulty with. The correct spelling is 
    entered in one column; the "sounds like" spelling in an adjacent column. 
    I'd say that it does pretty well with 95% of the words. Those that it has 
    difficulty with can usually be phonetically entered (e.g. library is 
    pronounced leebrary, so you enter it in the "sounds like" column as 
    "lie brary"). Some of the words take a few tries to get them to sound 
    right - geese kept coming out as jees - it took some experimenting to get 
    it to sound correct (I think I had to enter it as ghees). And "is" keeps
    coming out as iss, even though I'm entering it as iz. There's 
    (unfortunately) no way to change emphasis on syllables.

	Speller Bee has a number of activities that make it fun to use. In
    "Bee Prepared", the program presents the words, pronounces them, spells 
    them letter by letter and then asks the child to respell the word once the
    word is cleared. In addition there are "Mystery Words", "Scrambled Words" 
    and a "Word Find" game. In mystery words, the word list (max of 10 
    words per list) is presented, then words are displayed with missing 
    letters that have to be filled in. Scrambled words simply jumbles the 
    letters and asks the child to enter the unscrambled spelling. Word find 
    is just like a standard word find, though there's a sparsely filled matrix 
    option in addition to a completely filled matrix. Simply click with the 
    mouse on the first letter of any word. The last activity is the "Spelling
    Bee" which simply pronounces the word and asks the child to spell it.
    I'm not quite sure how well the program copes with distinguishing words
    like their, there & they're in this section. Since it doesn't make up
    sentences, it may be "thinking of" their, and the child might enter 
    "there", be correct, but get it wrong. I may have to add some additional 
    help in the "sounds like" column, such as "their - possessive".

	There's an extremely good tutorial mode & help is available at any
    time. Graphics in this program are very colorful, though it still suffers
    from the Mac-like interface. The disk is not copy protected and the
    program doesn't multitask. Word lists can be stored either on the
    program disk (max of 32 10-word lists) or on a separate disk. A child 
    could pretty easily enter the words since the user interface is fairly
    easy (especially with the tutorial), though a parent might have to help
    out getting the few words that don't sound right to sound correct.

	I'd rate it a 8.5 out of 10, downgrading for the Mac like interface,
    lack of emphasis, and a brain-dead spelling list requester box - you can
    only click on the up/down arrows to get the next list into the box (ie,
    press & hold doesn't work) & the click results in one additional file
    scrolling into the box (after a disk access), which then completely 
    repaints. Yuk.

							-Dom

For the younger ones Mixed up Mother Goose from Sierra although classed
as a game I believe is a good one for the littlies to stretch their brains.

The child has to wander around a 3d adventure arena finding the missing pieces
of nursery rhymes. i.e finds mary's little lamb and gives it to her. 

Stan.