Conference hydra::amiga_v1

re: buy Seagate

Don't do it. Save your money and buy a good drive.

John

    Funny, I've had an ST251 (ST-506 version) for over a year and no
    problems.

    
    I have a Seagate ST277N that's been reliable for over a year, but I
    think Seagate drives, um, suck.
    
    This drive sounds like a sick blender when it seeks.  It uses an older
    technology (stepper motor/drive band) for the head positioner.  Any
    worthwhile drive will use a voice coil positioner.  However, Seagates
    are relatively cheap nowadays, probably because no one wants them.
    
    If you can afford it, get a Quantum 40 or 80 mb drive.  If you look at
    the diskperf numbers, the combination of a MicroBotics Hardframe
    controller and a Quantum drive make an unbeatable combination.
    
    
    Ed.

    
    Since I know where Ralf works, I wonder why he can't (won't) get
    his hands on a RD53. These are very relieable and fast (for MFM
    drives anyway) beasties.
    And if you're into SCSI get a CDC Wren, Maxtor XT-xxxxS or a Quantum
    drive.
    
    A little side note:
    Most of the wonderful diskperf numbers one get's with the Quantum
    drives are related their onboard 64KB cache. While this is nice,
    it doesn't help you as much in REAL(tm) life usage as you would
    expect. Drives that support higher data transfer rates and seek
    times "naturally" are my choice.
    
    Regards,
    <CB>
    

    O.K.
    	Hows does One buy a cheap RD53 ?
    
    I've been quoted between �500 (external source) �1000 (internal) 
    
    How much should you pay for a drive ?
    
    			Steve G

    
    Re: .5 
    
    To get a cheap HD, you ask your buddie at the Field Service, or
    find units that where ordered and nobody want's them anymore.
    Insert :-) as needed.
    
    A reasonable price for a RD53 would be in the DM 1000, $500 range.
    I don't do pounds sterling. :-)
    
    I paid DM 1200 for my Micropolis 1325 (RD53) two years ago. Which
    was VERY cheap at that time.
    
    Now I'm thinking about getting a 320MB Maxtor XT-3380S SCSI drive
    for $ 1300. See the price drop?
    
    Charging more than 500 pounds for a RD53 should only be done to
    customers. :-)   
                                                 
    <CB>
    
        

    re: .2
    
    I've been using my ST251 since September of 1987.  I've had no problems
    with it.  Of course, I keep it backed up, which is probably why it
    doesn't fail.
    
    re: .5
    
    I agree with .6: don't pay for DEC products, just borrow them.  You'll
    have to bring it back when you leave DEC, and there is some paperwork
    hassle every six months or so, but that's better than paying!
        John Sauter

    Well if that's all their is to it I'll just try and ask my manager for
    either an RZ23 (105 megs SCSI) or RZ55 (330 megs SCSI)
    
    	I'll let you know
    			Steve G

    Oh YEAH...
    
    In Germany there is no REGULAR Employee-Purchase-Plan !!!
    So it's very difficult to buy a RD53. Usual prices for a RD53 via
    EPP are  ~ $150 !!!!!

    EPP's were organized by the Idle-Material-Group in our HQ.
    Only a FEW persons know when it's EPP ... AND there is NO chance
    for the rest of the interested people to buy one. (SIGH)

	Ralf
    	====
        
            

    re: .8
    
    Depending on your manager, asking may not be the best way to go.
    To quote Grace Murray Hopper, "It is easier to apologize than to
    ask permission."  I suggest you find a loose disk, fill out the
    property pass paperwork, and ask some friendly authorized person
    to sign it.  That person might be your manager's secretary.
        John Sauter

Re: .0

For the record, I have a Seagate ST-157n (48 meg, 3.5 inch).  I bought
it 14 months ago.

The drive seems to be developing Seagate disease: Twice, upon power up,
the drive failed to spin up properly.  The drive would begin to flash
its LED (the number of flashes tells you the failure reason; unfortunately,
I've never got a count of the flashes).

Cycling the power causes the drive to begin working again.  So far,
there have only been two instances of this problem (about six weeks
apart, although my Amiga was packed up for four of those weeks).
I've been keeping good backups.

It's called Stiction.

When spinning, hard disk heads "fly" a few microinches above the media.
When stopped, they land on the media, in a dedicated landing zone.

What happens is (usually after the drive is running for awhile and heats up),
when you power it down, the heads land on the media and if they sit there
awhile, they stick to the lubrication in the landing zone. 6 or 8 heads stuck
will usually cause the drive to not spin up till a nice rotational shock free's
them (hopefully from the media and not the flextures!).

This is one of seagates well known problems.

Working for the buyout group, we have evaluated *every* drive worldwide
and I can say with confidence and experience - Most Seagate drives are
JUNK and are a time bomb waiting to happen. 

Another problem is with the ST225/251 class. They (Like Ed A. said) use
a band wrapped around the stepper (that's right, they still use steppers!)
motor's shaft to move the head/arm assembly. Well, besides being nasty
technology, it has a couply problems - The band and the shaft are made of
dissimilar metals. While this doesn't cause any battery action (like some may
be thinking), it does cause them to expand/contract at different rates over
temperature! What do you get? Straaange seek errors! When we did the RD31/32
I came up with a fix which got implemented in the controllers - 
The (infamous) "Shoe Shine Algorithm". What this does is when you get a seek
error, the controller will seek to the outer most track, then back to track 0
a couple times. This unwinds the band and relieves the stress.

Gime me a break Seagate! Unfortuneatly they were the furthest along of
all the vendors at the RD31/32 time. We haven't bothered with Seagate too much
since then (although mostly because they don't have the preformance products
we [DEC] require these days)


There are lots of notes on Seagate trouble over USENET. Not very well liked
in general.


Whew!
John

    RE. 11
    
    no, i heard about DM 250-300,- (thats $150) !
    
    Ralf
    ====

	I've had an ST251-1 for a little over a year.  Up until recently, it's
been fine.  Last night, I got a "read/write error".  Knowing that the drive was
about 53% full, I asked INFO about it - 33%.  Great, four megs gone.  Good thing
I have backups.  Well, there's some stuff that's new, let's see if I can save
it.  Both Disksalv and Quarterback Guru'd trying to read the disk.  Okay, I
think I'll cut my losses, and re-format.  No dice.  The format seemed to work,
but INFO shows the status as "validating", even after an hour of no disk
activity.  No operations on the disk seem to work.

	Can drives be repaired, or is it strictly a case of replacement?  I
really don't want to drop the money on a new drive (particularly since it
wouldn't be a Seagate) at this point.  Any ideas?

Mark

    
    	My ST251 is about 3 years old and just started get Read/Write
    errors. After low-level formatting and testing followed by AMIGA
    formatting I was able to get the drive working again. My low-level
    formatter said it marked 17 new bad blocks.
    
    	re .-1
    Try running PREP or what ever came with your controller to get the
    drive working again. I am also intersted in where to send a Seagate
    drive to be fixed, how long it takes, and how much it cost ?
    
    	Steve 
    

	I have the PREP program that came with the A2090, but that's it for
low level formatters.  It doesn't (so far as I know) do any bad-blocking, 
other than asking me which spots I want to mark as bad.

	Is there a low level formatter that will work with the A2090/ST251-1
that will mark bad blocks?

Mark

    
    Computer Shopper lists several drive rebuilding shops that offer
    complete head/media replacement for under $150.  I recall one shop here
    in Mass that a friend used to rebuild an ST251.
    
    I'll find out the name and get back to you...
    
    Ed

    
    Peripheral Repair Corporation
    
    East Coast:	800-627-DISK
    Left Coast: 818-700-8482
    
    My frined paid $130 for a Seagate ST251 rebuild, but these folks claim
    to be able to work on anything.  They advertise a class 100 clean room
    and 7-10 day turnaround.
    
    When you call, they'll tell you where to send the drive and issue an
    RMA number.
    
    

FYI .. The ST-277N 65 MBytes Seagates are available for $400.