Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Hi..
    
    Glad you asked here, since it's easier to give a pitch on our own
    turf.
    
    As you may have learned from the responses in the ST notesfile,
    both machines have pretty impressive capabilities.  To the casual
    observer, they may appear very similar.
    
    Where I think the Amiga really shines is in it's built-in system
    software.  Once you've really gotten used to a native multitasking
    environment, you'll wonder how a computer could possibly work without
    it.  
    
    If your interested in upward expandability, the Amiga OS is designed
    to work with a 68010 or 68020 uProcessor.  I've had a 68010 in mine
    for quite some time with no problems.  There are now three companies
    offering 68020/68881 boards for under $1000.  
    
    Although the ST does have impressive hardware for it's price, I
    really think the Amiga is a much more thought-out machine, with
    even more impressive hardware.  It's OS will go down in history
    as one of the more ambitious efforts.
    
    For you the question may indeed revolve around what kind of support
    the Amiga has in the UK.  I know that the ST has become the best
    seller in Germany and the UK.  But with the A500 offering Amiga
    performance at an Atari price, things may change.
                                         
    

    I put a rather long reply to this message in the ST notesfile. 
    It essentially points out the same things that Ed did...plus dealing
    with Atari vs Commodore.  I have grown to really distrust the Tramiel
    family.  They have spent the last few years spreading distorted
    truths about their/others hardware.  Their marketing strategies
    have been very uneaven.  They have spent a lot of time showing off
    products WAY ahead of delivery time (the Mega ST's, PC clone, Laser
    Printer)...although Commodore has pulled this too.  But in the case
    of Commodore, I feel that the wait was worth it.
    
    The ST monochrome/color monitor problem is a pain.  There are packages
    that will only run in one mode or the other.  Which monitor should
    you buy?  Should your TOS be in ROM or RAM?  Do you have a double
    sided drive or a single sided one.  These things only confuse the
    novice user...and are unnecessary.
    
    Granted, the Amiga is not perfect either, but to me, it is just
    that much better...worth the price for multitasking alone.
    
    Happy shopping!
    
    Randy
    

                  <<< SPHINX::__DJA1:[NOTES]ATARIST.NOTE;2 >>>
                              -< atari ST notes >-
================================================================================
Note 534.9                    Atari-ST or Amiga ?                         9 of 9
HYSTER::DEARBORN "Trouvez Mieux"                     29 lines  22-SEP-1987 10:50
                               -< How I use it >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How do I use multitasking?  Let me count the ways ;-)
    
    Saturday, I spent the day digitizing photographs.  The photos were
    then touched up using a paint program.  The files where then compressed
    from IFF format files to GIF files for transmission to a BBS.  The
    files were then uploaded.  So what's the big deal, you say?
    
    All of this was happening at the same time.  Conversion of IFF to
    GIF is a time consuming process.  I was able to start converting
    one file, while editing the next one.  I was able to log into the
    BBS and start uploading finished files...another time consuming
    process.  As I finished uploading the first file, the next converted
    one would be ready to send.  While that one was being sent, I would
    start editing and converting the next one.  
    
    Of course, converting the files takes up disk space, so I would
    have to clean up some old disks...so I would open another window
    to run a program called CLImate.  There I could delete old files,
    move them around, rename them, copy them, etc...while the other
    file is still uploading, while another one is in the process of
    conversion.............
    
    Get the idea?  I can't imagine how I could get by without multitasking.
    Sitting here at my terminal on the VAX makes me feel like my hands
    are tied.  Oh, to have an Amiga on my desk, here at work.  Or at
    least a VAXstation!
    
    Randy
    

    as you may have noticed, a few of us "visit" that other notesfile
    sometimes :-)
    
    It would be easier to compare specific models you are interested
    in.
    
    Any questions about the stuff you've seen in both notesfiles so
    far?
    
    -dave

    re: .3
    what are GIF files?
    
    -dave

    GIF is something new.  I believe it stands for Graphics Interchange
    Format.  They have been fiddling around with it on PeopleLink.
    
    It takes a graphics file from a Mac, PC or Amiga and compresses
    it.  You can then view it on any of those machines.  The compression
    of the file seems to be greater than ARCing it, so transmission
    times are speeded up.
    
    From what I can tell so far, it works fairly well.  GIF files take
    longer to display than standard IFF files on the Amiga.  Some PC
    users I know out there are amazed at the Amiga pics when they pop
    up on their PC screens.  The MAC users are generally disappointed,
    as the full color pictures don't convert very well to B+W.  To please
    them, I digitize the pictures in color, and in two color.  I use
    MACVIEW to convert the two color pics to MACPAINT format for uploading.
    It works amazingly well.  The color pics go the GIF route to make
    everyone else happy.
    
    There are two utilities: SHWGIF and IFFGIF.  SHWGIF is a viewer
    and IFFGIF is the conversion program.
    
    Randy
    

    Hi,
    	Still trying to digest the info. in both notesfiles but perhaps
    one comment I could make would be that I am a new hire and hence
    money definitely IS an object. So were probably looking at the low
    end of the ranges here.
    
    	Thanks to everyone whose contributed so far - a really great
    response. Hopefully this topic might help others trying to make
    the same choice.
    
    	Thanks people,
    		Col.
    

    Since you are looking at the low end, you're probably talking A-500
    vs. Atari 520ST or is it 1040ST that is the low end now? No matter.
    I know nothing about current pricing on the Atari. The A-500 is
    going for $515 or so at Abel, and that is damn good. The Amiga has
    a very advanced distributed architecture that offloads a lot of
    work from the 68000. The blitter (BLock Image TtransfER or something
    like that) can move chunks of memory around, overlay them using
    various bit masks, all at 2 clock cycles per bus cycle -- ie twice
    as fast as the 68000 without accounting for all the cycles that
    are "wasted" on reading the instructions to fetch. The blitter also
    uses cycles that the 68000 does not, so unless it is specifically
    instructed to take over, it simply provides more capacity.
    
    In the same way, the COPPER controls all display attributes and
    is actually a semi-intelligent coprocessor. So, for example, while
    you can display up to 32 colors out of 4096 (64 if you count "half
    bright mode) you can completely change the color set in the time
    it takes to scan one line. So, given a single blank horizontal line,
    you can completely reload new screen attributes and have a completely
    separate set of colors on a lower part of the screen. This operation,
    which is barely noticable on an Amiga, would hurt considerably on
    an Atari. There is no question that the Amiga is the better designed
    and conceived machine. It has an expansion port as well, vital if
    you are considering later additions when your wealth increases.
    (And it will! Two months ago I was a new hire!) The Atari has some
    expanability, but no access to its bus. Add to that the fact that
    the Amiga operating system is simply much nicer and more powerful
    (even forgetting about multitasking!) than GEM, and I think the
    choice is clear. If you've got the money, invest in an A-500. You
    may save $100 on the Atari now, but you will eventually regret it.
    With the Tramiels running the show, I don't see that Atari will
    last; it certainly is not the company I used to know and love.
    
    Good hunting!
    dov
    

Re: .8

Reply .8 brings up some important points about the Amiga's custom chips
that make it an unparalleled graphics machine.  Graphics on the Amiga
just happen:  you get use to menus and requesters just appearing, where
on other machines there is this slight delay.  If you use an Amiga for
any length of time, you find using any other machine irritating.  There
is this slight delay before a screen update that is just long enough
to make you wonder for a tenth of a second that something is wrong...

The Amiga organizes graphics on two levels, screens and windows.  Windows
are always attached to a screen.  A screen is a background for windows
that consists of a specification of a horizontal resolution, a vertical
resolution, and a pallet of color registers.  A screen must be the entire
physical length of the display device, but it can have any height. Screens
have the normal drag bars and front and back gadgets that a window has.
So you can have several screens active at once, normally stacked one on
top of the other, and you cycle through then using the front and back
gadgets.  However, do to the power of the "copper" custom chip, it is
possible to grab the drag bar of a screen and pull it down to reveal the
screens underneath.  (The copper is capable of changing the resolution
of the display on every scan line, and is capable of loading new values
in up to 8 of the color register on every scan line.)  The copper is
fast enough that you can pull up and down on a screens drag bar as
fast as you want, and the copper is capable of having the screen follow
the mouse at (almost) full speed.  It is an impressive sight.

This also shows a fundamental difference between the power of an Amiga
versus an ST.  An Amiga is capable of displaying everyone of its different
resolutions on the monitor at the same time.  The ST requires two different
monitors (and I think you also have to reboot to go from med res to high
res as well as plugging in the new monitor!).

If I was you, I would by the Amiga 500.  If money is tight, you can by
the Amiga 500 without a monitor and use your TV set as a monitor until
your bank account recovers.  Likewise, you can wait to buy the additional
half meg upgrade and a second disk drive.  That will let you enter the
would of Amiga computing without having to make such a large up front
investment.

    re: .9  reboot ST to switch from med-res to hi-res
    
    That is a feature, ST hi-res is monochrome, no grayscale, 70hz
    refresh.  Sending that to the color monitor may kill it.  That
    signal is why the monochrome monitor text is so good.  Also
    why you power off to switch monitors.
    
    that raises one other pet peeve of mine... 640x400 resolution.
    The ST can't do it in color, in fact, the only way to get 640x400
    is a special monochrome monitor that doesn't do greyscale.  Very
    nice for text, but for graphics...  The Amiga does 16 colors out
    of 4096 at that resolution, doesn't need a special monitor.  The catch
    is that it is interlaced - contrasting colors flicker.  By picking
    the right color combinations and avoiding thin horizontal lines
    you can eliminate the flicker.  There are other ways around that
    problem, but the point is that it can at least do color at that
    resolution!
    
    One of the more recent tricks with resolution is the overscan area.
    On a TV you don't have borders around the picture, on a monitor
    you do.  The video folks don't like the border, so... by using
    a public domain program called Morerows you can adjust the size
    of the screen to fit the total display area of your monitor.
    It changes the system-configuration file so that you can boot
    up in that resolution.  I've heard claims of 704x440 resolution,
    even greater on PAL versions of the Amiga.
    
    One gotcha on the Amiga 500, it does monochrome grayscale composite
    video in addition to RGB.  The rf modulator/color composite adapter
    costs extra.  The idea was to get better text quality on a cheap
    monochrome composite monitor.
    
    re: some previous note (forgot which)
    the ST can easily display 512 out 512 colors by raster interrupts,
    not sure what the limitation on how many changes per scan line is.
    I believe the NEOCHROME paint program lets you select colors from
    a pop-up 512 color display in the bottom 3rd of the screen.
    
    -Dave

    This brings up another 'wish list' feature, I wish they would both
    include.  When you change resolutions, the icons change aspect ratio.
    It would be nice if .info files on the Amiga (and their equivelent
    on the ST) were intelligent, so that they would display correctly
    in each resolution.  
    
    Running DeluxePaint gives you the same mode selection icons on the
    right side of the screen, regardless of resolution.  The exact opposite
    of this is the lousy implementation of 640x200 in Aegis Images.
    All the brushes are distorted versions of the 320x200 ones.  Very
    sloppy...
    
    Randy
    

    I haven't read the Atari users responses yet, but how about the
    Public Domain software availablity for both systems?  I remember
    talking to a friend of mine back in the Calgary office who owned
    a 1040ST...his biggest complaint was the lack of software.  I don't
    know if that is still the case BUT Fred Fish now has 102 Disks
    catalogued for the Amiga and available at most of the good dealers 
    in North America for FREE (some shareware of course).  This doesn't
    even take into consideration other user groups such as AMICUS who
    also have PD stuff available.
    
    To me, the hardware is only as good as the applications available
    since I don't have a lot of time to develop everything myself.
    
    The commercial software list seems to be growing all the time as
    well (see the ABEL SUPPLY note (568???)), so if software is a
    consideration, consider the best medium-resolution-low-priced-full-
    featured-multi-tasking-stereo-sound-color-graphics-personal-
    workstation available on the market today....
    
    				THE AMIGA
    
    (Does this still qualify as un-biased??)
    
    Stu
    

    One of the considerations was software available in the UK.  There
    is more AtariST software available there at this time (according
    to one response in the Atari notesfile.)  Your location can be an
    important factor in choosing a system.
    
        Randy
    

    re: last two entries...
    
    I agree, software is the key to the issue!  (sorry hardware jocks)
    Software makes even an old machine like the AppleII stil be viable
    for some people (although I don't want one)
    
    Find out the applications (games, PD hacks, C, Word processing,
    etc.) that you plan to use, then find some you like and choose the
    machine to match...
    
    For example, even the amiga can do midi, there is more S/W for the
    atari...(See the long debate on USENET) BUT the amiga can't be touched
    on video/animantion S/W...
    
    Scott.
    

    re: public domain software
    
    One big difference in the public domain software - the Amiga stuff
    comes with source code, most of the ST stuff doesn't.
    880K vs. 360K makes it alot easier to distribute sources.
    
    -dave

For price, used (trade-in) A1000s should be cheaper than A500s.  (Is the
trade-in policy in effect in the UK?)

	Paul

    Where (node and name) is the Atari ST notes file. Don't Get me wrong,
    I am a loyal Amiga fan (I own 1000 and a 500) But alas My TWIN brother
    Just bought a 1040st in spite of months of lobbying on my part.
    Since it cost too much in legal fees to dis-own him I figure the
    least I can do is help him out in his folly (while poking around
    for Atari weaknesses to dig at him with).
    
    Back to the subject of this note. From discusions with my brother
    feature for feature; I would go for the Amiga-500. 
    

    re: .17
    
    As much of an Amiga fan as I am, there are certain circumstances
    under which I would recommend an ST.  
    
    Some people have a very 'fast' eyes, which makes 640 x 400 flicker
    very annoying to them.  Some people actually get splitting headaches
    from staring at an interlaced screen for long periods.
    
    No reasonable, open-minded person would deny that the mono ST has
    the best display ever seen on a personal computer.  I feel it even
    is FAR superior to the MAC display.  (Well, not the 640 x 480 MACII).
    
    Even though the Amiga is, for the most part, a more versatile machine,
    if your needs were for a cheap terminal with a great display, I
    say go for the ST.  However, I think most people's needs quickly
    exceed the STs capabilities, so I usually hype the Amiga.

    
    re: .17
    
    SPHINX::ATARIST is the ST notesfile.
    
    -dave

    AmigaDOS CLI can be pretty frustrating to use at times.  Especially
    if you only have one disk drive.  All commands are reside on the
    disk, so you have to have the Workbench disk in your drive in order
    to execute a command.  Although you do get some flexabilty, you
    can copy commands to a RAM: disk and execute them from there.  There
    are also some alternatives available (PD and $$comercial$$).  For
    example, there is a PD program called MyCLI which has about 20
    frequently used commands such as 'dir' and 'cd' built in, and also
    provides command recall (VMS style).  
    
    
    Can anyone comment on the Atari DOS?

    re: .21
    
    the DOS on the ST (atari DOS is what runs on my Atari 400) is basically
    an ibm pc dos.  They don't have a CLI, but do have most of the usual
    cli stuff as menu items built into the windowing system (GEM).  There
    are CLIs available, public domain and otherwise.  The ST notesfile
    version of this note might be a more appropriate place to get more
    detailed info on their DOS.
    
    One thing i remember they don't have - multicolored icons for files.
    
    -dave

    I agree, the CLI is a pain...but then why bother using it when
    there are other alternatives?  The best CLI replacement I have seen
    is the Shell written by: originally Matt Dillon, current version
    by Steve Drew.  You have your choice, Unix style commands, or VMS
    style...many additional features too extensive to mention here.
    One has to mentioned though, since once you use command line recall
    (ala VMS), you can't live without it.  
    
    A definate *MUST* for anyone planning to use the Amiga beyond 
    mousing around.  I think Steve has a new version available...check
    note 742.
    

    just remembered another Amiga advantage... long filenames.  So
    you don't have to rename or truncate all those long VMS filenames
    you've come to love on files you want to transfer to the Amiga.
    
    -dave

The most important thing for me in considering a personal computer is 
multi tasking.  I originally bought the Amiga for Intuition,
a non-segmented architecture, and expandability.  The graphics were
not what I was looking for.  Although now I've come to love the graphics
as well; who could resist Leo's hacks!

Dave

    Hi,
    First of all I would like to thank all you AMIGA and ATARI owners for
    your advice, and I'd also like to apologise for not replying sooner but
    I have been busily involved saving money to buy the new machine. Thanks
    to all your advice (and getting some cash at Christmas) I finally made
    my decision and decided that and AMIGA is for me.

    I have decided to but and A500 but still have some questions before I
    buy,

    Due to a minor technical hitch (not enough money), I don't think I will
    be able to afford a monitor for the A500 just yet. So can anyone tell
    me what kind of quality you can get on a TV using the modulator ?

    Also, I really need a high level language, probably C, but the most
    common package I have seen, Lattice C, seems pretty expensive. Any
    cheap but chearfull C compilers available ? If not is Lattice worth the
    money.

    Finally, (for the British only) can anyone recommend a good AMIGA
    dealer in the Thames Valley - London area, carry-out or mail order.

    Again thanks,
	Colin.
    

>    my decision and decided that and AMIGA is for me.

 Good Decision!




>    Also, I really need a high level language, probably C, but the most
>    common package I have seen, Lattice C, seems pretty expensive. Any
>    cheap but chearfull C compilers available ? If not is Lattice worth the
>    money.

	Lattice from Abel or The Software Shop can be had for about $150
	And I think it's well worth it. I just picked up Lattice 4.0
	from The Software Shop and it only took me about 1/2 to 1 hour to be up
	and running and already writing my first utility (ShowProc - displays
	all processes on system (you know, the ones SYSMON calls "waiting"
	and "ready") and their memory useage, state, flags, signal info,
	trap stuff etc..)

	Anyway, 150 bucks for a real good compiler/libraries/examples
	is ok with me.

	There is a Public Domain C compiler on
		
		MVCAD3::USER0:[AMIGA.FF110]PDC.ARC , A68K.ARC

	But it seemed to me of be a lot of work and I dont think
    	it has any libraries. There's also A68K - Macro Assembler.
                


	Mail Order:  Abel Supply or The Software Shop.


John

    Re:  Using a TV with an A500
    
    You might want to check out a gadget made by C-Ltd, called the C-View.
    
    It is a small adaptor that attaches to the RGB out port on the A500
    and provides a color composite signal.  If you don't have a TV that
    accepts composite inputs, you could run it into a VCR and then RF
    modulate it to your TV set.
    
    I haven't seen the output provided by the C-View, but it is a cheap
    way to get color composite out of an A500.  It sells for $50 retail
    in the States.  
    
    One magazine reviewer felt that it gave readable text on a
    cheap CBM composite monitor.
                                           
    When your bank account recovers, you might want to check out the new
    Thomson RGB monitor that sells for around $250.  
                                                                    
    Glad you chose an Amiga.  

    re: 26 I agree Lattice is good, look through the notes file for
    other info on Lattice vs Manx.  Good decision, and welcome!
    
    re: 27 Waiting in anticipation of posting of the util...
    
    scott.
    

	I just got an amusing mail message from someone in COMMUSIC (Computer
Music) notes.  He said that he was much more impressed by the Atari 1040 ST
than the Amiga and said if he needed multitasking he'd use a VAX.
	Nothing like flogging yourself.  (`I will NOT use multitasking!
I will NOT use multitasking!  I will NOT...')

--mikie--

P.S.  His Amiga demo obviously wasn't too good, because he didn't know what
      ray-tracing was.  I thought that was the first thing you show off!

    
    Amazing isn't it... The folks in Commusic really could benefit from
    Multitasking. The proof ? Many of the MIDI SW developers for these
    non multitasking machines ( Atari, Macs etc) have had to develop a
    " sort of, almost, no quite" multitasking environment for their
    products.                              
                  
    Putting those jacks on the back of the Atari really helped them
    with their market share. Hopefully the next year or two will
    see the Amiga share grow -
    
    
    

My wife and I are finally contemplating buying a home computer and the choice
has narrowed to the Atari 520STFM and the Amiga 500.  I am somewhat familiar
with the ST, but have little knowledge of the Amiga so I have a few questions
here.  It might be best if responses be direct to me by E-mail, rather than
clog this note up with lots of overlapping replies.

First off, I said I'm interested in the 500 rather than a 2000 because one
requirement is the computer be self-contained except for the display, so I can
easily transport it from the family room (where the kids would use it) to my
workroom (where I would use it).  Both the 500 and the 520ST meet this
requirement.  Also, both have the same amount of standard memory...so what's
different?

1.  Video

I'd like to be able to use our TV for the kids and a higher resolution screen
for myself.  The Atari has a built-in RF modulator which would drive the TV and
I would use a high-res monochrome monitor.  The Amiga seems to have monochrome
composite video and RGB only, this means I need some sort of RGB-->color
composite adapter or an RGB-->RF modulator, or else use an RGB tube rather than
the TV. So with Amiga I either need two tubes or buy some sort of box to let me
hook up to the TV in color.  How much do such things cost?     

On the minus side for Atari, it's not neat switching between resolution modes
and standard RGB terminals won't work.

2.  Software

This seems to be a tie.  Neither Amiga or Atari have the numbers of available
titles like IBM or Mac, but Amiga gets a slight nod as some mall-type stores
are carrying titles.  Pickings look slim, though.  What is the Amiga PD program
base like?  In particular I need a good VT emulator, as a prime application for
the computer is to replace the VT220 I'm typing this with!!!  For the Atari,
WHACK is available and it's a beauty of a program.  Are there any real good PD
terminal emulators out there?

Secondly, I'm looking for children's software (preschool level).  I've found a
reasonable number of titles for Atari (commercial as well as PD).  I've seen a
few of these advertised in Amiga versions as well. What about PD stuff?

My third priority is MIDI software, currently Atari has a slight edge here,
although I think Amiga is gaining fast.  Atari has the advantage of the
interface being integrated into the machine.

Lastly, I see where Atari has software emulation of the IBM-PC available (this
is of some interest), and hard/soft Mac emulation available (of less interest
due to cost) to increase the SW base. What's available like this for Amigas?

3. Disks and Power Supplies

I'd like to be able to operate for awhile with just the CPU and a tube, add a
printer, before jumping in with memory expansions, second drives, etc.  From
mail-order prices I've seen, the cost of upgrading RAM is pretty similar with
both machines.  So is the cost of a second floppy.  However, I have seen
mention in this notesfile that a second drive is really needed on the Amiga,
can someone explain this further?  Will I be severely limited with only a
single floppy and 512K memory?  This doesn't appear to be a problem in
Atari-land.

Also, I've noticed quite a few ads for third-party power supplies for the 500. 
Recalling the old C64 supply woes, I'm curious, is there some sort of problem
with tthe factory power supply?

4. Multitasking

I will admit to ignorance here...what sort of home applications make
multitasking an attarctive feature?  I am not planning on writing gobs of code,
and obvious simple time saving things like print spoolers are readily available
for Atari, as for most machines.  Can someone give a good example where the
multitasking of the Amiga is a big advance over performing a similar task on
the Atari?

5.  Pricing

The only mail-order price on a 500 I've seen printed was $519 for the basic
unit, $719 bundled with a generic RGB tube, $790 with the Commodore tube and
$900+ with the Commodore tube and second drive. Plus I still need a second tube
or an RF/composite color video hookup for the TV. Atari is under $400 for the
base unit, about $550 with a mono tube, about $675 with a color tube, a second
disk about $150, so overall it would run about $100-200 less than Amiga
depending on whether I go for a mono or color tube.  However, I don't want to
be penny wise, etc.  Can a 500 be had for much less than what I mentioned
above?

6. Support

Any members of the Worcester are users' group I saw listed in Amiga Resource
magazine?  Are there good PD archives available on the EasyNet?  What about
knowledgable and honest Amiga dealers close to Worcester, MA?  Atari has
basically screwed most of their dealers so there are only a few in MA.  

In closing:

My applications as I see them today are pretty simple....games and educational
stuff for the kids, terminal emulation and MIDI for myself and some household
stuff like word processor and personal finance for my wife and myself.  The
video goodies of the Amiga have no appeal for me and I don't plan on doing a
lot of my own programming.  However, I am, trying to look ahead and leave a
path for upgrading as my family's needs change.  To be honest, I am probably
90% sold on Atari as of today but I do need to know if Amiga is offering a
better solution.

							Brian

    Also see topics #2719, and possibly 1524 & 1526 for more info.

    
    Re: .33, 2719
    
    Wow, I read those notes you suggested and am now more confused than
    ever.  Talk of $400 add on boards to get rid of flickering displays and
    $600 monitors.....geez, you're going to make me an Atari owner  8^) 
    8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian

    Do not be fooled by store displays, there are many hundreds or more
    titles of s/w for the amiga.  Buy an amiga magazine (common in
    bookstores now) of any title, and look in the two-page ads of mail
    order s/w.
    An rgb adaptor is about $70 or so.  RF is probably similar.  I advise
    getting a generic or commodore tube because the quality is so superior
    to broadcast tv (for reading text in 80 columns.  Over the TV RF you'd
    be stuck with 60 columns).  Composite to TV is also not quite good
    enough to read 80 columns.  So buy the bundled one.
    I had a one-drive amiga for a few months.  That second drive is pretty
    helpful and probably semi necessary.
    Don't listen to the spend freaks who make a "minimum" amiga cost over
    $5K.
    The amiga is not portable, not with one drive.  Pick one place to put
    it and leave it there.  This is probably true for other computers too.
    The music software is mature now.  MIDI interfaces on the serial port
    are about $65.  The ECE one will allow you to switch between the modem
    ($120 for 2400 baud) and the midi interface.  If you want a printer get
    a parallel interface printer so you don't have to switch that on the
    serial port too.
    Here is an example of multitasking:  Run clock in a corner.  Run the
    terminal emulator.  Pull over a document and print it from the command
    line interface and go back to the terminal emulator while it is
    printing and the clock is running.  Meanwhile, the computer voice comes
    over the speaker and says, dinner in the crock pot is ready (because
    you used a one-line command to tell it to fire at that time).
    Also, you might want to edit a document at home end before sending it
    to the printer or back to work (it happens) so you run an editor like
    memacs on the second disk that comes with the computer while the
    emulator, the clock, the printer are all running.  A Megabyte machine
    might get crowded at this point, but it might run on a small file to
    edit.
    Note that there is much (about 250 megabytes)
    free s/w which when you figure out how to make
    it work from your system and home, you can get from disks at Digital
    (legally free terminal emulators, games, etc.) over your modem.  
    The Amiga has a
    command line interface like cpm and an icon interface like mac at the
    same time.
    
    I know of no clone s/w emulator.  If you buy a 2000 you could get a
    clone on a board and plug it in.  There is a mac emulator also (h/w and
    s/w and you buy a prom from apple as a spare part).
    But it's up to you.  See both machines do all the things you need them
    to do and carefully count the stuff that was attached and the cost of
    the software running at the time it was doing it.
    Tom

    In line with other replies here...  you'll be _much_ happier getting
    about $1K of hardware, regardless of which brand you choose.  Software
    for kids is rather thin on Amiga compared to the Apple II or IBM lines
    -- my 2 year old daughter loves her Sesame Street coloring book,
    though.  
    
    Flicker fixer, multisync monitor, hard drives, boom box for audio,
    etc., are solutions to problems you _will not_ encounter with a basic
    setup.  So ignore 'em.
    
    Finally, I hope you will try out these machines before you choose one. 
    Best place to go starting in Worcester is to the Memory Location, on
    Rte. 16 in Wellesley, about 1 mile west of the intersection with Rte.9.
    (Other places have lower prices, though.) A good test drive at a full
    line dealer can help a lot to make up your mind.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Wes

>What about
>knowledgable and honest Amiga dealers close to Worcester, MA?  Atari has
>basically screwed most of their dealers so there are only a few in MA.

You might consider going to the Bit Bucket in Newton or Sudbury. They
handle Amiga and Atari and may be able to give you some perspective on
the features and futures of each. 

Also note that most Atari owners are not impressed with their keyboards,
while Amiga keyboards feel similar to DEC LK201s (IMO). 

I had no problem finding a RGB > RF adapter for $30.
An RGB monitor is much better, but it can be fun to play games
through a large TV set with a good stereo set up around it.
Amiga games are in four channel stereo.

My multitasking example:

Fire up the terminal emulator. Pull down a script to do the dialup.

After logging into the VAX at work, go back to emulator's session buffer
and cut and paste sections to refine the dialup script which you just
put into a separate Amiga based editor. 

Edit the script while something is processing on the VAX and switch 
back and forth between the two sessions with a keystroke.

Then start up a download from the VAX, and while it is downloading, format
a few disks, and cleanup, delete, rename, & copy files etc. to make room for the
new download. After one download, decompress the downloaded file while you
download another. Or play a game while you are waiting for a download.
Not every game can be played while you download, but there are lots that can.
Or do your edits locally while you download and then upload them later, while
you decompress another file.

This is all on a one meg 2 floppy A500 system.

Dave

    
    After carefully reading your initial query, I would offer the following
    advice...
    
    DO NOT BUY A COMPUTER!!!
    
    I mean this in all earnest.  If you are as sensitive to cost as you
    imply, then your life will become an unbearable hell from the moment
    you bring your computer home.
    
    The reason for this is simple:  all computers are inadequate.  No
    matter how much you believe that your initial investment will meet your
    needs, you'll find that you were wrong, and you'll need to upgrade
    your hardware and software.  You'll want a hard drive, gobs of memory,
    laser printer, and other gadgets that probably haven't even been
    invented yet.  Add to this the fact that almost no one actually _needs_
    a computer, and you've got a pretty good argument for staying clear.
    
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you're either cheap or
    broke, you asking for big trouble.
    
    

    re -1.
    
    	Hey Ed, can you spare 50� for a cup of coffee.
    
    Roger
    

    re:.32
    
    From your description, you sound like the classic atari st owner.  
    The needs you mention are the strong points of the st and the weak 
    points of the amiga.  I'd recommend getting a st except for the current
    state of the atari market in the US.  The STe sounds like it's worth 
    waiting for, if you really want an ST...
    
    But since you posted the note here, it sounds like you are looking for
    something to offset the st bias.  Do you want info on the weak points
    of the ST or info on the strong points of the Amiga?  As you may have
    noticed from previous discussion of this topic, most problems can be
    overcome by 3rd party hardware/software.  The catch is how much will
    it cost and how non-standard your configuration will be when you are
    done.  And who will repair it when something goes wrong, particularly
    if the 3rd party company has gone out of business.
    
    -Dave
    

    Just a quick note to say that i am actually an st owner (boo hiss),
    and from what you say you want, the st sounds like the computer
    you're looking for.
    
    BUT, bear in mind that the amiga is becoming more and more popular
    now it has better support in Europe.
    
    The amiga is streets ahead in any graphics area. It has multitasking,
    which is useful!
    
    The ST is just ahead in the midi area, with the amiga not far behind
    now.
    
    Both are good for home packages like wp's and spreadsheet etc...
    
    When you choose, make your primary concern on what you want now,
    otherwise you may have to wait a little longer for that 'fast
    approaching software soon to be released'. You know the story, delays
    of 6mth or more. Happens with most software.
    
    Whichever you choose, by happy with it. 
    
    Lewis.
    
    PS.           *****  TRY  AND  BUY  *****
    
    Take your kids along to try it out, and the wife. Make sure you
    are all happy with it.

Just to add to the confusion, there exists a full blown, commercial and
most of all _available_ ST emulator for the Amiga.

It's produced and distributed by a German company and supports all
screen resolutions, floppy and HD access as well as MIDI thru the Amigas
serial port. The price including some piece of hardware (probably just there
for copyright reasons, like with the A-Max Mac emulator) is about
DM 600, which results in about US$350.

I'll try to contact a friend of mine who knows the developers for more info
today, stay tuned.

Cheers,

<CB>
 

    Re .32:                     
    
    I sent a rather lengthy mail message to Brian Rost (as he'd requested)
    giving point-by-point responses to his questions and concerns.  It's
    too big to post here, so I won't.  I *will* "cut to the chase" though.
    
    Either the ST or the Amiga would satisfy his stated requirements.  So
    would a PC clone or a C=64.  As I told him, "Don't buy a computer just
    to have a computer.  If your total goals are limited to what's been
    expressed, then get the cheapest system (which could well be a PC
    clone) that you're confident will meet those goals during its expected
    lifetime."  I also urged him to, "Look at what others do with their
    systems to get an idea of where you might end up."
    
    His questions caused me to ask myself why *I* bought an Amiga, when I
    was still a happy C=128 user (my wife's asked the same question 8^). 
    Something caused me to make the move.  It wasn't a matter of selecting
    from several possible alternatives; rather, it was a matter of being
    motivated to buy a system at a time when I wasn't in the market for one.
    
    The answer is two-fold.  First (and only partially relevant to the
    issue at hand) was that I had reached the practical limits of my C=128
    and couldn't justify further investment in it.  That has ramifications
    in ANY computer purchase decision.  Parkinson's law dictates that "work
    expands to fill the time [I'd assert ALL resources] available."  If one
    buys a system without considering its growth path, (s)he is VERY LIKELY
    to be unhappy in the future.
    
    Second, I'm something of a snob.  As I told Brian, "I also have a
    requirement for a SYSTEM WORTH HAVING (i.e. a moderate-to-high level of
    elegance[�] is mandatory that MS-DOS lacks).  I've been in the software
    business a long time and I have no intention of rewarding mediocre
    efforts".  The Amiga isn't perfect, but it meets this requirement at a
    price I can afford.  Once the cost of the system I wanted dropped below
    the threshhold of the amount of money I could spend for it, I bought. 
    (As it turned out, the combination is even better than I'd hoped!)
    
    � Multitasking is no small part of that consideration.  The Amiga is a
      Personal WORKSTATION in a world of single-minded PCs.  There's NO
      going back once one realizes how significant this is.  The ability
      to use both a Command Line Interface AND an icon-based workbench is
      not to be ignored either.

    re .32
    
    	One question not answered.
    
    6.  Yes, I'm a member ( and club PD librarian ) for the Worcester
        County AMIGA User Group ( WCAUG ). We are a small group that
        meets once a month. About half the club are DEC people.
    
    
    
    		Steve Peters
    		

    	Getting back to .32, you mentioned games and educational programs
    as requirements. The Amiga 500 is THE games machine. A500 boards are
    used in arcade machines. In some cases, the Amiga games ARE the arcade
    version of the game.
    
    	For educational programs, there are a fair number of titles for
    preschoolers from companies like First Byte. But, with Amiga Basic,
    you can write your own very simply. You get access through simple Basic
    commands to graphics, menus, mouse events, joystick input, sprites,
    sounds, and synthesized voice. I was able to write a reasonable paint
    program the first night I had the machine. The synthesized voice is a real
    attention getter for preschoolers. Especially when it uses their names.
    
    	As an example of programming simplicity, there is a Basic command 
    to convert text to phonemes, 
    
    a$ = TRANSLATE$("Awesome, Dude"). 
    
    Speech is initiated by the command 
    
    SAY(a$). 
    
    You can hand tweak the phonemes and emphasis if you don't like what you 
    get from TRANSLATE$.
    
    	Since programming is so simple, you can keep modifying
    the programs as the child progresses. That keeps their interest. When
    you tell them you changed the program, they just have to try it out.
    
    	On the other end of the spectrum, the Amiga is a satisfying
    computer hacker's machine. You get a well thought out OS, a good
    windowing system, multi-tasking, pipes between processes, and a
    base hardware configuration that is second to none. The base hardware
    configuration is really important because programs tend to be written
    for the least common denominator.
    
    	There are several really good VT100/VT220 emulators in the PD libraries.
    Multi-tasking is needed for doing ANYTHING while you are on-line.
    
    	The best idea is to go over to the Bit Bucket and see the ST
    and Amiga side by side. Get them to show you the NewTek demo...