Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    
    I'd expect Commodore to stop producing the 64 and 128 models within
    two years.  They've made it clear again and again that the future
    is the Amiga.
    
    Besides, the 500 really isn't a heck of a lot more expensive.
    
    Ed.

    Since the 500 isn't much more expensive than the 128, it's a MUCH
    better idea to go with the Amiga.  After all, you get more memory,
    more features, better graphics, and a better future.  What more
    can you ask for?  The decision should be easy.
    
      (Also, I don't know how good they are, but there are 64 emulators
    for the Amiga)
    
     - Chris
    

Currently, the 64 emulators are not very good but are improving. Another
    consideration is that thru third party you can buy a device that
    will allow a couple of 2000, periphs. including bridgecard (IBM
    compatability.) plus the capability of 9 megs??? the 500 is clearly
    the choice!!!!
    

    Thanks for the initial replies; I myself would prefer the
    expandability and better future of the 500; however, I'm sure my
    brother-in-law is going to look at what software he can buy *now*
    for his kids to use.  I've seen a few ads for Amiga educational
    software in magazines, but don't have a good feel for how much there
    is available, compared to the 128 which has been around for a quite
    a while.

    The C128 runs at either 1 MHz in 64 mode or 2 MHz in 128 mode. Although
    its a "128 Kbyte" machine, it can only address 64K in the C64 mode.
    It offers an additional mode called CP/M (see Computer Museum archives
    for more info on CP/M).
    
    The Amiga on the other hand runs at 7+ MHz and can be easily modified
    to run much faster with the addition of optional 680xx processors.
    The Amiga can also run a variety of IBM-PC software using the
    Transformer V1.2.
    
    I sold my 128 for an Amiga. My brother did the same.
    
    

     >>1736.2    
          >> What more
          >>can you ask for?  
     
     Software!  I love my Amiga 500, and I agree that the future is Amiga,
     the price is equivalent etc. Unfortunately, if the purchase is made
     primarily for kids use now, I am afraid there isn't much Amiga kids
     software around. I think there is sufficient "real" software for most
     adult users, and believe in the adage "Who needs 20 different word
     processors/spreadsheets/terminal emulators anyway?" Unfortunately,
     there is not much for kids. 
     
     What is available is expensive (compared to C=64/128, atari, MAC or
     IBM), and I have found it to be mediocre. To be fair, it is not
     necessarily more expensive than MAC or IBM, but lets face it, many of
     the companies put out the same software for C=64/128 and Atari @ $20,
     IBM,  MAC  and AMIGA @ $35. They often don't improve the software for
     the Amiga, MAC or the IBM (make it worse? ;-}), they just charge more. 

     Just to make it clear, I am talking about software for young kids,
     where reading, spelling, writing, logic, & arithmetic are the issue.
     The development time in these is in the interface and logic of the
     tasks, not the smoothness of animation, number of options etc.   
     Since older kids, jr high and up, can use quality "adult" software,
     there should be less of a problem for them. I have seen SAT tutoring
     programs.
     
     >> (Also, I don't know how good they are, but there are 64 emulators
     >>for the Amiga)                                        
       
     If these really work it could make a significant difference in the
     decision.  What I have read is that they are VERY slow. Another
     possibility is the transformer (for IBM emulation) 
     which I believe is also slow. Both of these methods require 
     additional purchase of a 5 1/4" drive, however.
     
     Sadly, I suggest the purchaser look at the available kids software at
     a good Amiga dealer, such as the Memory Location in Wellesley Ma. or
     look up the list in an Amiga magazine (or a mail order  advert. in
     Amiga World) and see if there is enough of what he/she wants. 
     
     It is NOT a clear cut decision when it comes to kids. This is a
     classic reason for wanting everyone to buy an Amiga; so that
     the kids' software companies will support it.
     
     Hoping the Christmas season will bring more Amiga kids' software,
     Dave
     
                                            

    .5:
    
    Comparing clock speeds between an 8 bit 6502 and 16 bit 68000 is
    almost completely meaningless.  It is fair to say that the 7+ MHz
    68000 is probably going to get more work done than a 2 MHz 6502,
    but it probably isn't going to be an overall factor of 3.5.  In
    particular, the comparison of clock speeds doesn't take into account
    how many clock cycles either of the two processors needs to "do
    anything useful" (like fetch something from memory, access an internal
    register, etc), nor does it take into account what the CPUs will
    do with that data, and how much at one time (8 vs 16 bits).
    
    If, for instance, the application called for doing very simple
    manipulation to 8 bit pieces of data, you might find the 2 MHz 6502
    running at throughputs very comparable to the 7+ MHz 68000, because
    that's what 6502s are good for.

    re: .0
    
    I believe that should be 128D, not 128B.  That is the high end of
    the Commodore 8 bit world.  Assuming the price for the C128D
    and the A500 is roughly the same, the issue seems to be the volume
    and price of the software for kids.
    
    Seems to me that the best approach would be to get a C64, disk drive,
    and an Amiga monitor (RGB/composite).  After all, how much of that
    educational software takes advantage of the C128?  Then get an
    A500 when the kid gets old enough to want more.  Or you can save
    a bundle if the kid decides he/she hates computers :-)
    
    -Dave

    How old are your children???
    
        M.A.H
    

    	I don't agree about not enough educational software. I have
    a 5 and 8 yr old kids, and I'm always on the lookout for good
    software for them to use. I've found the First Byte series very
    good. They make good use of the Amiga's capability for graphics
    and speech, and are absolutely bulletproof, my kids have never
    crashed the machine when using them. The series includes math, spelling
    bee, recognizing shapes, word processing skills and others I can't
    remember right now. The only problem I see is that they are slow,
    but I doesn't matter to my kids.
    
    	Another is the Discovery series. I has geography, math and many
    others. I have the math, and my kids love it...it's based on a game
    in which the kids have to add, substract, multiply or divide before
    moving on to other sections of a spaceship. You can set up the level
    of difficulty at the beginning, so it can be adapted to your kids
    abilities. Graphics and sound are great, in fact, for those who
    know, it was programmed by the same author of Faery Tale. The only
    problem is that after you win, it's no longer interesting anymore.
    But it takes quite an effort to win, so it should provide plenty
    of hours of fun and learning.
    	I also remember a few months ago, it was either AmigaWorld
    or Amazing Computing, did a review of educational software. The
    review is useless, but the list of software, catalogued
    by themes would be very helpful so you can have an idea of what's
    available, and it was a rather long list. I'll try to remember it
    when I go back home, and list the magazine. I can even make photocopies
    and send interoffice if you can't get it in the States.
    
    Miguel A. Alvarez

    	As I promised in .10:
    
    	AmigaWorld November 1987 has a short article mentioning some
    of the educational software available. 
    
    	Amazing Computing Sept. 1988, has an educational software
    product guide, starting in page 51. 
    
    	I don't know about the 128, but it seems to me that most of what 
    your friend would need is already available for the Amiga.
    
    Miguel A. Alvarez

    I could see a buying 64 now and an Amiga later.  You can get a 64C
    and a drive for about $300.  At that price it's almost a throw-away.
    If it turns out that the kids aren't interested in or ready for a
    computer, you wouldn't have wasted much money by buying one.  On the
    other hand, if you or the kids really become interested in computers,
    you can go on and buy a dream machine - an Amiga, of course - without
    having to worry about losing what you put into the first machine. 

    The 64 is still a viable machine, notwithstanding Commodore's
    intentions.  If your brother decided not to go ahead with the fancy
    machine, he'd still have a machine that his family could do word
    processing, spreadsheets, databases, etc, on, albeit in a modest
    manner. 

    The trick is not to spend a lot upgrading the 64.  If you find that 
    you need more computing power, go right to the Amiga.  

    - Cliff

    I have a bit of experience with C=64, 128 and Amiga.  My mother
    bought her first C=64 for about $400 (for the CPU alone!) in mid-'83.
    She started off with one of those nasty Datasette tape drives because
    she couldn't afford to shell out another $400 for a 1541 disk drive
    at the time, even if there had been any available.  Eventually,
    she did get a disk drive and a second C=64.  Later she sold one
    of her C=64's and used the money to buy a 128 with a 1571.  Shortly
    after this (mid-'86), I bought my A1000.  Earlier this year, I bought
    a C=64 from a friend for next to nothing.
    
    My mother uses her 128 for word processing and spreadsheets to keep
    track of their real estate rentals.  She is very happy with it for
    those purposes, but laments about the fact that there are really
    very few programs which are written to take full advantage of all
    of the capabilities of the 128 in 128 mode.  Most software is written
    for the 64, which means that the 128 operates EXACTLY like a C=64,
    meaning that none of the keypad keys are available, etc., and the
    1571 runs in 1541 mode.  This is wonderful, except why bother to
    have all of the extra hardware and features of the 128 if you're
    not really going to use them?  The 128D model has the GEOS operating
    system built into it which is a fairly decent attempt to set up
    an icon-driven environment using 8-bit architecture, but it really
    seems primitive compared to what the Amiga has to offer.
    
    I would also echo the sentiments of (-.1).  My recommendation would
    be to buy a used C=64, because you can get them for a song these
    days.  There is an incredible amount of pd educational stuff out
    there for the C=64; I know, because I was the disk librarian for
    the local Commodore user's group in Colorado Springs, CO.  It would
    be much smarter to put out a small amount of money for the equipment
    and find out if your kids are really interested first.  Young kids
    sometimes have a short attention span.  If this is the case, you
    could end up paying a healthy amount of money for dust collectors.
    
    On the other hand, if your kids really get into computing, the C=64
    is not a bad machine to start with.  If you decide to upgrade to
    an AMIGA at a later date, running on a C=64 for a while will only
    make you appreciate the AMIGA's features even more.  Eventually,
    I think that there will be some wonderful children's stuff available
    on the AMIGA.  Right now, though, there is much more available for
    the C=64.
    
    If you are planning to use the system yourself and want to buy
    something that your kids can use as well, the A500 gives you more
    features with newer technology and a better expansion path than
    the 128 for pretty close to the same price.
    
    There are a lot of people around the country who have bought home 
    computers over the past 5 years.  Of all of these millions of computer 
    owners, many had an early interest in their system but now have it 
    packed away or in a corner somewhere gathering dust because it is used 
    so seldom.  The percentage of people who have maintained a high level 
    of interest in their systems is probably fairly low.  Most of the
    AMIGA owners I know started with an 8-bit machine and used it for
    a couple of years before they outgrew it and upgraded.  It is a
    shame to see ANY computer underutilized, but it is a CRIME with
    the AMIGA!
    
    Dave

    
    Actually, given the level of compatibility between the C64/C128
    and the Amiga (none at all), how about that other Jay Miner
    creation - the Atari 8 bit computers?
    
    I believe a usable system is priced lower than the equivalent 64C,
    has a disk drive interface that runs at a reasonable speed, and
    a real basic (not just lots of peeks/pokes).  There is more software
    available for the 64C, but for a useful system at minimal cost...
    
    The XEGS has a 64K, a detachable keyboard, light gun, games, nice
    friendly pastel buttons for $149.
    
    The 65XE (64K) is under $100 and the 130XE (128K) is about $139.
    
    Lots of educational software available direct from Atari (they seem
    to have warehouses full of the stuff)
    
    -Dave
    p.s. I still use my Atari 400 48K, I just don't use it often :-)

        I'll throw my two cents in also.  A good point was raised in
    -1.  If <the prospective buyer's> kids would like to do some
    BASIC programming, they may have a tough time.  The PEEKS and POKES
    can be painful to a novice.  Lots of funny things have to be done
    just to draw a line or make a sound.  Of course there is Simons
    Basic, which is a pretty good (structured) BASIC.  

         I used a C-64 in high school and college, and it is
    a nice little machine.  I progressed through BASIC, 6502 ML, and
    Pascal without any difficulties, but for a youngster it may be tough.

         If they just want to use educational software, games, it would
    probably be perfect.      

    We had an Atari 400, too.  It was a nice machine.  I even cobbled a
    real keyboard onto it.  When we went out looking for a machine for
    the kids, it turned into a choice between another Atari - a machine I
    liked and was familiar with - and a C64.  (Apples were too pricy for
    a machine that wasn't significantly better than a 64.)  We bought the
    64 because we couldn't find enough software for the Atari.  The fact
    that you could get programs for the 64 on sale at Lechmeres and
    Toys-R-Us for about $10 a pop was a big selling point.  But maybe we
    weren't looking in the right places. 

    I agree with the comments in .-1 about Basic.  Someone (Dykstra?)
    said that teaching a child Basic should be a felony.  I don't know
    about that, but making a kid use C64 Basic probably qualifies as
    child abuse.  It's awful!  Fortunately we're beyond the point when
    computer literacy was equated with Basic programming. 

    - Cliff

I have owned both a VIC and a C64 and liked both very much - for
what they offer.

I found the VIC a great machine to learn on. Not tooo complex, but not
a toy. The 64 was a natural progression from there. Providing more
complexity and more memory.

The one real missing link was a DOS of some form.  Doing OPENs INPUT#, and
CLOSEs just to get the disk error was a real pain! And very inconsistant
with what the schools typically use (Apple, Atari whatever).

Most ALL *real* computers these days provide easy access to disk storage, 
the C64 and VIC were not user friendly in this respect (may have changed
with new SW since I had them...)

The keyboards are not standard either. I find typing on my roomates a real
challenge!

The C64 does have a wealth of *good* software (good as it gets for 8bit)

Don't get me wrong, they are both good (c64=great) machines. However, I think
for the same price range, you can get a system more in tune with the times.


John

    re: .17
    �The one real missing link was a DOS of some form.  Doing OPENs INPUT#, and
�CLOSEs just to get the disk error was a real pain! And very inconsistant
�with what the schools typically use (Apple, Atari whatever).
�
�Most ALL *real* computers these days provide easy access to disk storage, 
�the C64 and VIC were not user friendly in this respect (may have changed
�with new SW since I had them...)
           
    There never was a DOS on the C64 but there were several shells
    available, the ones I used most were LASER BASIC from Ocean IQ which
    was just an extended basic but added several extra commands to allow
    you direct access to the disk etc. (e.g. DIR). The most DOS like
    shell I had was the one that came with the C compiler I had, SUPER-C
    (Abacus I think), it ran just like a DOS with it's own command set
    including a PRINT command to send your files to the printer even!!
    I was just getting used to the SUPER-C shell when my C64 went legs
    up and I bought Amy.
    
    				Alan T.

    	Looking for a Flyback transformer for Magnavox monitor
    	model number CM8762074G . The part number of the 
    	flyback transformer is AT2079 i think .
    
    	thank you
    
    	frank Bernal