Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    The only problems I see with any of the Amigas for engineering work
    are the software and hi-res display flicker. Fortunately, both are
    fixable.  Good engineering software will arrive eventually, and
    a long persistence analog RGB monitor will cure the hi-res flicker.
     Monitors like Mitsubishi or Ikegami for pro cad workstations are
    available used for around $350, though I'm only assuming they can
    be connected to an Amiga.
    
    CPU power is not an issue in my mind, since if you find the 68000
    too slow, you can migrate to 68010 for $50, 68020 for around $1000,
    and 68020 + 68881 (math chip) for around $1500.  
    
    The memory problem is not how much, since you can go to at least
    8 Meg, but the chip ram limit of 512k.  In my opinion this is enough
    for most low end work.
    
    I have Dynamic Cad and Aegis Draw Plus; see the notes on them, or
    send me mail to discuss.
    
    John
    

    Re: .0
    
    There is a company called CSA that markets an Amiga package called
    the Turbo Amiga.  It uses an Amiga 1000 with an expansion card cage
    that uses a 68020 @14MHz, and a 68881, and offers .5 or 1.0 meg
    of 32-bit wide memory.  It also includes a 20 meg SCSI drive, power
    supply, and fan.  This package, including the Amiga 1000 and 1080
    monitor, retails for around $5500.  Performance is advertised to
    be 40 x that of an IBM AT.  My guess is that it would be in the
    league of the Mac ][.
    
    The limitations are still the Amiga set of graphics modes, as .1
    pointed out. (I feel that 640 x 400 is insufficient for serious
    cad work).  The Amiga custom chips can only access the lower 512K 
    of memory.  I guess this isn't too bad, since the standard MAC ][
    video card provides 256K of video memory.
    
    The nice thing about the 68020 Amiga is that it will purportedly
    run all Amiga software, since the Amiga OS was designed to be upwardly
    compatible with the 68*** family.  I have been using a 68010 for
    about 6 months now with absolutely no problems at all.

  This sounds very good.  Just two more questions:

  Is there a (relatively flexible) parallel external expansion bus that can be
used for hardware home-brewing (A/D's, RAM box, etc.) ?

  Are hardware/software internals manuals available ?

			Thanks,
			/R Best

    I forgot to mention an important point in .2....
    
    The logical choice for an expandable machine would be the Amiga
    2000, which has been shipping in Europe for several months, but
    won't hit the stores here until August.
    
    In a nutshell, the A2000 is an Amiga with slots, much like the MAC
    ][.  (Forgive the comparison).  CSA has demonstrated a 68020/68881
    card for the 2000 with a retail list of around $1500.  This means
    that you could actually get a 68020 powered workstation for around
    $3500 sans monitor.  CBM has also shown an 8086 card and has hinted
    of an 80286 card soon to follow.  What is interesting is that the
    Amiga OS will allow multitasking and data sharing between processors.
    In addition, you could run an EGA or VGA card in the 2000 if you
    needed higher resolution non-interlaced graphics on the PC side
    of things. The Amiga blitter chip would not speed up any alien 
    graphics modes though.
    
    I am no expert on the MAC ][, which is a wonderful machine, but
    the price is a bit high in my opinion.  However, the MAC ][ seems
    to have a more flexible video scheme in that all the video hardware
    is on a plug in-card, as opposed to the Amiga where you are stuck
    with the custom chips that live on the motherboard.  On the MAC
    ][, if a third party comes out with a 1024 x 1024 color board, just
    plug it in.  I don't think the Amiga has that flexibility.
                                                            
    I think you owe it to yourself to post the question in the MAC notes
    file.  There is some sort of group buy of MAC ]['s going on over
    there where 24% discounts are being mentioned.  With a hefty discount,
    you might be able to get into a MAC ][ for around $4000 sans monitor.
    
    To answer your last question, there is a complete set of Amiga
    technical manuals covering the multitasking Exec, Intuition, Hardware,
    and ROM kernal manual.  These are quality volumes published by Addison-
    Wellesley
    
    There are several excellent expansion boxes for the Amiga.  Most
    are used for adding several megs of ram, but they generally pass
    full access to the 68000 buss.  There is a standard expansion spec
    called 'Zorro' that defines a physical board/pinout scheme.  These
    documents are also available from Commodore.
                                                         
    One personal opinion here..  the Amiga plays the most awsome, insanely
    great games that the world has seen.  With stereo sound, high speed
    animation, and over 4000 colors to chose from, it rivals or exceeds
    arcade quality.  

    re: .4
    
    I think the Amiga 2000 has a video slot for enhanced graphics boards
    so that you aren't limited to the normal graphics modes.  I've heard
    claims of video boards with 1024x800 resoultion for that slot.
    
    The 2001 box, forgot who is making it, is claimed to be an add-on
    box for the Amiga 1000 which will have all the Amiga 2000 slots,
    including the video slot.
    
    all vaporware until they ship to customers.
    
    -dave

    
    	I am sorry but I appear to be a little confused.  I have read
    a couple of pre-reviews of the amiga 2000 and have read about A
    video slot, but that slot was only for using a board to produce
    NTSC or PAL video output.  I am no EE so I don't really have much
    of a clue about the video slot, could someone care to elaborate?
    
    			brad
    
    ps. I had heard that the AMIGA 1000 is already capable of producing
        1024 x 1024 pics, but that it is a matter of displaying it...Is
        that where the video slot would come in?

    re: .0
    
    A newer version of SPICE written in C was released last year from
    Berkley, and the source code is available at DEC.  I've considered
    starting the task of trying to get the thing to compile, but must
    wait until I get some extra memory.  I have a great fear that neither
    of the C compilers will be capable of doing the job.
    
                                                        

Re: .4

>With stereo sound, high speed animation, and over 4000 colors to chose
>from, it rivals or exceeds arcade quality.

It can't really exceed arcade quality since Bally is building there new
generation of arcade machines around the Amiga 500.  At most, you can
say that, unlike other machines that claim arcade quality, the Amiga
actually will be used in the arcades.

Re: .5

>    I think the Amiga 2000 has a video slot for enhanced graphics boards
>    so that you aren't limited to the normal graphics modes.

The 2000 does indeed have a video slot.  The magazines reported that slot
was for a NTSC or PAL output board, but Commodore has officially mentioned
a genloc on a board for that slot.  Lately, there have been rumors of using
that slot for higher resolution graphics modes.  I would expect that even
one bit plane of 1024 by 1024 would cycle steal like crazy.  (It needs
1.4 times the memory accesses of a interlaced HAM display.)

The 2001 box is an ASDG future product.  A similar type box has been announced
by CSA.

>    all vaporware until they ship to customers.

Very true!  Announcements of non-products is rife in the pc industry.  You
should not base any buying decision on future products; they may not occur.

    re: .7
    
    	Where is the Spice C-source?
    

    If someone could get Spice running on Amiga, I'd probably sway a
    few EE type friends away from PC's.
    
    Request:  If someone does do a port, please make sure you put in
    some hooks to use an optional 68881 math chip.  (Does the new Manx
    support this?)

    
>    Request:  If someone does do a port, please make sure you put in
>    some hooks to use an optional 68881 math chip.  (Does the new Manx
>    support this?)

	Yes!  Manx 3.4 has an alternate library for the 68881; I haven't
	had access to a machine equipped with one, however, so I don't
	know if the library is any good.  From what I hear, they had to
	really push to get it finished for the 3.4 release...

	Just where IS the new SPICE on the net (drooling...)

		-Art

    I was hoping I'd hear some interest about SPICE 3.  I'll find out
    if it's okay to post the location of the sources here.
    
    Right now I have no way to download software.  So if anyone wants to do this
    for me, I could start compiling it that much sooner.
                                                        

    Spice 3 can be found in:
    
    	decsim::glue$:[sled.spice3a7...]
    
    I assume it is set up to compile under VMS.
    The owner of the files is Steve Greenberg who can be reached at 
    DECSIM::GREENBERG.  

>   The logical choice for an expandable machine would be the Amiga
>   2000, which has been shipping in Europe for several months, but
>   won't hit the stores here until August.
 
Having been warned against 'vaporware' (either hard or soft), I think I'll go
with an A1000 with packed memory for now and consider an upgrade later.
                                                            
>   I think you owe it to yourself to post the question in the MAC notes
>   file.

Thanks; I will do so.  I must admit that I look at Apple Mac products
with a jaundiced eye.  My cousin bought an original Mac several years
ago and has complained bitterly at the exorbitant price of Apple's aftermarket
hardware and software.

>    To answer your last question, there is a complete set of Amiga
>    technical manuals covering the multitasking Exec, Intuition, Hardware,
>    and ROM kernal manual.

Thanks again.  I'm purchasing a set.