Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    I'm very interested - I tried to mail one of the people in the original
    posting but never got a reply - probably went into the bit bucket.
    
    I live in Munich, Germany - I wonder if they would send one here
    (just the card, no cabinet etc.)? The cost shouldn't be too high
    (how big is the card?). Could probably be sent in a thick padded
    envelope.
    
    I assume any XT type HD controller should work - is that correct?
    Is there any reason why RLL drives (like the ST238) wouldn't work?
    Could the ST251 be also used? (At least over here, the ST251 offers
    the most megabytes per buck - excuse me, per DM). Miniscribe isn't
    very common here.
    
    Does the formatting SW allow some sort of disk partitioning?
    
    I'd be forever grateful if you can find out... thanks.
    

RE .0
	Just a couple of quick questions before I put one of these on my
Christmas list.

	You mentioned that it doesn't pass the bus. Will it work ok if the 
bus is passed to it through a Starboard II?
	Does it autoconfigure?
	Are there any problems with which device powers up or down first, the
drive or the Amiga?  ( I'm only asking as I want no responsibility for the
results of this test as there has been hardware in the past on the bus with
private power supplies that eat Amiga's. )

Dick

    To answer some of the questions so far:
    
    	- last time I talked to them I was told that they don't support
    RLL controllers, I don't know why but I'll ask and post the answer.
    	- they should be able to ship anywhere but I check to make sure,
    but they still require the money up front which is $175 (club price)
    or $185 in CDN dollars.
    	- the WEDGE board is about 2" high and 5-6" long with the female
    buss connector mounted on the face and fingers along the bottom
    to plug into a connector block that connects it to the disk controller.
    So if you purchase just the WEDGE it includes the single board,
    a 2 slot connector block and a disk for software.
	- I currently use this system with a Starboard II without any
    problems and I have been told that they have used it with an Insider
    without problems.  The WEDGE and (I think) Disk Controller are powered
    from the Amiga.  The WEDGE itself contains only 5 IC's for signal
    conditioning (I think) so the power requirements appear low.  One
    of the things that they are working toward is a selfpowered cage
    affair that will allow mounting of other IBM peripherals (such as
    a tape system), once this is available you would just change a couple
    of jumpers on the WEDGE board so that it will draw power from the
    cage.
    	- the disk does not autoconfigure, you have to MOUNT DH0: it.
    	- to partition it into multiple DH drives, you place a description
    into the mountlist for each DH and indicate the cylinder range eg:
    for DH0: you would define Lowcyl=0, Hicyl=100
    for DH1: you could define Lowcyl=101, Hicyl=305
    on an RD51 (like mine) this would give you a 3.3mb DH0 and a 6.6mb
    DH1 from the same drive.
    	- on the next release of the drive (sometime this week maybe)
    they plan to handle bad block by doing bad block replacement from
    reserved tracks, I beleive that they plan to require the first four
    tracks to be reserved to do this.
    
    
    
    I'll post more information as I talk to them and answer your questions.
    
    
    
    							wayne
    

    Does anyone know whether this will work on DEC hard drives? This
    may be a dumb question but I know nothing about this subject!!!
    
    

    I think as long as you use a RD5* disk drive it should work.  Those
    drives are compatable with the Seagate drives.  I think they even
    are made by seagate.
    				Rob

Assuming I already have the disk, whats the cheapest way to put
a hard disk on the Amiga 500? (You've never swapped disks until you've
owned a single drive Amiga!)

John

    
    Could someone knowledgable in the area of hard disks give us a run
    down of the various types/technologies and their relationship
    to the amiga?
    
    A brief description of various terms would also be helpful (SCSI,
    ST-506, RLL, etc).  I know this is a lot to ask, but I'm hoping someone
    out there knows everything there is to know about hard disks and would
    be willing to share the information.  You might want to make a new note
    topic for this so that people can find it in the future. 
    
    I have an A1000 with a Starboard II.  (I understand I can get a SCSI
    card for the starboard relatively cheap.  If anyone has one, I'd like
    to hear from you about how it works. ANT::SMCAFEE).  I also am interested
    in DEC drives and how I might connect them to my amiga. 
    
    regards,
    
    steve mcafee

Controllers:

Typically, I have seen mostly SCSI host controllers for the AMIGA.  The
SCSI controller connects to either the 86 pin expansion port, a Zorro slot,
whatever.  Several methods are available.  With the controller card, comes
the software to drive the card.  These should be bought together to ensure
compatability and usually the software is shipped with the SCSI controller.

Once you have the controller and the software, you can now start plugging in
SCSI devices.  This is where it can get confusing.  The SCSI bus is a
50 pin bus.  The modified SCSI bus used by apple/Mac, C-Ltd, etc has a
25 pin DB-25 connector on the controller end and a 50 pin centronics
style connector on the other (drive) end.  This setup makes it nice, since
you can use the length cable you desire (up to 19 feet).

I would recommend controllers from Phoenix Electronics (PHD-500) or from
C-Ltd.  I have both and found both to be very acceptable.  My system drive
runs off the Phoenix controller.  I don't know if Supra will unbundle their
system.

I started another note a while back where I intend to put the results of
all this fooling around with hard drives.  It is do-able to roll your own.
The biggest part is finding a power supply for the drive.  I finally found one
that puts out 5A at 5v  and 4A at 12v for 19.00.  Works great!



DRIVES:

This is where some of the confusion comes in.  You have a SCSI bus and it
expects to connect to a SCSI device.  By the way SCSI (Small Computer System 
Interface) is just a bus/protocol standard. 

If you purchase the drive and it says that it will connect to a SCSI bus,
has the proper connector on the back, etc., you could have one of the
following configurations.  Note that they all essentially look the same to the
controller.  The different sizes, number of heads, sectors, tracks, is entered
into the mountlist for the device.

SCSI - device could be a "true" SCSI device, where the SCSI interface and
       drive formatter/read-write/seek electronics are on one board.

ST-506 - A different type of interface standard.  Many drives on the market
       used on the Amigas are ST-506 drives with a SCSI to ST-506 adaptor
       board also on the drive.

MFM - A type of recording technique.  The RDxx drives are MFM certified.
      This essentially gives 16 to 18 sectors per track.

RLL - A denser recording technique than MFM.  This will give you 26
      sectors per track.  You can get an RDxx drive to work with RLL
      but is not recommended.  I found a great deal of blocks mapped out as
      bad.


To use an RDxx drive on the SCSI bus, you need the adapter mentioned above.
The adaptors widely available are made by Adaptec.  The MFM model is
the A4000,  the RLL model is the A4070.

The easiest RDxx drive to fool with initially is the RD31 or Seagate ST225.

The Seagate ST-225N (not used by DEC) has a SCSI controller built in.



Hope this helps.  I just started messing with this stuff so I'm still
learning also  8^) .



-john-

SCSI or ST506  (or ESDI for that matter). It dosen't matter to me :-)

But, where can I get one of these things relatively cheap (under $200?)


BTW, (being from the BUYOUT group - where all DEC RDxx drives come from, 
I've seen  ESDI (Enhanced Small Disk Interface) driver, using RLL 2-7 code
put 50 sectors/track!

try a 765 MegaByte 5�" full height. 18Ms ave. access, 15 Mbit transfer rate
and you'll beat an RA82!!!

    Can anyone give me details about a RD31-a or a RD31-bd, including
    the size and whats in it? Does it include a conroller? And most
    importantly, will the WEDGE work with it??? Maybe all I need is
    to know its commercial equivilant, so I can call the WEDGE folks
    directly.
    
    I'm not as well versed on this subject as some of you, and have read
    all of these notes but am still in the dark. So, please, no "RTFM"
    comments.... somehow ":^)" doesn't always work for me! Thanks for your
    time. 
    
    			Tom
    

    The RD31 is a 20 MB 4 head disk.  It is in reality a Seagate ST-225.
     This drive contains an ST-506 controller.  This should not be confused
    with the Seagate ST-225N which has a built in SCSI controller.
    
    -john-
    

    RE: .9
    
    You can get the following components from  C.A. Wholesale SUpply,
    P.O. Box 503,  Derby, Kansas  67037.  (316)685-6862.
    
    SCSI-500	SCSI Host controller for A500		179.95
    SCSI-1000	 "    "       "       "  A1000	 	229.95
    SCSI-2000	 "    "       "       "  A2000		149.95
    
    Will control 6 SCSI Devices and 2 ST-506/412 type hard drives
    Includes SCSIDOS 2.01 (Hard Drive Handler)
    Format utilities, PD software, Manual, Etc.
    
    I highly recomment the C-LTD controller, due to it's expandability.
    It will support WORM drives, Streaming Tape, Removable Hard drives,
    Whatever.  It passes the bus and can auto-configure.  Supports both
    conventional SCSI bus (50 pin) and APPLE/MAC Pseudo SCSI bus (25
    pin).
    
    
    ACB-4000	SCSI to ST506/412(MFM) Device Controller	119.95
    
    You need this card to use an RDxx style drive on a SCSI bus.  This
    card will support 2 drives of any size.
    
    
    Power supply capable of supplying 3.5A @ 12v  2A @ 5V for disk drive
    and device controller.   Can get an excellent power supply from
    JAMECO Electronics for $20.
    
    
    
    
    I'm currently on line with a 20 meg and a 67 meg drive.  I am using
    both the Phoenix PHD-500 controller and the C-LTD controller.  The
    C-LTD is more versatile,  The Phoenix is easier to set up and buffers
    the 86 pin bus.
    
    
    By the way, would anyone like a schematic to buffer the 86 pin bus
    to prevent anything hapening to the AMIGA while developing hardware?
    Sure does give peace of mind and only costs $10 to build.  If so,
    I'll post an IFF drawing.
    
    
    -john-
    
    

    
    .-1;
    
    If I have an RDxx drive (like an RD52) and purchase the SCSI-500
    and the ACB-4000 is there someway to enclose/power the RD52? The
    desktop enclosure provides both power and a box for the drive. You
    mentioned a power supply, do you also need a box?
    
    What's a 20 meg SCSI drive doing for? Should I just by it instead
    of the additional $120.00 for the ST506 adapter?
    
    It sure would be nice to have a hard disk on this beast!
    
    Thanks,
    Ray
    

RE .11

RD31 doesn't come with a controller. It is an ST-506 drive 
(non-intelligent drive/interface).

(Discalimer: I'm not sure about the DEC variation (ie rd31-xx) as far
 as including a controller - for uVAX or VAXmate - so a particular variation
 may contain a controller for one of these systems)

No RD drives have built in controllers.

John

    
    Thanks for all the info so far.  Does anyone have the SCSI card
    which is supposed to work with the Starboard?  What kind of drive
    do you have connected to it?
    
    regards,
    
    steve mcafee

    RE: .12
    
    Yes, please post the schmatic.  I have been hesitant to start hacking
    at the machine due to a fear of burning it out :-)
    
    Oh, and what is required to correctly display an IFF drawing?
    
    Thanks in advance.

    You need a utility like uShow or Show or ShowPrint.  All are PD
    or shareware.  I'll post the buffer schematic once I work out the
    bug with the PAL.  The buffer uses 74LS245 octal tri state buffers.
    
    Anyone out there have the algorythm for an autoconfigure PAL?
    
    -john-
    

    
    re: .15
    
    I called Microbotics yesterday afternoon.  The SCSI card hasn't
    been released yet.  They found a few bugs in the software and are
    working them out.  I was told they are not working on any hardware
    problems.  The person I spoke with said they had hoped to get this
    out by Christmas, but they refused to release it with buggy software
    so it would probably be more like three weeks.  He also said they
    are working closely with Adaptec to make certain that the two products
    work together!  Otherwise you can connect any standard MAC SCSI Hard
    disk to this creature.  I have no idea where the cable is going to
    come out of the amiga/Starboard, but he did say that one is provided.
    
    Oh well, if it is anything like the Starboard itself, it's probably
    worth waiting for...
    
    - steve mcafee

    Well, just a few more notes on this, since I just plunked down about
    $870 for a complete 40 meg system...
    
    Dave is a pretty good guy.  He called me (on his nickel) to talk
    about the system I wanted to buy.  I also had a lot of trouble getting
    to him via usenet.  Our "great" decwrl mailer had a lot of trouble.
    Finally, I remembered that some friends who mail to me come in through
    DECUAC, which connects to seismo/uunet...tried this path, and it
    got through.
    
    He said that what started as a hobby/sideline is turning into more
    of a full time bussiness...
    
    Prices as posted in the follow-up message (in US dollars this time;-)
    are (to me) pretty great...a 40 meg system case as mentioned here
    in the notes, etc.   $829, plus shipping ($35 in my case).  I still
    have to pay to clear customs (he guessed at 35-50 bucks), but for
    someone who doesn't feel like fooling around with hardware.......
    
    Anyway, sent in the check today, so keep tuned for progress/experiance.
    
    scott.
    

    
    With all the cheap disk talk lately, time to update...I was wondering
    when I would hear from Dave, since I sent the check in 3 wks
    ago...well, got home yesterday, and my little machine (telephone
    answering) had a message from the customs broker asking me to authorize
    clearance....So soon, very soon I too will become a HARD user...
    
    Again, I for one, think the $870 US (plus customs) is a great price
    for a COMPLETE system...box, PS, cables, controller, A1000 adapter,
    etc.  Plus, for me, the big advantage - I DON'T HAVE TO FUSS WITH IT!
                      
    Stay tuned...
    
    scott.

       Given that line drawings of the WEDGE leave much to the
       imagination, check out WEDGEPIC.ARC located in
       POLAR::AMIGA_PUBLIC: if you are curious as to what the setup really
       looks like.
       
       Included in the ARC are 4 "pictures" of the WEDGE as extracted
       from the disk Dave Allen supplies with the WEDGE itself.  Please
       read the README.DOC for credits, etc.
       
      
       Art
       
       p.s. this is a kermit arc so you will have to 'CVTARC U' it to
       extract the files to the VAX.
       

    re: -.1  unarcing and converting the pictures.
    
    Has anyone successfully gotten PostScript images using CVTARC, VMSSWEEP
    and CLAZ on their VAX?  If so, what's the recipe?
    
    Frustrated,
    Wes

       Dear Frustrated.
       
       Prior to posting the .arc into POLAR::AMIGA_PUBLIC, I did exactly
       what you outlined, except I use Dave Wecker's (I think it was
       Dave) VAXinated ARC program (VMSSWEEP suck's) to un'arc it.  I'll
       post it to the above directory if you don't have it.
       
       My process:
       
                CVTARC U WEDGEPIC.ARC XWEDGE.ARC
                ARC X XWEDGE
                CLAZ WEDGE1.PIC WEDGE1.PS
                CLAZ WEDGE2.PIC WEDGE2.PS
                etc
       
                I then sent the .ps file to the LPS40.
       
       Art
       

    Re: VAX ARC
    
    That did the trick!  Now the Wedge images come out fine.
    Many thanks.
    
    Frustrated no more,
    Wes

    further update...well last friday when I got home...there it was!
     As previously mentioned, the case for the drive is VERY nice..and
    big enough to go under AMY.  Carefully avoided static, put it all
    together, and using a copy of the disk, tried to boot...
    
    		Not a DOS disk....
    
    Ok, (I say to myself)...the directions on the disk say if this happens,
    just run the AmigaDOS FORMAT program...BUT Noooooooo...it just goes
    off the deep end...
    
    Well, try low level format (FMT)...works like a charm, but still
    FORMAT is NFG...well, try the PARK command...works...try DISKDOCTOR
    (I know...but I was desparate;-)...It worked!...read off all the
    cylniders just like they were set up in the mountlist...BUT...still
    no go on FORMAT...
    
    BUT I do have to say that so far, the support from canada has been
    pretty good...quick responses...they even DL'd a new version of
    the driver...but still so far..still sitting there waiting...
    
    So...they suggested I check out the controller/driv on a PC...(I
    know...a dirty word ;-)...so I'm going to try to format and use
    it on a vaxmate....
    
    ANY HELP OR IDEAS...I'll Listen...this has got us (on both ends
    stumped)
    
    stay tuned....

    well...chalk this one up to MURPHY, and stupidity...Seems that an
    IBM-PC buss is not symetricat...I should have guessed it...I had
    the connector that connects the two drives flipped 180...I had taken
    it all apart when I got it, looking at it, etc...Now, to be fair,
    on some systems it will only fit one way, but....
    
    Any way, bottom line is to make sure that the two slot connector
    faces the right way!
    
    Dave Allen, and Jim Brooks have been more than helpfull on this
    
    
    I'm EXTREMELY HAPPY!!!!...total investment under $900 US funds...and
    for that I have 40...count 'em 40 MEG of FAST Hard Disk! no muss,
    and only a little fuss...
            
    
    So...MURPHY tried to get me, but blid, dumb luck caused me to look
    over the connector, and notice a couple of traces that just seemed
    funny...
    
    
    So if your thing about getting some type of Hard drive...seriously
    consider this as a very viable alternative to the current crop of
    disk drives out there!
    
    scott.

       Another satisfied Wedge owner.
       
       Received my Wedge a few weeks ago; cabled it up as per the
       instructions (if you are ordering the Wedge to use with an RD,
       make sure you ask to have the cables included - makes life a whole
       lot simplier than having to source parts and build your own); ran
       through the formating and mounting procedures as per the
       accompanying docs; modifed the startup-sequence's slightly and
       away we went.  The setup has worked flawlessly ever since.
       
       Using Steve Drew's backup (thanks Steve) I have backed up the RD,
       re-partitioned it (still experimenting with the best setup), and
       retored the files with no problems at all.
       
       Add to all of this ARP and it is like I just purchased a new
       system.  
       
       The Wedge has my endorsement.
       
       Art