Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    The november issue of Amazing computing has an article on HDs for
    the Amiga.
    
    Advice:  get a 2000 with kickstart 1.3, get the 2090A (fast and
    compatible + autoboot).  Cables (one 20 pin berg to card edge and
    one 34 pin ditto) can be bought at any peecee dealer.  If your drive
    is half height it can go in the 5�" slot, and powered by the Amiga
    power supply.  As for the extra drive, I would find a way to stuff
    it inside the 2000 box.
                             
    
    Jean
    

    Hi, all!
    
    Though old, this looks like a good place for my questions:
    
    Good fortune (and a LOVELY, KINDHEARTED, etc wife) allow me now to
    be considering a "deal" on a new A2000HD system. I'd like some
    opinions from the Amiga-2000 owning/previously owning community.
    
    The costs for the system and components I am considering are:
    
    A2000HD (52 meg HD, 1mb RAM) $ 1299 +tax
    1084S monitor                $  325 +tax
    PC bridgeboard               $  300 +tax (to run MS-DOS stuff better
                                             than CROSSDOS)
    
    Should I be considering other options/more memory? (I am going to wait on 
    a printer 'cause my daughter is going to sell me the one she uses on
    her A500... she and her roommate are going to share a printer next
    semester.)
    
    Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated!!
    
    Regards!
    
    John B.  

    
    I WOULD MOVE VERY QUICKLY IF I WERE YOU, THE CURRENT PRICE IS GOING TO
    GO UP SOON. 
    								bill

    re: .3
    
    Commodore has formally told its dealers that the A2000 price in .2 will
    end on December 31.  Informally, the Commodore salespersons are telling
    dealers that they need to order _now_, since when the current stock is
    gone A2000s will be orderable only at the new price.  It is possible
    that Commodore is blowing smoke to get orders in, but it is also
    possible that they're not.
    
    The current price will end before January 1, 1992.  Just how long
    before is unknown.
        John Sauter 

    Re .2:
    
>   A2000HD (52 meg HD, 1mb RAM) $ 1299 +tax

    This is a GOOD price (better than the educational price) -- buy it.
    
>   1084S monitor                $  325 +tax
    
    If you EVER plan to get a deinterlacer, consider doing it now.  The
    A2320 Display Enhancer Board and the MicroWay Flicker Fixer are both in
    the $250 range these days.  A decent VGA monitor can be bought for the
    same price as the 1084S; a decent multi-sync, such as the C=1950, will
    run closer to $600.  (You'll need external speakers for either.)
    
>   PC bridgeboard               $  300 +tax (to run MS-DOS stuff better
>                                            than CROSSDOS)
    
    CrossDOS just gives you the ability to format/read/write MS-DOS
    diskettes seamlessly.  The BridgeBoard gives you the ability to EXECUTE
    PC applications.  You'll want CrossDOS in either case.  (It's included
    at no extra charge in the A2000HD/P package.)

>   Should I be considering other options/more memory? (I am going to wait on 
>   a printer 'cause my daughter is going to sell me the one she uses on
>   her A500... she and her roommate are going to share a printer next
>   semester.)
    
    Add 2MB of RAM to your A2091 disk controller.  It uses 4x256 CMOS DRAM
    chips (16 @ $6.00-6.50 each these days).  3MB (total) is just about
    optimal for an unaccelerated A2000.  It took me 15 minutes to install
    same in my son's A2000 a couple of weeks ago.  (Ground thyself!)
    
    While you're waiting for the printer, get a decent word processor.  I
    recommend ProWrite 3.2 (there are patches available online to bring it
    up to 3.2.2, making good on New Horison's promise of "bug-free"
    software).  ProWrite 3.2 includes PostScript support (formerly a
    separately-priced option), which means you can create PostScript files
    to upload to your system at work for printing.  (Of course, such files
    are "business related", right? 8^)

Not to steer anyone away from an A2000HD, but if you are really planning
on ever upgrading the system, you might want to start with a "low-end" A3000.

The "low-end" A3000 comes with 2M or RAM, the same 50Meg hard drive,
the built in de-interlacer, **and** a 16Mhz 68030/88x, which is approximately
8x faster than the stock A2000.  It also has the 2M Agnus, and the 
rest of the enhanced chipset.

It's listed for $1800, and the extras are easily worth the $500.  The only
drawbacks I see are potentially less slots, and not being able to accomodate
the Video Toaster.  If I were buying a new Amiga, that's what I would
get.  Actually, I'd prefer a portable but that still vaporware...    

Steve

    Thanks to all and sundry! I was planning to wait until after Christmas
    to buy it...maybe I shouldn't wait!

    Let's see..."OK, dear, this is SUCH a good deal we CAN'T wait...they
    might be all gone by tomorrow night!"  :)

    Ideas and recommendations still welcome!

    Thanks, again!

    jb

    I don't know that I'd let the non-toaster aspect stop me from buying an
    A3000 new.  There are two problems (correct if I'm wrong):
    
    	1) Size -- The card is too big
    
    		Workaround: A notch can be cut.  I don't think I'd enjoy 
    		doing this BUT I don't think I'd enjoy buying an A2000
    		when the A3000 was so close in price and had more goodies.
    
    	2) Denise -- The ECS Denise doesn't work with the Toaster software
    
    		The new Toaster Software Version 2 is supposed to correct
    		this so your down to the size issue.
    
    Another consideration; besides simply being a new and neat case, the 
    A3000 sports the Zorro III Bus Arch which you won't be able to use in
    the A2000 if anyone ever comes out with a Zorro III only.  AND (more
    importantly) the A3000 has a full 32 bit bus.  The A2000 is 16 bit and
    if you upgrade the processor to an 020 or 030, the only 32 bit wide 
    memory will be on the card.
    
    The only consideration not in favor of upgrading is that you have no
    68000 and, as such, some games might not work.  I don't find this
    threat all that bad though as you can:
    
    	1) Zkick-load Kickstart V1.3 thanks to your MMU
    
    		and
    
    	2) The list of non-A3000, non-AmigaOS V2.04 compliant games is
    	   pretty small.  This from having compared what I have against the
    	   prospect of upgrading to V2.04 .. in essence all that I forsee
    	   losing (ie. won't run at all) is ``Gauntlet II''.
    
    Anywho, food for thought,
    
    George
    

    Call Paragon at (719) 548 8803.  They install Toasters in 3000's and
    warranty them for the same time as Newtek.
    
    Paragon, for all its management faults, has an excellent tech team. 
    Tell 'em Mike Bell sent ya!   ;-)
    
    Mike

    ��� Funny you should mention Paragon!  That's where I saw the deal
    and began my search! That is also where I'll probably buy it!

    I'll tell 'em ya sent me, Mike! Thanks!

    (Any other quirks about Paragon?...Send mail off-line if you'd like!)  

    John B.

    Well...more information to cloud my mind...

    I had the price wrong on the BridgeBoard (the memory is the first to
    go...)

    Here's what I found out:

    A2000HD  $1299 - 1950 monitor $650 - BridgeBoard $499  total  ~$2450
    A3000    $2399 - 1950 monitor "free"-BridgeBoard $499  total  ~$2900

    So... my better half (!) reminded me that DEC had a holiday special
    on the 316sx package ("...but that's NOT an AMIGA, dear!!!!")

    The 316sx comes with 2 mb RAM, 16MHz (7.13 Mhz for the 2000 and 16 for
    the 3000), a 52 mb hard drive and a VGA monitor. For $1200.

    Half the price, she said. 

    Now, intuitively, I like the Amiga better,  but can anyone out there
    help me explain how the A2000HD is a better deal when the 316sx has
    about the same hard drive capacity, twice the RAM, is more than twice
    as fast, and comes WITH a VGA monitor?

   ( > I _knowed_ I shoulda stayed a truck driver! < )

    Regards!

    John B.

    I bought my A2000 with harddrive 2 years ago because at the time it was
    the best system (and as far as an OS gooes still is) available. I just
    couldn't see not buying a multitasking operating system. 
    
    Last month I ordered and received a 486 system but I still use the
    Amiga for downloading and terminal emulation. Software is very
    available for the MessyDOS systems but the quality of the freely
    distributable software goes to the Amiga. 
    
    I never got into programming the Amiga (wish that I had). I use it to
    download while I do other things (I haven't tried this under windows
    but I am very sure it won't work as good as the Amiga). 
    
    Some concrete things - The Amiga has the ability to Emulate the IBM PC
    as well as the Macintosh - can't do that with a 386sx. 
    
    Also, look for a note by Ed Acciardi about 5 months ago - He bought a
    486(?) and is using it now. He was and is an Amiga owner that gave a
    very good list of Pros and Cons on both sides of the issue.
    
    It comes down to what do you want to use the system for? Amigas have no
    equal for video applications for the price. If you want to do
    spreadsheets and things typical of the PC world you won't beat the
    price of a 386 nowadays. 
    
    I still like my Amiga. I wish it had caught on like it deserved to. 
    
    John

    I'd say go 3000/16.  Right there you're faster than a 386sx because the
    data paths are all 32 bit, and you can always plug in an 040 later if
    you're really looking for 22.5 MIPS (everyone see the GVP ads...!).
    
    Because you can't buy both systems (I'm assuming) I'd go for the Amiga
    because it is multitasking.
    
    Also, the hard drive in the 3000 is 11 ms seek time and DMA, which
    you'd have to pay more for in the 386sx system.
    
    Mike

    Re .11:
    
>   Here's what I found out:

>   A2000HD  $1299 - 1950 monitor $650 - BridgeBoard $499  total  ~$2450
    
    Unless you buy a display enhancer board (or plan to later), there's no
    reason to buy the 1950 monitor instead of the $300 1084S.
    
>   A3000    $2399 - 1950 monitor "free"-BridgeBoard $499  total  ~$2900
    
    If the 1950 monitor is "bundled", then fine.   Otherwise get a VGA
    monitor for about $325.

>   So... my better half (!) reminded me that DEC had a holiday special
>   on the 316sx package ("...but that's NOT an AMIGA, dear!!!!")
>                                                              
>   The 316sx comes with 2 mb RAM, 16MHz (7.13 Mhz for the 2000 and 16 for
>   the 3000), a 52 mb hard drive and a VGA monitor. For $1200.

    Let's try to put the comparison on a level playing field, shall we? 
    Intel CPUs don't get as much work done per MHz as Motorola CPUs do. 
    Add to that the offloading afforded by the Amiga's custom chips and the
    usable CPU power is quite comparable (a 16MHz 80386SX will have the
    advantage on CPU-intensive work like CAD, DTP, and spreadsheet
    recalculations -- most systems are ACTUALLY constrained by disk I/O
    speeds, so the difference doesn't count as much).
    
    If you want a decent GUI, you'll have to buy Windows 3.0 for the PC
    (AmigaDOS' Workbench is included at no extra charge, though the upgrade
    to V2.04 will cost about $100) and you'll INSTANTLY make two important
    discoveries:
    
    1.	You need at least 2MB more memory (twice that would be better) in
    	order to get reasonable execution of multiple applications, even
    	if only one is active at a time.  RAM costs $40-50/MB these days.
    
    2.	MS Windows provides only the ILLUSION of multitasking.  If you're
    	used to a workstation environment, where you can move among several
    	windows while the applications therein continue to run, you'll be
    	VERY disappointed with your performance.
    
    	A common activity in the Amiga world is to have one window open to
    	a communications program for file transfers to/from a remote system,
    	a second window in which a shell or file-management utility is
    	[de]compressing archive files, and a third window in which the user
    	is doing "real work", such as editing a file.
    
    	AmigaDOS' true multitasking makes it possible for ALL of this to
    	happen without killing responsiveness to the user.
    
    	MS Windows' near-multitasking requires EACH of its applications to be
    	"well-behaved" in order to assure ANY processor cycles will be
    	available for any others.
    
>   Half the price, she said. 
>
>   Now, intuitively, I like the Amiga better,  but can anyone out there
>   help me explain how the A2000HD is a better deal when the 316sx has
>   about the same hard drive capacity, twice the RAM, is more than twice
>   as fast, and comes WITH a VGA monitor?
    
    As pointed out above, the 386SX is NOT twice as fast.  It also can't do
    the same amount of work in 2MB that a stock A2000 can in 1MB (though
    both should be given additional RAM to bring them into balance).  It
    also lacks sound capabilities, though that might not matter to you.
    
    Once you start adding up the pieces, the 386SX costs closer to $1500. 
    The A2000HD/P, 2MB additional RAM and a 1084S monitor are about $1800. 
    If the best price you could find on a BridgeBoard was $499, you weren't
    trying very hard.  That's list price -- I've seen dealer prices as low
    as $200.  Call Safe Harbors for a mail-order price.
    
    The bottom line is that you CAN buy an 80386SX system for less than an
    A2000 (though not HALF the price), but you can't play the numbers game
    to compare what you have when you do.  I'd MUCH rather have the A2000,
    with lots of room for growth (including CPU accelerators, up to 6
    additional SCSI drives, up to 8MB additional memory, both MS-DOS and
    Macintosh emulation, plus room for more serial or parallel ports) than
    settle for less.
    
    There are a number of cases where applications force people to use one
    system or another (ask Ed Acciardi); for my own use, though, I can be
    more selective about HOW the system meets my needs.
    
    A *lot* of people have chosen to buy MS-DOS machines.  Many defend
    their choices, usually based on price or pervasiveness.  Few defend
    MS-DOS on its merits.  Why do you suppose that is the case?

    John,
    The cost of hardware (for the most part is a one time cost).  How much
    is the cost of the SOFTWARE which your hardware is worthless without? 
    How much does it cost to buy the paint programs and etc for the IBM. 
    Also lets compare Apples to Apples and Clones to Clones!  Take the cost
    of the IBM and add the card for speech, extra serial and parallel
    stuff, include windows and memory to actually do a lot of useful work
    (3MB on the Amiga and closer to 11MB on the IBM).  Make certain that
    the software isn't being pirated by your dealer (yes they do!).  And
    add the extra time it will take you to program around segmented
    archetechtures (it is why the software costs so much).  Add up the REAL
    costs of owning your machine.  Resale value on an Clone anything, cost
    to your country for supporting the Korean and Japenese markest who
    STOLE the copyrights and patents from USA companies [we work for a USA
    company at risk for just such things ourselves]) (While I admit freely
    to being a patriot and a zealous one at that, I really do think this IS
    important!)
    
    Add up the TOTAL costs.  And see how cheap an Amiga is.  If all you
    need to do is run software designed to run on an Intel chip, then get
    a board which supports criminal archetechture (segmentation).
    
    If you are a computer scientist and want an environment which is
    conducive to you maintaining your training and experiance, easy to use
    and easy to understand, then choose the machine which supports those
    capabilities.
    
    Example.  Do you want a digitizer?  If so, then you would have to have
    waited 3 years and spent 200 dollars more for a black and white video
    digitizer if you owned an Intel machine over an Amiga.  To go to color,
    you have to spend 400 dollars more than on an Amiga and it ONLY works
    with VERY expensive cameras.
    
    Save your money.  Don't listen to people who don't know how to compare
    the products unless they compare only the sticker price!  Make the
    comparrison on the machine.
    
    Clark
    

    re: .14 and .15

    Bill and Clark,

    Thanks to BOTH of you for your comments! 
    Now to get through the Christmas rush, shopping, kidlings, eating, etc!

    (Not buying, yet, but now MUCH better informed! (I am also beginning
    to understand why, when asked to compare the 386* machines with
    the A2000HD, _every_ salesperson I talked to said, in effect, "Well,
    I don't know much about Amigas, so I really can't help you compare...")

    Thanks, again!

    John B.

    John, since you've been dealing with Paragon, go in and ask Jon to give
    you a comparison of IBMs/Amigas, and Macs/Amigas.  He's had experience
    selling all three, and also has some interesting product cost data
    (non-disclosable) that really puts Mac in its place.
    
    Mike

Just a note that might be of interest to perspective Amiga buyers. I called
DECdirect and got an employee price quote on the PC4XV-B2, which is the
multi-synch monitor we sell with our Tandy PC's. I believe that the monitor
is actually made by Panasonic. Anyway, the employee price is $438. That's
a pretty decent price for a multi-synch monitor. I have one I use here at
work, and it seems quite nice. I have not tried one on an Amiga, but it
should work just fine.

Frank Ries

    re: PC4XV-B2
    
    I believe this is the model I tried to use on my A3000 at work.  It
    "sorta" works, but both units I tested had problems maintaining a
    steady display.  The whole screen would jiggle from side to side,
    sometimes vibrating rapidly for several seconds.  Made it very hard
    to use.  I'm now using an old NEC monitor without problems...