Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    TDI SUX.
    
    I wouldn't give those !@$%^ a dime.
    
    I bought the package, found out the minor details like WriteInt
    didn't work. I got my money back after a long argument with them.
    
    dov

    TDI's M2 compiler sucks when compared to something like Turbo
    Pascal|C|BASIC, but I've been using it for the best part of a year
    now, and find it to be satisfactory in *most* respects.  TDI, the
    company, however leaves *much* to be desired.  They had the nerve
    to charge me $60+ for the upgrade from 2.x to 3.0.  While it did
    provide some much needed bug fixes, and the price that I paid, did
    include a slightly improved manual, it was robbery at best.  They
    failed to deliver a completed product when they released 2.x.  Overall
    I'd give it a qualified 'yes' but only because in its current release,
    the compiler is sound, if a bit slow.  (The "integrated" editor
    that's included in the deal, is unfinished, and not worth the effort,
    however.)
    
    There are at present 2 other M2 alternatives that I'm aware of:
    Pecan software (??) has one that is somehow wedged into the UCSD
    environment.  I've heard some very lukewarm reviews about it.
    
    The other is much more exciting.  It was to be distributed by Oxxi,
    but according to the Usenet, its developer had a falling out with
    Oxxi and will now distribute it himself.  From the admittedly biased
    postings by its developer, it looks like a dream come true for M2
    lovers.  Fast compiles a la Turbo.  Fully operational Amiga-specific
    symbol files. (TDI has problems with some of its symbol files.)
    And a more integrated environment.  Could all be hogwash, since
    I don't recall reading many independant test reports.  The package
    was in a limited "beta test" distribution last I heard, and it was
    going to end up costing a small fortune when it goes into its official
    release. (~$400, I think. Can't remember.)  Hopefully the author
    will reconsider the price.
    
    Stubbornly refusing to use C,
    Gary 

    Thanks.  I had been under the impression that TDI was the best one.
    An add in November Amiga World for Oxxi M2 has the introductory
    price at $199, and then "benchmark add-on libraries" for $99 each.
                  
    
    The add lists three libraries:  one helps convert C code to M2,
    another claims to simplify some of the amiga functions like graphics,
    port handlig and sound, and another library is the "IFF and graphics
    image resource."
    
    It sounds nice.

    In the last issue of 'Amiga Magazin', a German Amiga rag, a Swiss
    company advertized a Modula compiler for the Amiga. They've been selling
    one for MS-DOS, IBM mainframes etc. for some time so that one might
    assume they know how to do one.
    
    I have the suspicion it's the original ETH compiler; the company
    selling it is in a suburb of Zurich, and they gave an E-Mail address
    which is on one of the ETH nodes.
    
    They also said they have a demo disk for DM 10,- (~$5) which I'm
    going to get. The compiler itself costs DM 300,- (~$160). They also
    advertise a symbolic debugger and lots of useful (?) library stuff.
    
    The ad itself doesn't say much about the compiler; just that it's
    a 'fast single-pass compiler' and a 'fast linker'.
    
    I agree that TDI Modula sucks. I, too, am still refusing to use C.

    I hear some dissatisfied TDI Modula-II customers.  I ditto .2 (the
    compiler is usable - but it and the company has no shortage of
    faults).  
    
    A friend of mine has the Avant-Grade Software Modula-II compiler.
    This is the one sold by Leon Frankel after his falling out with
    OxxI.  My friend says the package is very nice.  Leon tells me
    the current price is $299 which is a little more than I want to
    spend, but I'm still considering it.
    
    I hear that another Modula-II compiler for the Amiga is in the works.
    Of course, seeing is believing - I'll let you know any information
    I find out about it.
    
    Brad

    re .4: Well I mailed those people in Zurich to find out whether they
    have a dealer in Munich (they do). If anyone's interested in asking
    whether they sell in US, their mail address is below. The list price
    of the compiler here in DM 300,-.

    
        
From:	DECWRL::"aplusl%[email protected]" "A.+L. Meier Vogt  19-Oct-87 0117 PDT" 19-OCT-1987 09:19
To:	CIM International Engineering <dcc::jaervinen>
Subj:	RE: Amiga Modula-2

Demo-Diskette und Informationsmaterial gibt es in Muenchen bei Interplan-
Muhlert.
 
mfG
Albert Meier
 
========================================================================
Received: from [128.89.0.93] by decwrl.dec.com (5.54.4/4.7.34)
	id AA00270; Mon, 19 Oct 87 01:17:22 PDT
Received: from relay2.cs.net by RELAY.CS.NET id aa05183; 19 Oct 87 3:23 EDT
Received: from switzerland by RELAY.CS.NET id aa03106; 19 Oct 87 3:21 EDT
Received: from ean by SWITZERLAND.CSNET id a027633; 19 Oct 87 8:19 MET
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <246:[email protected]>

    saw this on usenet...for what its worth...
    
    
    Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga,comp.lang.modula2
Path: decwrl!labrea!jade!ucbvax!sdcsvax!ucsdhub!esosun!seismo!uunet!nuchat!sugar!schaub
Subject: M2Amiga, a new Modula-2 compiler
Posted: 29 Oct 87 23:48:18 GMT
Organization: Sugar Land UNIX - Houston, TX
Xref: decwrl comp.sys.amiga:10036 comp.lang.modula2:468
 
 
ANNOUNCEMENT:
 
        //    							        //
       //     M2Amiga						       //
   \\ //      A new single pass Modula-2 compiler for the Amiga    \\ //
    \X/ 							    \X/
 
M2Amiga the ultimate Modula-2 compiler for the Amiga is available now!  This
compiler is derived directly from Professor Wirth's new single pass compiler
and has been adapted to the Amiga environment by the same team that released
the public domain ETHZ compiler on Fish Disk #24. Since the release of  this
version a lot  of changes  had been  made to  fit optimally  into  the Amiga
environment.
 
M2Amiga works with version 1.2 of the Amiga operating system and runs on the
Amiga 500, Amiga 1000 and on the Amiga 2000 with at least one disk drive and
at least 512k of RAM. The system  can be  used either  from the CLI (Command
Line Interface) or from within the workbench environment 
 
This system comprises:
 
- an English or German language User Guide which explains in detail how  the
  system works, describes the basic modules and contains all interfaces with
  the Amiga operating system as Modula-2 definitions. This documentation and
  the English introductory guide allow  both the  beginner and the  advanced
  user to find the information he or she needs quickly and easily.
 
- a single  pass compiler  which produces  68000 machine  code from standard
  ASCII files at high speed. It can  generate on request  code to test array
  limits, stack  limits, overflow  and missing  return instructions etc. The
  compiler  does not interrupt on  errors but  continues compilation, noting
  any further ones. Exceptionally accurate error messages  are recorded in a
  file for later display by the editor.
 
- mc68000 specific operations as reading and writing registers, inline 68000
  instructions, FFP representation of REAL numbers (together with IEEE)  are
  supported by the compiler. Also supported are double precision  types. ROM
  calls (Exec, Intuition etc) DO NOT REQUIRE intermediate code.
 
- a  run-time system  takes into  account the special conditions of a multi-
  tasking system. Program crashes  (division by 0, address errors etc.)  are
  trapped, all open files are closed and all allocated memory is released.
 
- an editor derived from microEmacs that places the cursor at  the error and
  reports the error in plain text. Menus and error messages are  displayable
  in either German or English.
 
- a linker which automatically searches for all the  implementation  modules
  belonging  to  a module  and combines them  into a  program  which can run
  either from the workbench environment or from the CLI.
 
- all definitions relating to  the Amiga  operating system.  The definitions
  follow  the  official  definitions  for  the  C  programming  language  in
  structure and nomenclature. Modula-2's  much more  stringement data typing
  has been used in these definitions wherever possible. Remember: NO  OBJECT
  files with intermediate code needed!
 
- a  large  number  of  basic  libraries:  Arguments,   ASCII,   Conversions,
  Coroutines, FileNames, FileSystem,  FFPConversions, Heap,  InOut, MathLib0,
  MathLibLong, RandomNumbers,  RealConversions,  Storage,  Strings, Terminal,
  TextWindows and many more.
 
- even more: additional utilities are available for this basic package. There
  is a loader with  a source level  debugger, a converter for  standard Amiga
  object files  and further libraries  which are extremly  useful for program
  development.
 
 
The single pass compiler, the  user-friendly run-time  system and the absence
of   intermediate  code for  ROM calls  makes this system very  suitable  for
efficient program development on the Amiga.
 
M2Amiga  is  available  in  its  German version since August 87 and Interface
Technologies  Corporation and I are  very proud to  announce this product now 
on the American market. 
 
M2Amiga costs $199 (+$5 for shipping and handling) and is available from
 
Interface Technologies Corporation	further info (713) 523 8422 Markus
3336 Richmond,  Suite 323		orders       (800) 922 9049
Houston, Tx 77098
 
Also available:
- a demo version for limited  programs and with just a few libraries.
  Cost: $5 (+$1 for shipping and handling)
  Will be on a Fish Disk soon.
 
In Europe:
A.+L. Meier-Vogt, Im Spaeten 23, CH 8906 Bonstetten/ZH, +41 1 700 3037
 
Being one of the developers of this product I'll be happy to answer your
questions by e-mail, mail or on the phone.
 
Markus Schaub
M2Amiga Developer


    In the meantime I've received some brochures from the people mentioned
    in .6 (including the one reproduced in .7, but in German). Next
    I'll have them send me a demo disk (I wonder how they demo a M2
    compiler?).
    

    > I wonder how they demo...
    
    Usually they give you the source code and compiled programs to do
    all sorts of system-specific things (spin cubes and play symphonies),
    and gee look how easy it is.
    
    Personally I don't think that any implementation of the single-pass
    Modula-2 model would be ``the ultimate Modula-2 system''.  Nice
    to not need jacket routines for the OS calls, though.
    
    Steph
    

    Somewhere (I forget where) I read that the demo disk contains a
    limited version of the compiler, plus a limited library and some
    examples (but you can compile the examples).
    
    I'll order the demo disk today from Switzerland.
    
    In any case, any reasonable but possibly non-ultimate Modula system beats
    *any* C system....  ~\~
    

	I'm thinking seriously of getting the OXXI Modula-2
	compiler (I feel so guilty about abandoning 'c'...), and
	I've got a couple questions for those of you who already
	have it:

	1) Is there any support for either double precision floating
	point and/or 68881 coprocessors.

	2) What about the assembly language interface ?  Whose assembler
	does it work with, and how well ?

	3) Are the additional libraries (offered at $99 a crack) really
	worth it ?  What kinds of things do they do, and how well ?

	4) Is the linking function smart enough to extract only the stuff
	you need from a library, or do you get everything whether you need
	it or not ?

	5) How much memory and/or disk space do you need in order to do
	useful work ?  How big are the executables ?

	6) If you've programmed a lot in other languages, how do you
	like Modula in general ?  What's great about it ? What's lousy ?

	7) Have you had any interactions with OXXI themselves ?  How are
	they to deal with ?  Like TDI (hiss...) ?

	Thanks for any feedback.

	-Art

    I have not had any tremendous problems w/i TDI Modula support, just
    with the product itself.
    
    The problem with most Modula-2 compilers is that the code that they
    generate can often be just short of hillarious (unless you are
    depending upon it).  Specifically,  manipulating portions of records
    can be SLOW compared to what you see out of most C compilers.  This
    is usually due to the historical baggage associated with the
    language--Most companies just hack up some version of an ETH compiler,
    and it is too much of a drag to perform obvious optimizations for
    things like global structures.
    
    For this reason you NEED a good assembly language interface to do
    things like interrupt handling.  [TDI's assembly inteface is rotten.]
    
    I find the language itself to be vastly superior to C.  Specifically,
    for a careful programmer, if the program compiles, it is very often
    bug-free.  For 68K systems programming, though, almost any C compiler
    does a better job than most Modula compilers (I would love to see
    a version of the DECWRL modula for the 68K).
    
    I still program in C sometimes, but if I could get a decent M2 compiler, I
    would never look back (but alas.)
    
    Steph