Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    
    My Seagate ST277N with SCSIDos 3.0 is now getting about 250 K reads
    and 48 K writes with an interleave of 2:1.
    
    The drive is a 39 mSec model.
    
    Ed.

    Can you post a copy of your mountlist for that drive?  Also, do
    you know if there are  different versions of DiskPerfa?  I'm hoping
    I have a slow one :^) .
    
    Really, this is driving me silly...  The speed is quite acceptable,
    but knowing it can go faster is maddening. (Same character fault
    that got me in trouble with cars and tickets as a kid!)
    
    John
    
    By the way, any ifo on CLtd's new fromatter with 3.0?  I forgot
    to ask Lippert last time I talked with him.
    

    
    No new formatter as of last week (I log onto their BBS about once
    per week).
    
    #
    
     DH0:   Device = CLtd.device
       FileSystem = l:FastFileSystem
       Unit = 1000
       Flags = 0
       Surfaces = 6
       BlocksPerTrack = 26
       Reserved = 2
       Interleave = 0
       LowCyl = 1
       HighCyl = 405
       Buffers = 8
       GlobVec = 1
       BufMemType = 4
       DosType = 0x444F5301
       StackSize = 4000
       Priority = 10
       MaxTransfer = 230000
       Mount = 1
    #
    
     DH1:   Device = CLtd.device
       FileSystem = l:FastFileSystem
       Unit = 1000
       Flags = 0
       Surfaces = 6
       BlocksPerTrack = 26
       Reserved = 2
       Interleave = 0
       LowCyl = 406
       HighCyl = 811
       Buffers =8
       GlobVec = 1
       BufMemType = 4
       DosType = 0x444F5301
       StackSize = 4000
       Priority = 10
       MaxTransfer = 230000
       Mount = 1
    #
    

RE:.3


>      Buffers = 8

I use buffers = 9 and get very similiar results with a ST277N.

    I  have downloaded the "FINAL" version of scsidos 3.0. It has the
new formatter and I have used it. There is no documentation to  speak
of  in  the  package.  While  I was logged into the C-Ltd BBS the day
after downloading it I had a conversation with a sysop.  I  told  the
sysop  I  had  downloaded the latest 3.0 the day before. I also asked
where the on-line documentation was. He said  it  is  "sort  of  self
documenting."  My  reply  was  that he was mistaken. I am experienced
installing C-ltd controller software and had  problems  figuring  out
what  was  supposed  to be happening. At this point the sysop excused
themself...

    I  find  this  pretty  irritating.  C-Ltd  seems  to  make decent
controller and reliable software but  has  real  problems  delivering
usable documentation.

    Also,  whoever  is running the C-Ltd BBS is not doing a great job
lately. It seems to  have  been  the  sole  domain  of  the  recently
departed (from C-Ltd) Charlie Fair. I would like to see C-Ltd better
manage this interface with their customers.

	-SES

    
    I agree with you 100% re C Ltd's documentation.  It's abysmal, with
    things like 'see chapter two for an explanation of mumble' and mumble
    is never again mentioned in the text.
    
    Their BBS seems to be running on autopilot since Charlie has gone.
    
    Based on magazine reviews and dealer recommendations, I'd have to
    steer new users towards either the CBM controller or the GVP product
    line.
    
    Ed.

    Since this topic is talking about disks I am in the process of adding
    a A2090 controller and a Quantum 40S 42 meg disk. I am having problems
    trying to partition the disk. If I PREP the disk as one whole partition
    it formats fine. If I partition it into 3 sections it bombs out
    in the format. Thanks in advance for any help...
    
    Renis

    Memory Location has stopped carrying C Ltd. products because of
    their lousy support.
    
    I just got my copy of SCSIdos 3.0 in the mail yesterday.  It came
    with a very fat manual ( I haven't read it yet.)  At least they
    print it for you.  When I got my AM-33 drive, everything was on
    a disk...and the utility to print it was on the hard disk.  So,
    you had to set up the hard disk without any directions, just to
    get to the program to print the directions...makes a lot of sense,
    huh?  My drive failed three days later.  Installing it was a confusing
    nightmare.  There were a lot of calls to C Ltd. to  figure things
    out.  
    
    I ordered 3.0 two months ago.  I was told that it would be shipped
    the next day.  I had to re-place the order a week ago.  I'll spend
    the weekend trying to figure it out.
    
    Pray for me.
    
    Randy
    

    I would like to cast a vote FOR C-Ltd.  Granted, their manuals are
    poorly structured, and require one or two careful readings before
    you completely understand, but I've found their technical support
    to be very good; every time I've contacted them they've had a very
    friendly and sincerely helpful attitude, even when the manual had
    the answer to my question and I didn't look hard enough to find
    it.

RE: .-1

    Like I said in .4: Their products are fine, the support (human on
phone)  is  fine,  the  support  (BBS) WAS fine until quite recently,
their documentation is very very poor.

    Takes  a potential 8 or 9 product (on a scale of 10) and moves it
down to the 3-5 range.

	-SES

Where did you find the 4000 for $89.  I'm trying to get a hard drive system 
together

               Jim

    C. Ltd support is good unless you mention that you got SCSI Dos
    3.0 from their BBS. Then they break their arm trying to get you
    off the phone.  I have bben having a small problem since SCSIdos
    2.6 and they won't discuss it over the phone.  Since I got SCSIDos
    3.0 from their BBS I have to dial in and leaave a  message.
    
    Good thing its not a total down situation.
    
    Alan                                              
    
    P.S.  My disk wont mount after a fresh power up and the system has
    been off for a few hours.  It takes a few power cycles to get the
    thing to mount properly.  After that everything works OK.
    
    Also SCSICheck only works if the Adaptec is jumpered for an evan
    address and SCSIcheck only sees the next odd address(picks the LSB?).  If
    the Adaptec is jumpered for an odd address SCSICheck hangs.
    Inquire and ClearSCSi work O.K. at all Adaptec address settings.
                     
    Just though I would throw this in.
    
    
    
    

    re: .10
    
    A4000  for $89     Computer Surplus Store
                       (408) 434-0168

    I have ordered a couple drives, an A4000  and a couple A4000a's from
    them with excellent response and no problems with the hardware.
     They also have the Adaptec A4000 series manuals in stock.
    
    
    
    re: CLtd response to customers
    
    If it wasn't for the ability of the CLtd software/hardware to run
    multiple controllers, scanners, printers, etc,  I'd migrate to
    Pacific's OverDrive or the A2090a.  (I didn't have any luck using the
    GVP with an Adaptec).  The BBS is pretty much useless.  I have been waiting
    for the new 3.0 formatter to be available as a separate file, as
    Ed Lippert of CLtd  had said it would be.
    As far as support goes, it ABSOLUTELY depends on who you happen
    to get on the phone.  You get a different answer every time you
    call.  The current manual for 3.0 is much better than any of the
    past ones, but you would think they would put together a better
    "Getting Started" section.  It seems the manual is written for
    the writer rather than the user.
    
    On the plus side,  once you get used to the system and the new
    architecture, the software gives you incredible flexibility.
    Unfortunately, an new user unfamiliar with disks would probably
    throw themself off a cliff before figuring out how to get the system
    up.  This is probably due to the fact that their products are intended
    to be bundled together into a turn-key system.
    
    Maybe it's time for us CLtd controller owners to drop Ed Lippert
    a line, expressing concerns and some constructive suggestions. Couldn't
    hurt and might just help.
    
    At this point, unless a helping hand was available, I couldn't
    recommend the CLtd controller/SCSIDOS 3.0 package to a new Amiga
    owner unless they were quite familiar with disks or needed the extended
    capabilities of SCSIDOS 3.0.
 
    
    John
    
    

    

    Well, I just spent the holiday weekend trying to install SCSIdos
    3.0 without any luck.  I did call CLtd. Customer Service and they
    gave me a few tips...which didn't work.  I am now in the process
    of packing up my disks to send them to CLtd. to make THEM do it.
    
    Lengthy long distance calls at my expense for their poorly documented
    and poorly implemented software just aren't worth it.
    
    Here's an example of what's wrong.  When you boot with their disk,
    as instructed, you run a program that will automatically modify
    your old boot disk (using a copy of the old disk.)  Well, you get
    halfway through the process and then it hits a bug:  The program
    can't find one of IT'S OWN sub programs to continue the process
    and drops you back to CLI.  So that forces the user to continue
    manually...but with very few clues as to the process.
    
    Another thing, the startup-sequence that they recommend and provide
    calls for a program called DEFDISK.  Guess what?  THEY DON'T INCLUDE
    IT!!!  So the startup-sequence won't work.  Even without that line
    in the startup-sequence, I can't get the drive to work at all.
    
    I went through this same type of crap when I bought the drive a
    year ago.  I thought that they would have improved their ways given
    the number of units sold.  Well, they haven't.
    
    I don't like being asked If I've read the documentation by the customer
    support people.  Yes, I've read it.  I can almost recite it at this
    point.  I consider myself to be fairly computer literate.  I cannnot
    imagine how a naive user would ever get through this.
    
    Randy
    

    
    What really pissed ME off about C Ltd was their curt 'Did you read
    the docs?' attitude when I called for help.
    
    The documentation told me to use a certain file on the disk to
    low-level format the drive.  I did.  It didn't.  I tried a dozen
    different times and ways.
    
    When I got them to listen to my problem, they said 'Oh yeah.  That
    program doesn't work.'  Neither did most of the others that I got
    off of their BBS after a $10 download.
    
    This just ain't the way to do business.  
    
    By the way, I was in the Software Shop yesterday.  One of Moe's
    helpers told me that they are selling the 2000HD like hotcakes.
    Seems no one want's to screw around with formatting their own hard
    drive.  That's the way it should be.  Let CBM do the hard stuff
    and let the user just turn it on and run.
    
    Ed.

    Yup, I just downloaded ALL of SCSIdos 3.0 JUST to get the new
    formatter!  Other than it being buggy, doesnt match the documentation,
    doesn't recover from ANY errors from the disk, takes forever to
    format, it's pretty good. :^( 
    Their technique is quite good, the layout is fine, even the user
    interface is fine, support within the program for most disks on
    the market is there.  Their documentation, testing, QC, and general
    user support SUCKS!  If you can't figure it out on your own, (or
    have access to this notes file :^) ) you're in deep trouble.  If
    I wasn't so onery and stubborn, I'd replace my controlers with
    OverDrives.  Now that thing is user friendly!  Ah well...  now to
    get on with my letter to Ed Lippert...
    
    John
    

    oops... by the way,  with V3.0 of the formatter,  it's looking for
    the Unit Number assigned within DevSetup, NOT the actual SCSI Unit
    number.  This bit me for about and hour with "Device not found"
    or some such rot.  The Help menu is handy and helped me find the
    problem.  I guess this would only bite you if you tried to format
    at 2am in the morning :^)
    
    By the way, I tried to format three Micropolis 1325 drives (RD53
    equiv).  Only one would "pass".  All three were up and running at
    one time or another without any errors.  I can't be sure if the
    formatter is buggy or if I took a hit on the download.  The symptom
    is that on a read verify during the format, everything just hangs.
    The system is live, drive light is on, but nothing is happening
    and you have to re-boot.
    
    Also, when done formatting, if you ever get that far, the program
    (CLtd-Format-0 in my case) asks you if you want to save the
    configuration file, you answer, and you are left hanging.  Warm
    boot time again.
    
    Anyone else having these problems? 
    
    John
    
    

    I just picked up a Pacific Peripherals 50 meg overdrive for my A2000.
    
    What a difference!  The documentation was brief and to the point.
    I only had to call customer service once...with no waiting (the
    guy was even on his lunch break at the time!) to correct a simple
    problem.  The drive is up and running...and now loaded up with all
    my software.  If only my CLtd. drive were like this.  Granted, my
    problems with the other drive have made me more 'drive aware' making
    this installation easier.
    
    Randy
    

Try to reply to several here ... been out for a week.

RE: .11

    The  adaptec  4000  will return an error to SCSIcheck if no ST506
drive 0 is attached. This is regardless of SCSI  address.  I  have  2
4000's  with SCSI addresses of 0 and 1. Both work fine with SCSIcheck
AS LONG as a st506 drive 0 is connected. They  work  fine  with  only
unit  one  connected  in  "normal  operation"  which  seems  to  be a
limitation of SCSIcheck and not SCSIdos 3.0.


RE: .15

    I  think  the  3.0  formatter  is faster than under 2.6. I am not
pleased with the user interface and feel it could  have  easily  been
much much better.

RE: .16

    I  have  not  had  the problems with the formatter that you have.
Perhaps you got a bad load, or maybe  one  of  the  several  versions
(represented  as  the  released one) that (it appears) were posted on
their BBS within a few days.

    W.R.T.  the  SCSI  device addressing: I agree it should represent
the SCSI address and LUN, but it *is* consistent with the other parts
of SCSIdos 3.0 to use the DEVSetup drive numbers. yow!

    I  finally  got the SCSI interface for my 2000 today. Yea! I tied
its delivery to the shipping of SCSIdos 3.0. What  a  mistake.  Also,
just  before  Christmas I found out SCSI arbitration does not work in
3.0 for 68020s! Makes me wonder why I got an A2620!  Well  maybe  the
C-Ltd  controller...  On  the brighter side they said fixing it was a
high priority and they wanted to work with me on  it,  etc.  All  the
correct customer support words...


	-SES

    
    Hey!  That's THE SECOND A2500 that I've heard of here recently.  Where
    are all these A2620 boards coming from?  My dealer says they won't
    be available for another month or two...
    
    Ed.
    
    

Well, after quite a bit of money on long distance phone calls the C-Ltd
interface in my A2000 is working with the A2500 and all my hard disks.
Below is a summary of the problems and the fixes.

1) Nothing works. St277n or Adaptec based ST506 disks.

   Current version of "SCSI.Handler" does not do arbitration with a 
   A2620. My outfit just does not work. Seems that if the SCSI-2000
   has a NEC SCSI chip (the big one) it has problems with A2620's.

   Downloaded a new version of "SCSI.Handler" and the St277n works.
   The Adaptec drives mount, bit hang after putting the first icon on
   then screen when opened under workbench.

2) Adaptec drives hang
 
   Adaptecs suspected to be too slow to keep up with the A2620 driven 
   SCSI-2000 controller. C-Ltd suggests turning off block reads (source
   of major speed improvements for SCSIdos 3.0) for the ACB4000 based
   drives. Drives then work.

3) Arbitration seems to be broken.

   When I am booting the A500 and A2000 (running A2620) I will often get
   a read error on both machines at the same time. They are booting off
   seperate disks and both have arbitration enabled. Seems to have less of
   a problem if the A2000 is addressed higher than the A500 (higher addreess 
   always wins arbitration). When both boot off the St277n there are far far
   fewer errors. Often none at all.
 
   It would appear that even though it should make no difference (according 
   to C-Ltd and looking at SCSI specs) the ACB4000 has problems with a 
   multi-host SCSI environment. As a result I plan to use native SCSI drives
   in the future and sell my ST506 drives and Adaptecs which work fine in 
   a single host environment.

	-SES

I asked C-Ltd about the controller (now aimed at mid to end Febuary) they
call Kronos. It is much like the one they have now, but with dual-ported
ram buffer on-board and autoboot ROMs. All SCSI functions (like arbitration
timing) will be CPU controlled as well as reads and writes. This is similar
to the GVP approach. It seems to be a pretty minor change for all the hype 
they have given about it.

	-SES

    Steve,
    
    Have you tried an Omti 3527 SCSI adaptor with the 2620?  I just
    put one on-line and they are CONSIDERABLY faster than the Adaptec.
    
    John