Conference hydra::amiga_v1

! 
! 1. What software is bundled?

	The Amiga comes with the operating system Amigados, a small number
of demo programs, utilities ( text editor, font editor, Icon editor ) and Basic.
I have seen many stores include some old software there are trying to unload.

! 
! 2. Can I easily get 'foreign' characters (e.g. DEC-Multinationl)?

	The Amiga supports many different keyboard and screen character sets.
If you don't like what is there, the Amiga comes with a font editor.

! 
! 3. Is there some sort of batch server?

	Even though it is multi tasking, I have not seen true batch server.
You can create more active tasks ( windows ) or more CLIs. Maybe an idea
for a new program ??? I have to think about it.

! 
! 4. Is it unrealistic to use it with a composite colour monitor until the
! 	long-persistance monitors are available?

	Good monitors are available, but not from Commodore. You will find
MOST stores will want to include the standard monitor in some deal.

! 
! 5. Can device drivers be user-written without too much pain (particullarly
! 	print drivers)?

	I have written a few printer drivers. To write one from scratch takes
some work. There are MANY printer drivers in public domain and there is a
printer driver generator program that is easy to use. If you need a driver
send me a message and we can work something out.

! 
! 6. Are 1000s still being produced?

	Good question. I'm not sure anyone knows. I have found that many
dealers are cutting stock to get ready for the new Amiga.

! 
! 7. Are the characters generated by the numeric keypad distinct from those
! 	of the main keyboard?

	From a programming view, they can be different.

! 
! 8. How prevelant are copy-protection schemes which would hinder the use of
! 	an hard disk.

	Almost all games are copy protected and some require that it be booted
stand alone. If you are programming, all the tools, compilers, editors are NOT
copy protected. A few programs ( Dpaint ) cost extra for a non-copy protected
version. Also there are some programs that can break (remove) the copy
protection.

! 
! 9. Can the same task image run simultaneously from more than one process?

	YES, I do it all the time. You will need extra memory to run very
much.

! 
! And, regarding the CLI (bare bones - no shell)...
! 
! 10. Are there command files?

	Yes.

! 
! 11. I/O redirection?

	Yes.

! 
! 12. Symbol substitution/aliasing?

	Yes.

! 
! 13. Command line recall/editing?

	No.

Re: .1

	Thanks for the reply.  I would like to elaborate on a couple of points,
though.

>! 
>! 2. Can I easily get 'foreign' characters (e.g. DEC-Multinationl)?
>
>	The Amiga supports many different keyboard and screen character sets.
>If you don't like what is there, the Amiga comes with a font editor.

	Being in the US, I 'spect I'll have a difficult time getting anything
other than a U.S. keyboard.  What I am particularly after is to get umlauts
for the vowels (i.e. �,�,�,�,� and Upper case, as well)  if I have to use a
font editor for these, are there ten characters I can give up easily?  If its
possible to switch fonts, this may be an acceptable solution.  Could I write
my own keymaps?

>! 
>! 4. Is it unrealistic to use it with a composite colour monitor until the
>! 	long-persistance monitors are available?
>
>	Good monitors are available, but not from Commodore. You will find
>MOST stores will want to include the standard monitor in some deal.

	Yes, I realize most stores will push the monitor.  I'm going to try
to go without it, however.  My problem is that I am very sensitive to flicker.
I have a virtually new AMDEK Color-I-plus composite monitor sitting in my
attic.  I was wondering if the display would be usable until I had the time
to investigate which long persistance RGB monitor I wanted, and had the money
to purchase it.

	Again, thanks for the info.

Mark

    re: Use of a composite monitor...
    
    The Amiga composite output is nothing to write home about, but yes,
    you can discern 80 column text without much difficulty.
    
    I think you'll find that most dealers will charge you the same amount
    whether or not you take the Amiga 1080 monitor, so you might as
    well use it, since its free anyway.
    
    By the way, CBM has announced a $500 long persistance monitor for
    the Amiga 2000.  I don't know when it will be available, but hopefully
    by May or June at the latest.  Its apparently no big trick to make
    a long persistance monitor, its just that the volume demand has
    never been very high.
    
    By the way, does anyone know if the Pee Cee EGA (640 x 350) graphics
    mode uses an interlaced or non-interlaced display?
    
    

    re: .2
    
    The default amiga character set has multinational characters, not
    sure how close its to DEC-multinational.  I believe the vowels you
    mentioned are in there, use cntrl-something to get them.
    The AmigaDOS manual has a chart of the character set.
    
    re: .1   test for salesman's level of amiga knowledge
    Try asking why you should buy an Amiga instead of an ST.  Say you've
    already decided pc clones are trash.  That should be enough to get
    any computer salesperson going :-)
      Then ask for a demo of the multitasking you've heard so much about.
    
    -dave
    

    re: .2 again
    
    I tried the composite out thru my old VCR, to a 19" color TV (Samsung).
    The 80 column text is actually very readable, but a little fuzzy.  The
    Amdek should work fine.  The big lose with composite is the lack
    of sharp details and the bright colors of RGB.
    
    The interlace flicker is only a "problem" in the 320x400 or 640x400
    resolutions.  Most software runs in 320x200 or 640x200.  Just don't
    use the interlace modes until you get a long persistance monitor.
    The Vt100 emulator v2.6 has a usable 640x400 (48 lines) mode due
    to a good choice of colors (amber on black).  The default workbench
    colors are terrible for interlace mode.
                                                
    I use the 1080 monitor, looks great to me.  It isn't the best monitor
    in the world, but if its "free" with the system....
    I normally have the keyboard in my lap, so i'm not really too demanding
    about the quality of the display - i just want it to look nice from
    2'-3' away.  It does look lots better than the 19" color TV.
    
    -dave

Re: .0

>1. What software is bundled?

In addition to the operating system, the CLI, and the Workbench, there
is a very nice version OF Basic and some utilities.  Probably any system
you buy will still come with the 1.1 version of the Software.  The 1.2
upgrade kit is about $15 US dollars more.  The 1.2 update include some
additional utilities, in addition to updating all the 1.1 software.

The version of BASIC is the best I have ever seen.  However, I still don't
use it.

>2. Can I easily get 'foreign' characters (e.g. DEC-Multinationl)?

The version 1.2 software comes with keymaps for several non-US countries,
and I believe that standard default font already includes the umlauts.  You
use the ALT keys as shift keys to type multi-national characters.  

>3. Is there some sort of batch server?

I am not sure what you mean by this.  You can put commands into command
files;  command files support if statements, gotos, text substitution,
etc.  There is a RUN command with will run a command as another process.
So you can do things like:

	RUN EXECUTE MY-FILE.COM "arg1" "arg2"

>4. Is it unrealistic to use it with a composite colour monitor until the
>	long-persistance monitors are available?

If you use a standard television set, you will get a fuzzy picture because
television sets are not very good.  If you have a composite computer
monitor, you will get a better picture (I think).  This may make a good
short term solution.

You do not need to worry about flicker.  The flicker only occurs if you
use interlace mode.  In the non-interlaced graphics modes you can still
get 24 lines of text on the screen.  You would only need to use interlace
if you wanted 48 lines of text on the screen.

As a previous reply states, the official Amiga monitor is pretty aggressively
priced when sold as part of a system.  You may want to see what type of
deal you are given.  The monitor may be cheap.

>5. Can device drivers be user-written without too much pain (particularly
>	print drivers)?

It is easier than almost any other system, but still no small project.

>6. Are 1000s still being produced?

It is pretty official that the Amiga 1000 is not in current production.
Commodore representatives state that more Amiga 1000s may be manufactured
in the future.  (I have heard this from several different Commodore
sources.)  The fate of the Amiga 1000 is still up in the air.

>7. Are the characters generated by the numeric keypad distinct from those
>	of the main keyboard?

The default keymap causes the same ASCII codes to be produced.  However,
the system sees each key as producing a different key code, and sees a
each keypress as two events: a event when the key is press, and an event
when the key is released.  The software will pass all this information to
you, if requested, or you can set up a keymap that causes the keys to
produce a whatever codes you want.

>8. How prevalent are copy-protection schemes which would hinder the use of
>	an hard disk.

There are several good programs which remove copy protection.

>9. Can the same task image run simultaneously from more than one process?

Different tasks can run the same program if they wish.  However, each task
will have a complete private copy of program file loaded into memory.  Thus,
programs are not shareable.

On the other hand, software may be bundled into shareable objects called
libraries.  A library is dynamically loaded during execution time, and
the same copy of the library is used by all the tasks using the library.
The standard system routines for graphics, I/O, event handling, icon
handling, floating point math, etc are all organized into libraries.


>12. Symbol substitution/aliasing?

In the standard CLI, yes and no.  The CLI just tries to run program
whose name is the first token on the command line.  The CLI doesn't
really care about the name.  Thus, you can rename the "Delete" command
to "Del" or "Remove" by just renaming the name of the file containing
the utility.  You can also assign logical named to a program and run it
that way:

	Assign X: C:DELETE
	X: oldfile

To delete "oldfile".

>13. Command line recall/editing?

No.

>Lastly are there any questions I could ask the sales person to find
>out if they know what they're talking About.

Computer store salesmen never know what they are talking about.  Sigh!

    re multinational characters:
    
    The Amiga uses the same codes as DEC multinational (with one or two 
    minor [?] differences). All the common Umlauts are the same as DEC, 
    though.
    
    There's nothing you need to do to output them to the screen (or
    printers, if yours can do it) because the codes are unique;
    if you want to input them in any greater numbers do a 'setmap d'
    or whatever that sets the keymap and makes your keyboard behave
    like (in this case) a German keyboard. The keycaps don't change
    though... but if you can touch-type on a non-US keyboard it shouldn't
    matter.
    
    The Amiga is sold here with some sticky labels you can glue on the
    keycaps to turn the German keyboard into a 'dual' German-US keyboard.
    A little messy, but it will do the trick. Maybe you can get this
    ECO from Commodore for your favorite keyboard layout...
    
    And, yes, � screws up AmigaBasic...

	Thanks for all the replys so far.  I have found that the accents
are available with the U.S. keyboard.  To get �, for example, one would type
ALT-K,u.  It's possible to get ',`,^,~, and " as accent marks.  I haven't
determined if they work with all characters, or just a subset.

	On the monitor.  The 1080 is not free!  I know of a place that will
sell the 1000 without it for $295 less than with it.  Yes, it's not a
terrible monitor, however, I have 'fast eyes' and the flicker bothers me even
in 'low-res'.  I still expect to have flicker problems with the composite
monitor (that's why it's sitting in the attic), but at least I will have $295
that I can put toward a long persistence monitor.

Mark

    Hmm... I am confused... in the default Workbench screen mode, 640
    x 200, a non-interlaced 60 hz signal is used, and interlaced is
    optional.  Likewise the 320 x 200 lo-res mode.  If you can discern
    60 hz flicker, you do have very sensitive eyes.  Can you notice
    flicker on a Mac or an Atari ST?  These mono systems use a 70 hz
    scan rate.
    
    Oh, if you are in Europe, I guess the non-interlaced scan rate is
    50 Hz, which would be much more annoying...Europeans desperately
    need the long-persistance monitor.
     

	I'm in Nashua, so the line voltage is 60 Hz.  I can perceive flicker
on the colour ST, and sometimes on the Mac (depends what's on the screen). I
have never noticed on the monochrome ST (I've only seen one once).

Mark

Re: .10

Do you have fluorescent or incandescent lighting?  There is a strobe effect
with fluorescent lights that does not exist with incandescent lights.

	I have incandescent lighting (I know about fluorescents), but most
of the stores I've seen these in have had fluorescent lights.  I've never
seen an Amiga or ST monitor out of the store, so don't know if it would be
as bad.  I've seen mac monitors in incandescent light, and didn't notice the
flicker then.  I don't know if the flicker would be bearable in incandescent
light, or not.  I know that if I get a monitor that I can't see the flicker
on in a store (with fluorescent light), then it will be safe at home under
incandescent light.  Admittedly, this may be overkill, but I don't know what
other option I have.  I DON'T want to buy the monitor on the assumption that
I will get it home and everything will be great, only to find this is not the
case.

Mark

    Here's a simple suggestion... try looking at an Amiga or ST monitor
    with sunglasses on... if the flicker is reduced, then you may be
    a candidate for a 'Jitter Rid', which is a simple contrast reducing
    filter.  I use one on my Sony monitor in 640 x 400 interlace mode
    all the time, and it removes all perceptible flicker.
    
    By the way, the default Workbench colors are about the worst possible
    combinations.  High contrast enhances the perception of flicker.
    I set my Workbench colors to light blue text on a black background.
    Here again, the perception of flicker is largely physiological,
    and my eyes have a rather long time constant.
    
    If you want a sneak preview of a long-persistance monitor, take
    a drive down to the Memory Location in Wellesley MA.  They have
    several long phosphor models out on display, including lab grade
    Electrohomes and Thomson models.  These monitors are in the $700
    price range, but you could at least see if the long-persistance
    route is the solution for you.
    
    If this doesn't work, then I'd have to recommend a mono ST, which
    has the most rock-steady monochrome I've ever seen.  I hate to see
    you go that route, since (in my opinion) the ST is an all-around
    much less capable machine.

	I'm fairly confident the long-persistance monitor will solve my
problem.  An ST is NOT an acceptable solution.  I'd rather go without a
computer.

Mark

    I forgot to mention ...
    
    If your life can somehow go on for a few more months without an
    Amiga, you might want to consider waiting for the A2000 to start
    shipping.  There were rumors of a de-interlacing card being made
    available for the 2000.
    
    Even if CBM did not provide such a card, the potential for fame
    and riches for whoever creates one is so large that it is inevitible
    that one will soon appear.
                                      
    There have also been persistent rumors of monitors that store two
    interlaced frames and recombine them, but I haven't seen one of
    these beasts yet.
    
    The lack of a non-interlaced 640 x 400 color mode is without a doubt the
    biggest drawback to this otherwise fantastic machine.
    

	A few observations now that I've learned more.

>4. Is it unrealistic to use it with a composite colour monitor until the
>	long-persistance monitors are available?

	No, the display isn't bad at all.  While an RGB monitor would be nice,
I can wait while using the composite.  The flicker was annoying, until I changed
the colours with preferences.

	What is unrealistic is expecting to use the machine with only one
disk drive and 256K memory.  It takes eight reads and eight writes to copy
a disk.  More memory is a high priority.

	Now, another question.  What is safe to remove from the Workbench V1.2
disk?  As shipped it is just about full, and I'd like to have room to work
while not trashing anything important.

	For those that haven't figured it out yet, I bought an A1000 last night.
Is there someone in the Nashua area (I work at Spit Brook, and live across the
street) who'd be willing to put a VT100 emulator with Kermit and ARC on a disk
for me?

Thanks,
Mark

    Congratulations on your purchase.  Your first priority should be
    to get the 256K Chip memory cartridge upgrade, and a 2nd floppy.
    You might try mail order (Abel Supply) on these items.
    
    As far as unnecessary WB stuff, I immediately purge all printer
    files that I don't need.  These are in the DEVS/PRINTERS sub-directory.
    There are a bunch of worthless command files in the C directory,
    such as EDIT, DISKDOCTOR, SEARCH, JOIN, and others...
    
    You can also purge the DEMOS directory.  I find I can have an adequate
    WB using about 500K.  This include FONTS, FORMAT & DISKCOPY, AND
    about 25 CLI commands.
    
    Directories that are essential are the LIBS and L directories,
    since these contain the disk-validators and RAM-handlers and IEEE
    math routines.
    
    Oh, yes..you might consider picking up CLIMate, and neat mouse-based
    directory utility that can purge entire hidden directories with
    simple mouse clicks.  There are also several PD utilities that
    accomplish much the same thing, only not as gracefully.  Any one
    of these goodies will save much repetitive typing from the CLI.
    
    AS you become more familiar with the machine, I think you'll be
    amazed by the quantity and quality of PD stuff available.  The Amiga
    seems to be the choice of some of the best hackers.
    
    
    

	Yes, even reading this notes file I've been impressed with the
amount (and, if the reports are accurate, quality) of the public domain
software.  Unfortunately, I need a way to get it to my Amiga.

	Thanks for the tips on cutting down Workbench.

Mark

	A couple of people have kindly offered to put the software I need on
a disk for me.

Mark

	I've now been playing with the machine for about a week, and one
more (for now) question arises.

	I have a Gemini-10X printer that is supposedly 100% compatible with
the Epson printer supported by preferences.  I've used the printer for years
with the Grappler+ interface in my Apple set to use codes for the same Epson
printer, and had no problems printing text, or graphics.  I connected the
printer to the Amiga, and set preferences to EPSON.  Text prints fine.  Graphics
would be wonderful if it wasn't for the white space between scan lines.  So
far I've tried using the 'graphics dump' program that comes with V1.2, and
the notepad 'print as graphics' option.  In both cases, it prints a 'line' of
graphics which is nice and clear, and uses proper shading, moves the paper up
too much, and prints another line following this white space, until it has
printed the whole image.

	My question then is, What's going on?  I don't have doc for the printer
anymore, so I tried setting the switches in the back to every possible 
combination, with no change.  Is this a known problem with the Amiga, or is
it a case of '?Bad user on device'?  Any suggestions?

Mark

    We've got a Gemini 10 printer, and have the same problem.  Having
    been through this before with several graphic dump utilities on
    other machines that we used to have the printer connected to, I've
    come to the conclusion that earlier models of this printer don't
    do the Epson emulation correctly.  The precise failure is that when
    it receives a line of graphic data, it'll advance a line feed's
    worth of whitespace when it's through (it's not supposed to do this),
    then, because the driver on the computer doesn't know that the printer
    just did this, the driver sends a new line, or some such to advance
    the paper.
    
    The net effect is that the paper gets advanced twice between each
    line of graphic dump data.
    
    The two ways out of this are:
    
    1) Write your own special print driver that takes this "feature"
    into account.
    
    2) Call the manufacturer and try to get newer rev ROMs for the printer.
    
    I know for a fact that newer revs of that printer didn't share this
    disease.

         
    I don't have an epson printer and this is probably totally wrong,
    but, anyhow...
    
    I seem to recall some of the printer drivers were doing this and it
    could be corrected by changing the settings in preferences.  For
    example, the number of lines per page.  Unfortunately, I don't know
    any details about what you should change.  Maybe someone out there
    has done this and can remember what they changed.
    
    steve

    If you check the Utilities data library on Plink, you will find
    about a dozen drivers for the Star 10x/SG10/*** printers.  Just
    download a bunch of them and try them out.  If you have problems,
    e-mail me and I'll try to get you a driver for your specific printer.
    
    Ed Acciardi JAKE::ACCIARDI
    

    .22:
    
    Well, the problem I was refering to exists on just about any kind of
    machine that I care to connect the printer to, so I doubt that it's a
    preferences option, other than what can be solved by the inclusion of a
    different print driver as .23 suggests. 

RE:.21

	I do have one of the earlier versions of the printer but have never
had this problem before.  I've only used it with the Apple //e, through both
a Grappler+ (set to Epson) and an Epson interface.  In neither case did I have
this problem.  Still, perhaps this may do it.

	Is there anyone on the net who has a working printer driver for a
Star Micronics Gemini-10X?  I'm not on PLINK, so I can't get to those drivers.


Thanks,
Mark

    Try setting the paper size to CUSTOM (as opposed to NARROW TRACTOR,
    WIDE TRACTOR,...) in preferences.  There is a hack in EPSON driver that
    is supposed to eliminate the white spaces you are seeing.  It is
    activated by the above setting. 

	Well, this is interesting.  I set my paper size to custom, and graphics
dump works fine.  I remembered I also wanted to change the margins for text,
so I changed them to 1 and 80 from the default of 5 and 75.  Graphic dump prints
garbage.  Change them back to 5 and 75, graphic dump works fine.  Next, I tried
the notepad, set to 'print as graphics'.  Small and Large work fine, Medium and
Auto-size print garbage.

	Thanks for the info,
Mark

    Gemini 10-x printers are not 100% Epson compatible.
    
    The Gemini 10-x is not a supported printer on the Amiga either under
    V1.1 or V1.2.
    
    Refer to page 5-3 of your Amiga Intro Guide for details on supported
    printers. Page 5 of the V1.2 release notes also provides additional
    info for V1.2 supported printers.
    
    I have used software written for the Epson printer of a C128 that
    will not print correctly on an Gemini. Dems da fax.

    The Grappler interface is probably supplying the compatibility for
    the Gemiini much the same way the GWhiz interface allows Epson printers
    to work as Commodore Printer compatibles for 64's and 128's. I'll
    keep an eye out for a Gemini printer driver.
    
    Paul

    I have uploaded a Gemini10X printer driver to 
    AUTHOR::USER:[MACDONALD.PUBLIC.AMIGA]GEMINI.DRI
    
    Use Kermit to download it.

Re: .29 (or .28 - whichever one mentioned the Grappler providing the capability)

	I could buy the bit about the Grappler fudging the compatibility if
it weren't for the fact that I've also printed graphics through an Epson
interface.

Re: .30

	Thanks, I'll give it a try when I get home.

Mark

	Well, I downloaded the driver, and set preferences to use it.  While
there, I set my margins to 1 and 80 again, and set the paper back to narrow
tractor.

	Graphics dump gave me garbage.  I set my paper back to custom, and my
margins back to 5 and 75, and Graphics dump worked fine.  I then tried the
notepad.  Print Small worked fine, and Medium gave me garbage, as with the
Epson driver.

	Thanks for trying,

Mark

    Well, using the normal Epson driver, custom paper and margins of
    5 and 75 gives me ...
    
    The same old double spacing.  Like I said, ancient ROMs.  This thing's
    even incompatible in this respect with other (newer) Gemini 10 printers
    (this one's a 10, not a 10x).
    
    Guess I'll give the other print driver a shot ...