Conference hydra::amiga_v1

Associated Press Mon 15-SEP-1986 16:01                         Apple Computer

   New Apple IIGS Offers New Graphics and Sound at $999
                     By THOMAS MURPHY
                   Associated Press Writer

   SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Apple Computer Inc. on Monday announced a
fast new member of its Apple II microcomputer family combining
high-quality graphics and sound with a suggested retail price
starting at $999.
   Industry analysts said the platinum-colored Apple IIGS, along
with new add-on equipment and an upgrade kit for the popular Apple
IIe, should boost company sales considerably in the coming Christmas
shopping season and put more pressure on competitors.
   The new computer, almost three times faster than its cousins in
the Apple II family, will be compatible with about 90 percent of the
existing Apple II software and will be suitable for both home and
classroom use, the company said.
   Apple officials said the IIGS will start appearing on store
shelves Sept. 27 with a limited Steve Wozniak autograph version, the
``Woz.'' The company is planning to market a line of 40 new products
to go with it before Christmas.
   The ``GS'' stands for graphics and sound. A chip inside will
allow the IIGS to play up to 15 voices simultaneously for
synthesizing both music and human speech.
   Although the basic computer lists for under $1,000, the
top-of-the-line color monitor is an extra $499 and a 20-megabyte
hard disk drive is $1,299.
   In addition to the five graphic modes now available on the IIe
and IIc, the new computer offers two high-resolution modes that
allow the use of a graphic interface and animation capabilities.
   The Apple IIGS will also feature a new color - platinum - that
will be the new standard color of future Apple computers and
peripherals. The Apple IIc is white; the IIe is beige.
   The standard IIGS will have 256 kilobytes of random-access
memory, but can be expanded to include an internal memory of 1
megabyte.
   The company said the new machine will not make any existing model
obsolete, but will serve customers throughout the market, especially
those looking for advanced graphics and sound.
   ``We took ideas that represent the best of Apple to create a
computer ideally suited for the education and home markets,'' said
Delbert W. Yocam, executive vice president and chief operating
officer of Apple.
   Charles Wolf, an analyst for First Boston Corp., predicted the
Apple IIGS will lead to a ``burst'' of sales in the coming Christmas
shopping season and should also do well when school systems shop for
classroom computers next spring.
   ``I was expecting a price higher than that,'' said Wolf. ``This
machine, as I understand it, will offer features no other machine
has.''
   Wolf hailed the company's ``smart move'' to offer an upgrade kit
for the IIe, noting that customers who buy it may end up buying some
of the new peripherals. ``One thing to keep in mind is that Apple
makes an awful lot of money on peripherals,'' he said.
   Analysts also believe the new Apple will hurt competitors,
including Commodore International Ltd., which has had a hard time
selling its technically advanced Amiga computer.
   ``When I first saw (the IIGS), I said `There's an Amiga in Apple
clothing,'' said Norm DeWitt, an analyst for the market-research
firm Dataquest Inc. in San Jose. ``This could be the final nail in
the Amiga coffin.''
   The company also announced Monday it is cutting the suggested
retail prices of its Macintosh Plus model to $2,199 from $2,599 and
on its Macintosh 512k to $1,699 from $1,999. The Apple IIe is priced
at $829 and the IIc is $940.
   Apple plans to sell an upgrade kit that would give the Apple IIe
the capabilities of the IIGS. The kit, with a suggested retail price
of $499, will be available in the first quarter of 1987.
   Apple reported earnings of $32.3 million on sales of $448.3
million in the quarter ending June 27. That was a long way from the
$698.3 million in sales in Apple's best quarter, which ended Dec.
31, 1984.

    
    I read an article in the new Infoworld talking very briefly about
    the new GS. (It didn't mention the graphics and sound power.) I'd
    say that Commodore had better cut the price on the Amiga by at least
    $200 or go down the tubes. Don't be surprised to see price cuts
    by Apple for Christmas, with the IIe selling for around $500.00.]
    
    Since I don't have an Amiga (I've been hoping to get one), this
    will help speed things up. Either Commodore will kick the bucket
    or the price will come down quick. I hope it's the latter.
    
    Roy

    BAH! I'm so damn tired of the big boys making things legitmate by
    slapping their names on them.  Suddenly this computer niche that
    the Amiga and ST have been carving out will be "sanctified" by Apple's
    blessing.  Bah, again!
    
    Forgive the above ravings.  I just needed to yell.  I hope that
    C/A (mostly C) can get it's pricing sh*t together or we will hit
    the dumper.  There ain't no justice if a computer like the Amiga
    can be laid to rest by a ruthlessly marketed computer that quite
    possibly won't be comparable in value.

    I want to really give the GS a fair look see. I hope I can be
    objective.
    
    Maybe its OS will be even buggier than 1.0, eh?  :^)  We can only hope.
    
    Cooling down now,
    Gary

    I just wonder what happened to the days when Commodore could skin
    the competition alive with insanely low prices.  Seems like Atari
    has picked up that act.  Much as one can dislike Tramiel, he
    knew (knows) how do deal with the competition.  C-A had better start
    cranking out some price reductions way before Christmas, or we'll
    have very expensive doorstops.

    OK, now that my anxiety attack is over, I've had time to think about
    the new Apple ][GS..
    
    First, assuming that ][e compatibility is something wonderful to
    have, they are claiming 90% compatibility...but what does this really
    mean?  I'm no programmer, but I know that the best programs break
    all the OS rules to work their magic...remember when the ][c was
    announced, they claimed 100% ][e compatibility, but that quickly
    fell to about 90%, and the ][c uses a 65C02!  So, I am not yet
    convinced that all the BEST ][e/c stuff will work on day one.
    
    Secondly, assuming that it does, so what?  If you've ever seen the
    ]['s color composite output, you'd vomit.  I had a C'64 for years,
    and the color and graphics (on the Atari 800's, too) were far superior!
    
    Third, no matter what your preferences are, there are about 350,000
    ST's and Amigas out there now, (Mostly ST's, but about 100K Amigas).
    I don't know much, but I think that that is a fairly large installed
    base.  Add to this the fact that most serious development for these
    68000 machines has either just started or is already underway. 
    
    Maybe I'm just mad that Commodore did all the hard work while Apple
    scoffed at a fast color graphics machine, then jumped in with their
    own offering-( a very IBM-like tactic)...
    
    I guess the point of all this is...don't panic, not yet at least.
    
    Any other opinions??

Well, it was pretty un-fun considering how much that press release didn't say.

In particular, it would be interesting to know what kind of hardware that 
machine has in it.  My guess:  Apple seems to be leaning strongly towards
the 65816 chip, so perhaps that's what it's got.  For those of you not
familiar with the 65816:

In general is a superset of the 65C02.  By "In general", I mean that the
compatibility mode will execute 6502 instructions just like a 6502 (preserving
the same bugs, and same clock cycle timing, in fact), while implementing a
whole bunch of new instructions and addressing modes.  That 6502 software
doesn't generally try and make use of opcodes that don't exist on 6502s, this
should yield virtual compatibility with the 6502.  Outside of compatibility
mode, the CPU has a 24 bit address space, 16 bit stack pointer, 16 bit 
direct page pointer ("page zero" if you will) and 16 bit index registers and
accumulator.  A couple extra data and program segment registers and that's
pretty much it.  It's as if they glued 8 bits onto the front of everything.

To the 6502 assembler hacker, this chip contains all the additional addressing
modes and instructions that you wished the 6502 had in the first place.  So,
it can fairly well be viewed as a 16 bit 6502 (with a 24 bit address space),
with most of the turds removed.

How does it compare with the 68000?  Well, it's conceivable that it can perform
16 bit operations faster than the 68000 given comparable clock speeds (I'd
even say probable).  It does not, however have any 32 bit arithmetic, and the
multiply/divide set are 8/16 bit, compared to the 16/32 on the 68000 (by 8/16,
I mean 8*8 gives 16 (sorry for making up my own terminology)).  And, 
unfortunately for the 65816, rather than extending the instruction set to
allow for 8 and 16 bit operations, the programmer must switch processor modes
to get in and out of 16 bit mode (not to be confused with the 6502 emulation
mode).  Makes for very fast instruction fetching, etc, since all the opcodes
fit into one byte, but it makes things a bit tedious for the programmer.

So, anyway, I'd bet that they're going to use this chip.  It solves the 16
bit problem and the 64K address space limitation, as well as offering 6502
emulation in hardware.  In addition, I'd expect to see performance from this
chip comparable to many of the 68000 systems (ST, Amiga, Mac) when NOT running
heaving crunch intensive applications.

I just wish the announcement had a little more detail...

    Infoworld reports that the Apple ][GS uses a 65C816 running at 2.8MHz.
    It also has an SCSI interface (I think). The processor itself doesn't
    scare me - it's slower and no multi-tasking, among other things.
    The GS is also supposed to come with 256k expandable to 1 MEG, although
    I seem to recall Infoworld saying it could use much more than that.
    
    I don't know how much of a market this thing will have. After all,
    it costs around $1300 to get the GS with a color monitor, and it
    won't have any programs written specifically for it for some time,
    just like any computer. If C/A can get the Amiga 2000 out the door
    they would have a real product family, and that could really help.
    
    (At the risk of getting Flame-broiled, I don't consider the 520-1040ST
    combo a family. More like an incomplete computer and a more complete
    computer.)
    
    Roy 

     A 2.8 MHz 65C816 runs a faster bus interface than a 7.18 Mhz (or even an
8Mhz) 68000.  680x/65xx family CPUs operate with 1 memory cycle per clock cycle.
68000s use 4 clock cycles per read, 5 per write.  This comes out to around 357
nsec. per memory reference on the 816, about 585 on the 68K.  The 68K wins some
from having more instructions, auto{in|de}crement and more registers.  The 816
wins some from shorter instructions and indirect addressing modes.  It's fair to
say that there are some things the 68000 probably does faster and some things
(maybe more things) the 65C816 does faster (at the specified clock rates).

     With regard to operation in 6502 mode, I'd say that it's probably faster
than the 68K when doing byte oriented stuff, but definitely slower on words.

     None of the 16 or 32 bit microprocessors is particularly wonderful (with
the possible exception of the J11) from an aesthetic point of view, but what Jay
Miner did for the rest of the Amiga is what sold me on it.  I think that the
520/1040/2080/etc., the Mac and ][GS have got nothing on the Amiga in the
overall architecture department.  If there are nails in the Amiga's coffin, they
must have been put there by somebody who didn't notice the Amiga standing behind
'em, thumbing it's 4096 color, DMA, interlaced, bitblitted, stereo nose at 'em.

									RP

     
    More on GS features, from Computerworld and Business week. (Love
    those libraries!)
    
    It will have two new graphics modes: 640x200 and 320x200. It also
    will have a palette of 4,064 colors. (That sounds strange to me,
    but that's what the article said.) No mention of the number displayable
    in each mode.
    
    It will also supposedly have 15 voices. (!) I don't know about stereo.
    
    PRICE: $999.00 with 256k but NO MONITOR or DISK DRIVE!!! Monitor is
    	$499.00 extra. Price was given aas 1800-1900 for a basic complete
    	system. Twice the price of the Amiga - maybe we're not so bad
    	off after all.
    
    Roy

    Well, if those figures are correct, then they are much less than
    the ones I had heard...768x512 RGBA w/128 colors out of a pallette
    of 4096...with 256k RAM, I dont think there is enough memory to
    support that many bit planes..?? Anyway, it's sounding more like
    an "Apple Amiga" than anything really earth-shattering.  My dealer
    (Computer, not drug) didn't seem all that excited about it, and
    felt that it would take more than an Apple Amiga or an Atari Amiga
    to snuff out the real Amiga...(I hope he's right!!) 

    sounds like you can't port 68000 assembly lang programs to the ][GS 
    without recoding.  That might slow software development for a while.
    
    I wonder if it will end up like the C128 (lots of C64/C128 programs,
    few C128 only programs).  No incentive to write programs to take
    advantage of the extra features until there is a big enough customer
    base.  I'd really hate to spend that much money to just run 8-bit
    Apple programs.
    
    -dave

    According to a rather detailed set of articles on Compuserve the
    IIgs ROM contains a "toolbox" with the same calls found in the
    Macintosh, and Apple is working on a development kit (the article
    called it "Cortland Programmer's Workshop", for lack of an 
    "official" name) that will allow easy porting of Macintosh programs
    written in Pascal or C. There is also a comprehensive treatment
    of hardware and compatibility issues. Is there an Apple II notesfile?
    I'm sure it shouldn't be posted here!
    
    Pat Hardy
    

There's a much more complete technical description of the Apple IIgs in the
September 15 issue of EE Times. It's too long to type in, but the beast
sounds rather impressive to me. The same issue also has some info on new
Atari ST products.

Mark Herdeg

    Impressive??  I got a laugh when the EE Times article referred to
    the ][GS as a "Graphics Wonder" with "near-workstation level" graphics.
    What a joke!!  It has 16 colors out of 4096 in "Super-high resolution
    mode" of 320 x 200 pixels, and 4 entire colors in
    super-ultra-extra-turbo resolution mode of 640 x 200 pixels.  Does
    this guy work for Apple?  The Amiga's rock-bottom, bare-bones, most
    absolute boring mode has TWICE the number of colors in 320 x 200
    mode, four times the number of colors in 640 x 200 mode, and 16
    glorious colors in 640 x 400 mode, which the ][GS doesn't even
    pretend exists!
    
    Even the Atari ST, which has comparable color modes, has a superb
    non-interlaced 640 x 400 monochrome mode.  Where has everybody been for the
    last year and a half?   Low cost, fast graphics machines have been
    around since early '85, and now all of a sudden the world wakes
    up and says "Hey, look at this awesome hunk of graphics stuff!!!"
    
    I dont mind Apple hype, but at least give credit to the guys who
    did the hard work, not the me-too'ers.
                            
    And as far as the "low cost", the $999.00 DOES NOT include a $400.00
    drive, or a $499.00 RGB monitor with which to view these revolutionary
    graphics. So, to assemble a "low cost graphics wonder" with 256K
    RAM, 2 drives and a monitor will lighten you to the tune of $2298.00!!
    I can buy two Amiga's, or two 1040STs, or 3.5 520ST's for that kind
    of money.  
    
    I give Apple a lot of credit for maintaining ][e compatibility,
    but please, lets seperate bullsh*t from reality.

    re: .14
    OK, maybe I was a little harsh on the ][GS in my last note.  After
    all, Apple did a great job on the overall architecture and the sound
    should be fantastic, and the number of slots cant be beat.  I guess
    I blew my stack when I saw EE Times raving about extraordinarily
    mediocre graphics.
                     
    I really think that this machine will be more competition for the
    C-128, but definately is NOT in the same league as the Amiga or
    ST.  Based on price/performance, I think it is in fact one of the
    most overpriced PC's available in the free world.          
    
    By the way, my brother-in-law works for Apple, so there should be
    some interesting fistfights on this subject.  
    
    One interesting point...even if only 10% of ][e/c owners upgrade,
    that is an instant installed base of over 100,000 units.  Kind of
    scary indeed for Commodore and Atari.

    I continually hear people complain about the price of hardware,
    does anyone ever think about how much they spend on software?  Or
    does everyone only use PUBLIC DOMAIN software (freeware)!  You will
    pay $100.00 for a disk worth $3.00 just to RUN someones idea of a
    program, but when you buy hardware you only compare the price?
    
    I have had my Amiga since January and have spent at least $800.00
    in software and disks and don't have much to show for, it is still 
    easier to justify what the computer is worth than the software.  Try 
    to make a $100.00 insurance claim on a $3.00 disk.  My only point
    is buy what you'd like to have and don't use the $$$ as the decider.
    
    For example:  You can save alot of money buying the popular Okimate-20
    color printer for about $250.00 with interface, now it is time to
    buy supplies (like software) these are usually expensive for the
    Okimate-20, paper is specially coated and a ribbon that can only
    be used once, if you use only one color the others go by unused.
    
    Do now you buy a CANNON PJ1080 (cost $269.00 with interface, but
    lists for $795.00), you can use plain paper or clay coated at an
    additional cost (but less that what you pay for Okimate paper) for
    better quallity.  It uses Ink Jets; therefore cost per character
    is much less (about $30.00 every six months).
    
    Anyway don't be cheap, I only look at costs encountered after a 
    hardware purchase, like service, software, add-ons, etc...
    
    -Drew
    

    Sheesh .. never mind software ... its the hardware extras that really
    add up such as printer cables, modem cables, monitor cables, extra
    memory, extra drive, and even 3 1/2" disks at $30 a box for 10!
    
    But its fun.
    
    Do monitor cables appreciate in value?
    
    Paul

    Seems to me that Woz has been using a 65816 machine for almost 3 years
    now.  I can't help but think that Apple is 5 years behind the times
    and way overpriced.
    
      Mikie?

    Just as a point of interest, I was flipping through one of the Apple
    specific magazines the other day and noticed a picture that looked
    vaguely familiar: King Tut.  Evidently, EA is producing a version
    of DPaint for the GS. (Traitorous scum :-)  Imagine Tut in only
    16 colors.  He loses much of his luster.  The graphics would've
    made our jaws hit the floor a few years ago, but after Amiga, they
    pale in comparison.  Me, partisan?  Nah!
    
    They'll have to pry my Amiga from my cold, dead fingers :^)
    Gary

    Just another note about the GS graphics for those who don't read
    the Apple conferences. (I don't either.)  This from a ][GS marketing sheet.
    The 320x200 mode allows up to 16 colors per line and up to 256 colors
    on the screen.  The 640x200 allows 4 or more [their words, not mine]
    colors per line and 128 per screen.  I suspect that it is easier
    for the programmer to have 16 colors per screen and that the 256
    color mode is analogous to the Amiga's HAM mode, in that not all
    that many people will be using it.  At least at first.  However,
    it *does* look good on a marketing sheet and I suspect that it will
    sell a few machines.  
    
    BTW, I've talked to a ][+ owner and a Mac owner who are saying "shrug"
    to the GS.
    
    Gary

    Re. 103.19 <Tut, tut> - caught two photos of Tut on a GS.  It seems
    the good king can be seen at full res. on a half filled screen.
    The full screen version is very block"ish".  Until I see an EA demo,
    I would guess the GS pale in many more areas than was previously
    thought. [The APPLE mag. referred to had Woz., GS and Tut on front
              cover - other photo of Tut was in article]
    

found this in mac notes    

                <<< RAINBO::$2$DUA9:[WASSER]MACINTOSH.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 495.1                Apple IIGS - see 493.2 also                     1 of 1
COLORS::HARDY                                       666 lines  29-SEP-1986 17:54
                    -< Transcript of Compuserve GS rollout >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  (1,Neil/SYSOP)

  This is a special CO to welcome Apple Computer's latest machine
  into... the world of Apple computer users!!! The Apple IIGS has been
  a long time a'coming but most... will agree with me that it has been
  worth the wait!! Here with us tonight are various representatives
  from Apple Computer and some other manufacturers who will be
  releasing (or have released) products for the new Apple IIGS. OK...
  first I would like to turn it over to the Apple Team in Apple Main
  HQ for any opening remarks. Then I will ask what other manufacturers
  are here so we all know what products are being represented. OK,
  Dan, over to you!! Go ahead. 
  
  (1,Apple Team) Good Evening all.  Tonight we're here to celebrate the
  introduction of the new Apple II GS, the new flagship product of the Apple II
  line. 
  
  Tonight we have with us:
  Dan Cochran-Mgr Tools & Languages
  Guy Kawasaki-Mgr Apple Software
  Scott Knaster-Mgr Tech Support
  Pete McDonald-Tech Support
  John Bennett-Tech Support
  Jim Merritt-Tech Support
  Bob Perez-Software Evangelist
  David Eyes-Apple // Languages
  Guillermo Ortiz-Tech Support
  Rilla Reynolds-Tech Support
  Cameron Birse-Tech Support
  Bryan Stearns-Tech Support
  Martha Steffan-Evangelist
  Douglas Sleeter-Evangelist
  and probably a number of other drop-ins.

  Lots of the folks involved in the II GS project are out on the road this week
  but they're here in spirit. We're here to answer any and all questions on
  this new member of the Apple family. 

  (1,Neil/SYSOP) Any other manufacturers that are here please signify this...
  Apple IIGS developers only please... I'll now call on each of you and VERY
  BRIEFLY please, just let us all know what your products are... 

  (1,ON THREE/Bob C.) ON THREE has a line of Desk Accessories for the Apple 3.
  We are currently porting them over.  Release date is expected on the 21st of
  Oct. 

  (1,Steve Park) We are the developers of ProFiler 3.0, a general-purpose
  database manager that runs on the Apple //e, //c, and IIgs Release of our
  product will be through Pinpoint Publishing, hopefully around the first of
  November. 

  (1,Tom Evslin) Solutions is the developer of Glue for the Mac (a print to
  disk capability). Glue IIGS (or whatever) will provide a similar capability
  for the IIGS as well as a way to exchange graphic output with the Mac. 

  (1,John Fachini (KYAN) Kyan is moving over our ISO pascal and programming
  toolkits for the apple iigs, as well as completing development of a high
  powered version of KIX which will provide high level unix feel to prodos 16 

  (1,Lance Jacobs/FCP) First Class Peripherals manufactures the popular Sider
  Hard Disk Subsystem which works just fine on the //GS.  We will be updating
  the Sider's firmw are and software in the future to better take advantage of
  some of the //GS's features. 

 
  (1,Rodney Somerstein) What programs can we expect out soon after the IIGS's
  release... will come with the machine? 

  (1,Apple Team) As part of our introduction effort for the IIGS we've seeded
  250 prototypes with developers in the last six months.  We expect 40 new
  products will be available for the IIGS during the Christmas season,
  including: 

  Paintworks Plus from Activision
  TopDraw from Styleware
  Print Shop from Broderbund
  Newsmaker from Broderfund
  Pageworks from Megahaus
  Fantavision from Broderbund
  Multiscribe from styleware
  and the Finder from Apple Computer.

  (1,Steve Park) Thank you, Apple Team! ProFILER 3.0 will be out before
  Christmas and fully supports the mouse-based environment, complete with
  pull-down menus, dialog boxes, and all the trappings that users of the Apple
  Macintosh have come to expect. 

  (1,John Landwehr) What is the major disk medium (5 1/4 or 3 1/2) and what is
  the format (dos 3.3 or prodos or ??) 
 
  (1,Apple Team) prodos 16, 3 1/2 and 3 1/2! but 5 1/4 does work. Dos 3.3,
  CP/M, Pascal all work in Apple II mode. 

  (1,Barry Fox) First thank you Apple for the new machine, I intend to add one
  to accompany my venerable //e as soon as it hits the stores.  I have a quick
  question.  Will the serial ports provide normal RS-232C support or will they
  require reconfiguring a mess of cables and accessories? 

  (1,Apple Team) It uses the same cables as the Mac Plus.  Apple has no new
  cable products. 

  (1,JAH) HAVEN'T SEEN ANY SPECS.. 16BIT?, CLOCK SPEED?, SLOTS? 

  (1,Apple Team) It is 16 bit, 7 slots (apple style), plus 1 memory expansion
  slot clock speed 2.8 in fast mode, 1 MHz in Apple II mode.  For more info
  type go AOL. PS: Apple II apps can run at the fast speed (except games, etc.,
  if you want to run at "normal" speed. 

  (1,Frank Brown) Lance (FCP), I currently use Thompson's product to boot into
  Prodos... will it be upgraded to prodos-16? 

  (1,Lance Jacobs/FCP) Thompson's modification is not yet shipping as standard
  product. We will eventually give you the capability to direct boot ProDOS 16
  from the Sider and even partition the entire drive for it, if you so desire.
  

  (1,Sean Golden) According to an article in MIS week, this week... the new
  machine will be able to run some Macintosh software... if this is true, will
  it be able to network with a MacServe type network ? 

  (1,Apple Team) This machine is not a macintosh.  The 65816 cannot reasonably
  emulate a 68000.  However, many Mac developers are porting their Mac
  applications, because many  of the tool calls are similar. Mac-like
  applications will be the norm for new GS applications. The GS uses the same
  SCC as found in the Mac. Currently, there is built-in appletalk.  File server
  support is definitely possible real soon now. 

  (1,Neil/SYSOP) Quick followup... Could a 68000 reasonably emulate a 65816
  i.e. Mac running GS stuff later? 

  (1,Apple Team) yes, it would probably do a better job, but emulation overhead
  is so high in all such cases that it's not reasonable to think about it. 

  (1,j.imig) Will ProDos be sold separately from the disk drive? ( do I need..
  to buy a new drive?... And when will the developement... system be available
  for ' the rest of us'? 

  (1,Apple Team) 
  1.  ProDOS (on the system disk) has always been and always will be (oops,
  fast decision just made) 
  1.  ProDOS (on the system disk) will be packaged with the machine.
  
  2.  New drives are sold separately.  By the way, the new system disk is only
  available on 3.5" disks. (In addition to ProDOS, the system disk has many
  tools, etc so its too big for a 5.25" disk) 
  
  3.  Assembler and C compiler will be available through APDA.  Target early
  november. 

  (1,Shawn/SYSOP) Now a followup question from this sysop.... Can we expect
  developer documentation for the public... (a la Inside Macintosh) anytime
  soon? 

  (1,Apple Team) A technical overview is available from APDA now.  Balance of
  documentation also due from APDA early november. 

  (1,Michael Powell) I'll skip the obviously due kudos, Will an
  upgrade/trade-in option be available for those (like me) who have clung to
  their II+? 

  (1,Apple Team) PLEASE continue the kudos, we like them!!! II+ upgrade is
  being investigated. 

  (1,Ken and Dave) as cert. developers we have not recieved the august
  newsletter and we were wondering if developer will be able to purchase the
  apple before the sept date of 27?  and also why only 2.8 mhz?? 

  (1,Apple Team) You should have gotten the August newsletter.  Please contact
  Hazel Holby at (408) 996-1010 to get it.  Next week we are sending the Sept
  one out with more stuff about the GS. The mailing will includes Certified
  Developer pricelist will be in there.  Allocation will be very tight. First
  come first served.  One per developer. 2.8 Mhz because we didn't want to
  cream Atari and Amiga too badly.  What would people build reefs with? 

  (1,Jon Hardis) Is the ][e still in production? 

  (1,Apple Team) yes.  absolutely.  positively. 

(1,Richard Ewing)  Questions:
  1) In a nutshell, how does Prodos-16 differ from the old...
  2) Can we expect the super-res screen to grow in the future (as
  Mac screens appear to be doing now?)...
  3) Is the 65832 microprocessor in your future plans?

  (1,Apple Team) ProDOS 16 includes support for the 65816. This means you can
  call it from anywhere in memory, from full 16 bit mode. The disk format is
  IDENTICAL. The parameter blocks handle 32 bit pointers, etc. 

  832:  Figment of Bill Mensch's imagination.  You can read the upcoming Dave
  Eyes book on it. (heh, heh) 

  (1,Keith/SLARCAUG) In an earlier APPLECO, Mr. Sculley (sp?) mentioned
  possibly doing something special for user's groups with the new machine(s).
  Is anything planned ...and if so, what?  Also, is any other software besides
  PRODOS16 bundled? 

  (1,Apple Team) Ask our Evangelist, for info.  She has some T Shirts made so
  she must be planning something.  (408) 996-1010.  Or leave a message for her
  at 76703,3031. Software:  no applications, its a system disk. Training disk
  is bundled with the system. 

  (1,Dan Neal (PenApple)) first, multiple and sincere kudos! Now the questions..
  1) seriously, why only 2.8 mhz
  2)why the change to platinum casing?
  3)will older peripherals like Disk ][ and Applecat work?

  (1,Apple Team) with compatibility stuff and reliability margins mean that we
  can only run at 2.8 The next convenient speed was too fast for the other
  logic. no problem with the old peripherals. the platinum was because the
  white cases got dirty. and besides we wanted something neutral to go with our
  other machines. 

  (1,Tim Grams)  Two Questions...
  1) Will my Unidisk 3.5 (//e) attach directly to the disk port? connector
  change??
  2) Is automatic slowdown of lower 128k alsways active, given the botto
  64k mapping of base page memory on the 65816.

  (1,Apple Team) The UniDisk 3.5 will plug directly into the disk port. No
  change to the DB-19 for this device. Fast operation is possible in lower 128
  k. Automatic slow down only occurs with disk devices in slots 4-7. 

(1,Harry Conover/STAFF)
  First, congrats all around....
  and, secondly, and MUCH more importantly...
  is there _any_ truth whatsoever that...
  Bryan Stearns wrote the SCSI non-driver ?

(1,Bryan Stearns/Apple)
  No truth whatsoever <grin>.

(1,Gabe Wiener)
  1. I missed the beginning of this CO, so how are we in terms of prices? 
  When will it be in the stores?
  2. How well can the GS work with a macintosh (other than a general serial
   connection?
  3. Howsabout music synthesis? (Any MIDI?)

(1,Apple Team) 
  We're fine in terms of prices.  The question is do you have the mere
  $999 required to purchase the base system (sans monitor and drive).
  The GS will initially be available in limited quantities but units
  should be in dealerships in early October.
  The GS and Macintosh can share peripherals and communicate via
  Appletalk.
  The GS has a built in sound chip capable of 15 voice generation. 
  MIDI would have to come from 3rd party but the note synthesizer
  toolkit commands (RAM-based) parallel very closely the MIDI
  commands. 

(1,Fred Povey)
  About the memory expansion for the GS...
  How much does the card cost? When available? Specs? What chips on
  the card, user-expandable? How and when do you get from 1 to 4 to 8
  megabytes?

(1,Apple Team)

  Apple's memory card is available for $129 with 256K.  It can be
  expanded to 512K, and then to 1 Meg (the 768K increment is not
  supported.)  Third parties (MDIdeas, Applied Engineering) have
  announced boards with up to 8 MB, using SIMMS or 1Mbit RAMS. 

(1,PEABO/ICONtact)
  I had planned to retire my HD-20 and put it on the II GS, but ...
  I found out that the nonSCSI HD-20 is not compatible with the II GS 
  disk software ... is there any possibility of Apple or a 3rd party
  coming to the  rescue for HD-20 owners?

(1,Apple Team) 
  Well, the hd20 does not support daisy chained devices as the 3.5 inch
  devices for the apple// peripherals. It should be possible for a third
  party developer to write a driver to run the hd20 on the apple//gs, 
  but you may not be able to have any other devices on the disk port.

(1,DARREN)
  I LOVE the IIc & its portability with a flat monitor
  and a battery pack.  I need to know if there is a upgrade
  path planned for the IIc so I canuse features of the IIgs ga

(1,Apple Team)
  The //c upgrade path announced this week is a slinky-like 1 MB
  memory expansion card. Current //c owners can swap their
  motherboards to get the memory expansion capability.  There is no GS
  upgrade. 

(1,Tom Dolezal)
  1) Does Appleworks 2.0 exist as rumored? IF so what can we expect...
   Things like graphics creation/merge, mailmerge, relational db's,...
   more WP power?
  2) Is the real-time clock Thuderclock/AE Clock compatible or a new
  type?

(1,Apple Team)

  Appleworks 2.0 is shipping, features mail merge, and a larger
  desktop on the GS thanks to the additonal memory. The GS clock is
  not Thunderclock-like; ProDOS 16 recognizes it and a new ProDOS 8 is
  included on the GS system disk will also recognize it. By the way,
  the new clock DOES include battery ram which saves all your
  preferences which you can set from the control panel. 

(1,Steve Park/ProFILER) 
  ProFILER is designed to complement Appleworks 2.0.

(1,John Thatcher)
  UniDisk 3.5 works on GS, do new drives work with/on //c? And..
 Any possibility of Super-Res expanding to 640X400?

(1,Apple Team)
  good question . . .
  You have stumped the band.
  Consensus is...
  All the smart (port) people say it doesn't work...
  consult your smart dealer for sure.

(1,Eagle I. Berns)
  answer to 640x400 quueston is simple: no.

(1,Dan Neal (PenApple))
  what is the new resolution?

(1,John Thatcher)
  I am assuming that since the new drives are Maccompatible
  that they are basically romless

(1,Apple Team)

  New resolution:  320x200, 16 colors, or 640x200, 4 colors color
  palette is 4096 colors 640 mode has seen some dithering which has
  136 colors at a time (16 good ones) 

(1,Benn Kobb)
  Greetings from Wash DCC...
 We've heard that your GS press kit..
  Lists 20 software titles to come...
  Pray tell, are any of these from the big guns in Macware...
  Like Microsoft, etc.?

(1,Apple Team)
  Of the 250 developers who we seeded with GS products a large number
  of them are indeed from the MacWare kingdom.  The developers listed
  in the press release, etc. are those who wish to identified as
  either shipping or planning to ship GS software.  There are many
  others to come but it's not appropriate for us to preannounce their
  products.  We'll leave that to Infoworld. 

(1,Chef David)
  On the 2e upgrade path, what will be forsaken?
  What about the keypad and the attached mouse?

(1,Apple Team)

  There is no AUX slot on the GS.  Multifunction cards don't work.
  Some (low percentage) software problems due to use of unsupported
  entry points. The IIe keypad connector is included on the II GS and
  will work if you've got it. The IIe mouse will work in slot 4 and
  the desktop bus connector is brought out to the back panel.  So a
  desktop bus mouse will work.  I'm not sure if the mouse is included
  in the upgrade. 

1,Rusty Hodge/SnAPP)
  Does the new SCSI card follow protocol converter standards, and...
  is it possible for a Mac & a //gs to share a HD-20SC via SCSI? <and>...
  Could you talk a bit about the new built in serial ports differences...
  between them and the Super Serial Card.)

(1,Apple Team)

  The SCSI card does follow Protocol Converter standards.  The SCSI
  standard allows multiple CPU's, but ProDOS and the Mac file system
  are different so the disk would need to be partitioned.  We haven't
  tried that. The new serial ports are set up with ROMS at slots 1 and
  2.  To drive them directly is completely different from the Super
  Serial Card. The new serial chip is the same SCC used in the Mac. 

(1,OCR E.T.)
  #1 How about a demo for the Post O. for the LSM and FSM
  trainers with the nwe//new graffics
  also with CATs for the E.T.
  #2 I would like a transportable sys. for away for the ][gs
  (no ][es please) or should I go to a MAC and wait for the 
  open MAC in JAN 87?
  By the way KUDOS to ALL at Apple!!!!!!!!!!!

(1,Apple Team)
  Thanks for the Kudos!!
  1) I have no idea what Post O., LSM, FSM, CATS, or ET is.
  2) The GS isn't a transportable system today and I can't
  even speculate on whether it ever will be. 
  We can't talk about unannounced products.

(1,OCR E.T.)
  Post office Letter sorter mch. Flat sorter mch.

(1,Donald/STAFF)
  With the //gs supporting AppleTalk, will // programs print
  on the LaserWriter?  If so, does a program need to be
  written specially to do so?  Also, congrats on a job well done!

(1,Eagle I. Berns)
  It sure will, we use it all the time to print listings, also
  on something more sophisticated.

(1,John Sculley)
  Hello from Washington D.C.

(1,Richard Ewing)
  omigod!

(1,Apple Team)
  HiBoss!

(1,John Sculley)
  Joe Hutsko is doing the typing!
  Hey TEAM!
  Sorry, the flight was delayed!
  And Joe had some problems breaking into the hotel's telecom.
  Now we are here, please continue while we pour some water...

(1,Neil/SYSOP)
  John Sculley, Apple's CEO is logging into this Conference....
  from a trip to Wash. DC. I'm very happy he could be here and I...
  would like to now turn it over to him for any comments...
  that he would like to make to us...
  John, congrats on a wonderful new machine!

(1,John Sculley)
  (neil, hold on one second, he is getting ice down the hall...)

(1,Neil/SYSOP)
  Let us know when he is back!

(1,John Sculley)
  ok, i will let you know when he is back...
  in the meantime, sorry, the flight was delayed for one hour
  We miss everyone at headquarters.

(1,Neil/SYSOP)
  Joe Hutsko, John's special ass't for technology is with John.

(1,John Sculley)
  (come now boss, can't keep them waiting)
  eh hem.
  continue, Neil and we will  break in when he gets back in the room

(1,Ellen Leanse) "indisposed???"
(1,Richard Ewing) Maybe he went for a Pepsi!
(1,Marc Mandel/OmniSof) Or has he became a cokeologist?
(1,Aaron Munter) C-c-c-catch the wave......C-c-coke
(1,Richard Ewing) Coke CLASSIC! Ask for it by name!

(1,DAVE Z)
  Two Questions:
  1 Since media is going 3.5 (is it?)...
  Can I transfer my 5.25 to 3.5?...
  2. Is the new (anolog) RGB really that good? (close to the Mac? 

(1,John Sculley)
  Ok, back.
  Neil, please ask question again.
  Sorry, I goofed, I left John standing in the hall without my room
  number and the hotel would not tell what it was.
  The phone was online with you guys.

(1,Neil/SYSOP)
  First, I'd like to welcome John to MAUG and...
  to say for all of us that the new machine is truly...
  a wonderful way to make the "Apple II Forever" slogan...
  come alive!!
  Now, let me just turn it over to John Sculley, Apple Computer Inc's,
  CEO for any comments to the group!
  Go ahead, John!

  { silence }

(1,Neil/SYSOP)
  Oooops, I hate to say this....
  But John is not in /STAtus [i.e. logged in] right now...
  Perhaps the hotel phone gave them some problem...
  Well, I am sure that Joe will get them back on!

(1,Ellen Leanse) hum a few bars and fake it??
(1,Neil/SYSOP) Sigh.
(1,lavona rann/TAU) If we had GS's we could listen to music

(1,Apple Team)
  You can transfer Pascal and ProDOS to the 3.5 disks.  Several
  3rd parties have done DOS for the 3.5s.  Of course you can use
  the 5.25" disks on the GS, both in Apple II mode and under
  ProDOS 16.
  GS RGB is 640x200.  Check it out at your dealer.  Pixels per
  square inch aren't the same as Mac but effect is great.  

(1,John Sculley)

  Sorry, we are using an hp portable plus and it keeps dropping the
  line on us...sorry I am very pleased to be here We just arrived in
  Washington hope we are not to late for everyone How do you folks
  like the GS? 

  { enthusiastic cries and screams of "Ship it!" omitted}

(1,John Sculley)

  I have had one on my desk for the last 6 months and no one at apple
  knew it it was inside my //e Eagle did some great software for it,
  I'm hooked! We can take some qestions, then I have to get up early
  for a meeting tomorrow. 

(1,Apple Team) John, when can we get a UFO for the Mariani atrium?

  [Your humble editor blinks suspiciously, but lets it stand.]

(1,John Sculley)
  Actually, that is only a prototype, ten times bigger will the
  shipping version be with SCSI

(1,Steve Park/ProFILER)
  Mr. Scully, while the incredible powers of this new machine are still
  unexplored, there has been some criticism from developers regarding
  the speed of the new graphics mode. Are there plans to bring this
  more in line with the Macitosh performance standards?

(1,John Sculley)

  The same quickdraw as mac is recoded for the GS, and if taken
  advantage of, performance will be stronger. Also, a dedicated
  graphics processor called the VGS , which takes the loa d off of the
  8/16 microprocessor for graphics. As developers get familiar with
  16bit features, I'm sure we will see some great graphics
  applications, with great performance 

(1,John Fachini (KYAN)

  In the Aug. 86 issue of incider magazine, references to about a
  dozen products appeared which were for the as yet unknown 16-bit
  apple.  The companies announced (I think) and broke agreeement with
  apple as far as condifentiality was concertned.  Is this an issue at
  Apple? 

(1,John Sculley)
  (please type small lines, the hp cant handle wrap)
  I don't know the specifics, Guy or Ellen coould answer.
  Go, apple team.

(1,Apple Team)
  John...I'm not aware of the Incider article
(1,Ellen Leanse)
  (nor me...)
(1,John Sculley) 
  Ok.  Sorry, have not heard of that problem.

(1,Ed Triska)
  woulld an appleworks program update be supplied with the gs?

(1,John Sculley)
  A new version of AppleWorks, Rel. 2.0 is now available.
  It takes advantage of expanded memory and adds new features
  like mail merge, sorry, it does not come free with the GS.

(1,Ed Triska)
  would this be at an extra charge
(1,John Sculley)
  Ellen, is there an additional upgrade/trade in?
(1,Ellen Leanse)
  $50.00 at dealers 27 Sept.

(1,Dewayne V.)
  Mr. Scully,  What do you see the role of the new computer/CD-ROM
  products being in the home market?  Do you believe
  this market to be signifcant? 

(1,John Sculley)

  Yes.  It could be really big. The GS is designed to take full
  advantage of CD-ROM with its high fidelity sound (32 oscillators!!!
  15 voices!!!) and advanced color graphics I think the first valuable
  applications will start with library of information  including
  pictures for K-12 education this will extend into the home short
  time after... 

(1,Apple Team)
  (And with SCSI, we can get CD info FAST)
(1,John Sculley)
  Right!

(1,Marc Mandel/OmniSof)
  I have a couple of quickies...first, can you please comment on 
  the Apple pays half deal for the new computer?
  second, can you mention when the price cuts in the Mac take effect?

(1,John Sculley)

  First, this is a promotion on Apple peripherials bought at the time
  that the CPU is purchased and Apple has a rebate of half the cost of
  the peripherials or upto a max of $250. Second, the price cuts on
  the mac should take effect, right away. 

(1,Neil/SYSOP)

  OK, John a question many people are asking. on the Forums here
  is.... When will dealers really have the machines to. sell... and
  just how limited will the. quantities be? What is a reasonable
  period that... most people who want one now could expect to have a
  IIGS in? 

(1,John Sculley)

  First machines should start appearing at dealers on Sept. 27th. This
  is going to take a while to get up to quantities that will meet the
  anticipated demand The IIgs uses five custom chips and we need to
  get experience of producing these chips in large quantities before
  we can get the yields up to a level where there will be enough
  machines for everybody Therefore, I expect that those people who
  won't be able to get a GS before Christmas will probably opt for a
  //e with intention of getting the GS upgrade board.  Upgrade boards
  will list at $499. and we expect to have many quantities of boards
  that we can begin the upgrade board intro shortly after the first of
  the year! 

(1,Neil/SYSOP)
  One last question which has also been a prime...
  topic of discussion on the APPLE2 Forum...
  It was asked here earlier but I know our members...
  would like to hear how you feel about the...
  possibility of extending that upgrade offer to...
  owners of the II+ machines. Go

(1,John Sculley)
  I'm afraid the GS board only fits in the Apple //e case.
  Otherwise, we would have offered II+ owners the same
  opportunity to upgrade.

(1,DAVE Z)
  Will IBM software ever be able to be used on apple IIgs?

(1,John Sculley)

  I know of at least one third party company that is working on a
  coprocessor board for the GS which will allow it to run PC DOS
  software. It's up to the third party developers ot there! 
  
  In closing... I feel the //GS is one of the most exciting events to
  happen since I have been at Apple. This is a no compromise product
  which bridges the Apple //e into the second generation of personal
  computing. The GS has outstanding color graphics, stereo sound and
  AppleTalk communications built in, on the board as well as the
  ability to share peripherials with Macintohs. I think many people
  are already excited that you can print to the LaserWriter with a GS
  over AppleTalk. 
  
  I hope this sets to rest any concerns out there. Apple is really
  comitted to the Apple II forever! I also hope people stop worrying
  that we can't do anything innovative anymore with a computer that is
  coming up on its 10th anniversery Great being with all of you and
  sorry for being so late getting online, this is as bad as our last
  time, we were late. Promise, next time we will be ontime even if we
  have to go online on the plane! 

(1,Apple Team) Good night from Cupertino as well.

{ The conference closed amid blood-curdling war cries directed at
the Amiga, promises of ship dates for new games and compilers,
denunciation of ADA, and pious references to "the Woz". }


    

    
    I went down to Computer Mart 9/29 an saw the Apple GS.The graphics
    looked very good,and the sound was excellent.I felt the overall
    appearence was a little on the cheap side,especially the keyboard.This
    system should be a great seller for Apple.The looks never bothered
    the apple customers in the past,and it appears to be getting a good
    marketing push.the sound was coming from a set of Bose speakers
    and I assume from the volume a small amp, both supplied by Apple.The
    salesmen were all hyped up and waiting for "the mad rush". One of
    the salespersons told me he felt support for the Amiga was long
    overdue an people were tired of waiting for support products. He
    also said he did not know how much longer management was going to
    invest in the Amiga.Of course this same person also said he perfers
    to sell MAc'S and II'es, and haden't bothered to learn much about
    the Amiga. I take a friend in today to PICK UP their Amiga but from
    another salesperson .So now we have a situation where another product
    has entered the market,this time at a higher cost but one that could
    cut into the Amiga deeper than the ST.As good as the Amiga is it
    can't get up and sell itself.All the noticable qualities of the
    Amiga can be mimicked by the Apple,and the public still remains ignorant
    about multitasking etc.In regards to note 103.23 it's my feeling
    that the apple conference should have ended with war cries to the
    Atari ST because in reality it is just a more expensive ST.On the
    high side if the sales personnal don't shut the Amiga off or put
    a box over it we could use the traffic in the store to expand our
    user base
    
    bill
    

re .23:

     I think the general atmosphere of the conference and the attitude and
behavior of most of the participants can be explained by the following
hypothesis: 

	most (not quite all) of the participants are valium addicts and
	Apple is their supplier

I thought that this sort of unbridled sycophantic drivel was restricted to IBM
customers and Marin County TI 9900 users.  I'm all for people being
enthusiastic about their chosen species of hardware or software (the more the
merrier), but this jumps past euphoria and religious inspiration and lands right
in the domain of lobotomy and electroshock.  Imagine a DECUS like this.

							gag me with a magtape,

								Robt. P.

    Arrrggghhhh...I wish I wuz rich enuf to go buy a ][GS just to shoot
    it thru the head in front of the Worcester Computerland store, where
    they recently stopped carrying the Amiga because it "cannot run the
    over 25,000 Apple ][ titles."  To which I replied, "How many people
    need 25,000 pieces of software? Usually 5 or 6 will do the trick"
    
    The part that made me want to barf was when they replied that the
    clock speed was 2.8 Mhz because they "didn't want to cream the Atari
    and Amiga too badly"   
    
    A lot of companies deserve to die for criminal arrogance, but I
    think Apple should be immediately sentenced to bankruptcy for their
    attitude and remarks.  May the ][GS languish in showrooms forever!!!
    

    Just for laffs, I stopped into the Shrewsbury, MA Computerland store
    today to check out a ][GS.  They did not have one, and the salesperson
    claimed that interest was so incredibly low that they would probably
    not even carry the product!  (Heh Heh).

    I checked the GS out yesterday.  Talking about expensive!  For a
    RGB monitor, 1,256kb of memory and two 800k 3.5's was $2,400.
            
    I saw no real increase in performance over the ][e running AppleWorks,
    well, there might have been some but not $1400 worth.  The graphics
    are not as good as the ST which is not as good as the Amiga.
    
    The voice chip is the best I have ever heard!  When you boot it says
    hello in a womans voice and it _sounds_ real.  The voice capability
    of this machine is the best yet.  Still, it's not worth $2400 bucks
    without modems, serial controllers and printers with controllers.
                                                
      Mikie?

    Having observed that my note in the Apple Macintosh conference has
    been mysteriously re-posted here along with derogatory comments,
    I suppose I should make some token statement about having no
    particular technical admiration of any of these home machines.
    
    I *am* interested in the marketing and long-range development of
    microcomputers, and frequently lurk among fanatics and true believers
    in a variety of forums -- including the electronic ones -- to
    satisfy my curiosity.
    
    I regard the Apple IIgs as interesting because it is a remarkably
    creative solution to the problem of an obsolete architecture --
    something nobody else, including Digital itself, has managed to pull
    off yet. 
    
    I left in the nonsense because I thought it was funny.  I can
    assure you it was *much* worse in the unedited transcript.  And
    I'm shocked that you haven't made any snide remarks about
    Sculley's hassles with the HP!  After all, wasn't that what
    the Apple IIc and its miserable LCD screen was for?  Considering
    that it cost me $6.50/hour to listen to this stuff -- be
    merciful!  Hell, I had to do *something* with the transcript...
    
    However, I'll not have you humorless folks implying that I am
    some sort of fruit worshipper.
    
    Pat Hardy
    Personal Computer Systems Group (the VAXmate/PCSA people)