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Conference hydra::amiga_v1

Title:AMIGA NOTES
Notice:Join us in the *NEW* conference - HYDRA::AMIGA_V2
Moderator:HYDRA::MOORE
Created:Sat Apr 26 1986
Last Modified:Wed Feb 05 1992
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:5378
Total number of notes:38326

334.0. "Amiga 2000 Review in March Byte" by AUTHOR::MACDONALD () Wed Feb 18 1987 08:18

    The Amiga 2000 is the subject of the length Byte Magazine product review
    with numerous pictures and pricing information. Although the list
    is suggested to be less than $1500, the price will rise, rise, rise,
    with the addition of a few internal periphs and board, although
    not
    terribly out of line with A1000 pricing of extras. 
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
334.1When Will We See It?NAC::PLOUFFWed Feb 18 1987 09:053
    Hot rumor from Boston Computer Society  Amiga group meeting last
    night:  Byte and Amiga World are mailing issues this week in response
    to Compute!'s jumping the gun.  This is about a week early if true.
334.2ECC::JAERVINENimpersonal nameWed Feb 18 1987 09:2423
    There's an article in the last issue if 'Computer Pers�nlich' about
    the Amiga 2000. It contains very detailed photos of the motherboard
    and the 8088 board.
    
    The motherboard has 7 expansion slots; three Amiga-only, two
    Amiga/XT/AT and two XT. The 8088 board goes to one of the 'triple'
    slots, leaving either 2 XT + 4 Amiga or 2 Xt + 1 AT + 3 Amiga slots.
    
    The 8088 board has a 128 kbyte buffer RAM for interprocessor buffer,
    and 512k RAM for the 8088. It also seems to have sockets for
    another 512k RAM. The 8088 board benchmarked to withing 1% of
    a real XT speed (it also runs at 4.77 MHz) (except a NOP loop,
    which was 4% slower...).
    
    There are special slots for CPU expansion (e.g. a 68020) and video.
    
    Kickstart is now in ROM (V1.2).
    
    The clock has a battery back-up.
    
    The keyboard has the cursor keys in a 'T' configuration; the numeric
    keypad has the same configiratin as on a LK201 (but different labeling).
    
334.3MUNICH::ORAFri Feb 20 1987 04:1115
    Also, the last issue of Data Welt had a fairly detailed description
    of the Amiga 500. It looked really nice; if the price is right,
    it should really make good competition for the cheaper Ataris.
    
    The expansion slot is now on the left;they couldn't verify whether
    it is fully compatible with the 1000. However, at least their sidecar
    wouldn't even physically fit..
    
    There's a small removable cover in the bottom; you can istall a
    RAM expansion/clock board without disassembling the whole thing.
    
    Also, according to the article, production of the Amiga 1000 has
    ceased; the 2000 is already being manufactured in the Braunschweig
    plant. (BTW; my 1000 says 'made in Japan...').
    
334.4BAGELS::BRANNONDave BrannonFri Feb 20 1987 11:202
    re: .-1  does Data Welt mention the price for the Amiga 500.  If
    so, please translate it to US dollars.
334.5ECC::JAERVINENimpersonal nameWed Feb 25 1987 05:1910
    Various rumors say it will be around DM 1300. Translating this into
    dollars isn't probably very meaningful (though it would be about
    $700). The cheapest sources currently sell a comparable A1000 (512k,
    without monitor) for DM 1700. However, if the 1300 is a 'list' price
    (list prices are forbidden here), then the usual HiFi supermarket
    around the corner would probably sell it for something like DM 1100.
    
    BTW, according to the article(s), the A500 has the fat Agnus chip.
    (The 2000 doesn't).
    
334.6FAT-Agnus in the 500TUBED::GRAYWed Feb 25 1987 21:285
    As of last weekend, C-A denied the fat-Agnus chips (with 1k x 1k)
    would be ready for "at least a year...  ...possibly two."  But then
    again, we know how C-A is with stuff like this!!   (BTW: notice
    the A2000 has a PCB marked A2500!  --This confirms an earlier report
    that the original A2000 product (a 68010 machine) was axed...)
334.7ECC::JAERVINENimpersonal nameThu Feb 26 1987 05:066
    Hmmm... I don't know... the article definitely called it a fat Agnus
    but only mentioned it's good for addressing more (1 MB?) of RAM.
    I'll have to have a look again on the picture of the PCB - somewhere
    it aslo said that the new Agnus chip has much more pins than the
    old one... but maybe this is only a semi-fat Agnus?
    
334.8Impression on A2000, or my $.02BACH::TENNYDave TennyThu Feb 26 1987 14:0519
I read the BYTE article yesterday,
my interpretation of CHIP vs. FAST in the A2000 is that
the A2000 still won't address more than 512k CHIP memory,
even though it will be marketed with 1meg. (the rest is FAST memory).

Did I read this correctly?

It looks like the A1000 will pretty much be able to do everything the
A2000 does, but that the A2000 is more nicely packaged, and probably
more cost effective in the long run for adding peripherals.
It all the above mumbo-jumbo is true, then I don't feel so bad,
because I don't think my machine has been replaced by the next generation
Amiga yet.

In short, the A2000 doesn't add any new capability other than more power,
slots, and possibly a better engineered 8088-68000 setup.

	Dave
334.968020 expansion, tooTARKIN::SWONGERWhat, me worry?Thu Feb 26 1987 14:356
    As far as I can tell the only other significant change (other than
    the ergonomic ones, which look good to me) is the slot for the 68020
    card. Sice this is on the 68000 bus (NOT the expansion bus) it should
    provide a better way to give the A2000 more muscle.
    
    Roy
334.10i really don't know how to say this, butRAINBO::BANKSIn Search of MediocrityThu Feb 26 1987 14:59125
I read through the article in Amiga World (or whatever that mag's name is), as
well as what's been said both here and on the USENET.  While I think that the
2000 looks like a pretty neat product, I'm sort of dissatisfied with CBM's
general direction.  I really don't know how to state my feelings without
sounding like I'm flaming irrationally (which, perhaps I am), because that
sort of strong feeling really doesn't describe it.  I think it tends more 
towards being impressed by the new product, but disappointed and confused at
the direction being taken regarding the 1000. 

Bear with me here.

To the point: We (VAXWRK::Praetorius and I) purchased an Amiga 1000 system
back when Omnitek got its very first shipment way back (if "way back" applies
to the computer world) in the fall of '85.  We paid full price for a fully
configured system (sans monitor), and since then have been anxiously awaiting
just about anything from CBM.

The software problem was pretty much taken care of to our satisfaction a
few months after we got the machine after we'd finally (with Omnitek's help)
managed to buy a developer's kit.  The hardware, however, is a completely
different issue.

The thing that gets me about the hardware is the "fully configured system",
meaning 512K, two drives, period.  Between then and Genlock, about the only
hardware upgrades from CBM concerned themselves mainly with IBM PC compatibility
(transformer, sidecar), and not really with the hard core Amiga user.  Just
about anyone who's had one of these 512K 2 drive systems for any length of
time has at one point wanted a bit more memory and a bit more disk space. 
Getting them from Commodore has been difficult to say the least, as they don't
even really give you a supported way of putting a third floppy drive on the
system.

Now, I understand that the sidecar gives me a partition on an IBM hard disk,
but to get it, I have to pay for an IBM PC that I don't want, and have to pay
for it again in a big hunk of desk space that doesn't seem worth the payback
in what I'm getting. (Granted, it's a good deal if you want IBM PC 
compatibility, but I don't).

And, of course, I can get both memory and disk upgrades from the third party
vendors, but that option has me even more scared.  First, because we're on
our third iteration of what expansion busses should look like.  (First was the
extension of the edge connector, or something like it, second was Zorro, and
now, with the 2000, they've changed the physical dimensions of the Zorro boards,
and according to Amiga World, even moved a couple of signals around).  Even
beyond this, if you believe what you read in the ads, there are varying
interpretations of Zorro from vendor to vendor, so you're not even ensured
compatibility.

Even disregarding the expansion bus compatibility issue, looking at the
components themselves isn't really reassuring either.  First, you have everyone
and his brother tacking things onto the parallel port (A-Time, Digiview,
Microbotics hard disk, etc).  I can see things get to the point where you have
a half dozen little cigarette pack sized widgets glued to your serial port,
all doing something other than what the serial port is usually used for.

Next, you have the people plugging cards right onto the edge connector coming
out the side, some of which "pass the bus", and some that don't.  Right off 
the top, one that doesn't pass the bus is going to make further upgrades
difficult.  And, even the ones that do pass the bus don't guarantee that the
next thing you plug in is going to work.  In particular, I've read pretty
scary things about the fanout on those edge connector conductors, that lead
me to believe that anything more than one device may well be exceeding the
design tolerances of the underlying electronics.  So, even if I do put an
edge connector memory upgrade on it that does pass the bus, I'm not guaranteed
that a Zorro rack would still operate when plugged into the side of the
memory upgrade.

All the while, virtually all these options are nickel and dimeing the power
pins that you're not supposed to draw any major current off of.  Of course,
taken singly, they're probably ok, but once you have a stack of them, I
wouldn't be surprised if things started flaking out down the line.

All of this has left both of us in a state of fear concerning the whole thing.
We'd sort of like to see Commodore straighten the mess out.  What we figured
they'd do (sooner or later (and no doubt after all the third party developers
debugged the concept for them)) is come out with an expansion box that would
be in CBM spec (by definition), drawing no more power or fanout than allowed,
and supplying everything else it needs (by way of power) internally.  Then,
we'd envisioned a hard disk controller, memory upgrade, and maybe things like
internal clock/modem, another serial or parallel port, etc.  Outside the box,
maybe they'd offer a third and fourth floppy drive upgrade.

With these admittedly naive visions dancing in our heads, we pictured a world
in which we'd upgrade our trusty old 1000 system over the next couple of years,
and while there'd be new things coming along, we'd still have room to grow in
our good ol' system.  On top of that, once CBM had once and for all nailed down
the proposed standard by selling something that conformed to it (an therefore
implicitly defined what the standard really meant), the third party people
wouldn't be making products that were so divergent, or with so much potential
incompatibility.

So far, none of this has been forthcoming.  No memory, no hard disk, no
expansion floppies.

So, along comes the 2000.  Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm as pleased as
punch that CBM is actually showing formal continued support for the Amiga line
by introducing two new models that continue the theme, and are compatible (at
least in the software sense) with their predecessors.  And, at the same time,
they're introducing two memory upgrades, and a hard disk controller (as well
as other goodies).  Assuming the last two items aren't vaporware, I'd be
equally happy about their existance if there was some supported CBM way of
plugging them into our 1000.  So far there isn't.

So, I'm a bit disappointed.  While I sort of expected those upgrades a year
ago, better late than never.  I'm also hoping that they'll come along with
a CBM supported Zorro box that'll take the A2000 boards, but plug into the
A1000, but I'm not getting the sense that they're going to. 

And that's really the crux of it:  All issues about how pissed off the hardware
developers might be aside, how does the average A1000 owner/user feel about 
this?  We've been about as loyal as you can be to the Amiga since it was
available to end users, and have faithfully stuck with it.  All we've really
wanted all along (and I have told CBM reps in person) is some real hardware
expansion for our machine.  The response we get (although not meant to be
personal) is a new machine.  We want the upgrades?  Pitch the old 1000 (with
virtually no resale value against the 500 on the low end and 2000 on the high
end) and spend another couple grand for an A2000, second floppy and Composit
video converter (since we like to record a couple of things), just to catch
back up to where we started.  All this in the name of finally getting the
expandability that we thought we had all along.

I guess I'm not even looking for a CBM supported trade-in policy (although it
would certainly be welcomed).  I'd just sort of like to see an official CBM
Zorro box that'll take all those neat memory and disk upgrade cards they just
announced for the 2000.  Anyone got any rumors on something like that?
334.11BAGELS::BRANNONDave BrannonFri Feb 27 1987 04:0819
    if CBM doesn't make the box, other companies will.  The main problem
    with hardware expansion so far has been the lack of an expansion
    box from CBM.  Other companies had to fill the void with their
    interpretation of preliminary Zorro specs.
    
    The A2000's slots have finally set the standard in concrete.  I
    like the idea of having Amiga slots and PC slots.  I'm not too
    thrilled with the idea of a $500 board needed to bridge between
    the Amiga and PC slots.  But as a general direction - multiprocessor
    support, shared hard disks, future 68020, future 80286, i like it.
    
    For the A1000, DMA SCSI hard disks and internal memory expansions are
    starting to appear.  The level of third party support is based on
    the size of the potential customer base.  I guess the Amiga
    market is large enough now.  Or the volume of sales for "Defender
    of the Crown" helped get it noticed.  Remember that the A500 and A2000
    are vaporware until CBM starts actually selling them.  
    
    -dave
334.12Another Opinion...LEDS::ACCIARDIFri Feb 27 1987 08:1040
    Perry Kivolowicz of ASDG has promised that his firm, creators of
    the ASDG Mini-Rack and recoverable RAM disk, will provide a Zorro
    box with a A1000 footprint (stacks on top, ala Pal) that will allow
    one to build their 1000 into a 2000.
    
    Not being a hardware type, or software type (guess that makes me
    vaporware?) I don't know how feasibe or desireable ASDG's scheme is.
     
    Re. .10, I personally am pleased as hell about the A500 and A2000,
    especially the A500.  Some people have predicted that the A500 could 
    sell a million units.  Several messages on the Atari USENET have 
    predicted the demise of the 1040 ST in the face of the A500.  I don't 
    know if this is really possible, nor do I wish it to happen.  But the 
    mass market version of the Amiga could in many ways be more important 
    than the A2000.  I can see the big software houses' ears perking up at 
    the clinking of cash register draws.  I understand your frustration at 
    CBM for not leading the way, and for vacillating over the Zorro spec for
    so long. But remember, CBM has been half-dead for the past two years.
    
    I think some comparisons with other companies' upgrade policys might
    make you feel better.  Consider upgrading an Apple ][e into a ][GS
    
    	][GS Motherboard.....	$500
    	RGB Monitor.....	$500
    	3.5" Floppy x 2 ...     $800
    	                        ----
    			       $1800
    
    Sure, an upgrade path is available, but at enormous cost.  Plus,
    at present, the ][GS is virtually incapable of even running ][e
    software due to incompatibilities between the GS and e floppy disk
    controller cards.  
    
    I am not making excuses for CBM, but I think they did the right
    thing with the new machines.  I don't know what your computing
    requirements are, but I personally don't need any Pee Cee software.
    If I can buy a fast hard drive for around $700, I will be as happy
    as a clam.  
    	
    
334.13just got this from VNSBAGELS::BRANNONDave BrannonFri Feb 27 1987 17:099
 Commodore - Aims to continue rebound
   The company is betting its future on two new models of its Amiga machine,
 which are expected to be unveiled in Europe early next month. Designed for
 the business market, the Amiga 2000 will be priced at around $1,500, excluding
 a monitor. The Amiga 500 is a $600 machine that Commodore officials hope will
 attract the millions of owners of the company's low-priced home computers.
 "The Amiga has to be the major growth vehicle for our company," says
 president & CEO Thomas Rattigan.
	{The Wall Street Journal, 26-Feb-87, p. 6}
334.14A2000 at CMO (Penna.)HJUXB::SCODAThu Mar 19 1987 11:4714
    The latest copy of BYTE (April?) had an add by CMO (Computer Mail
    Order) 1-800-233-8950 . The add listed A500 and A2000, and said
    to call for price and availability.
    
    A500 no price, no date when they will be available
    A2000  base system (no monitor) $1399  April to May timeframe
    A2000  with 1080 monitor & PC option - special future offer $1939
    
    
    Is the 1080 an OK monitor for use with the A2000 ? 
    
    Oh yeah, didn't ask if the PC option included a 5.25 disk...
    
    Dave
334.15Amiga 2000 with 1080 MonitorTLE::RMEYERSRandy MeyersThu Mar 19 1987 15:4232
Re: .14

If you are asking, "Does the 1080 work with the 2000?"  The answer is yes.
In fact, the only monitor that has been shown with the 2000 in all the
pictures in the magazines is the 1080 monitor.  At the Boston Computer
Society meeting, a 1080 was used when demoing the 2000.

If you are asking, "Is the 1080 the best monitor to get?"  The answer is
more complex.  The 1080 is not the best monitor, however, it has been
maligned far more than it deserves.  Really, the 1080 does not damage your
retina as some over enthusiastic boosters of other monitors would claim.
The 1080 is slightly fuzzy, and does a poor job with interlace output of
mode of the Amiga, but I find it quite serviceable.  (I spend many hours
sitting in front of it.)  When I bought my Amiga, the package price made
the 1080 so cheap, I couldn't justify the expense ($300 more) of getting a
better monitor.  I haven't regretted that decision yet.

However, the only monitor that I have seen that did a good job with interlace
output from the Amiga was a long persistence phosphor monitor.  Commodore
has announced two new monitors for the Amiga, and one of the monitors is
a long persistence phosphor monitor for $500, about one-half the price of
such a monitor in the past.  That monitor may turn out to be the "best"
monitor for an Amiga, if the persistence is not so long as to cause smearing.
Unfortunately, no one has published pictures of that monitor, and no
shipment dates have been announced.  This could mean that there will be
a long delay before you can buy such a monitor.

Visit your local computer stores and look at the displays on a few
color monitors on various computers to get a feel for what is good
display quality and what is poor.  Two good monitors to compare with
the 1080 are the ST color monitor and the Sony 1311 monitor with TV
tuner.  The 1080 will be in third place, but you can judge by how much.