Conference hydra::amiga_v1

Look at another very recent note in thsi conference which addresses
this very issue concerning a VAX and Amiga

John

    Well, it'd be expensive, but you could buy Dale Luck's X-windows,
    and the necessary communication hardware, and use that to share
    resources.  Use the 500 to run some X clients and display the output
    on the 2500.  Or vice versa.
    
    Dale demo'ed a standard 2500 and a Unix 2500+68030 doing just that,
    and it worked beautifully.  The performance was exceptional.  He was
    running TCP/IP over Ethernet.
                                                              
    Right now, the choice of transports is pretty small.  They are working
    hard to allow a variety of protocols to run over a variety of
    transports.  Ie. TCP/IP, DECnet, etc - over - Ethernet, serial, etc.
    The hooks are in place for DECnet, but I don't believe it's available
    yet.
    
    There are discussions of this elsewhere.
    
    Steve

    Don't forget all those games that can be played over a modem (or
    in this case, a null modem).
    
    re:.2  anybody heard if midi can be one of the transports?  Seems
    like it would make a great low speed network, with adapters already
    available, some even with serial port pass thru.
    
    In the ST world, Midi-Maze uses it for transport to talk to multiple
    STs.  Nice game, is anybody working on an Amiga version of it?
    
    -Dave

    re: .2
        
�    The hooks are in place for DECnet, but I don't believe it's available
�    yet.
    
    There was a small article in the July Amiga Computing International
    announcing DECnet (endnode) for the Amiga. I can remember that NCP
    and NFT were supported, but mail and some others were to be in the
    next release. I'll dig out the article tonight and post it tomorrow.
    
    
    					Alan T.

	The previous note talks about VAX-Amiga.  Wouldn't it be much easier
on an Amiga-Amiga system?  I don't know about Ethernet or TCP/IP (I'll have
to look them up in here).

	Is it possible to link the two (just hardware wise) without using the
serial port?  

	If not, is there an in-board modem you can buy for the 2xxx to bypass
the serial prt?

--mikie--

    
    You might want to look back through some recent notes for something
    called DNET written by Matt Dillon.  I believe this works between
    amigas.
    
    -steve

    Re: .5
    
    There are several options:
    
    1. Use Ethernet (running TCP/IP, DECNet, younameit). There are several
    cards available, but this is going to be the most expensive approach
    (~$1000 at least for both systems). But this is also going to be
    very fast and "future compatible".
    
    2. Wait for the announced ARCNet cards from CBM (A2060, A560). These
    should perform a little slower than Ethernet, but will probably
    be much cheaper.
    
    3. You can use the parallel port for communication, it's
    bi-directional. CBM used (still uses?) this method in their development
    environment for fast data transfer. Unfortunately I can't think
    of any decent program that supports this, especially DNet would
    be a killer with this. However, you would loose your (parallel)
    printer connection.
    
    4. There are a number of serial/modem boards available for the A2000.
    This way you could use the builtin port for communication with the
    A500. Since there are also multiple serial AND parallel boards out
    there, you might run a multi-user BBS on the A2000, communicating
    with the A500 via the (builtin) parallel port and printing some
    documents using an additional parallel port on a card.
    
    Since the cards in #4 also cost money, #3 would be the cheapest
    solution, given that you or someone else whips up the software.
    
    Regards,
    
    <CB>

How about taking that old 500 and hacking up the motherboard to plug into
an A2000 slot. A mere matter of microcode would get you a

	Multi-Processor (already) Multi-Tasking Amiga (A4000?)

Any takers?

John (the instigater)

    The 68000 isn't microcodable
    Tom

	Where is DNET?  I looked through previous notes and found a reference
to it on NORSE, but alas, it isn't there.  Has it been recalled for selling
purposes?  I think this may be the answer for me.  I like the idea of the 
parallel connection (add another to the 2xxx for printer) and client-type
operation.
	Please help me find it!  I won't get the 2xxx for a while, and I could
examine the stuff and maybe hack it for my needs...

--mikie--

Depending on what you wish to do between the two
(or more) Amigas, you could use the SCSI bus.

That would make it an:

	AmigaCluster!!


                        -Jeff

    
    re .10
    
    	Dnet version 2.0 is on Fred Fish Disk 220. The disk is in
    
    	TAPE::USER1:[AMIGA.FISH.FF220]FF220.ZOO
    
    
    		Steve Peters
    

    Don't forget to get the NET: device stuff from the Software Distillery.
    This allows you to access devices on the other systems as if they
    are local devices.  I tried doing this the other day and it was
    pretty neat!  I ran a program from a "remote" system (about 2 feet
    away) just to see if it could be done.  The NET: device is built
    on top of DNET.

There was a nice writeup on the Software Distillery's NET: device and how
it works.

Very Clever!  Wonder if those guys will support UNIX machines (DNET does).

Now that would be nice!

John

    Re: last few
    
    Yeah, NET: sounds VERY nice, unfortunately I can't seem to able
    to get my hands on it. Would the gentleman who shared his experiences
    with this software a few notes back be so kind and upload it to
    TAPE::, NORSE:: WJG::, etc.
    
    On the topic of SCSI-NET, the only implementation I know of is the
    Cltd. stuff. Now, if you don't care for DMA/fast and efficient data
    transfer, these controllers are for you. :-) (Read my HD controller
    review some hundred notes back) Or if you have enough spare cash,
    you might use the Cltd stuff for networking and get a "real"
    controller for your HD(s)...
    
    Regards,
    
    <CB>  
    

re: .11

>Depending on what you wish to do between the two
>(or more) Amigas, ...

That's the key.  Before you can talk about "how" to do it you need to figure
out the "why" of doing it.  What are you trying to accomplish - file
transfers, remote devices, etc?

>That would make it an:
>	AmigaCluster!!

I like it!  That way a person could get a hard disk on one system and have
a few 500's clustered in and share the drive! :-)  Maybe we could even get
some distributed queing???  Yeah, and cluster-wide process control like in
VMS 5.2.  Yeah, that's the ticket!

Dreaming along,

...richard

    re:.16
    
    That sharing of the harddisk is possible now with Cltd's SCSI-net.
    How do we convince the other vendors that
    1. it's a great idea
    2. implement it in a compatible way so that it will work with
       other vendor implementations of SCSI-net
    
    But how do you get beyond the 8 node SCSI limit? (with 2 systems
    with 3 imbedded SCSI drives each, you reached the limit.  Hmmm..
    what if you had two controllers, each going to a different SCSI
    bus.... and then add routing.... naw... too silly.
    
    -Dave

	Ok, I guess I'll define what I'd like to be able to do (which sounds
a lot like DNet):

	Running DNet over the parallel port, I'd like to get on the 2500 and:

-	Freely swap files from system to system

-	Run programs (using Intuition) on the 500; i.e. use the 2500 as a
	remote graphic terminal

-	Start-up a remote CLI

	I guess number two is the most important.  To be able to have full
control over what goes on on the other system by either CLI or actual graphic
contact.

--mikie--

re .16

    
>    But how do you get beyond the 8 node SCSI limit? (with 2 systems

Logical Units

re .15
    
    I too can't seem to find NET: and would like someone to please upload.
    Thanks in advance....Steve
    

    re:.19
    
    Know of any imbedded SCSI drives with ports for 8 Logical Units?
    Or any ports on the drive for accessing Logical Units?
    
    Seems like a nice spec, but the implementation of imbedded SCSI
    really puts a crimp on the ability to use SCSI as a network bus.
    
    I've heard of 2 and 4 LUN SCSI-to-ST506 controllers, does anybody
    sell a 8 LUN controller?
    
    -Dave

No, no embedded scsi disks use logical units (why would they? Just extra
work for nothing)

I think when things like media changers, printer servers, rs232 servers etc get
popular, LUN's will pick up.

John

    re:.22  (why would they?  Just extra work for nothing)
    
    You hit it exactly.  Why bother providing expansion capabilities.
    
    So much for SCSI, maybe SCSI 2 will address how to go beyond
    8 scsi devices on the bus.  LUNs seem like a lost cause.
    
    Unless... somebody makes a SCSI device that can have embedded
    SCSI devices as LUNs off of it.  I've only seen Adaptec and OMTI
    units, the LUNs they talk to are ESDI or ST506.
    
    -Dave

    I'll try to copy the NET: Stuff to TAPE::, look for it there!

re more SCSI ID's:

Nope. SCSI II has no extra device support. They provide for a 32 bit
data path through the use of a second cable, but no arbitration
can happen on this cable. So we're still limited to the 8 primary
SCSI devices. IMHO a severe architectural limitation on a growing bus.

SCSI II does claim to be doing away with the LUN field in the CDB (which
allows only 8 LUN's per ID for a total of 64 devices) and recommends
use of the IDENTIFY message. I think this provides  1024 LUNs/ID but
there still LUN's.

You could make a SCSI server thingie which hung SCSI devices off it as
LUN's. The problem is that since the devices behind your server hardware
are true SCSI devices, they are limited by the stub cable length of 4 inches-
makes for a tight box! Unless the server hardware did something funny, this
really isn't feasable.

Now what could be done is for the server to have it's own private SCSI bus 
hanging behind it. Now you select the server from the main bus, and specify 
an LUN. Theserver goes onto it's private bus, selects the device 
corresponding to the LUN you specified and passes the command to it. It then
provides data pass through between the busses. You've just gotten 8*2-1 devices
total (-1 sincethe server takes 1 ID on BOTH busses). MAkes for a bit slower 
initil transaction time (arbitration to command phases) but gives you more
inherent true SCSI device capability.

Or you could do what DEC does: Put 2 busses on the system (A bus and B bus,
sorry, no magic bus:-). Here the system figures what device is on what bus.

I'm not sure if Amiga would handle 2 SCSI cards (i.e. 2 A2090's) in one
box (although with the amiga device philosophy, it should...).
Maybe 1 A2090 and 1 A2090(a). You'ld boot off one bus and have a second
just full of devices!

John

    Re: .25
    
    Yeah, it's possible to plug in more than one SCSI controller into
    the A2000. My current record is one GVP, Supra and A2090 at once,
    during some tests. There are definite problems with old Cltd
    controllers (they don't terminate the bus properly).
    
    Still, not the cheapest way to build a network. ;-)
    
    Regards,
    
    <CB>

    re:.25
    
    thanks for the info, I was wondering what future SCSI had.  I've
    been seeing ads pushing ESDI as the growth path from ST506.  The
    main feature being that it was faster, haven't seen much of a push
    for SCSI in the ibmpc market (other than pcs sold by DEC).
    
    I read that Transactor article on the NET: device, it sounds like
    it should be a lot of fun to try.
    
    At this point, MIDI hardware looks like the cheapest way to hook up more
    than two Amigas, plus you could actually use it for MIDI when
    you get tired of using it as a computer-computer network.
    
    -Dave

RE:.17

>    That sharing of the harddisk is possible now with Cltd's SCSI-net.

Ah Ha! Bagels breath! SCSInet is only a rumor from the Cardco charlatians
of C-Ltd! 

My AmigaCluster (to which Jeff earlier refered) don't use no "stinkin
SCSInet software." It just uses plain old standard SCSI arbitration for a
standard multi-host environment. I can share disks in a read-only manner
and that is what I do for my system disk. No problem. Manual care and 
coordination allow sharing of other disks. No magic and SCSInet (from
C-Ltd) is only very very thin vapor.

There is no controller that I know of that supports being a target as well
as a host. This really messes up a network implementation. The most likely is
the Hardframe and it does not. The hardware is there, but the driver does not
handle it at all.

Using an AmigaCluster is a real feature since it allows me to only manage one
system, games, development disk for both systems. This also save about 18meg
over duplicating the same for both Amigas.

	-SES

I was at Systems Eyes Sunday and I noticed that they had for sale
CMI's "multiport" board.

The multiport board has a serial port, a parallel port, and an Appletalk
port on it.  The box claims that you can buy the Appletalk network
software from CMI.  Since there was no box of Appletalk software on
display next to the hardware, I wonder if the software is still vapor.

Appletalk is the Macintosh network from Apple.  It uses fairly inexpensive
cables and high speed serial ports to link everything together.

I remember that CMI announced its Appletalk board back in March at
AmiExpo.  I was a little bit amused because there was a hardware
panel (of two or three disk drive manufactures) that I attended
where someone asked "How about Amiga networks?"  The drive manufatures
said "Naw, no one is working on it, the Amiga market is still too
small."  Meanwhile, down in the exhibit hall, I counted three companies
that were promising cheap Amiga networks RSN.  (CMI seemed furthest
along at that time.)

> Using an AmigaCluster is a real feature since it allows me to only manage one
> system, games, development disk for both systems. This also save about 18meg
> over duplicating the same for both Amigas.


But that doesn't give you any kind of file locking if for example, Amiga A
was writing or updating a file and Abiga B tried to read it.

Of am I missing something?

John

RE:.30

>  But that doesn't give you any kind of file locking if for example, Amiga A
>  was writing or updating a file and Abiga B tried to read it.

That was why I said I can share READ-ONLY disks. Locking and coordination
of read/write disks is *user* provided. This is what comes "for free."

	-SES

Sorry! Missed that part.

John

    
    re .29
    
    	I have a CMI multiport board and seems to work good. There is
    an optional SCSI port ( $50 ) that is a simple ( slow ) port. The
    Appletalk software is still vapor. It is expected to ship in mid
    September.
    
    	The board ships with drivers for the RS-232 ( DB-9 ), the
    RS-422 ( DIN - Appletalk ), and parallel port. The parallel port
    is output only. They also provide software to redirect standard
    I/O to any of their ports.
    
    	It would be very easy to modify DNET to any of the serial ports.
    
    		Steve Peters
    

    Old, old old note that I started (hard to believe).  Well, I've been
    using ParNet for a while (even though my NetStat doesn't work
    properly...could be 2.04) and I like how it works.  I use it
    sporadically enough to not know much about the details, but it's been
    pretty valuable.
    
    However, it's pretty slow.  I estimate it being about 3x the speed of a
    floppy disk, when using two 7.16 Mhz machines.  I'm now used to the
    2.58 Mbit/sec transfer rate of the HD+ (EXCEPT NOW WHEN IT'S BUST!) and
    ParNet does have some limitations I'd like to find a way around.
    
    Anyway, I'm lookin' at the back of my HD+ and the back of the 3000/16
    that'll be mine as soon as I start making money (ha!) and they both
    have SCSI ports.  And I know the GVP controller supports LUN's.  SO....
    
    Anyone hear anything more about a SCSI network driver?
    
    Mike